Fwd: [aryayouthgroup] Re: Traitvad vs. Advait and Location of Individual Soul in Human Body

[naga narayana]

Abhi / Kartik / Lakshmi / ... others,

 

I truly enjoyed my visit thank to all your enthusiasm in the subject. I am sorry I could not get to answer some of your queries thanks to the time and engagements. You had asked some questions regarding Adwaita and its nemesis in phylosophical circles. I am forwarding one of my responses to similar questions raised recently in the Arya Samaj (Late Dayananda Saraswati) forum. I thought this may address your concerns/questions regarding how I look at Adwaita as. IT IS PRETTY LENGTHY ... hope you have patience to go through it :). If you want you can post it in our Sanketi forum as well. I could not do that.

 

Let me know if you have any questions.

 

I am just copying this to others who might have been interested. All are welcome to raise questions. The more difficult the question is, more I can learn from the same.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

 

 

On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Madan kaura <madan...@yahoo.com> wrote:

- Hide quoted text -
Shree Hari
 
Dear Nagaji Ram Ram!
 
Forwarding you a note from Arjun Tuteja, pls. comment on the subject:
"Traitvad vs. Advait and Location of Individual Soul in Human Body"
 
I do not feel qualified to comment on the subject but I am sure you certainly can comment!
Pls. forgive me, the article is quite long!
 
Thanks and humble regards
Madan
 
=============================================================================================

 

Madanji,
 
Thanks for forwarding the question. I have attempted to provide a resolution to myself on this matter below. If it helps, I am happy.
 
Let me know if you have any questions or concerns.
 
Adwaita vs Traitvad

 

A great saint (Thyagaraaja) sang in ecstacy couple of centuries back ... Dwaitamu sukhamaa adwaitamu sukhamaa … Where is Aananda vested? In the UNITY or in the MULTIPLICITY? Why waste time debating on this?? Shouldn't I just submit myself at the lotus feet of Sri Rama instead??? ...

 

We all know very well that our cognitive mechanism is incapable of fathoming The Universal Essence in its completeness … yet, we entertain debates on the same unilaterally. When asked by the adolescent Nachiketa regarding THE TRUTH beyond existence, Yama says that even the cosmic forces and the gods cannot fathom THAT ...

 

Devairatraapi vichikitsitam puraa na hi suvigneyamaNuresha dharmah |

 

He begs him not to insist for an answer on this … he adds he is willing to offer anything else instead …

 

Anyam varam nachiketo vriNeeshva maamo'pareetseerati maasrijainam ||

 

… that is the depth of this subject …

 

Therefore, anyone who entertains a debate on the trans-existential truth ought to be infested with the ignorance beyond any potential resolution just like the blind fellows trying to analyze an elephant with their limited senses. The Truth ought to encompass both the knowns and the unknowns as well as the knowables and the unknowables. One's cognitive system is limited to percieve only "the knowns" out of all these. I would extend the famous oriental proverb of "a cup being half empty and half full" to "a cup with a drop floating in the universal expanse" to be more realistic on one's potential for information-centric knowledge. And, on top of all, the intellect will stumble hard and falter to explain even the so called knowns when examined in depth. One would soon realize that all the knowns in one's cognitive system are based upon the bliefs on so many other "knowns" which are built upon so many sensorial signals ... eventually, just beliefs on sensorial signals which never stayed for a moment! The unknowns and uknowables are just place holders for whatever that do not fit into this belief system!!

 

Therefore, whoever claims anything regarding The Truth with the help of the cognitive mechanism that is literally blind to The Whole is like a blind fellow lead by another blind fellow circling around and around both having no clue of their whereabouts as well as their destination. One who fails to touch the impervious walls of ignorance that binds all the knowns one could ever fathom, would keep praising one's own intellectual prowess of understanding The Universal Essence, The Truth beyond ...

 

Avidyaayaamantare vartamaanaah swayam dheerah panDitam manyamaanaah |
DandramyamaaNaah pariyanti mooDhaah andhenaiva neeyamaanaa yathaandhaah ||

 

Therefore, any insistence (Vaada) on an undebatable would naturally remain mere ignorance in spite of the bright and colorful logic and language adapted in the same. The trans-existential reality is undebatable - (1) IT remains beyond any existential manipulation; (2) IT cannot be brought within cognitive limits for an evaluation; and (3) IT does not depend on any experiential agreement. IT transcends the dominion of actions, thoughts and desires altogether and any debate about THAT would remain mere cyclic logic such as seed-first-or-tree-first leading the pursuer nowhere.

 

Let us turn our attention to the ones who debate in either case - Adwaita Vaad or Traitva Vaad.

 

A true Adwaitin cannot have any room to debate - what is the fellow debating upon when he himself is asserting that EVRYTHING IS ONE?! When there is no second - whom is he arguing with? what is he arguing about?? and what is he arguning for to start with???

 

A true Traitwin has no room to argue either. How can he debate upon something that encompasses the whole universe and overlords everything with the self-acknowledged insignificant existence?! When he accepts that every entity is an independent from each other and are governed by The Lord of all, The Omniscient, The Omnipresent and The Omnipotetnt, what authority can he retain to argue upon any other entity irrespective of what is said by the other? How can he ever counter the governance by The Lord in any argument as everything is under the governance of the one whom who claim to be The Lord of himself as well?? How can one understand another's viewpoint completely to negate the same, that too in vehemence?

 

Therefore, if there is a debate neither of them are whatever they are claiming to be. Rather, they both are contradicting their very beliefs! In a way, one who does not know how to wage such a debate is better than such so-called intellectuals. The former ones have a chance to realize ... the later ones have no room to realize ...

 

Andham tamah pravishanti ye avidyaamupaasate |
Tato bhooya iva te tamo ye u vidyaayagm rataah ||

 

A debate cannot settle any dispute … but, awareness can! A Adwaita Tattva as well as a Trai Tattva are qually valid and the one's who are AWARE of either or both - Adwaita Tattvagnya and Trai Tattvagnya - can not get entangled in any dispute ever as there is no room for difference of opinion there.

 

Every water particles remains distinct from all the rest irrespective where it flows - whether on the mountain peaks or in the valleys or in the streams and rivers or in the ocean or in the cloud … every particle remains distinct as IS … one who believes the life to be variant is bound to see variance around and within ... one who believes in plurality in life is bound to see multiplicity around and within ... YES! Every entity is a tiny particle in the ocean of life. Then why don't you just dance in harmony with the existential realities of life as is and dance with the tides and waves of the ocean of life with a perpetual awareness of its synergy in its very abyss?! Why are you wasting time in complaining and arguing about the ocean and its abyss while being tossed around in the waves as an insignificant particle??!! Do you have any reason to be unhappy??? In your own understanding and belief, life is ever-variant not letting you otherwise ... variance is the reality and then be happy with it!!!

