Meteor Scatter Questions

[Michael Druzynski]

Hello Everyone,

I am just trying to get started with Radio Astronomy. I have been doing Astrophotography for a decade or so and I want to expand my horizons and also have something to do when it is cloudy! I received my Technicians License about 12 years ago, and never really did anything with it because I was overwhelmed with the amount of information out there. 2 Years ago, I built an antenna and was getting data from the NOAA satellites and I had a lot of fun with that. I have a few projects in mind that I want to continue with, and I have been trying to gather some gear so I can figure all of this out. My first project that I want to tackle is Meteor Scatter. It seems like a good project that I could set up and just monitor for a while. I purchased a Diamond Antenna A144S5, which should be good for 144-148MHz just to start out with because that is what I found online as a good starting point, which I am now realizing may have been a mistake. Here is where I get confused (Or maybe I have been confused this whole time). I am in Rochester, NY and I am trying to find a good station/beacon to use. I know that there are some TV Stations in Canada that can be used, but the information is very sparse, old and I am not sure what stations are still in use or not because everything I find is very vague. I was able to find some information in a PDF on LiveMeteors.com, about CHBX-TV in Canada. Looks like they are at 55.25MHz but I am not sure if it is still in use or not. A lot of stations were taken down in 2021 that I could see. Most of the posts I have found online refer to GRAVES in the UK, which is not of any use here. I guess I am just looking for a bit of a cheat sheet just to accelerate this process so I can start learning a little faster and not hit so many basic roadblocks. I have been researching this for a while, and there is honestly so much information out there, that it is difficult to sort through and process. I have gone through a lot of content on the SARA website as well. If I ended up purchasing the wrong antenna and have to end up building one, that is perfectly fine as well. It would be much appreciated if someone would be able to point me in the right direction for a frequency to monitor and a good antenna design to use. Sorry for the basic questions, but I have to start somewhere.

Thank you!

[Alex P]

Hello Michael,

Some more material for you to browse.

https://github.com/AP-HLine-3D/HLine3D

Alex Pettit

[Whitham Reeve]

Michael - These are specifically about meteor trail reflections in the HF band but you may find them interesting: https://reeve.com/RadioScience/Radio%20Astronomy%20Publications/Articles_Papers.htm#Meteor_Trail_Reflections_and_Other_Interesting_Spectra

Whit

[Mike Otte]

Hello Michael,

Meteor  forward scatter is a great way to count meteors. i have been doing it for over 25 years.

Check out:  https://www.rmob.org/

On this site are hourly reports of meteor counts from observers around the world. 

Generally low VHF frequencies are better.  TV frequencies are more powerful.  I use Canadian channel 2 at 55.239690 Mhz usb.  There are channel 3 and 4 freqs too. TV allotted freq are   XX.250 but the mixed them slightly at XX.240 and XX.260 Mhz.    Some people are using the Digital carrier at 54.310 but it is weaker.

Antennas, as you will see on the  rmob website vary widely from dipoles to yagis. The rule is not to receive the direct carrier but only the reflected carrier. So keep the antenna low and pointed somewhere in the sky. mine is pointed south at 45 deg from vertical.  Don't point them toward the transmitting station unless your really far away..

To receive the meteor reflection i use a SDR tuned slightly below the transmitting freq because i have it set for usb. So you will get a tone (ping) when you detect the meteor.  SDR s are not real sensitive so i use a tv preamplifier ( mine plugs into a usb port) to help the signal strength.   Then in the PC i use VBcable to link the audio to the Spectrum lab software.    In Spectrum Lab (DH7ly?)you can write a script to count the meteors automatically.  These counts can then be reported to rmob.org using Color Spectrogramme software and you will be one of the world wide observers.

Meteors vary through the day(diurnal) and are most abundant at sun rise and lowest at 6pm local sunset.

This is just the tip of meteor hunting.  I would be happy to answer your questions.

73

Mike Otte  w9ys

[Michael Druzynski]

Great, thank you everyone for the awesome responses. I have a lot more research to do!

--
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Society of Amateur Radio Astronomers" group.
To post to this group, send email to sara...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
sara-list-...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/sara-list?hl=en
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Society of Amateur Radio Astronomers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sara-list+...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/fba83546-99c2-4828-824c-bf81fc99306en%40googlegroups.com.

[James Morris]

If you are in range of Mobile, AL, N4WLO runs MS beacons on 6m and 10m.

See:

https://groups.io/g/MeteorScatterChatter/topic/106544653

Otherwise, you could put up a 6m Moxon or small beam and monitor for MSK144 traffic with WSJT-X (best is usually in the early hours of the morning during meteor showers, but there is usually some activity every day).

144 MHz is not good for beginners.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/CA%2BAx6i7DN%2BstDKNXYU-_O7H%3DCRjSnkqqTRHqu_VEyUh-gdvZqg%40mail.gmail.com.

