Brainstorming about App Marketplace to drive Sandstorm adoption

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Pro7Tech

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Nov 29, 2016, 10:12:47 PM11/29/16
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Kenton and the Sandstorm Community,

First of all I want to extend my appreciation for the creativity and incredible value that Sandstorm brings to the software world.

And just wanted to share an idea that could help spur adoption of this revolutionary platform.

What if there was a Kickstarter-marketplace for app porting? It seems like certain people would like certain apps ported and don't have the time to do it or others have the time but don't have the funds to invest in such a project. If we could match the people with funds with the people who have time to port we could help grow the app ecosystem in Sandstorm. And if that ecosystem grows the value of sandstorm grows more useful with each new app.

Having a marketplace around sandstorm work would also incentivize the adoption of the platform by providing developers multiple ways to make money with sandstorm. This might be similar to the marketplace that grew up around Wordpress that helped drive it’s massive adoption.

Just throwing the idea out there to see if there is any interest... cheers!

we...@fastmail.com

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Nov 30, 2016, 1:39:35 AM11/30/16
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I actually proposed something like this before: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sandstorm-dev/F0dHboYs8Cc

 

I personally would be happy to throw some money at Sandstorm related projects, the challenge is finding a method where developers can be confident they would get paid for the work, and users could be confident they'd get a strong quality result.

 

Sent from my Windows 10 phone

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Jacob Weisz

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Nov 30, 2016, 1:39:35 AM11/30/16
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As a note, I created the Sandstorm Ports in Progress Wekan, which isn't too often updated by people, and projects definitely do get abandoned, but it's a good place to see who's at least tried or shown interest in working on a port project: https://oasis.sandstorm.io/shared/3T7_gZPyWs9BuuTNoWRSa3ZqLv6F-4-IdYUvKYmcs-y

It would be conceivably reasonable to place a column on the far right to indicate an app you'd pay money for or something, and then people could reach out if they were interested in taking you up on it.

Probably the biggest thing hurting that Wekan as a resource is visibility, and maybe that without notifications, nobody goes back and checks it regularly. Not sure if the new Wekan SPK supports notifications, I was kinda nervous about updating the grain.

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On Tue, Nov 29, 2016, at 09:36 PM, we...@fastmail.com wrote:

I actually proposed something like this before: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sandstorm-dev/F0dHboYs8Cc

 

I personally would be happy to throw some money at Sandstorm related projects, the challenge is finding a method where developers can be confident they would get paid for the work, and users could be confident they'd get a strong quality result.

 

Sent from my Windows 10 phone

 

From: Pro7Tech
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2016 9:12 PM
To: Sandstorm Development
Subject: [sandstorm-dev] Brainstorming about App Marketplace to driveSandstorm adoption

 

Kenton and the Sandstorm Community,

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Pro7Tech

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Nov 30, 2016, 10:35:14 PM11/30/16
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Jacob, glad to see there is interest for this.  We wanted to pursue this idea further, but are lacking time ATM.

It just seems like there is plenty of money to support making Sandstorm the best business platform out there if companies invested into building on an open platform instead of the current shorted-sighted investment into closed-source business platforms.

Microsoft Office 365 gives us some idea around the market size and value for a Sandstorm business platform:
For the quarter ending September 2016, Microsoft reports Office 365 had 24.0 million subscribers, helping add to the 6.7 billion revenue in the productivity and business category:

Or for another popular platform from a smaller company, see Bitrix24 (https://www.bitrix24.com/): "Bitrix24 is world’s most cost effective intranet, CRM and collaboration platform that comes with 35+ worktools. Over 100,000 companies have signed up with Bitrix24 last year." It costs $4,990 for a standard onsite install and $14,990 for the Enterprise on premise install.

If a fraction of those businesses invested in Sandstorm they could escape vendor lock-in and have better tools at a better price.

The only question is how to incentivize the market.

One idea could, could be a patron system, where multiple people/companies split costs for hiring a dedicated developer for the project.

Evan You, the author of open-source VueJS, has 120 patrons and makes $9,050 per month:

Maybe Sandstorm could host a public list of developers who are interested in receiving Patreon support.  As developers contributed more, they could float higher in the list, and receive even more monthly support from people.

Wish we had the time to pursue further, but maybe can invest more time/funding into this in the future.  

Nolan Darilek

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Dec 1, 2016, 7:38:27 AM12/1/16
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As someone who has ported a handful of apps to Sandstorm, I'd love to see this. Sometimes my ports lag behind releases or experience long-standing issues, and working two jobs I just don't have the time to give them. If they pulled in beer money or more, then I could give them a bit more effort than I can as uncompensated open source efforts. I've thought about setting up a Patreon for myself but haven't been super confident in my ability to pitch it.


