737: Take-off without flaps?
Bernie Gracy, Jr.
In September 1993, I was on a USAir 737-200 departing from Bradley
International to BWI. When it was announced that we were number 1 for
takeoff and the engines were throttling up, I noticed the flaps weren't
down. I alerted the flight attendant, who alerted the captain via the
cabin phone, who then put down the flaps as we began to roll down the
runway!
Can a 737 take off without flaps down? The captain claimed we were in no
danger. What is proper procedure? Aren't the flaps supposed to come down
after pushback and engine start but before reaching the taxiway?
Thanks for your help. This has weighed heavily on my mind for 3 years.
Bernie Gracy
Reid Fairburn
At 03:36 AM 11/23/96, you wrote:
>In September 1993, I was on a USAir 737-200 departing from Bradley
>International to BWI. When it was announced that we were number 1 for
>takeoff and the engines were throttling up, I noticed the flaps weren't
>down. I alerted the flight attendant, who alerted the captain via the
>cabin phone, who then put down the flaps as we began to roll down the
>runway!
>
>Can a 737 take off without flaps down? The captain claimed we were in no
>danger. What is proper procedure? Aren't the flaps supposed to come down
>after pushback and engine start but before reaching the taxiway?
=====>Bernie: It is common for the 737-200 to take off with a small Flaps
1 setting but uncommon for a flaps up takeoff. The pilot would have become
aware of the flaps being up when he advanced the throttles as it should have
sounded a horn in the cockpit...at which time he could safely lower the
flaps. If he had launched the airplane into the air without flaps, it would
probably not leave the ground until a higher than normal speed and the pilot
could have nursed it along without much trouble...from takeoff to climb. I
think you made a good catch...it pays to be observant!
Just for your information...pilots are creatures of habit and when something
interupts a habit pattern that which was changed may not be thought about
again without some kind of special prompt. Normal procedures call for the
flaps to be lowered during the taxi out for takeoff as you suggested. If
there was an interuption for a radio call or something else...they may have
passed this step up. Most airplanes have a "Takeoff Warning" feature that
advises the pilot when he advances the thrust for takeoff that flaps are not
set correctly, brakes may be on, elevator trim is not set right, or the
spoilers are up. These are all easily corrected on the spot at the time.
Fly in peace!
Reid Fairburn
Creative Kingdom, Inc.
cr_king@cr_king.seanet.com
206-946-4815
Mark E. Ingram
On 23 Nov 1996, Bernie Gracy, Jr. wrote:
> Can a 737 take off without flaps down?
Yes, and years ago I knew someone who claimed to have done so -
inadvertently, but with the mistake having been discovered before a
premature rotation and lift-off (for the no-flap condition) was made. A
hip-shot, "on-the-fly" additive was made to the Vr and V2 speeds, to
compensate for the lower-than-standard lift provided by a clean wing - and
fortunately it worked out just fine.
> The captain claimed we were in no danger.
A bit of a stretch, cf. the Delta 727 takeoff accident at DFW. However,
the 737 may be more tolerant under such circumstances, and of course the
takeoff warning system *should* have alerted the crew to the mis-
configuration (this system failed due to switch misadjustment in the DFW
accident).
> What is proper procedure?
There is no *proper* procedure, as far as I know - except perhaps for use
by test pilots at Boeing.
> Aren't the flaps supposed to come down
> after pushback and engine start but before reaching the taxiway?
The flaps are supposed to be manually *put* into the takeoff position, by
the First Officer, normally right after engine start, but sometimes this
is delayed due to ice or snow, or even ramp congestion. In either case,
most operators' procedures call for *two* checks of flap position, once
when they are actually moved, and again during a pre-takeoff confirmation
of critical settings.
If the Delta flight had had on board an alert "flap-watcher" like
yourself, the accident very well may have been prevented.
Mark E. Ingram
Ma...@Mo-Net.Com (also min...@mail.orion.org)
Joe J. Budion, IV
Well,
Probaly, but I would rather take off with flaps down, It get you up in
the air faster, and if you are on a short runway, that is a necessaty.
