Question about electron transitions in Hydrogen

[ja...@ganssle.com]

Eduard’s study of the H166a line made me realize how little I know about electrons in atoms.

 

As an astrophotographer I’m familiar with the Balmer and similar lines. But I had no idea electrons could be in an n=167 state. This paper (https://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/1968ApJS...16..143L/0000161.000.html) lists them going to over n=800. Another source says the “size” of an atom with n=1000 is about the diameter of a human hair.

 

Does anyone know of a source that talks about these transitions? Like, does an electron most likely cascade with a difference in n of 1 or a low number… or are they equally likely to jump from, say, n=1000 to n=50? How long do electrons stay in these states? What makes an electron “decide” to change states?

 

Hopefully one doesn’t need a ton of knowledge of quantum mechanics to get a basic understanding of these phenomena.

 

Jack

[Alex P]

See if this info helps 

https://github.com/AP-HLine-3D/HLine3D/blob/main/Tech_Info_SpinFlip_21cm_HIine_Jan1958.pdf

Regards, 

Alex Pettit

HLine3D

[ja...@ganssle.com]

Thanks, Alex. Very interesting and I will study this. It is just for the 21cm spin-flip line, however.

 

Jack

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[Bruce Rout]

Hi Jack, The 21 cm line is a result of the Zeeman effect and was first explained by Zeeman and Lortenz, who won the Nobel in 1902 for that discovery. It has nothing to do with flipping electrons. It is a measure of the angular momentum of the proton. The 1927 paper by Schrodinger on quantum mechanics, also a Nobel prize-winning paper, shows that the Bohr model of the atom is erroneous. In it, Schrodinger derives his famous Schrodinger's Equation, which forms the mainstay of quantum mechanics. Schrodinger concludes that no physical model can describe quantum mechanics, and we must resort to using mathematical models instead. The n-states are described by eigenvalues, which can have an infinite number of values or energy states.  There has been a massive battle in the world of quantum between the Einstein-Schrodinger interpretation and the Bohr-Copenhagen interpretation for nearly 100 years. Unfortunately, most media coverage supports the Copenhagen interpretation because the Einstein-Schrodinger model requires solving a relatively simple differential equation, which is beyond the capacity of those claiming to be experts in the field.

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[Astronomy For Change]

Hi Jack

No, you don't need a “ton of knowledge” to get a basic understanding of this. This is actually quite interesting, as we don't often speak of these very high-level transitions. The more familiar Hydrogen series (as you may know) are the Lyman Series (Ultraviolet), the Balmer Series (Visible), the Paschen, Brackett, Pfund and Humphreys (n=6) series (all infrared). With these high-level transitions (n>10), it wouldn't take much to ionize the atom completely. The ionization potential for Hydrogen is 13.6 ev. This means that any photon or energy source with this amount of energy or greater that comes into contact with the atom would completely ionize it. This suggests that any Hydrogen atom in such a state wouldn't remain there very long, with the slightest variation changing the state or ionizing it completely.

Again, very interesting, and thank you for sharing!

Cheers,

Tom Madigan

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[ja...@ganssle.com]

Thanks, Guys!

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[Bruce Rout]

Jack, Tom is correct. Very high n-state is close to ionization. It would be interesting to calculate the abundance of such atoms compared to temperature. Apparently below 7000 k Hydrogen is all non-ionized and is completely ionized above 10000 k.

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[fasleitung3]

Hi guys,

I am afraid that some of the comments to you questions are not quite correct. Let me try to summarize:

Radio recombination lines are more or less the same thing as the Balmer lines. The only difference is that the transition for the Balmer lines is from higher levels to the level n=2, whereas radio recombination lines are at a much higher n. As the energy spacing between the elctron levels of the hydrogen atom gets smaller and smaller as you go up in n, the wavelength of the transistion gets smaller and smaller. Hence, the Lyman series is in the Ultraviolet, the Balmer series in the visible and the Paschen series is in the infrared. As go up in the n you end up in the radio regime.

The Balmer line n=3 -> N=2 is called H alpha 2, the Balmer line n=4 -> N=2 is called H beta 2 .. and so on.

Likewise, the radio recombination line H alpha 166 would be the transition from n=167 -> n=166. Beta and gamma lines do also exist as radio recombination lines, they are much weaker though.

How to these very high levels get excited in the hydrogen atom? The radio recombination lines occur in regions with high radiation intensity such as star forming regions. Here, the hydrogen atoms can be ionized. As the protons and elctrons recombine to form an atom again, the atom can be in a highly excited state. This is also why these lines are called "recombination lines".

You can find further information about radio recombination lines in one of our articles: https://astropeiler.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Astropeiler_Story_4.pdf

Let me point out, that the radio recombination lines have nothing to do whith the 21-cm line. The 21-cm line is a transition between the hyperfine structure states in the ground state of the hydrogen atom n=1. There are numerous sources in the internet explaining this transition.

Best regards,

Wolfgang

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[wallacefj]

Wonderful explanation, I hadn't thought of it like that before! Thanks!

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

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From: 'fasleitung3' via Society of Amateur Radio Astronomers <sara...@googlegroups.com>

Date: 8/19/25 3:36 AM (GMT-05:00)

To: sara...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [SARA] Question about electron transitions in Hydrogen

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[ja...@ganssle.com]

Wolfgang,

 

That is a fascinating paper. This morning I read all four of your Astropeiler Stockert Stories and learned much. Thanks!

 

Jack

 

From: 'fasleitung3' via Society of Amateur Radio Astronomers <sara...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2025 3:37 AM
To: sara...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [SARA] Question about electron transitions in Hydrogen

 

Hi guys,

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