--

James Morris W7TXT

https://w7txt.net/

[Martin Pepe]

Michael,

   Have you tried this site for Canadian Provinces ?

     >> https://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/page?page=provs

Where are you in Rochester ?

Lived there for 45+ years, & moved (back) to Buffalo when I retired,

 since that's where I'm originally from.

     WNY has more cloudy days than Seattle !

Are / were you a member of;

 ASRAS [ https://www.rochesterastronomy.org/ ]   or RaRa [ https://rochesterham.org/default.htm ] ?

I'm presently working on a Solar RT to study the RF signature of Sunspots,

my RIT team just had our 'first light' last month {Jan '25}

Sincerely,

Martin Pepe

Cloudy Skies ? Switch to a LONGER Wavelength !

Adjunct Faculty, Multidisciplinary Senior Design Program

Kate Gleason College of Engineering

Rochester Institute of Technology

70 Lomb Memorial Drive

Rochester, N.Y. 14623

(585) 298-0246 (c)   KE2DSD

mxp...@g.rit.edu

mjpa...@gmail.com

--

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Society of Amateur Radio Astronomers" group.
To post to this group, send email to sara...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
sara-list-...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/sara-list?hl=en
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Society of Amateur Radio Astronomers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sara-list+...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/8060d0e7-2416-49a9-8e00-abc7ebca97ccn%40googlegroups.com.

[Michael Druzynski]

Great, thank you! 

James: I got that 144MHz antenna when I started researching and realized it probably wasn't the best idea. I'm sure I'll be able to use it down the road, but I'll definitely look into 6m.

Martin: I am in Churchville, and the skies are relatively dark. I have been a member of ASRAS for a while. I'm not very active, but I do post my Astrophotography images when I can. Cloudy skies are one of the main reasons that I want to start getting into Radio Astronomy. We have so many cloudy nights that I don't get as much telescope time as I would like, but I still want to observe however I can.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/CAOv3Aj7Q5J5Et%3DAC6Oy2bzu-DBj4OuKfYphHTEK0kDwQOaLbVA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Mike Otte]

Here is a list of Canadian TV and shows some analog channels

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_television_stations_in_Canada

[Martin Pepe]

Mike & team,

Check out the Radio Astro section of the ASRAS website, it's just been upgraded to a new service w Wordpress,

now that we have a stable platform we can update all the RT pages accordingly.

 https://www.rochesterastronomy.org/category/radio-astronomy/

There are three major RT projects ongoing in WNY.

1) The Solar RT - ART Autonomous Radio Telescope, just had its 'first light' mid Jan '25.

    https://www.rochesterastronomy.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/ART_Solar_RT_20965_L_Talk_2025Feb22.mp4

2) A 1.42 GHz Folded Hybrid 'Cantenna' RT, in process, HW finished, starting on SW.

3) A Meteor Detection RT using Passive Reflection from FM stations, Concept just started.

 We are also starting a local (WNY) ARA Sig (Amateur Radio Astronomy Special Interest Group.

Purpose is to tie together the Optical Astronomy Clubs & The local Ham Radio Clubs,

 for local RT development given our lovely 'transparent' weather { NOT ]   :-(

Sincerely,

Marty Pepe

Cloudy Skies ? Switch to a LONGER Wavelength !

Adjunct Faculty, Multidisciplinary Senior Design Program

Kate Gleason College of Engineering

Rochester Institute of Technology

70 Lomb Memorial Drive

Rochester, N.Y. 14623

(585) 298-0246 (c)   KE2DSD

mxp...@g.rit.edu

mjpa...@gmail.com

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/CA%2BAx6i6dfkzxmROeG9P2HbS4Gm6sEpuYa9nK0NMT0qRsj84mkg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Colin Nichols]

We too have a cloud problem in the UK so I was wondering if I could monitor the transmission from the GRaVES aerial using the site http://websdr.housing.salleurl.edu:8901/ . This would save me having to build my own aerial for which i have doubts that I can get it high enough. I will need to buy a RTL-SDR for my raspberry pi 3.

Regards

Colin Nichols

[Mike Otte]

Colin,

Using the online sdr, you may be able to hear and see a couple radio meteors. Right now is the slow spot in the diurnal cycle of the day. You should listen in the morning and see  many.

But you don't need GRAVES anymore.  The UK has its own continuous beacon.  Checkout:  https://ukmeteorbeacon.org/Home

There is all kinds of help there and even building your own dipole for receiving.

BAA  has a radio section too.

GL

73

Mike w9ys

Virus-free.www.avast.com

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/1e121f50-a90c-4f1d-8bcc-6d7524c59ea5n%40googlegroups.com.

--

Mike Otte W9YS

[Mike Otte]

I forgot to mention. You don't necessarily want you antenna high.  My beam's reflector is on the ground.  When demonstrating at a star party my dipole is 3ft off the ground.