 

Yathodakam durge vrishTam parvateshu vidhaavati |
Evam dharmaan prithak pashyanstaanevaanuvidhaavati ||

 

Water IS water in spite of being mixed up with anything else or of being pure on its own. It is never disconnected in space and time irresepctive of where its presence is sought and its appearance is manifested. So is the matter and energy clusters that seem to seek variance every moment ... remain the same and inseparable irresepctive of the chemical combinations they balance into in space and time. Every water particle is the ocean as such. Then why don't you dance along the ocean in absolute resonance as you are and as the ocean is irrespective of what you fathom - the water particels jumping around in joy; or the waves and tides bursting with bliss; or its abyss with Absolute Peace?! Why are you wasting time in complaining and arguing about when you are the unarguable exapanse of the ocean as such??!! Do you have any reason to be unhappy???  In your own understanding and belief, life is ever-invariant not letting you otherwise ... Invariance is the reality and then be happy as such!!!

 

Yathodakam shuddheshuddham aasiktam taadrigeva bhavati |
Evam munervijaanata aatmaa bhavati goutama ||

 

The nature (Dharma) - and, therefore, the behavior (GuNa) and appearance (Prakriti) - remains always variant being subjective in core and object-dependent in surface. Therefore, they are always linked with the process of variation or change in terms of actions, thoughts and experiences. One who identifies oneself with the trifold characteristics of nature, behavior and appearance would evaluate evrything in terms of the associated activities such as experience, perception and action which are diverse in themselves. One who identifies with such diverse multi-domain variance is bound to be distributed amongst the very fragments. Therefore, one who sees oneself with these is bound to flow perpetually along the flood of the associated fragments or images or identities.

The Self (Aatmaa) remains invariant on which all the variants (nature, behavior and appearance) are projected; being projected from The Same to start with; and to be absorbed into The Same eventually. It transcends all the barriers and boundaries of subject and object altogether. No fragments can remain their as IT remains ALL-INCLUSIVE in-spite of being ALL-EXCLUSIVE ... IT IS EVERYTHING WHILE NOTHING CAN BE THAT!. When observed with THAT in the background, all actions, thoughts and experiences also loose their locus and boundaries to be THAT in unity rather than themselves in multiplicity. When observed with THAT in the foreground, THAT alone remains while nothing else can ever exist. Everything remain as ther are ONLY DUE TO their invariant background as such while THAT INVARIANT is everything as such when one examines the so-called variants with an absolute discrimination ...

 

Esha sarveshu bhooteshu gooDho'tmaa na prakaashate |
Drishyate tvagryayaa buddhyaa sookshmyaa sookshma darshibhih ||

 

The tri-fold basis for presence is evident in the cognitive existence (Gnyaanaatma). In fact, it is this that is the basis for the perpetually variant cognition of the world and the individual in an infinitely diverse and variant fashion. The cognition system works only through fragmentation of the world into objects with finite attributes that are concievable by the mind and percievable by the senses depending on the sensitivity of the sensorial reception, transportation, and evaluation in the neural system with which it works. This is the root cause for all the fragments and images in terms of emotions and relations amongst which we have scattered our identities. Therefore, the percieved self (the subjective identity) remains fractured and is tossed around amongst the identities churned out perpetually by the sensory and motory mechanisms in terms of senses, actions and thoughts.

 

One has to transcend the barriers of the mind, sense and speech (Avidyaa) to attain the unity within and to appreciate the integrity in the cognitive self (Gnyaana Aatma) - THE SUBJECT that deliberates on all actions, thoughts and desires. One has to transcend the very cognitive barrier of knowledge (Vidyaa) to attain the seed of the very existence (Mahat Aatmaa). One has to break the barrier of this very seed completely to attain THE ABSOLUTE (Shaanta Aatmaa) that pervades all the manifested as well as the unmanifested equally. 

 

Yacchhedvaangmanasee praagnyaah tadyacchhedgnyaanaa aatmani |
Gnyaanamaatmani mahati niyacchhet tadyacchhecchhaanta aatmani ||

 

The Shaanta Aatmaa encompasses the Mahaan Aatmaa which encompasses the Gnyaana Aatmaa which encompasses the Praagnya that governs all the activities in its three planes of actions, thoughts and desires. The Trayi Tattva is the essence of existence. Adwaita is the Basis for this essence.

 

For me Adwaita is not "one" pitted against "two", "three", "five", etc. But, it is THAT wherein the very counting looses its relevance - neither necessary nor possible. For me the whole universe is like a bolero of cosmic entities marching out of THAT ranging their existence from microscopic to macroscpic appearance; remaining in perfect harmony in spite of their apparent diversity and perpetual variance; and marching back to THAT perpetually to retain its integrity in the cosmic symphony of Vishwaroopa. The universe keeps dancing in one, two, three, ... to infinity in its elements in absolute harmony with each other in the cosmic dance of THAT, The TaanDava Nritya. It always remains as ONE with absolute harmony and balance within THAT where no counts can ever exist.

 

THAT IS ALL-INCLUSIVE - one as well as many, none as well as all, ... zero (Shunya) as well as infinity (PoorNa). But, it remains ALL-EXCLUSIVE - none can explain THAT ... none ... neither one nor many nor none ...

 

PoorNamadah PoorNamidam PoorNaat PoorNamudachyate |
PoorNasya PoorNamaadaaya PoorNamevaavashishyate ||

|| Om Shantih Shantih Shantih ||

 

Let the peace prevail in all three existential planes of desires, thoughts and actions in the corresponding three worlds. Let there be peace in the body. Let their be peace in the mind. Let there be peace in the soul. Let THE PEACE that transcends all these existential planes pervade these planes as such.

 

|| Om Shantih Shantih Shantih ||

 

Regards.

Naga Narayana.

 

 

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: naga narayana <nagana...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, May 7, 2010 at 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: [aryayouthgroup] Re: Traitvad vs. Advait and Location of Individual Soul in Human Body
To: Madan kaura <madan...@yahoo.com>
Cc: Arjun Tuteja <adtu...@yahoo.com>, madan....@gmail.com

Madanji,

 

Here goes the second part ... if it is of any interest.

 

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Location of The Soul in the body

The soul is place holder we have provided to understand and communicate whatever we feel and mean by the "I" or the subject that represents and acts as an individual. Therefore, wherever the presence of the I or the subject is revealed, that would be the residence of the soul as well.

One is either identified with the emotions or mind or body and their respective objects in the world. Accordingly one would feel one's presence at the corresponding spots. Therefore, all these should be considered as the abode of the soul as such.

One always would feel one's presence at the heart as if one is pouring out of one's heart  in an emotional moment. On the other hand, one would also feel one's presence at the center of one's fore head (Aagnyaa Chakra) in an intellectual moment. One would feel oneself anywhere in the body wherever there is a need from within or an input from one's environment. One also feels one's presence wherever the thought and memory take in space and time. In essence, one is there wherever the thoughts and experiences are triggered to bring one's very presence into one's attention.