What do others think?
Joe
Our FedEx MD-11 was taking off from Memphis, TN (MEM) with a full load
of cargo from the FedEx nightly sort, when "Bernie Gracy, Jr."
<bgr...@worldnet.att.net> keyed the mic and said:
>Can a 737 take off without flaps down? The captain claimed we were in no
>danger. What is proper procedure? Aren't the flaps supposed to come down
>after pushback and engine start but before reaching the taxiway?
--
Joe J. Budion, IV
Sylvania, OH 43560 USA
JJB...@HOTMAIL.COM
Cole Pierce
Lest we unnecessarily scare a 'knowledgeable' passenger about no-flap
take-offs, you should understand that normal procedures may call for
a no-flap or minimum flap setting take-off.
The MD-80 has a standard setting of 4 degrees, although 11 is normal.
I have not visually examined a 4 degree setting, but I note slightly
drooped flaps on early-morning walkarounds, and I imagine it would be
difficult from a cabin window to tell the difference between this
minimal flap setting and zero.
BTW, the normal setting for the A-300 Airbus is zero degrees.
gun one
Andrew Goldfinger
In article <airliners...@ohare.Chicago.COM> Mark E. Ingram,
ma...@mickey.mo-net.com writes:
>If the Delta flight had had on board an alert "flap-watcher" like
>yourself, the accident very well may have been prevented.
Which brings up a thought I have had for some time. There are
significant conditions (such as no-flaps, asymmetric slats or ice on the
wings) that are visible from the cabin. In the cabin, there are trained
professionals -- the flight attendents. Why not require the flight
attendents to verify wing conditions before take off, and call the flight
deck if anomolies are found?
Paul Kearney
"Bernie Gracy, Jr." <bgr...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
: In September 1993, I was on a USAir 737-200 departing from Bradley
: International to BWI. When it was announced that we were number 1 for
: takeoff and the engines were throttling up, I noticed the flaps weren't
: down. I alerted the flight attendant, who alerted the captain via the
: cabin phone, who then put down the flaps as we began to roll down the
: runway!
: Can a 737 take off without flaps down? The captain claimed we were in no
: danger. What is proper procedure? Aren't the flaps supposed to come down
: after pushback and engine start but before reaching the taxiway?
Most aircraft should "tell" the pilots that the flaps are not out far enough
when the pilots shove the throttles forward.
(Assuming the bleeper is also working )
If the pilot tries to take off with say less-than-5-degrees ( the limit
isnt certain bu I think 5 is the minimum it will allow for a take off )
of flaps and shoves the throttles forward past a magical angle where it can
be safely assumed that the pilot wants to take off then the bleeper
should go off which is a intermittent 'horn' .
Physically , an aircraft can take off with no-flaps as long as you have plenty
of runway and plenty of noise-tolerant people living near the airport.
There are graphs used to figure these things out , which plot the power
required against weight-of-aircraft / length-of-runway / slope-of-runway
/ flaps needed/wanted and a load of othe rothings.... if you can stick your
pencil inside the "safe area" then your OK otherwise start losing
cargo/fuel/passengers or wait for a stronger wind !
Ken.E...@mhadf.production.compuserve.com
I have flown out of Fallon NAS in Nevada a number of times in
DC9's. Fallon is at 3934 ft and when the temp is above 110f (very
common in the summer, sometimes as high as 125F) Normal procedure
is a very long roll with the flaps always up. I have seen airforce
737 navigation trainers take off there too, also with flaps up.
Ken Ehlers, PA-C
<103441.3241>
Larry Stone
In article <airliners...@ohare.Chicago.COM>, "Bernie Gracy, Jr."
<bgr...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Can a 737 take off without flaps down? The captain claimed we were in no
>danger. What is proper procedure? Aren't the flaps supposed to come down
>after pushback and engine start but before reaching the taxiway?