In a few weeks, some folks and I will begin developing a platform co-op business. I'm going to encourage that we adopt Sandstorm for our business and governance systems, and if we take investment then I plan on encouraging us to earmark some of our funds to pay me/other members to improve existing Sandstorm apps with an eye towards building more accessible alternatives to the inaccessible Slack and Trello. This is in line with several cooperative principles so I'm hopeful that it can happen.


But aside from that, there's no reason I can think of that this needs to be built by Sandstorm the company, who all seem to be very overworked just building the core platform. :) It can be a third party effort, and I'm happy to help with it if others are onboard. Unfortunately I lack the connections to promote such a thing, but throwing together an MVP where projects can be proposed and bounties listed would be fairly easy. I can't afford to do it if we don't have the reach/connections to promote it, though.


Maybe this too could be a co-op. After last month's political disaster I'm kind of in a co-op-building mood to counter that in a very small way.

Kenton Varda

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Dec 4, 2016, 11:06:34 PM12/4/16
to Pro7Tech, Sandstorm Development
Hi all,

I really like the idea of bounties and crowdfunding to get apps ported. Unfortunately, among all the things that the Sandstorm core team is working on, we haven't been able to find time to set up anything like this. Looking at our current plans, I don't think we're likely to have time in the near term. :(

If someone in the community wanted to organize something, though, we would be very happy to promote it and help however we can!

Note that one tricky issue is going to be judging whether a port is sufficiently "sandstorm-y". Getting an app to run in Sandstorm is usually fairly easy, but getting it to use the appropriate Sandstorm APIs e.g. for notifications, sharing, etc. is more work. Ports that don't do this integration are generally not very pleasant to use, so we'll need some way to make sure packagers have the proper incentive to do this work. Also, there should be some incentive to update the package regularly.

-Kenton

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Nolan Darilek

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Dec 5, 2016, 2:17:46 PM12/5/16
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Great! I've had a bit of interest in this from the platform co-op folks. Glad to see that you'd be interested in promoting us if we did something.


Now we need to investigate feasibility. If you don't mind sharing, I've seen a few "professional services" references in your meeting minutes. Are these services development/port-related, and if so, would you be willing to share those contacts privately with me? Or do you know of any commercial demand for greenfield app development, or commercial need for ports?


Thanks.

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Andrew Jacobs

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Dec 5, 2016, 8:30:02 PM12/5/16
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Who are the platform co-op folks?  I'd be very interested in helping out with this effort.  I'm switching back to contracting very soon and will be carving out time to work on Sandstorm-related projects.

Andrew


On Monday, December 5, 2016 at 11:17:46 AM UTC-8, Nolan Darilek wrote:

Great! I've had a bit of interest in this from the platform co-op folks. Glad to see that you'd be interested in promoting us if we did something.


Now we need to investigate feasibility. If you don't mind sharing, I've seen a few "professional services" references in your meeting minutes. Are these services development/port-related, and if so, would you be willing to share those contacts privately with me? Or do you know of any commercial demand for greenfield app development, or commercial need for ports?


Thanks.



On 12/04/2016 10:06 PM, Kenton Varda wrote:
Hi all,

I really like the idea of bounties and crowdfunding to get apps ported. Unfortunately, among all the things that the Sandstorm core team is working on, we haven't been able to find time to set up anything like this. Looking at our current plans, I don't think we're likely to have time in the near term. :(

If someone in the community wanted to organize something, though, we would be very happy to promote it and help however we can!

Note that one tricky issue is going to be judging whether a port is sufficiently "sandstorm-y". Getting an app to run in Sandstorm is usually fairly easy, but getting it to use the appropriate Sandstorm APIs e.g. for notifications, sharing, etc. is more work. Ports that don't do this integration are generally not very pleasant to use, so we'll need some way to make sure packagers have the proper incentive to do this work. Also, there should be some incentive to update the package regularly.

-Kenton
On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 7:12 PM, Pro7Tech <pro7tech...@gmail.com> wrote:
Kenton and the Sandstorm Community,

First of all I want to extend my appreciation for the creativity and incredible value that Sandstorm brings to the software world.

And just wanted to share an idea that could help spur adoption of this revolutionary platform.

What if there was a Kickstarter-marketplace for app porting? It seems like certain people would like certain apps ported and don't have the time to do it or others have the time but don't have the funds to invest in such a project.  If we could match the people with funds with the people who have time to port we could help grow the app ecosystem in Sandstorm.  And if that ecosystem grows the value of sandstorm grows more useful with each new app.

