Cube Sats for Amateur Radio Astronomy

[Stephen Arbogast]

I know this is  different  but  what about   a  cube  sat  for  amateur radio  astronomy?  We  all   struggle   with  our  earth  based   antennas..  What about  a  cube sat   that  we could   put in space to  avoid   our  problems...   This would not  be  easy but  we  could  start with   something  easy  like Jason's high energy  particle    detector.    

Just   a  thought....  Any  ideas?

Stephen

[Andrew Thornett]

Perhaps through SARA we should all gang together, design, build and launch our own CubeSAT....

Sent from Outlook for Android

---

From: 'Stephen Arbogast' via Society of Amateur Radio Astronomers <sara...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2025 7:13:44 AM
To: Society of Amateur Radio Astronomers <sara...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [SARA] Cube Sats for Amateur Radio Astronomy

 

I know this is  different  but  what about   a  cube  sat  for  amateur radio  astronomy?  We  all   struggle   with  our  earth  based   antennas..  What about  a  cube sat   that  we could   put in space to  avoid   our  problems...   This would not  be  easy but  we  could  start with   something  easy  like Jason's high energy  particle    detector.    

Just   a  thought....  Any  ideas?

Stephen

--
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Society of Amateur Radio Astronomers" group.
To post to this group, send email to sara...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
sara-list-...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/sara-list?hl=en
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Society of Amateur Radio Astronomers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sara-list+...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/56b78ed4-12bd-404c-9350-48b19d6bb1a3n%40googlegroups.com.

[Marcus D. Leech]

On 03/05/2025 05:16, 'Andrew Thornett' via Society of Amateur Radio Astronomers wrote:

Perhaps through SARA we should all gang together, design, build and launch our own CubeSAT....

You'd have to get much further away than LEO for there to be much advantage conferred by having a single satellite "up there".
  Experiments in the past have involved pairs of satellites forming a VLBI baseline considerably larger than earth diameter.

Remember when you're in orbit, you're "line of site" to a *lot* more RFI sources that when you're sitting on the ground, which means
  getting much further out (think geostationary orbits) for 'ol daddy square-law to help you....

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/LO2P265MB52314639E7A9D5E3BAD1D3DBFF8C2%40LO2P265MB5231.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM.

[Marcus Fisher]

I joined AMSAT to try and do just this, to see via collaboration between SARA and AMSAT can we put a radio telescope(s) in space or moon for amateur community.

Interferometry using multiple small sats or bigger 6U or something on the moon or what ... that is a question for you folks that know  RA better, I've built and flown small sats just haven't been on science side

-- Marcus Fisher
Society for Amateur Radio Astronomers (SARA)
vicepresident@radio-astronomy
www.radio-astronomy.org

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/5cfcf163-c5ba-433a-8c7a-dad51b2a2420%40gmail.com.

[David Kunsman]

What radio astronomy things could one do with a cubesat?

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/CAHRLkT675GoHU3_7M8cmn326ftw_RhtBfo7s_vUKjqdxvHuv2g%40mail.gmail.com.

[Andrew Thornett]

Perhaps we could stick a muon director in one and measure the muon rate from ground to orbit and plot altitude vs flux?

Not sure what else is practical in a CubeSat from radio astronomy perspective....

Andy

Sent from Outlook for Android

---

From: sara...@googlegroups.com <sara...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of David Kunsman <dmku...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2025 5:51:48 PM
To: sara...@googlegroups.com <sara...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [SARA] Cube Sats for Amateur Radio Astronomy

 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/CAPVyUPD3eEB8ccx4GdLTa2sDYzrT3kLD5%3DKgAq7Z_n1n69DUhw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Jeff Kruth]

Not much. As a satellite engineer, I have worked with teams here at Morehead and built/flown several cubesat missions. I worked side by side with Bob Twiggs, co-inventor of the cubesat, for 10 years, before I took on the DSN station creation, DSS-17, for NASA-JPL here at MSU.

As  taught in my sat comm courses, satellites only do 2 things really: 1. Communications, & 2. Platforms for sensors. Weapons systems are ignored as supposedly illegal.

We taught cubesats to hundred of students. We built  1,2,3 and 6 U styles. Our most interesting ones were Lunar Ice Cube, launched to the moon on Artemis 1 used in the search for Lunar water Ice, and the CXBN series to measure gamma residue from the big bang (1 &2 launched, 3 in progress).

Cubesats are NOT a good idea for R-A for a multitude of reasons, starting with resource limitations, and poor orbit situations, largely from NASA secondary ride performance. And they are close to the noisy earth, as noted.