When we meet somebody, we first respond to their appearance or extrinsic characteristics (Prakriti). As our association develops we start recognizing the indoviduals with their behavior or intrinsic properties (GuNa). As our association deepens, we start identifying the person with the inherent emotional values vested in the individual (Dharma). The identity of an individual is always perceived variantly based on the images, thoughts and experiences that the individual could emote and promote in the perciever.

Then, is the soul the Prakriti or the GuNa or the Dharma or the Witness or beyond?

Prakriti acknowledging Prakriti says, the soul is body …

GuNa sensing GuNa says, the soul is mind …

Dharma resonating Dharma says, the soul is Jeeva or PraaNa …

Witness being Witness remains silent as The Self within which the soul and therefore Jeeva, mind and body are dissolved eternally …

Everything as a matter fact, although revealed with their apparent perceivable forms, transcend all the existential as well as non-existential barriers of body, mind and desire being the witness and transcend the very notion of manifestation to be The Witness of all that transcends the very witness. "Eeshaavaasyamidam sarvam" - everything is dwelt by THAT and hence there is no room for anything else anywhere. Then how can "a soul" dwell anywhere? If there is a notion of a soul residing somewhere, the very soul is dwelt by THAT and hence THAT alone dwells everywhere and everywhence. Nothing can ever manifest unless THAT resides there first. Nothing can ever attain anything unless THAT recieves the same first. THAT remains the nourisher of everything being the origin, boundary as well as destiny for everything. No wonder why the Upanishads wonder ... in spite being unmoving IT remains faster than the fastest, the mind, to be everywhere one could ever go to recieve and support the same ... even the cosmic powers cannot outrun THAT as they also need the same support to be what they are.

NOTHING can ever precede THAT ... and, NOTHING can ever proceed beyond THAT … THAT IS THERE EVERYWHERE EVERYWHENCE across the and beyond both space and time. That is the only way THAT can outrun everything in the universe concurrently. Being all-pervasive IT outruns all the ever-transcient universe. In fact, THAT is the very source of all nourishment and support that keeps this universe with integrity. IT saves the universe from disintegration by binding the universe to be one with ITSELF eternally.

Anejadeko manaso javeeyo nainaddevaa aapnuvan poorvamarshat |

Taddhavato'nyaanatyeti tishThat tasminnapo maatarishvaa dadhaati ||

The two birds - world and individual - enjoy the life as they ought to based on the corresponding activities generated within and amongst them only due to THAT pervading them both absolutely - atom to atom, cell to cell, organ to organ, sense to sense, body to body, body to mind, mind to experience to body, individual to individual, etc. Yet, the two remain inseparable from each other as light and shadow. Anything and everything in the whole creation remain one  with absolute integrity. The integral essence across everything is of essence whether one starts and pursues the school of monolithic existence, or dual existence, or tri-fold existence, or five-fold existence, or seven-fold-existence, ... or million-fold existence ...

Ritam pibantou sukritasya loke guhaam pravishTou parame paraardhye |

Chhaayaatapou brahmvido vadanti panchaagnayo ye cha triNaachiketaah ||

The essence of all is the essence that I am (Aham Brahmaasmi), that you are (Tattvamasi), and that all this is (Ayametadbrahmaa). Everything is essentially is THAT ESSENCE only (Sarvam khalu idam brahmaa).

Zero (Bouddha) or one (Adwaita) or two (Dwaita) or three (TriNaachiketa) or five (Panchaagneya) … or million (Science) do not matter at all. ALL IS THAT IRRESPECTIVELLY. And, THAT alone dwells and pervades anything and everything.

|| Eeshavaasyamidam sarvam yatkincha jagatyaam jagat ||

THAT IS ALL.

Regards.

Naga Narayana.