Mike

Virus-free.www.avast.com

--

Mike Otte W9YS

[Andrew Thornett]

Where are you based Colin? I am in Lichfield just north of Birmingham and am successfully using 143.048MHz from a Moxon at 3m height pointed roughly southeast, a FunCube Pro Dongle, and Spectrum Lab with conditional action script although the cutoffs on that needed tweaking and I can share my script with you of you want.

The Moxon is on an ex military Clansman carbon fibre pole. I previously had it on steel pole from a trampoline and I couldn't pick up anything at that time - I don't know of pole had anything to do with it.

Quite high quality coax NOT RG58 to minimise loss.

Mini PC i5 on my log cabin in garden. Lots of local RFI and houses.

Andy

Sent from Outlook for Android

---

From: sara...@googlegroups.com <sara...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Colin Nichols <coli...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, 22 February 2025 17:46:48
To: Society of Amateur Radio Astronomers <sara...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [SARA] Meteor Scatter Questions

 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/1e121f50-a90c-4f1d-8bcc-6d7524c59ea5n%40googlegroups.com.

[Michael Druzynski]

Hello Everyone,

So I am looking at 2 different antennas currently to start out with. I looked at a few designs to build, and I determined that I should just buy one so I know at least one part of my system works. Also, with the price of all the parts and aluminum tubing, it is almost the same amount to buy. Here are the 2 that I came up with. I actually ordered the A502HB because it is smaller, but it is on backorder so I can still cancel it if needed. Is there one that I should get over the other, or are there any other recommendations in that price range?

https://diamondantenna.net/a502hb.html

https://www.cometantenna.com/product/comet-ca-52hb4/

Thank you!

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/LO2P265MB5231D5FA4726939BCF8CD103FFC62%40LO2P265MB5231.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM.

[Mike Otte]

Michael,

They both would work but i would buy the Comet 4 el yagi. it has 2 uses.

1) it would give you more sensitivity.  Even TV reflections are relatively weak   If you are going to use a SDR receiver also expect to include a TV antenna pre-amplifier. then the SDR gain does not have to be on the highest value.

2) The 4 el yagi will give you directivity.  Remember you are NOT receiving the direct TV signal but are receiving a reflection.  So aim it away from the TV station and 70 miles up where the meteors burn up.   When the WWII army guys were playing after the war they would put it at 90 deg to the direction of the main beam.  Also this will give you the longest burn time. Change direction until you get rid of the direct signal.  Also remember this is not ham radio (mount it High) so mount it low!

GL

73

Mike w9ys

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/CA%2BAx6i7ad7-cnxcaH7%3DrwyG0iwCpZMx5AnkaB_hkDfSG15gHGQ%40mail.gmail.com.

--

Mike Otte W9YS

[Michael Druzynski]

Great, thanks for all the info Mike! I also found this one that is a few feet thinner. It will be easier to handle and maneuver a 9.8'x6.8' antenna, than a 10.5'x10' antenna. Would it be ok or is the 4th element really going to make that much of a difference?

https://www.andradsupply.com/sy503.php

Just want to make sure I have the best chance for a good start. Thank you!

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/CA%2BG65tRVZo9386XXZUhPxgMw0ifn%3DAmWH3X7HdtqB3Agz4jUTw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Mike Otte]

Michael,

" is the 4th element really going to make that much of a difference?"

The simple answer from the spec sheets is 2dbi.

On rmob.org , each of the observers give some information about their stations including antennas and frequencies observed.

The are a lot of 3 element yagis.   Compare the quality of their observations with  dipoles and/or  more element yagis.  Certainly this is only one factor.

How do you compare quality of observations?  A big factor is a strong diurnal.  This is the lowest counts to the highest counts of the day.  The highest counts should be at sunrise for that observing site.  the difference should be easily notable( lots of counts difference between low and high) else you are not getting a good sampling. 

On the other hand if you don't have much room and because of that you can't play with the direction then stay with the simpliest/smallest  you can hide in the weeds.

GL

73

Mike w9ys

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/CA%2BAx6i5j60OwnFRDEXFz0FND1uFwKU5654hAFPXDcBZH9epUdw%40mail.gmail.com.

--

Mike Otte W9YS

[Michael Druzynski]

That makes a lot of sense, thanks again Mike! That website does have a lot of data to sort through.

The specs for the 3 element Yagi were wrong on the website I was looking at earlier. When I was comparing specs, I thought they were both around 10dBi. I looked closer at the manufacturer's website just now and I see that it is actually 8.5dBi. Hopefully I won't have any more questions for a while!

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/CA%2BG65tT-V5PQmJMZ6T0i2-68_x-mpKsk0ufEPj3M2LeCEQ2Vrg%40mail.gmail.com.