Some E-field sensors have been flown, lots of optics, radar reflectors, comm experiments, and so on. Much harder to build a WORKING cubesat that ACTUALLY operates in orbit once launched (launch is tough to survive), not only making sure that your power system actually works after waiting dormant for 6 months to a year sitting waiting for launch. And then, getting the data down through a limited bandwidth comm link, from a platform with poor antennas is another challenge. Remember, your sensor antenna has to be small and low mass, or once deployed, it becomes the tail that wags the dog. I could write a bible on the issues.

Example- no way to establish baselines for interferometry. Hell, its hard to figure out which satellite is yours after a deployment campaign like the ELANA missions provided, let alone spacing, station positional control and others. Not to mention the ever widening position of the "string of pearls" making a constellation situation difficult

Sorry, Nope, not a good idea! Three things about cubesats I told my students; 1, You can build as many as you want, some might eventually work. 2. Its very hard to get them launched, almost impossible and takes a long time, and if you miss  your launch by not being ready, go straight to the back of the line, do not pass GO. & 3. The toughest of all- It is VERY hard to get a communications channel allocation from the FCC, the hams wont allow use anymore and their channel BW is narrow anyway, making blocks of data hard to transfer.

You may argue these issues if you want, but I have been there, done that, and got the Tshirt.

Optimism will not conquer cold hard facts and the requirement of buckets of cash. Cubesats and their PPOD launchers have to pass all NASA safety requirements (just add $$$).

Cubesats are nanosats. Better bets are Microsats (more $$$ but bigger for more resources). My first Microsat launched hardware into orbit was in early 1990's

Jeff Kruth

Retired, Space Science Center, MSU, Engineer/Professor - Space Systems

Life SARA

WA3ZKR

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/CAPVyUPD3eEB8ccx4GdLTa2sDYzrT3kLD5%3DKgAq7Z_n1n69DUhw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Marcus Fisher]

All great points made, those small ones are also just fun to build too and great learning platforms for our students, as we survey the solution space those are great points when considering the 1-6Us (Jeff, you should come to the conference this summer so we can brainstorm on this).  

From a science point of view, what would folks want to study and would you rather be on the lunar surface?

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/1346110756.1021867.1746300418816%40mail.yahoo.com.

[Lester Veenstra]

CUBESAT Suggestion:

LEO transmitting near Hydrogen frequency, (Either or both), a CW signal and a narrow band limited flat white noise for antenna pattern and G/T measurements on ground antennas. Both of well defined EIRP/ power density levels.

 

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y W8YCM/6Y 6Y8LV (Reformed USNSG CTM1)

les...@veenstras.com

 

452 Stable Ln

Keyser WV 26726 USA

 

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)

GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)

 

 

Telephones:

Home:            +1-304-289-6057

US cell          +1-304-790-9192

Jamaica cell:    +1-876-456-8898

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/5cfcf163-c5ba-433a-8c7a-dad51b2a2420%40gmail.com.

[Alex P]

The 21cm band is Protected by the ITU which Specifically Prohibits Transmission in frequency range.

[Stephen Arbogast]

Yes, I know  the  difficulty and failure  rate of cube-sats but  I am optimistic   .... maybe  a magnetometer to    observe/collect data for this...   https://www.sciencealert.com/nasa-is-watching-a-huge-growing-anomaly-in-earths-magnetic-field. 

Observers in Southern   hemisphere   who can  observe    over the South Atlantic?  Would  this  be helpful to Science?  Maybe it is time  to step beyond  cube-sats?

Just  an idea.

Stephen

[Stephen Arbogast]

A  magnetometer/scintillating  muon detector...  just  thoughts............

[Jeff Kruth]

 

Will not be permitted by ANYONE worldwide let alone FCC, and all the scientists will complain.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/08c001dbbc50%247eb72920%247c257b60%24%40com.

[Lester Veenstra]

So endith that wild idea

 

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y W8YCM/6Y 6Y8LV (Reformed USNSG CTM1)

les...@veenstras.com

 

452 Stable Ln

Keyser WV 26726 USA

 

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)

GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)

 

 

Telephones:

Home:            +1-304-289-6057

US cell          +1-304-790-9192

Jamaica cell:    +1-876-456-8898

 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/b362bf5a-3262-41b5-83ab-862ccfdc2b94n%40googlegroups.com.

[Lester Veenstra]

Out of curiosity, what is the band width (frequency limits) of the restriction?

 

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y W8YCM/6Y 6Y8LV (Reformed USNSG CTM1)

les...@veenstras.com

 

452 Stable Ln

Keyser WV 26726 USA

 

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)

GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)

 

 

Telephones:

Home:            +1-304-289-6057

US cell          +1-304-790-9192

Jamaica cell:    +1-876-456-8898

 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/1565177602.1624890.1746470091090%40mail.yahoo.com.