Not directly to the point but worth pointing out: most light planes do not
use flaps for takeoff except in some short field conditions. When I'm
flying a plane like a Piper Warrior, I have flaps on the checklist but
it's to make sure they're up. Takeoff flaps do reduce ground roll and the
distance required to reach a given altitude but also reduce rate of climb
making it take longer to reach a given altitude. Given adequate runway and
no obstructions, your goal is to maximize rate of climb so that if
something happens, you're as high as possible.
--
-- Larry Stone --- lst...@interserve.com
http://www.interserve.com/~lstone/
Belmont, CA, USA
My opinions, not United's.
John Knopp
Andrew Goldfinger <Andy.Go...@jhuapl.edu> wrote:
>Which brings up a thought I have had for some time. There are
>significant conditions (such as no-flaps, asymmetric slats or ice on the
>wings) that are visible from the cabin. In the cabin, there are trained
>professionals -- the flight attendents. Why not require the flight
>attendents to verify wing conditions before take off, and call the flight
>deck if anomolies are found?
Flight attendants are not currently trained to make any kind of
judgement about any of the factors you mention. Their main function
is to get you out if the need arises. Of course, if they see or hear
something that seems "out of the ordinary" they need to check with the
cockpit but that's typically as far as it goes.
Unfortunately, most flight attendants would be unable to differentiate
a flap from a slat and until they are properly trained having them
"verify wing conditions" is not a good idea.
Of course, there are exceptions. Some F/As have their licenses and/or
other formal training or are simply "into" airplanes; those extra eyes
and ears are an invaluable asset to the cockpit crew but,
unfortunately, those folks are in the minority in the F/A corps.
-
John Knopp
j...@apk.net
Mark E. Ingram
On 1 Dec 1996, Cole Pierce wrote:
> Lest we unnecessarily scare a 'knowledgeable' passenger about no-flap
> take-offs, you should understand that normal procedures may call for
> a no-flap or minimum flap setting take-off.
Definitely, there is no need for undue alarm. However, with very few
exceptions, "no flaps" on takeoff refers to *trailing edge* flaps, the
exact position of which can indeed be difficult to ascertain from the
cabin.
*Most* modern aiprlanes, even during a "zero" flap takeoff, will have
leading edge devices (LED's) extended. If these are hanging down
(symmetrically from wing-to-wing), then the aircraft can probably get off
the ground without difficulty. (Of course, the DC-9 Dash 10 and a few
other early airliners - the Fokker F-28? - have no LED's at all, so don't
cry wolf on one of those!)
> BTW, the normal setting for the A-300 Airbus is zero degrees.
Yes, but the LED's will always be extended.
Andrew Goldfinger
So -- if you are in a commercial jet and arrive at the runway with the
flaps not deployed, what should you do? Call for the flight attendent as
urgently as you can, or sit back and do nothing?
Simon Craig
>*Most* modern aiprlanes, even during a "zero" flap takeoff, will have
>leading edge devices (LED's) extended. If these are hanging down
>(symmetrically from wing-to-wing), then the aircraft can probably get off
>the ground without difficulty. (Of course, the DC-9 Dash 10 and a few
>other early airliners - the Fokker F-28? - have no LED's at all, so don't
>cry wolf on one of those!)
>
>> BTW, the normal setting for the A-300 Airbus is zero degrees.
>
>Yes, but the LED's will always be extended.
An excellent point. The 767 minimum setting is "1 unit" but this too is
l/e slats extended to the take-off range and t/e flaps retracted. I've
never seen one take off like this, but we are taught that this is the
minimum.