On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Madan kaura <madan...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Shree Hari   Dear Nagaji Ram Ram!   Forwarding you a note from Arjun Tuteja, pls. comment on the subject: "Traitvad vs. Advait and Location of Individual Soul in Human Body"   I do not feel qualified to comment on the subject but I am sure you certainly can comment! Pls. forgive me, the article is quite long!   Thanks and humble regards Madan   From: Arjun Tuteja <adtu...@yahoo.com> Subject: FW: [aryayouthgroup] Re: Traitvad vs. Advait and Location of Individual Soul in Human Body To: madan...@yahoo.com, madan....@gmail.com Cc: adtu...@yahoo.com Date: Tuesday, April 20, 2010, 2:31 PM Hello Madan & Subhash   The other day, we were all discussing this subject. Would you like to comment and provide some other evidence, in form of some Mantra’s etc.   Best regards   Arjun       From: aryayou...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:aryayou...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Askpublications Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:24 AM To: bcm...@gmail.com; psab...@hotmail.com; ska...@yahoo.com Cc: aryayou...@yahoogroups.com Subject: [aryayouthgroup] Re: Traitvad vs. Advait and Location of Individual Soul in Human Body     Dear Bhavesh Ji,   I agree with your views expressed regarding Location of soul in Human Body as well as on Traitvad vs. Advait. Below I add my reasons in brief why traitvad is correct and mantras from the Vedas supporting the same. There are many logical objections to the advaita philosophy i.e. the monist or non-dualist view that God and soul are identical and not different entities. First, why did God fragment Himself to create various souls—what was the purpose? Does God love Himself so much that He must create mini or micro-clones of Himself for an audience or an admiration club? Second, who is responsible for various karmas—a fragment (amsha) of God that has become ignorant by being born or a soul that is entirely separate eternal entity and different from God, because a belief in the advaita philosophy will negate free will and make the soul into a passive participant like a puppet in God’s hand? Third, if God who is perfection were to fragment Himself and give some fragments birth in virtuous and nurturing families with secure financial means, and others in poor or non-caring families, then He would not be Just, Kind or Competent. What did the latter fragments do to deserve such a fate; where is justice on the part of a Just God? Fourth, whom does God judge—an ignorant fragment of Himself that He created or various souls different from Him? Fifth, who prays to whom—an imperfect amsha of God to God who is Perfection or a soul that is different from God to God that is Perfection? Lastly, if the soul was an amsha of God, the soul should have the same characteristics as God e.g. Supreme Bliss, Perfection but the soul(s) does not. The soul has many limitations it is ekdeshi and alpajna whereas God is Sarvavyapak (omniscient) and Sarvajna (all knowing). The souls six characteristics when it takes birth in a physical body are as follows: Ichchha desires or wishes, dvesh jealousy, prayatn effort or karma, sukha happiness, dukha unhappiness or misery, and jnana knowledge or awareness (Nyäya Darshan 1: 1: 10).  God, however, is Supreme Knowledge and Supreme Bliss and God is Perfection. God is beyond desires, jealousy, happiness or unhappiness because these are the characteristics of the soul. At multiple places the Vedas state that God is Omnipresent e.g. Eesha vasyam idam sarvam which means God is present everywhere in the universe (Yajur Veda 40: 1 and 8) however, there is not a single mantra in the Vedas that states Jeevatma vasyam idam sarvam i.e. that the soul exists everywhere and that the soul is same as God. Therefore, I also strongly disagrees with the advaita philosophy and considers the idea that a perfect God created imperfect fragments (micro-clones) of Him-self misrepresents Vedas, and its roots are not the Vedas. The trinity of God, souls and prakriti (physical matter) as three distinctly separate eternal entities are integral part of the core fundamental beliefs of the Vedic Dharma. The purpose of the soul is to rise above its usual attachments to transient pleasures of the physical universe and make effort to attain God and find bliss (moksha). On the other hand, the non-dualists (advaita followers) believe that when an amsha of God (whom others call soul) overcomes ignorance, it realizes that it is same as God, it becomes liberated, merges completely with God and is never reborn. Some non-dualists also believe that soul is not responsible for the performance of any karma, but instead is a passive or silent witness to the actions of the body and mind; this belief also is against Vedic scriptures which declare soul has free will, it is action oriented and is solely responsible for its actions. The following five mantras from the Vedas explain the relationship of God, souls and prakriti in a succinct manner.   Eeshä  väsyamidam  sarvam  yadkincha  jagatyäm  jagat. Tayna  tyaktayna  bhunjeethä  mä  gridhah  kasya  swidhanam. (Yajur Veda 40: 1)   Human beings, listen!          Eeshä                 väsyam           idam                               sarvam God, the Master of all            dwells           here around you                           everywhere, riches in the universe   yadkincha                                               jagatyäm  jagat  in every spot you can imagine,                         in every region of this vast and changing universe.   Tayna                                                         tyaktayna Therefore, you should                                        without attachment or craving (share with others),                                          bhunjeethä enjoy the riches which God has given you and which you have earned by your actions              mä  gridhah                                           kasya  swidhanam do not be greedy and do not covet                        those riches which belong to others.   This Veda mantra is a message to various human beings i.e. individual souls to always remember that Eesha—God, the Supreme Master is present everywhere in the vast universe which is made of prakriti. The last three words of the first line of this mantra (yadkincha jagatyam jagat) make it clear that the omnipresence of God refers to every last place in the universe (prakriti), whether or not it can be imagined. It also reminds us that God’s universe is in constant motion and undergoing continuous change. We too, then, must remain active and forever try to improve ourselves. This mantra encourages us individual souls to always make the effort and to try to do good deeds that are explained in the second line of this mantra. The second line of this mantra counsels us to live, prosper and enjoy the things of this physical world (prakriti) without being attached to them. It is useless to covet earthly riches since you will not be able to take them with you when you die; only the results of your deeds (karma) will accompany you. Above all, we are told not to be greedy and desire those things that belong to others. Instead, we should be content with those things that we have earned through our honest labor. We are only stewards of those things that are given to us on earth since all things really belong solely to God. Our goal is to attain God and find bliss and not to get enmeshed in transitory worldly pleasures and riches.   Dvä suparnä sayujä sakhäyä samänam vraksham pari shsvajätay. Tyoh anyah pippalam swädu ati anashnan anyah abhi chäksheeti.             Dvä suparnä               sayujä sakhäyä                      pari shsvajätay                                   Two beautiful birds                who are intimate friends,                     are sitting intimately                                                 i.e. companions                                    close to each other   samänam vraksham.              Tayoh anyah              pippalam swädu ati on the same tree.                                  Among them,one                 is eating and enjoying                                                                                     the fruits of the tree                                                                                                             anyah                          anashnan                               abhi chäksheeti.        While the other bird                   is not eating, but                                  is observing the first bird,                                                                                                                                 as a supervisor.                   This mantra uses the allegory of two birds and the tree to beautifully represent the relationship of God, the soul and the material world (prakriti). The first bird represents the soul that is enjoying the fruits of the tree i.e. prakriti. While the first bird is free to pluck the fruit and enjoy it, the bird is being observed and supervised by the second bird, God who is the most intimate companion of the soul.  God, by being the inner voice to the soul, guides the soul to do the right thing, but at the same time God allows the soul freedom (free will) to do what the soul wants. God as the supervisor observes and judges the karmas of the soul and gives appropriate awards but does not impose or use force on the soul like a tyrant to do something.   