[b alex pettit jr]

https://www.itu.int/dms_pub/itu-r/opb/act/R-ACT-WRC.15-2023-PDF-E.pdf

[Captain Anne Flint]

Hi all, 

Wish we could attend, but personal circumstances prevent it. As to the lunar surface, I have heard 2 objections to this: seismic disturbances and the equipment that is already there. Is this valid? What about the moon’s Lagrange points? is there something there now? 

Sorry to hear about CubeSat limits; I would like to read [more of] the bible according to Kruth (or watch a presentation?). 

Thanks, Wende 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/CAHRLkT6-KQZ38-Uh3qY661grjhVbg56WfY1H-iECQB8hWr8A4A%40mail.gmail.com.

[tedcl...@gmail.com]

Thanks to Alex for posting the link,
      World Radiocommunication Conference 2023 (WRC-23)
      Provisional Final Acts
      15 December 2023
      https://www.itu.int/dms_pub/itu-r/opb/act/R-ACT-WRC.15-2023-PDF-E.pdf

Its 629 pages are such an   easy   read.


I was pleased my browser found "astron" 237 times, and "space-to-Earth" 299 times.



I finally found Galactic hydrogen's 1420 MHz mentioned on page 564,
...
c) that the frequency band 1 400-1 427 MHz is currently allocated to the Earth exploration-satellite (passive), radio astronomy and space research (passive) services on a primary basis;
...



And the 1612 MHz Hydroxyl (OH) Masers on page 353,
...
g) that the radio astronomy service is allocated on a primary basis in the frequency bands 1 610.6-1 613.8 MHz and 1 660-1 670 MHz, and No. 5.149 applies;
...


---
Ted Cline
TedClineGit at gmail.com

On Wednesday, May 7, 2025 at 5:56:31 AM UTC-6 b alex pettit jr wrote:

https://www.itu.int/dms_pub/itu-r/opb/act/R-ACT-WRC.15-2023-PDF-E.pdf

...

 

[Marcus D. Leech]

On 07/05/2025 20:50, tedcl...@gmail.com wrote:

Thanks to Alex for posting the link,
      World Radiocommunication Conference 2023 (WRC-23)
      Provisional Final Acts
      15 December 2023
      https://www.itu.int/dms_pub/itu-r/opb/act/R-ACT-WRC.15-2023-PDF-E.pdf

Its 629 pages are such an   easy   read.


I was pleased my browser found "astron" 237 times, and "space-to-Earth" 299 times.



I finally found Galactic hydrogen's 1420 MHz mentioned on page 564,
...
c) that the frequency band 1 400-1 427 MHz is currently allocated to the Earth exploration-satellite (passive), radio astronomy and space research (passive) services on a primary basis;
...



And the 1612 MHz Hydroxyl (OH) Masers on page 353,
...
g) that the radio astronomy service is allocated on a primary basis in the frequency bands 1 610.6-1 613.8 MHz and 1 660-1 670 MHz, and No. 5.149 applies;
...


---
Ted Cline
TedClineGit at gmail.com

I actually authored a document for ITU once.  The intended audience was not technical people, but senior ministers in
  governments.  I was over 100 pages, and contained, perhaps, 15 pages of actual information.   My personal style is
  to keep things concise and to the point.  But I needed the money at the time, and ITU/UN paid well, if somewhat
  lazily (took *forever* to get paid).

On Wednesday, May 7, 2025 at 5:56:31 AM UTC-6 b alex pettit jr wrote:

https://www.itu.int/dms_pub/itu-r/opb/act/R-ACT-WRC.15-2023-PDF-E.pdf

...

 

--
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Society of Amateur Radio Astronomers" group.
To post to this group, send email to sara...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
sara-list-...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/sara-list?hl=en
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Society of Amateur Radio Astronomers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sara-list+...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/85cd4ae6-2216-4706-bf8a-def368e943ffn%40googlegroups.com.

[Lester Veenstra]

thanks

 

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y W8YCM/6Y 6Y8LV (Reformed USNSG CTM1)

les...@veenstras.com

 

452 Stable Ln

Keyser WV 26726 USA

 

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)

GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)

 

 

Telephones:

Home:            +1-304-289-6057

US cell          +1-304-790-9192

Jamaica cell:    +1-876-456-8898

 

From: 'b alex pettit jr' via Society of Amateur Radio Astronomers [mailto:sara...@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 7, 2025 7:56 AM
To: 'Lester Veenstra' via Society of Amateur Radio Astronomers
Subject: Re: [SARA] Cube Sats for Amateur Radio Astronomy

 

https://www.itu.int/dms_pub/itu-r/opb/act/R-ACT-WRC.15-2023-PDF-E.pdf