Having a marketplace around sandstorm work would also incentivize the adoption of the platform by providing developers multiple ways to make money with sandstorm.  This might be similar to the marketplace that grew up around Wordpress that helped drive it’s massive adoption.

Just throwing the idea out there to see if there is any interest... cheers!

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Kenton Varda

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Dec 13, 2016, 12:03:52 AM12/13/16
to Nolan Darilek, Sandstorm-dev
On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:16 AM, Nolan Darilek <no...@thewordnerd.info> wrote:

Now we need to investigate feasibility. If you don't mind sharing, I've seen a few "professional services" references in your meeting minutes. Are these services development/port-related, and if so, would you be willing to share those contacts privately with me? Or do you know of any commercial demand for greenfield app development, or commercial need for ports?

So, the idea here is to tell "enterprise"-ish customers that we (Sandstorm Development Group) will happily do whatever they want us to do for an appropriate price. The price we're looking at here -- to make it worthwhile for us to drop what we're doing and do someone else's bidding -- is something like $1000/engineer/day. Unfortunately I imagine that price is a bit steep for the community to pay. :/

For the record I have no problem with community members undercutting our pricing on this. :)

-Kenton

Jacob Weisz

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Feb 13, 2017, 6:53:22 PM2/13/17
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So, this is a thing that I whipped up as a little bit of an experiment to see if people are interested: http://sandsheep.com/bb (This is actually a Wekan grain on Oasis, but this redirects to a share link for easy convenience!)

I came up with four categories of things that I think people will probably want to request relating to Sandstorm, and I seeded the list with $475 worth of bounty offerings of my own. In most cases of this, I presume my offering alone will not be worth the effort required for some of these, but the goal, of course, is that if others add there own offers on top of these, highly desired items may equate an amount of money that inspires a dev to put in the requisite effort.

Nolan, there's actually at least a couple apps I know you've either done or worked on but never released to the market I'd probably be interested in. Hugo and Alexandria in particular. I'd possibly be willing to pitch some beer money your way. I actually really would like to donate to some existing Sandstorm app devs for things I use.

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Jan Jambor

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Feb 14, 2017, 1:50:23 AM2/14/17
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Hey Jacob,

Thanks for starting this experiment. I have as well some stuff I would like to see in Sandstorm but am not able to do on my own and I’m also willing to add funds to existing ideas I simply like.

There are immediately a couple of questions:
- Is the idea that others now also add tasks to the board or add funds to existing tasks?
- Is there any need of a more formal process to ensure people not only say they would pay but actually pay when something is done?
- Is there any need to make more advertisement in both areas: developers who might be interested in doing stuff and people who might be willing to add funds to tasks to make them more attractive to solve?
- Are there any existing bounty platforms where it would make sense to include this as a project? (Why build an own thing when there is already something with useful features e.g. payment process, visibility)

Cheers
JJ

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Jacob Weisz

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Feb 14, 2017, 2:00:07 AM2/14/17
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- Absolutely. Add tasks you want, if you want to add to tasks, comment on the existing task and state your offer, and then edit the title to equal the sum of the offers for that task. Even if you add a fresh task, leave a comment with the amount, like I did, to distinguish from the sum in the title of  the card.

- This is definitely honor system for now. If an offer is old, a developer should definitely contact them and make sure they still plan to go through with it. It's kinda hard to "police" this except for laying shame and condemnation on non-payers, because obviously some people also might not finish work or produce a very poor product. People need to talk to make sure the conditions are well understood. This is just meant to assemble the conversation.

- Maybe. If people want to effectively crowdfund their app, they could probably put a card there and say [$0] to start with, and see if people add to it. I would probably contribute a bit to these regardless of my need because I really want to see the app selection expand in general.

- There are probably other platforms but they are not in Sandstorm yet. =) I also don't feel like we should heavily restrict how payment is done. Some sandcats are particularly fond of operating in Bitcoin-type payment methods, some like myself would rather PayPal/Google Wallet/etc. I don't want to scare off the possibility of something being [$500 + 1 BTC] or the like. As I said, people will need to communicate on work being attempted, payment being requested, how to handle that payment.

I think at least at the moment, Sandstorm is a fairly close community, and I'd like to hope this can work and be beneficial to people without having to regulate and manage it.

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Jacob Weisz

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Feb 14, 2017, 11:35:41 PM2/14/17
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As a status update, we now have a total of $905 in bounty offers up on the board!