Yo bhootänäm adhipatih yasmin lokah adhi shritah. Ya eeshay mahato mahän tayna grahnämi tväm aham mayi grahnämi tväm aham. (Yajur Veda 20: 32)   Yo adhipatih              bhootänäm                 yasmin adhi shritah               lokah. He, God is the Master         of all living beings               who governs and sustains,                                all abodes,                                                                                                                                                                 i.e. stars, galaxies.       Ya eeshay                     mahato mahän                  tayna               aham grahnämi tväm He, God is the Master,        He is Greater than the greatest          therefore,               I accept You (God) as my Master, Master of all riches                                                                                                                                mayi                            aham grahnämi tväm. inside me               with meditation, I make a concious home for You.                  The mantras describe God as the Master of all living beings as well as the whole universe. It is God who governs and sustains all the stars and galaxies that may be home to living beings.  In this mantra, like the first mantra God is adressed as the Master of the entire spiritual and the physical wealth in the universe i.e. God is the Master of abundance. Next, God is described as Greater than the greatest i.e. God alone is Almighty or Omnipotent. A devotee after acknowledging God’s Supreme qualities and his/her own limitations states, “Dear God, I accept You as my Supreme Master, I meditate on You and and make a conscious home for You in my soul. I seek Your grace to follow the right path so that I may get consciously close to You i.e. I may always be blessed by You.”                  Vayur  anilam  amritam  athedam  bhasmantam  shariram.                     Om  krato  smara  kilve  smara  kritam  smara. (Yajur Veda 40: 15)                 Vayur                                         anilam                                 amritam The soul is always doing deeds.         It is not made up of physical matter.               It is immortal.            ath                edam      shariram        bhasmantam                            Krato On the other hand,         this,                body                 turns to ashes.              O human being, ceaseless performer,            Om  smara                          kilve  smara                              kritam smara always remember Almighty God,     Remember God to.                                         Remember God to our Protector and Benefactor.                 gain strength                             perform your appropriate duties   This mantra describes the relationship between the physical body, the soul and God and gives advice on how one should live until the end of one’s life. The mantra affirms that the soul is immortal; the soul does not contain physical matter and does not die with the death of the physical body. The soul has conscious energy and is always active performing one or the other karma. It is the soul that keeps us alive. At the time of the death of our physical body, depending on our karma, God gives our soul a new body and this cycle continues until moksha is obtained.             The body, on the other hand, is made of physical matter (prakriti) and is prone to destruction and disintegration. This physical body that we spend hours on, meeting its need for food, decorating it and providing it with sensual pleasures is nothing without the soul and will rot without it. It arose from ashes (physical matter) and will end in ashes (either by cremation or burial).             The mantra next addresses the soul as the ceaseless performer of one or the other deeds and reminds it to always remember God, OM. “God alone is your Protector and Master and your goal is to reach Him and not to focus on physical pleasures. Remember God to gain strength. Whenever you are discouraged, remember God your Protector and Benefactor, and your troubles will disappear. You will find the courage and strength to go on and will feel revitalized.” It then says to the soul, “Remember God while doing your deeds. God will help you find the difference between virtuous and bad deeds and will guide you along the right path.”   Bäläd  aykam anneeyaskam  ut aykam nayva drshyatay. Tatah pari shvajeeyasee devatä sä mam priyä.               Aykam                         anneeyaskam             bäläd               ut aykam         One thing/entity, (Prakrti),                  is much smaller than            tip of hair,              and the next one subatomic physical matter                                                                                                  thing/entity (soul)   na eva drshyatay.                               Tatah              pari shvajeeyasee is invisible, is not detectable              A third entity different        is intimately in contact by physical means.                              from the other two,              with them (other two),                                                                                              sä devatä                     mam priyä. That divine entity                is most dear to me. (God, Eeshwara)    In all the five mantras described above, God, soul and the material world are clearly described as three separate entities. This belief in the three eternals based on the Vedas and Upanishads is also called Traitvad (three eternals) and in many ways is quite different than the commonly held views of the Hindu Religion based upon the Vedanta’s advaita—monism beliefs which state that Brahman—God and jiva—the soul are identical and prakriti the physical matter is maya—an illusion or is illusory. These four mantras describe God (in the singular) as the Master of all souls (in the plural) and the universe. In these mantras, the soul is seeking God’s guidance to follow the right path and get consciously close to Him but no where do the mantras state or imply that the soul and God are identical. The mantras also state that God is Omnipresent and all knowing. However, neither these four mantras, nor for that matter any mantra in the Vedas has ever stated that the soul is Omnipresent, all knowing or same as God. The soul’s abilities as stated earlier in this chapter have always been recognized as quite limited. The four mantras also imply that in contrast to God and the souls, the matter by itself is innately inert. God is the Master of the universe and it is God who activates the changes in the universe. The soul on the other hand can utilize prakriti—matter only in a limited manner for its enjoyment, but is cautioned to use prakriti—matter wisely and not get lost in       --- On Sun, 4/18/10, Bhavesh Merja <bcm...@gmail.com> wrote: From: Bhavesh Merja <bcm...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [aryayouthgroup] Re: Location of Individual Soul in Human Body To: "Prem Sabhlok" <psab...@hotmail.com> Cc: aryayou...@yahoogroups.com, aditya...@yahoo.co.in Date: Sunday, April 18, 2010, 11:28 PM   What Adi Sankracharya said in the name of Adwaitvaad (monism) is anti-Vedic. He followed his dada-guru (guru's guru) Gaudpaad. In Shankar's bhashyas on Prasthantrayi (Gita, Vedant Darshan & Upanishads) we don't find any reference of the mantras from the four Vedas (Rig etc). He used (misused?) his great power of logic in interpreting various texts according to his own personal philosophical notions. Otherwise there exist many verses and aphorisms in Vedic literature establishing Traitvaad of God, Soul and Matter in clear terms. This was the reason that Swami Vivekananda (himself a great ‘Vedantin’) has admitted this fact that Shankaracharya has twisted the real meanings of many aphorisms which in fact represent the bheda (difference between Bhahman & individual Soul).     To believe that "the authors of Sad Darshna (Six shastras of Vedic philosophy) interpret Veda mantras based on monism, dualism, pantheism, pluralism, agnosticism and even atheism, and hence some variations could happen" — is also not at all reasonable. These six Rishis - Kanad, Kapil etc. were Rishis - seers, not ordinary scholars. They have just tried to present the philosophical principles of the Vedas in most logical system. They are not contradicting each-other; rather they are complimentary to each-other. Swami Dayananda has explained this thing - synthesis of six Darshans in his Satyarth-prakash.   Neo-Vedant as per Shankar's philosophy is not clear on Maya. If maya is a substance (dravya) it negates Adwait. And if maya is an attribute (guna) it must be that of Brahman only because as per Adwaitvaad only Brahman exists – nothing else. Now if maya is Brahman's attribute then it must be eternal like Brahman. Because there is samavay- sambandha (permanent relation) between Dravya & Guna. Guna doesn't and can't exist without any dravya – substratum. It is very strange to believe that that the maya (dravya or guna - whatever it may be believed) makes all-knowing Brahman ignorant of His own swarup (nature)! Can all-knowing Brahman be ever believed to forget His own swarup?   Yes, if Maya is used to signify eternal inert - unconscious matter (prakriti-material cause of universe) then it becomes easy to understand Vedic philosophy of God (Brahman), Soul & Matter; otherwise not.   = Bhavesh Merja       On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 9:16 AM, Prem Sabhlok <psabhlok@hotmail. com> wrote: Dear All,   I normally restrict my Vedic messages what Vedas/Upanishds say or what Vedic metaphysicists like Rsi Yajnavlakya, Rsika Gargi, Adi Sankracharya and others say. Since metaphysicists of Sad Darshna (Six Schools of Indian philosophy) interpret Veda mantras based on monism, dualism, pantheism, pluralism, agnosticism and even atheism, some variations could happen. Hence I always write kindly feel free to improve my Vedic messages strictly based on Vedic metaphysics and NOT one's personal views.    Vedic concept of Maya as I could understand is as below   Subject: MAYA (Cosmic Delusion) as descibed in Vedas For appreciating the divine concept of Vedic Maya, a few references are given below.Rig Veda 1-131-1 and 6-47-18 describe the universe as His Creative Art (mayabhi) and for every form He is the Model. All the riches, matter, clouds, Sun and other objects belong to Him. Svetasvatra Upanishad (4 -9 and10) describes Brahma as the Illusion Maker and Prakrti as Maya. Being Shakti energy (cosmic power) of God, Maya hinders the truth to the human senses, which tend to even misrepresent the reality. According to Mundakya Upanishad 3-2-9, after the illusory effect of Maya vanishes, you become Brahma. "so ye ha vaitatparaman Brahma Veda, Brahmaiva Bhavati" (when you start knowing Brahma, you become Brahma. The human form of Indra Deva is an illusion R.V 6-47-18 says, "Indra Mayabhi"- the illusory Indra. According to Sama Veda 1710, HE shines as supreme Lord in all the worlds as part of his cosmic Lila (Play) described as Maya. He is the first cause of all these worlds visible to senses and beyond. The effect of Maya in our sense perception of truth is given in Yajur Veda 40-15 to 17 where it says," the face of truth is covered by golden lid." Unless the golden lid of Maya, which forms its veil, is removed, one cannot find the truth of Reality. Maya creates this golden disc and hides the God. It is for this very reason same truth is described and understood differently by different people. Rig- Veda 7-33-3 also attributes Maya in Prakrti. Bhagavad-Gita has some verses relating to Maya, particularly (7- 4, 5, 13, 14, 25, 27), (4- 9, 10), (3- 27, 39, 40). Soul (Atma)- the omniscient principle is provided to human beings so that they could get out of the vehement effect of MAYA and their past and present good or bad karma(actions) due to the predominance of their gunas (sattavic,rajasic and tamasic). Those who do not allow the unmoved mover soul to administer their gross bodies, do not follow Rta (cosmic laws) and do not serve the purpose of their human birth, are born again and again as the vehement effect of Maya continues. It is thus apparent that “Maya” creates attachment to children, matter, money, gold etc. Vedic metaphysics clearly mentions that all material things belong to God and these are given to us for minimum use as need based and not greed based. It is Maya that is the cause of insatiable desire and thus deludes the human beings (B.G.3-39, 40). Thus due to its cosmic illusion we are chained to Destiny.   The knowledge of the doctrine of Maya can save this beautiful divine  globe and world of senses. For bringing the Golden Age or the "Kingdom of Heaven" nearer to the earth, the knowledge of Maya would greatly help. The firm belief in its vehement effect can reverse the present trends based on abject materialism.   Those individuals who understand the effect of Maya all these modern gods, gurus, cults disappear and firm belief in One God and One life becomes dominant. They all find we are part of the same life of formless God who is our supreme Father. We live in Him as cells of His life, which take birth, grow and die and are reborn. It is more like our gross body that has trillions of living cells that are always there but live only for a few hours to a few days and are reborn. Vedas thus advise that the highest and ideal living is by avoiding illusory smartness i.e. false ego, snobbishness, artificial life of glamour and ostentation. The blind pursuit of money, matter and prestige, power and status are not the requirements of your real extended self (Jivatma) but illusory requirements of your senses that run after even tiny matter. Our intellectual arguments, empirical knowledge and sense experience have created a strange world of contrasts and confusion, one God to multiplicity of gods, extreme idealism to dreaded materialism. Today we find people have hardly any common views on any subject and this has become cause of conflict between nations, societies, families and even friends.Vedic Metaphysics tell us it is due to the mystic power (shakti) of the divine Nature described in Vedas as MAYA, it acts as a huge Cosmic Saw. Multiplicity, lust, greed, pride, hatred, jealousy, egoism and self-interest are its sharp teeth. Below and between its teeth are love, cooperation, humility, purity and truth. Those in pursuit of money, matter in any of its form and other mundane activities are very often caught in the teeth of Saw. They first start losing the divine instruments like buddhi (intellect) of their inner world and finally the instruments of their outer world like sense organs and finally their gross bodies as well. According to Bhagavad-Gita God being merciful and benevolent gives long rope to individuals to develop the divine qualities hidden in them and known to their immortal soul. Otherwise, the individuals being their own greatest enemies grow in wickedness and sink deeper into sin and finally get shameful punishment. Those individuals who start developing divine qualities known to their immortal extended "self” with selfless service to weaker members of society and resist from aimless pursuit of money and matter, smoothly pass through or below the cosmic Saw of Maya. Such persons tend to merge with Brahma -the formless and ineffable God through right knowledge contained in Vedas. Those who acquire this knowledge and put into practice get beyond the effect of the Saw of Maya.  Since Brahma is beyond this veil of cosmic illusion, the true seekers of Him tear off this veil with para jnan (higher knowledge) and also get beyond the illusory effect of Maya. These individuals come to know that nothing is produced out of nothing. So, God being eternal is Himself the universe and universe is God." A sateh saj jayete kutos" i.e. How can entity be produced out of non-entity? Maya is a practical philosophy of ending human sufferings. In any society when Knowledge of Maya starts disappearing diversity in thoughts actions increases. Human mind becomes devils workshop, even rudderless, and can lead to spread of atheism, materialism, anti social elements increase. All actions to make world free from pollution and Unity in Diversity become an act of hypocrisy to collect more funds. HUMAN Nature of believers in Maya is Positive- love, harmony, cooperation … (Plato, Sankracharya etc) and non believers is negative i.e. man is ungrateful, deceitful, cowardly, avaricious and fickle (Hobbes, Machiavelli) . Knowledge of Maya leads to Kingdom of Heaven near the earth, Universal brother hood, global family, Ramarajya, One God etc   For more details in regard to Vedic Maya, kindly read chapter 6 (six) of Glimpses of Vedic Metaphysics for on line reading and even taking print at no cost. Website is http://wwww. sabhlokcity. com/metaphysics/ The book is also accessible through Search Engines of Google.com, yahoo.com and Lulu.com. Please render divine and noble service and forward it other seekers of Vedic knowledge known to you.   Kindly also feel free to suggest changes in the Book strictly based on Vedic metaphysics.                                     Subject: MAYA (Cosmic Delusion) For appreciating the divine concept of Vedic Maya, a few references are given below.Rig Veda 1-131-1 and 6-47-18 describe the universe as His Creative Art (mayabhi) and for every form He is the Model. All the riches, matter, clouds, Sun and other objects belong to Him. Svetasvatra Upanishad (4 -9 and10) describes Brahma as the Illusion Maker and Prakrti as Maya. Being Shakti energy (cosmic power) of God, Maya hinders the truth to the human senses, which tend to even misrepresent the reality. According to Mundakya Upanishad 3-2-9, after the illusory effect of Maya vanishes, you become Brahma. "so ye ha vaitatparaman Brahma Veda, Brahmaiva Bhavati" (when you start knowing Brahma, you become Brahma. The human form of Indra Deva is an illusion R.V 6-47-18 says, "Indra Mayabhi"- the illusory Indra. According to Sama Veda 1710, HE shines as supreme Lord in all the worlds as part of his cosmic Lila (Play) described as Maya. He is the first cause of all these worlds visible to senses and beyond. The effect of Maya in our sense perception of truth is given in Yajur Veda 40-15 to 17 where it says," the face of truth is covered by golden lid." Unless the golden lid of Maya, which forms its veil, is removed, one cannot find the truth of Reality. Maya creates this golden disc and hides the God. It is for this very reason same truth is described and understood differently by different people. Rig- Veda 7-33-3 also attributes Maya in Prakrti. Bhagavad-Gita has some verses relating to Maya, particularly (7- 4, 5, 13, 14, 25, 27), (4- 9, 10), (3- 27, 39, 40). Soul (Atma)- the omniscient principle is provided to human beings so that they could get out of the