Regards,
--
Simon Craig
--- I complained because I had no PowerMac; then I met a man who used
Windows." - Cloyce Sutton
Alan Chesnutt
In article <airliners...@ohare.Chicago.COM>,
Ken.E...@mhadf.production.compuserve.com, PA-C
<10344...@CompuServe.COM> wrote:
As a 737 pilot, I feel it is necessary to state that the approved flap
settings for takeoff in the Boeing 737 series -100, -200 and -300 (the
types I fly) are 1,2,5,10 and 15 degrees, all of which extend the leading
edge devices (or LEDs) to either an intermediate- or fully-extended
position. If you or anyone else has seen one of these models take off
without any LEDs and/or flaps extended you were witnessing an accident or
incident in progress. There are no approved procedures, to my knowledge,
that allow a no-flap takeoff in the 737, although from the cabin it may
have appeared as though flaps were not extended due to the small amount of
extension that occurs with a flaps 1 setting. There is a takeoff
configuration warning horn that should sound if either thrust lever is
advanced beyond approximately 30 degrees of travel without flaps set to
any of the aforementioned settings.
There are jet aircraft that have wings with no LEDs, specifically the -10
series of DC9s. I'm sure there are others as well. Merry Christmas to all,
and to all a good night.
--
I thought it was the heavy drinking, the
late hours, the barking mad women, the lying around in bed
reading cheap spy novels and eating Nescafe out of the jar
with a spoon. But no, it was all because of Eagle.
Reid Fairburn
This is a very hard call to make. Personally, I would question the flap
position based on the type airplane and runway length/altitude...but not
everyone can make quick guesses on this. If there is a doubt in your
mind, ask the flight attendant. I would wait though until you were sure
that the airplane was taking the runway for takeoff.
I suspect that this situation is going to be a rare occurrence and would
not waste too much sleep over it.
Reid Fairburn
Creative Kingdom, Inc.
cr_king@cr_king.seanet.com
206-946-9455/4815
ifly
The rotation speed of a 737 with the flaps up would be in the order of
165 to 195 kts, depending on the model, wing, and weight of the A/C.
They don`t sop much need flaps as the Leading edge devices. Atakeoff
without flaps would be possible, but really hairy, and you`d need a very
long runway for accelerate stop if the airplane was heavy. I posted a
note about one 737 I knew of that possibly took off without flaps and
LED`s and survived, though it scraped the tail, and was very badly
damaged, but the post didn`t seem to make it. I say the airplane "may"
have taken off without flaps, because the crew was so scared after, they
didn`t remember what happened, or if they retracted the flaps themselves
afterwards. After that incident, we visually checked LED`s before each
flight.
737`s often take off with 1 degree of flap out. They could look like
they`re up to someone not familiar with type.
J Morris
Michael Hore
From: sim...@ozemail.com.au (Simon Craig) writes:
>>Yes, but the LED's will always be extended.
>
>An excellent point. The 767 minimum setting is "1 unit" but this too is
>l/e slats extended to the take-off range and t/e flaps retracted. I've
>never seen one take off like this, but we are taught that this is the
>minimum.
I've seen it once - an Air New Zealand 767-300. The runway was 34L at
Sydney which is 39xx m long - although the takeoff run wasn't unusually
long. I guess it was well under max t/o weight.
Incidentally, I've never seen an A300 use the "zero degrees" (trailing
edge flaps retracted) setting in this part of the world - maybe it's
just not normally done by Qantas.
While I'm here, last year I did see a 747-400 of a very prominent
carrier (not Qantas) actually "attempt" a completely flapless takeoff
- presumably the warning alarm sounded as the throttles were advanced,
since the a/c came to a very hasty stop after rolling about 50
metres, and began to extend the flaps. They advised the tower that
they'd be holding position for 2 minutes. They didn't mention why (!).
Fortunately there wasn't anybody on late final, as they wouldn't have
been particularly amused. Once the flaps were at the normal 20 deg,
they reported ready and departed normally. As someone said, I guess
if you're distracted you can miss a checklist item - or maybe there
was a check pilot making a deliberate mistake?
Cheers, Mike.
----------------------------------------------------------
Mike Hore mi...@zeta.org.au
----------------------------------------------------------
Chris Hall
In article <airliners...@ohare.Chicago.COM>, Andrew Goldfinger
<Andy.Go...@jhuapl.edu> writes
>So -- if you are in a commercial jet and arrive at the runway with the
>flaps not deployed, what should you do? Call for the flight attendent as
>urgently as you can, or sit back and do nothing?