In addition to http://sandsheep.com/bb I figured I'd make a shortlink to the Ports In Progress Wekan, which is at http://sandsheep.com/pip where there are a variety of half-finished app ports listed. I'd probably pitch in something towards the completion and publishing of any apps currently listed there as well.

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Jacob Weisz

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Feb 21, 2017, 7:07:58 PM2/21/17
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So, I'm going to continue throwing money at this until I start losing money doing it.

- Nolan has mentioned his own apps being worth working on if beer money was involved, but there aren't bounties up for his apps.
- Kenton has mentioned it's important developers are encouraged to update their apps.

I wanted to figure out how to encourage :general app development work: for Sandstorm, try to avoid offering a level that would run me broke if a lot of people take me up on it, but still kinda be at least worth bothering to process the payment. Based on the average publishing rate on the market right now, this should be more or less sustainable, but if Sandstorm app dev becomes wildly popular, I won't be able to continue this. So, this is subject to change (I'll post here and on the bounty board if it changes), but I am going to offer up as bounties for those who would like to claim them:

- $20 for a new app published to the App Market
- $10 for a substantial app update published to the App Market

It's not a lot, but my hope is it will encourage people to submit updates regularly, and maybe publish some of those apps people just haven't cleaned up and made market-ready.

Conditions include but may not be limited to if I feel like my donation offer is being taken advantage of: Must meet Kenton's publishing guidelines, and be published to the app market. Must be open source. New apps must be substantially different than existing apps on the store (minor forks aren't eligible). Updates must be substantial, either like a new feature or in the case of an app port, a major version update. (WordPress 4.6.x -> 4.7.x would be eligible, WordPress 4.7 -> 4.7.1 would not.) Each app is only eligible to claim this once every 60 days. This offer does not stack with my bounty offers for specific apps. Some of these guidelines are subjective, and I am the determiner of their eligibility, as this is a donation offer more than a payment for work. Requests for this donation must be made to in...@jacobweisz.com or on the bounty board, as I will not be giving money to people who don't want it.

You can claim for an update to an app port published by someone else, provided that you do all the work to update their app to the newer version, including testing that there is no breakage in Sandstorm or data loss from the previous version. Aka, if you provide a PR that lets the packager just hit "spk pack" and publish, once the update is published, you can claim the bounty. This is to encourage updates to apps like Ghost where the packager is accepting PRs but hasn't tackled the project themselves to fix new versions for Sandstorm.

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Kenton Varda

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Feb 27, 2017, 4:31:04 PM2/27/17
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Hey Jake,

FWIW, if you are coordinating how it is used, I am happy to provide $500/month of my own cash to support bounties. I don't have time to spend thinking about it (since I want to devote all my spare time to coding Sandstorm features), but I have plenty of cash and trust you to do the thinking. :)

-Kenton

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Jacob Weisz

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Mar 6, 2017, 10:58:08 AM3/6/17
to Kenton Varda, Sandstorm-dev
I am a little hesitant to take on deciding how to spend someone else's money. It makes me kinda uncomfortable. I feel like the best way to do something like this is for perhaps you to specify some addition to my "x per app, x per update" offers, which aren't specific bounties, and then for me to help manage/arrange payment, since I already need to collect payment info to pay out my own offers.

It also seems totally reasonable to have a hard cap on how much you are willing to pay out in a month. I'm hoping I picked my numbers to where it's unlikely to become unreasonable super quickly, but there's definitely the possibility I'd have to revise my offers if Sandstorm app publishing dramatically increased in frequency.

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Jan Jambor

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Mar 6, 2017, 11:09:29 AM3/6/17
to Jacob Weisz, Kenton Varda, Sandstorm-dev
I totally understand Jakobs point here. While you maybe are willing to be a community manager for the whole topic you might have an issue going after all contacts, ensuring money is transferred etc. And here you are still not talking about the cases where developer and sponsor don’t have a different view on the complete status of a task.

I guess it’s either a pure 1 on 1 community thing where people figure things out on their own or it must be hosted on a platform which is taking care about the whole money transfer process and stuff. Otherwise you will not get happy with this.


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Nolan Darilek

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Mar 6, 2017, 11:45:21 AM3/6/17
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I'm in need of a bit of extra cash and am thinking of taking this on. Additionally, there are some apps I'd really like to see on Sandstorm, and while I don't have the funds to support others in doing the work, maybe my own need plus some financial encouragement might help me to contribute more. Sorry, I'm genuinely not trying to squeeze folks for money, I'm just strapped for cash myself, and not particularly interested in hustling hard for the opportunity to be someone else's employee. :) So if folks want to see this done, I'm informally offering my time in exchange for bounties.