vehement effect of MAYA and their past and present good or bad karma(actions) due to the predominance of their gunas (sattavic,rajasic and tamasic). Those who do not allow the unmoved mover soul to administer their gross bodies, do not follow Rta (cosmic laws) and do not serve the purpose of their human birth, are born again and again as the vehement effect of Maya continues. It is thus apparent that “Maya” creates attachment to children, matter, money, gold etc. Vedic metaphysics clearly mentions that all material things belong to God and these are given to us for minimum use as need based and not greed based. It is Maya that is the cause of insatiable desire and thus deludes the human beings (B.G.3-39, 40). Thus due to its cosmic illusion we are chained to Destiny. The knowledge of the doctrine of Maya can save this beautiful divine  globe and world of senses. For bringing the Golden Age or the "Kingdom of Heaven" nearer to the earth, the knowledge of Maya would greatly help. The firm belief in its vehement effect can reverse the present trends based on abject materialism. Those individuals who understand the effect of Maya all these modern gods, gurus, cults disappear and firm belief in One God and One life becomes dominant. They all find we are part of the same life of formless God who is our supreme Father. We live in Him as cells of His life, which take birth, grow and die and are reborn. It is more like our gross body that has trillions of living cells that are always there but live only for a few hours to a few days and are reborn. Vedas thus advise that the highest and ideal living is by avoiding illusory smartness i.e. false ego, snobbishness, artificial life of glamour and ostentation. The blind pursuit of money, matter and prestige, power and status are not the requirements of your real extended self (Jivatma) but illusory requirements of your senses that run after even tiny matter. Our intellectual arguments, empirical knowledge and sense experience have created a strange world of contrasts and confusion, one God to multiplicity of gods, extreme idealism to dreaded materialism. Today we find people have hardly any common views on any subject and this has become cause of conflict between nations, societies, families and even friends.Vedic Metaphysics tell us it is due to the mystic power (shakti) of the divine Nature described in Vedas as MAYA, it acts as a huge Cosmic Saw. Multiplicity, lust, greed, pride, hatred, jealousy, egoism and self-interest are its sharp teeth. Below and between its teeth are love, cooperation, humility, purity and truth. Those in pursuit of money, matter in any of its form and other mundane activities are very often caught in the teeth of Saw. They first start losing the divine instruments like buddhi (intellect) of their inner world and finally the instruments of their outer world like sense organs and finally their gross bodies as well. According to Bhagavad-Gita God being merciful and benevolent gives long rope to individuals to develop the divine qualities hidden in them and known to their immortal soul. Otherwise, the individuals being their own greatest enemies grow in wickedness and sink deeper into sin and finally get shameful punishment. Those individuals who start developing divine qualities known to their immortal extended "self” with selfless service to weaker members of society and resist from aimless pursuit of money and matter, smoothly pass through or below the cosmic Saw of Maya. Such persons tend to merge with Brahma -the formless and ineffable God through right knowledge contained in Vedas. Those who acquire this knowledge and put into practice get beyond the effect of the Saw of Maya.  Since Brahma is beyond this veil of cosmic illusion, the true seekers of Him tear off this veil with para jnan (higher knowledge) and also get beyond the illusory effect of Maya. These individuals come to know that nothing is produced out of nothing. So, God being eternal is Himself the universe and universe is God." A sateh saj jayete kutos" i.e. How can entity be produced out of non-entity? Maya is a practical philosophy of ending human sufferings. In any society when Knowledge of Maya starts disappearing diversity in thoughts actions increases. Human mind becomes devils workshop, even rudderless, and can lead to spread of atheism, materialism, anti social elements increase. All actions to make world free from pollution and Unity in Diversity become an act of hypocrisy to collect more funds. HUMAN Nature of believers in Maya is Positive- love, harmony, cooperation … (Plato, Sankracharya etc) and non believers is negative i.e. man is ungrateful, deceitful, cowardly, avaricious and fickle (Hobbes, Machiavelli) . Knowledge of Maya leads to Kingdom of Heaven near the earth, Universal brother hood, global family, Ramarajya, One God etc   For more details in regard to Vedic Maya, kindly read chapter 6 (six) of Glimpses of Vedic Metaphysics for on line reading and even taking print at no cost. Website is http://wwww. sabhlokcity. com/metaphysics/ The book is also accessible through Search Engines of Google.com, yahoo.com and Lulu.com. Please render divine and noble service and forward it other seekers of Vedic knowledge known to you.     To: aryayouthgroup@ yahoogroups. com From: adityahuja47@ yahoo.co. in Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 14:48:00 +0530 Subject: Re: [aryayouthgroup] Re: Location of Individual Soul in Human Bodyh   I would request Shri Prem Sabhlok to elaborate, what is 'Maya' ?   And what precisely are the differences, when three different terms - Soul, Aatma and Jeev are used in whatever has been posted by him ???   --- On Wed, 14/4/10, BHAVESH <bcmerja@gmail. com> wrote: From: BHAVESH <bcmerja@gmail. com> Subject: [aryayouthgroup] Re: Location of Individual Soul in Human Body To: aryayouthgroup@ yahoogroups. com Date: Wednesday, 14 April, 2010, 2:53 PM   Thanks for your comments! Would you please furnish reference of Veda mantra in which KUNDALINI is mentioned? It appears that you believe Jeeva different than Aatmaa. But in reality Jeeva, Aatmaa, Jeevatmaa are synonyms of the Individual soul. Sometimes the word Aatmaa is used for God also as has been used at many places in Upanishads. Aatmaa (the Individual soul) is not omniscient. Only God = Ishwar = Paramatma = Brahman is omniscient. Brahman is called the source of Divine knowledge. Aatmaa - Jeeva acquires naimittik knowledge from God & His Vedas, Gurus, Acharyas, etc. It appears you are influenced by Shankar Neo-Vedant or Awaitvaad. = Bhavesh Merja   --- In aryayouthgroup@ yahoogroups. com, Prem Sabhlok <psabhlok@...> wrote: > > > Vedas mention human being as tri-ani-pada- three bodies in one- causal, spiritual and gross/material body. Human senses and sense organs are in the gross body. Spirit (energy principle-Jeev) including Kundalni- live in the subtle body and Atma (soul) resides near the heart in the causal body. > > > > Atma is omniscient principle and contains all the knowledge of Vedas, being Vachispatiah- one can communicate with Atma to get Vedic knowledge. Rsis and Munnies of yore could communicate with their souls and left behind for the mankind Vedic knowledge. > > > > For communication with the soul, crossing of five Kosha (subtle and gross sheaths) is mentioned. Human being under the vehement effect of Maya which creates Golden lid and hides the truth and makes human beings to live under the illusion of comfort in this vast turbulent sea of matter can not communicate with thier real self Atma. > > > > regards > > Prem Sabhlok > > > > > > > To: aryayouthgroup@ yahoogroups. com > From: bcmerja@... > Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 11:10:15 +0000 > Subject: [aryayouthgroup] Location of Individual Soul in Human Body > > > > > > Maharshi Swami Dayananda has written in his "Rigvedadi Bhashya Bumika" that God is to be found or experienced in the "hridaya-pradesh" (space in the heart-region) in the chest. This is mentioned in Hindi portion of the book, but not mentioned in its Sanskrit portion. Therefore, a few scholars believe that this statement appearing in the Hindi portion is not valid and genuine. But majority of Arya scholars are of the opinion that this statement made in Hindi is as valid as the Sanskrit portion. > > However, we don't find any other clear mention any where in Swami Dayananda's works that the Individual Soul resides there in the said "hridaya-pradesh" (space in the heart-region) . > > Therefore, a controversy about the exact location of individual soul in human body still persists amongst the Vedic scholars. Recently Sri Acharya Anand Prakash (Arsha Sodha Sansthan - Aliabad) has written a small Hindi book "Sharir Men Jivatma ka Sthan" (location of individual soul in human body) of 44 pages on this issue in which he has tried to demonstrate that the individual soul resides in head in "Ajna Chakra", and not in the chest region. In this book he has placed an essay on the same topic written by renowned scholar late Sri Pandit Yudhishthir Mimansak in support of his views. > > Many other scholars of repute believe that whatever is written by Swami Dayananda in Hindi in this matter is absolutely correct. > > The deliberations involved in this controversy are very serious in nature involving psychology, physiology, mysticism, Ayurveda, philology, grammar, logic, scriptural evidences, etc. > > Learned persons may ponder over this issue and try to throw useful light on it. > > = Bhavesh Merja

