What I ended up doing was to compute the complex cross-power between H
and V like so:
power = avg(H(I)*V(I) + H(Q)*V(Q))
This has the effect (like in a well-balanced correlation interferometer)
of tending towards zero when there's no coherent input
between the polarizations. I think this is correct.
Comments?
--
Marcus Leech
Principal Investigator, Shirleys Bay Radio Astronomy Consortium
http://www.sbrac.org
without an input signal, this will be zero, provided that your LNA's noises
are uncorrelated. They could be a little correlated however, because of
antenna crosstalk, power supply noise etc.
The problem is, that when you DO have an incoming signal, correlation is not
certain.
Most natural sources are very weakly polarized, and won't give you much
correlation.
Even for a fully polarized signal, if it happens to be so polarized, to be
matched to one of your polarizations and orthogonal to the other, you will
have no correlation (no signal in the second antenna!)
Also, if you only use the real part of the correlation (your formula), if the
signal gives you a 90 degree phase shift between channels (circ pol on two
lin chans), your output will be zero.
What I think you could do is:
1. for weakly polarized natural sources, just make two total power
(radiometer) channels and add their outputs. This will give you 1.5dB of
sensitivity boost (twice the bandwidth).
2. make a real polarization analyzer. Even a non-calibrated one would give you
discrimination against strongly polarized signals (QRM, SETI).
To measure the weak polarization of natural sources, you would have to make a
calibrated polarimeter.
Marko Cebokli
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokes_parameters
Matt
-------------- Original message from "Marcus D. Leech" <mar...@propulsionpolymers.com>: --------------
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-------------- Original message from "Matt Ettus" <boys...@gmail.com>: --------------
>
> Polarization is analyzed with the Stokes parameters:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokes_parameters
>
> Matt
>
> On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 8:39 PM, Marcus D. Leech
> wrote:
> >
> > Since we'll be working with a dual-polarization feed system, I decided
> > that it was time to upgrade the RA receiver code
> > to handle this.
> >
> > What I ended up doing was to compute the complex cross-power between H
> > and V like so:
> >
> > power = avg(H(I)*V(I) + H(Q)*V(Q))
> >
> > This has the effect (like in a well-balanced correlation interferometer)
> > of tending towards zero when there's no coherent input
> > between the polarizations. I think this is correct.
> >
> > Comments?
> >
> > --
> > Marcus Leech
> > Principal Investigator, Shirleys Bay Radio Astronomy Consortium
> > http://www.sbrac.org
> >
> >
> > >
> >
>
IIR_FILTER { H(I)*H(I) + H(Q)*H(Q) +V(I)*V(I) + V(Q)*V(Q) }
By changing to 8-bit samples across the USB bus, I can do both channels
at 8Mhz, giving me 16Mhz bandwidth into
the radiometer. Sweet!
Cheers
On the contrary, stokes parameters is in fact
what comes out of the polarimeter back-ends on
radioastronomy.
Old times analog versions use mixers, delays sums and subtractions
to compute the various stokes parameters.
Modern ones use FPGA's to compute the four stokes
parameters and integrate data.
Usually the antenna feed back section separates
RHCP and LHCP and feed two independent
receivers that end up in a polarimetric correlator
which outputs are the first 3 (or the full 4)
stokes parameters.
Circular polarization is largely preferable over V and H
as gain asymmetries and gain drifts will affect
both the V and H components the same way.
The polarized radiation is only a small fraction of the
energy received, only about 1%, so using V and H one
can have far more instrumental errors than with CP,
I would say that V and H are not suitable. (one need
much better than 0.04dB
asymmetries to measure anything sensible using V and H
polarized antenna)
Luis Cupido
ct1dmk.
p.s.(I'm involved in the design of the fist full digital back-end
for radio-astronomy polarimetry for a 200MHz bandwidth system
(it has 4 input channels at 200Ms/s and does in real time
200Mcomputarions of the 4 stokes parameters per second and
integrate down to 1 stoke_param set per milisecond)
-------------- Original message from Luis Cupido <cup...@mail.ua.pt>: --------------
> > : --------------
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Polarization is analyzed with the Stokes parameters:
> > >
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokes_parameters
> > >
> > > Matt
> > >
> > > On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 8:39 PM, Marcus D. Leech
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Since we'll be working with a dual-polarization feed system, I
> > decided
> > > > that it was time to upgrade the RA receiver code
> > > > to handle this.
> > > >
> > > > What I ended up doing was to compute the complex cross-power
> > between H
> > > > and V like so:
> > > >
> > > > power = avg(H(I)*V(I) + H(Q)*V(Q))
> > > >
> > > > This has the effect (like in a well-balanced correlation
> > interferometer)
> > > > of tending towards zero when there's no coherent input
> > > > between the polarizations. I think this is correct.
> > > >
> > > > Comments?
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Marcus Leech
> > > > Principal Investigator, Shirleys Bay Radio Astronomy Consortium
> > > > http://www.sbrac.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > >
> >
>
> For more modest bandwidths, you don't need an FPGA, I think.
Yes, as much as your math processing power allows.
I fear however that your bandwidth*efficiency product
will be rather small as the computations for the stokes
parameters require quite a bit of multiplications and additions
prior to integration.
I presume you refer to a 100% efficiency system
that is where all samples are used and the acquisition runs
full time. (no discarded data).
Hence the bandwidth depend on how much time you need to
compute the stokes parameter and integrate.
I'm curious to know how much you can do...
> So, I have two orthogonal feed probes at 90deg to each other.
> Can I not
> convert the incoming signal
> to circular simply by phase-shifting one of them by 90deg compared to
> the other, before further
> processing?
Sure you can,
I'll say better... You must !!!
It is simply feed the V and H to a 90deg hybrid coupler
they you have RHCP and LHCP.