>
crew if a take off is attempted in the wrong configuration.
Not all modern aircraft require flaps for T/O.
--
Chris Hall
John Clear
In article <airliners...@ohare.Chicago.COM>,
Michael Hore <mi...@zeta.org.au> wrote:
>While I'm here, last year I did see a 747-400 of a very prominent
>carrier (not Qantas) actually "attempt" a completely flapless takeoff
>- presumably the warning alarm sounded as the throttles were advanced,
>since the a/c came to a very hasty stop after rolling about 50
>metres, and began to extend the flaps. They advised the tower that
>they'd be holding position for 2 minutes. They didn't mention why (!).
Since you mention a very hasty stop, they probably needed time for
the brakes to cool down. There are charts listing how quickly the
brakes cool under different circumstances. If the wheels are retracted
before the brakes are properly cooled, the tires may deflate or explode,
either of which isn't recommended.
John
--
John Clear - j...@panix.com PP-ASEL 1Lt, CAP-CAWG http://www.panix.com/~jac
"They're all lawyers, and think that the laws of physics can be amended with
a voice vote." -- Mary Shafer (sha...@ursa-major.spdcc.com) on Politicians
Art Intemann
Andrew Goldfinger wrote:
>
> So -- if you are in a commercial jet and arrive at the runway with the
> flaps not deployed, what should you do? Call for the flight attendent as
> urgently as you can, or sit back and do nothing?
Sit back and do nothing.
Some days you eat the bear.
Some days the bear eats you...
As soon as the throttles are advanced for takeoff, a warning horn
will alert the crew if the flaps are not in a takeoff position.
It is really tough to take off with the warning horn blaring....
Of course, it could be a dark and stormy night,
and maybe the warning horn is not working properly,
and perhaps the crew is 12 hours into a day the government
now suggests could be as long as 14 or 16 hours and still be safe.
And they might have forgotten to start one of the engines, giving
a huge yaw problem on the initial take off roll, due to an effort
to save money at their upstart carrier.
The permutations are mind boggling....
ARt
TUKANO
What about the possibility to take off with full flaps setting on the
Boeing 737? Is it possible, and is there an aural warning as well?
I know that the climb and acceleration after rotation (1st and 2nd
segment) will probably be the challenge, but it should be feasible at
MLW, because it is a bit like for a go around...
Thanks for your comment,
Tukano.
mailto:immo...@sp.zrz.tu-berlin.de
ifly
There was a 747 (Lufty, I think) in Africa in about 1978 if I recall
correctly, that took off without LED`s deployed and crashed as a result.
I don`t remember the details of why they weren`t deployed, presumably the
signal from the TE flaps wasn`t working, and the crew missed the LED`s in
the before To checks. Perhaps someone here knows.
J Morris
Ray Clawson
As a result of the NW Detroit accident, most airlines have changed
their taxi checklist to include a the phrase "Flaps 15(or whatever),
Taxi checklist". This was in response to a recommedation by the NTSB
to provide a "key" to lower the flaps for takeoff. The NW crew was
distracted by a runway change and never ran the taxi check. By the
time they were done with recomputing takeoff performance for the new
runway, they had pasted the point where the taxi checklist is called
for. As a result, the flaps were never set. I think this change is a
good idea. Trying to takeoff with flaps set has happened to all of us
and I believe the change to checklist procedure works.
Ray Clawson
WARNING: The return email address field has been altered to
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John M. Hunt
ifly <if...@indigo.ie> wrote:
>There was a 747 (Lufty, I think) in Africa in about 1978 if I recall
>correctly, that took off without LED`s deployed and crashed as a result.
To the very large number of readers of this group who don't subscribe
to rec.sports.soccer, a bit of translation is required. "Lufty"
presumably is Lufthansa. For some unimaginable reason virtually
everyone in the otherwise gloriously literate UK and the Republic of
Ireland insist on using slang expressions for every third word.
-
-
John M. Hunt
john...@ipa.net