Shree Hari

 

Dear Nagaji Ram Ram!

 

Forwarding a note from Arjun Tuteja, pls comment on this subject!

 

Traitvad vs. Advait and Location of Individual Soul in Human Body!

Humble regards,
Madan

 

[Kartik Subbarao]

On 07/09/2010 01:09 PM, naga narayana wrote:
> Abhi / Kartik / Lakshmi / ... others,
> I truly enjoyed my visit thank to all your enthusiasm in the subject. I
> am sorry I could not get to answer some of your queries thanks to the
> time and engagements. You had asked some questions regarding Adwaita and
> its nemesis in phylosophical circles. I am forwarding one of my
> responses to similar questions raised recently in the Arya Samaj (Late
> Dayananda Saraswati) forum. I thought this may address your
> concerns/questions regarding how I look at Adwaita as. IT IS PRETTY
> LENGTHY ... hope you have patience to go through it :).

When I first started to read the thread from the bottom of this message,
it didn't look promising. I didn't find much of interest/value in what
they were debating and how they were debating it. Then I read your
comments and, thankfully, found them a lot better to read :-)

Some thoughts:

> A debate cannot settle any dispute...but awareness can!

I really like how you respond to the debate not with some contrived
intellectual argument (to which the ego can always respond with more
argument), but rather with an appeal to awareness, that invites readers
to broaden their own perspectives (which is ultimately the point of all
of these discussions!).

> No fragments can remain there as IT remains ALL-INCLUSIVE in-spite of

> being ALL-EXCLUSIVE ... IT IS EVERYTHING WHILE NOTHING CAN BE THAT!.

This reminds me of Bhagavad Gita 9.05 where Krishna makes a very similar
subtle point to Arjuna (all-inclusive in spite of being all-exclusive).

I like how you frame the "seat of consciousness" discussion in the more
general terms of egoic places of identification (e.g. chakras, gunas,
etc). You are what you identify as/with.

> For me the whole universe is like a bolero of cosmic entities
> marching out of THAT ranging their existence from microscopic to
> macroscpic appearance; remaining in perfect harmony in spite of their
> apparent diversity and perpetual variance; and marching back to THAT
> perpetually to retain its integrity in the cosmic symphony of
> Vishwaroopa.

Wonderful :-) All we need is Maurice Ravel's background music for the
full effect:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOkuea1wExA

(There are better orchestral performances of Bolero, but the video
accompanying this is really on target!)

Welcome to sankethi-spirituality, great intro post!! :-)

Cheers,

-Kartik

[Yelleshpur Jayaram]

Thanks for sharing this. the origin of universe particularly the ring of fire

Jayaram

"The happiest people don't necessarily have the best of everything. They just make the best of everything."
Dr Jayaram
(Dr. Jay)

--- On Fri, 7/9/10, Kartik Subbarao <subb...@computer.org> wrote:

[Yelleshpur Dathatri]

Dear Dr, Naga Narayana: I am happy to see your writing. The answers are profound and gave me some education on some of the things. I am now more convinced that we essentially have to have some sanskrit lessons through this forum or otherwise.

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

Namaskara

Dathatri

[Kartik Subbarao]

[Trimming the headers of duplicate addresses already included in the
mailing list]

There is one more part of this message that I want to comment on, which
I found very uplifting and insightful to read:

On 07/09/2010 01:09 PM, naga narayana wrote:

> Everything as a matter fact, although revealed with their apparent
> perceivable forms, transcend all the existential as well as
> non-existential barriers of body, mind and desire being the witness and
> transcend the very notion of manifestation to be The Witness of all that
> transcends the very witness. "Eeshaavaasyamidam sarvam" - everything is
> dwelt by THAT and hence there is no room for anything else anywhere.
> Then how can "a soul" dwell anywhere? If there is a notion of a soul
> residing somewhere, the very soul is dwelt by THAT and hence THAT alone
> dwells everywhere and everywhence. Nothing can ever manifest unless THAT
> resides there first. Nothing can ever attain anything unless THAT
> recieves the same first. THAT remains the nourisher of everything being
> the origin, boundary as well as destiny for everything. No wonder why
> the Upanishads wonder ... in spite being unmoving IT remains faster than
> the fastest, the mind, to be everywhere one could ever go to recieve and
> support the same ... even the cosmic powers cannot outrun THAT as they
> also need the same support to be what they are.
> NOTHING can ever precede THAT ... and, NOTHING can ever proceed beyond

> THAT � THAT IS THERE EVERYWHERE EVERYWHENCE across the and beyond both

> space and time. That is the only way THAT can outrun everything in the
> universe concurrently. Being all-pervasive IT outruns all the
> ever-transcient universe. In fact, THAT is the very source of all
> nourishment and support that keeps this universe with integrity. IT
> saves the universe from disintegration by binding the universe to be one
> with ITSELF eternally.

Beautiful, just beautiful!

It's an understatement to say how difficult it is to communicate about
the infinite in a finite medium. This is the kind of paragraph that
keeps your mind in a fluid state, allowing it to be lightweight and
receptive to the deeper truths conveyed.

Regards,

-Kartik