As a status update on where my various projects are, I have an almost complete rewrite of Alexandria (ebook reader) that eliminates the dependency on Meteor/Mongo and adds PDF support, which I've been using for the past few weeks now. A bit of polish would get it to a state where I felt comfortable releasing it, but I just haven't done so yet. Financial encouragement might help, otherwise I'll probably get to it on my own in a few weeks. Hugo is also done in that it gives you a Git endpoint to which a site's repo can be pushed, then builds/publishes the site from that. There is a Caddy-based web admin interface that I think may be ready to integrate, but since it isn't something I explicitly need, I haven't put in the work yet.


Additionally, I recently started doing some consulting for a small software company, and just about every damned tool they use is inaccessible. I've considered doing a Toggl replacement for timetracking. I've also pondered a support ticket tracker, something that might be associated with a support@ email address, so support requests could be tracked and responded to via Sandstorm. Something that took in a bit of data and spit out an invoice might also be useful for me, too. I'd be interested in working on these or other projects for bounties, provided the scope of the bounty is reasonably specified.


Also, I'd probably need someone to come along and clean up my Bootstrap-based designs. Usually this involves tweaking column widths and aligning things so they look nicer. I also couldn't do logo graphics. Screenshots are a bit easier, but I never know how much information about my environment is leaked when I screenshot a window, so I generally let folks who can see take them, ensure they look good, and black out any details that detract from what is being shown.

Jacob Weisz

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Mar 6, 2017, 11:54:10 AM3/6/17
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Nolan,

Pretty sure Nena is still willing to help with logo graphics and such.

I'm definitely hoping that my "bounty for any new app publishing" type offer is helpful for developers like you who have a few different projects out there that may not specifically be on the bounty list, but are still likely useful. At present, Nena has doubled my offer of $20 for a new app publishing, so it's at $40 right now, and I'm not sure if Kenton may indeed jump on this concept too. I want to mention that my relatively low offer is in part based on concern of overcommitting, if I am going to use the app, I will probably throw in more.

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Arjan

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Mar 7, 2017, 2:44:51 PM3/7/17
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Good idea. I added a $20 bounty to Firefox Sync Server.

The Bounty Board description says "You should make sure to reach out to people offering bounties before starting a project to make sure you can reach them [..]". Is this already possible through Oasis itself?

-- Arjan

Jacob Weisz

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Mar 7, 2017, 2:50:58 PM3/7/17
to Arjan, Sandstorm Development
I believe you can @ tag them on the Wekan in a comment and they should receive a notification. Everyone who has offered a bounty on the board is obligatorily a member of the board, and hence should be taggable.

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Arjan

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Mar 7, 2017, 3:12:44 PM3/7/17
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On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 8:50:58 PM UTC+1, Jacob Weisz wrote:
I believe you can @ tag them on the Wekan in a comment and they should receive a notification. Everyone who has offered a bounty on the board is obligatorily a member of the board, and hence should be taggable.

Do notifications also go to the account's email? I only visit Oasis sporadically, so it might take awhile for me to see a notice otherwise.

-- Arjan

Jacob Weisz

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Mar 7, 2017, 3:39:09 PM3/7/17
to Arjan, Sandstorm Development
Currently just the notification tray. I believe the goal is to offer more configuration for notifications to Sandstorm in the future. Right now I think the community is small enough that we can figure out how to get a hold of everybody if needbe. Most everyone who has placed bounties are here on this list, for example, where emails can be found.

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Kenton Varda

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Mar 12, 2017, 12:03:42 AM3/12/17
to Jacob Weisz, Sandstorm-dev
On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:58 AM, Jacob Weisz <goo...@jacobweisz.com> wrote:
I am a little hesitant to take on deciding how to spend someone else's money. It makes me kinda uncomfortable. I feel like the best way to do something like this is for perhaps you to specify some addition to my "x per app, x per update" offers, which aren't specific bounties, and then for me to help manage/arrange payment, since I already need to collect payment info to pay out my own offers.

OK, let's say I'll match whatever you pay out?
 
It also seems totally reasonable to have a hard cap on how much you are willing to pay out in a month. I'm hoping I picked my numbers to where it's unlikely to become unreasonable super quickly, but there's definitely the possibility I'd have to revise my offers if Sandstorm app publishing dramatically increased in frequency.

Eh, I think there will be plenty of time to see that coming and discontinue the offer.

-Kenton
 
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