Luis Cupido.
ct1dmk.
P.S. When the webpage has the interesting details
I'll let you know. In the mean time I'll look for the
paper that has the polarimeter-correlator and send you.
Well... the same as in any other radiometric measurement.
The equation is always the same....
so the key is the bandwidth*efficiency product
if one decides to go below 100% eff.
> I presume you refer to a 100% efficiency system
> that is where all samples are used and the acquisition runs
> full time. (no discarded data).
The best choice of antenna polarization scheme will be
conditioned by analyzing the impact of the
most significant instrument imperfections.
Either gain or phase mismatch, common drift
differential drift or polarization
cross talk etc.
With todays technology you can have a reasonably well matched
pair of receiver chains (LNA + converter + FI etc)
never the less considering that our target is the ability to measure
an unpolarized signal with a linearly polarized component of
1% or less, the gain imbalance makes it prohibitive
to run linear frontends and receivers unless we can assure
differential imbalance changes of much less than 0.043dB for 1%
There are all the other factors to consider but I think the one
above intimidates any RF designer hi ;-)
Hence RHCP and LHCP would be the premium chioce.
Luis Cupido.
ct1dmk.
-------------- Original message from Luis Cupido <cup...@mail.ua.pt>: --------------
This is on a Pentium-D 925 processor, running at 3.0Ghz, with 2GB of
memory. Even though it's a dual-CPU system,
the entire radio stack runs inside a single thread, and thus on a
single CPU. Future versions of Gnu Radio (which is what
my stuff is based on) will provide for running parallel signal
processing paths in different threads, thus allowing you to spread
computations across multiple CPUs. I look forward greatly to this :-)
Cheers
Marcus D. Leech wrote:
> look forward greatly to this :-)
> --
> http://www.qsl.net/n1yvv
> ***********************************
> ****I'm not dead, yet!************
> ***********************************
>
> Dave Ocame, WS1ETI
> Awards Chair
> The SETILeague, Inc
> www.setileague.org
>
> Stony Creek Observatory
> FN31og
> -72.834 longitude
> 41.272 latitude
> Member: The SETILeague, Inc. and,
> The Society for Amateur Radio Astronomy (SARA) and,
> The Planetary Society
>
By the way, I'll be checking in a version of the code that turns-on
8-bit sampling, which means that on your (nearly identical to mine)
system, you should be able to do 16Msamples/sec on your single
channel. You have to crank the gain up about 15dB, but this
appears to work splendidly!
Marcus D. Leech wrote:
>
> By the way, I'll be checking in a version of the code that turns-on
> 8-bit sampling, which means that on your (nearly identical to mine)
>
Nearly identical. Except for the part where your working on a dish that
is ~ 1 bazillion times larger than mine. :)
> system, you should be able to do 16Msamples/sec on your single
> channel. You have to crank the gain up about 15dB, but this appears to work splendidly!
Can't wait to give it a whirl.
Alternatively one may do a polarizer section in
the waveguide and use the H and V probes that
will be delivering RHCP and LHCP singnals.
Your second comment as a method to obtain RHCP or LHCP
in the digital domain is fine, but fails in our
purpose of having a RHCP and LHCP in the hardware
of the receiver which is our main goal.
(like that one receiver will have H and the other
will have V, that is exactely what we are trying to
avoid in the first place)
The purpose is not to receive RHCP or LHCP
the idea is to have the RF and IF stages operating
on RHCP and LHCP, in software we will be
doing far more by having the full polarizarion info
by calculating the stokes parameters.
Luis Cupido
ct1dmk.
So, I could modify my feed to make the H and V probes "see" LHCP and
RHCP, yes?
I also made another optimization (thought of it over dinner!) that
removes two stages of post-detection filtering, and thus
frees up computrons for other processing (like stokes parameters, for
example). So I just eliminated hundreds of multiply-adds
per sample by removing two of the post-detector FIR filters. So now,
the (previously final and now only) filter operates at
the input bandwidth rate, but acts as a very long (in terms of raw
sample rate) integrator. I then follow this with a simple
"keep_one_in_n" decimator which reduces the output rate to
1sample/sec, from the up-to 8Megasamples per second on input.
Cheers
Not really, no.
The point is only to get rid of the devastating effect of
gain imbalance and differential drift since the waves are
only a few % polarized and that small fraction
is essentially linear, working it in V and H you
will never know if you are measuring the polarization in the sky
or the system differential drifts.
(since to measure 1% polarization you need imbalance changes
far below 0.04dB I'll bet that you will be measuring
nothing else but your setup drifts).
You can try to visualize the effect of system imbalances
on CP and LIN while measuring a wave with a few % linear polarization.
Or if it fails to catch your brain, you may crack the stokes matrix
by multiplying the relevant elements by an error quantity and see
where those errors affect less the Q and V parameters.
You will find that for a LIN wave if the system uses RHCP and
LHCP the Q and U parameters are much less affected than if
receiver is V and H ...
> So, I could modify my feed to make the H and V probes "see" LHCP and
> RHCP, yes?
Correct, you should have the two receive chains to work
on RHCP and LHCP, and then have the set of equations that
compute IQUV from a RHCP and LHCP signals.
Luis Cupido.
P.S. I may be out of email for a few days.
tks.
XPD yes... bad memory and bad English
I'm sorry.
You're right that is the term.
And yes the antenna sets one limit for polarization
discrimination.
The other limit is, in the case of RA, set by the
long integration time where the RX system changes affect
the polarization values measured.
No point to have a supper-duper antena if the RX
system doesn't descriminate that well over the
integration time required.
And no point also the other way around.
;-)
Luis Cupido
ct1dmk.
-------------- Original message from Luis Cupido <cup...@mail.ua.pt>: --------------
>