Pronunciation of the word ज्ञान

[Shreyas Munshi]

Respected scholars in the group

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Regards.

[Ashu Singh]

there are only two modes of pronunciation 1)gya 2) jna the word gyana can be jnana during school days we were taught to pronounce ज्ञ as jna not gya hence jna seems the correct pronunciation and ज्ञान must be pronounced as jnana not gyana it's my understanding may be wrong I am open to receive guidance Jai Shree Ram Jayatu sanatanam Jayatu Sanskritam Jayatu Bharatam

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[kenp]

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%9C%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%9E%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A8

In Gujarati some pronounce it as gnAna  or gnyAna

[F J]

The correct pronunciation is gnyaana

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[Shreyas Munshi]

Thanks but /g/ (ग) is a velar कण्ठ्य plosive. Why combine it with the post-alveolarpalatal तालव्य nasal IPA/ɲ/ and not with /ज/(IPA /dz/ which belongs to the same class as /ɲ /? Is it because we don't know the correct pronunciation of the च-वर्ग अनुनासिक?

Please guide me.

Regards 

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[Shreyas Munshi]

Yes Sir. And that is, in my opinion, not correct. To me it seems, the incorrect pronunciation has come about among Gujaratis (and among  speakers of Hindi and Marathi, as well) because of their inability to produce the palatal sound correctly. 

I would love to watch a video of some scholar pronouncing the   તાલવ્ય અનુનાસિક the palatal nasal.

Could you kindly oblige Sir?

Regards.

On Fri, 23 Jun 2023, 20:11 kenp, <drk...@gmail.com> wrote:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%9C%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%9E%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A8

In Gujarati some pronounce it as gnAna  or gnyAna

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[P R Iyer]

Pronunciation of the Sanskrit letter ज्ञ। This is not a single letter. It is a compound letter obtained from two individual consonants. When we type  in a device ज् and ञ without gap we get ज्ञ। (You must try and confirm) . After confirming only, read further. So in the pronunciation of ज्ञ, both ज् and ञ should be there.  The challenge is how to pronounce ञ /. First of all we should practice pronounciation of च्,छ्,ज्,झ् several times one by one slowly and throwing the air through mouth. . The secret of correct pronounciation of ञ् is in correct pronunciation of  च्,छ्,ज्,झ्/  After practising ten times,  pronounce ञ् also in the same way but by throwing the air through nose every time. Then practice विज्-ज्ञानं ten times daily.
Please note that the starting letter of ज्ञ is ज्
The above write up is for you to write it by pen or by typing as if you are teaching your friends. I have learnt the pronunciation of ज्ञ by writing the above several times. You can also learn.
Thank you.
P R IYER
24.6.23

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[P R Iyer]

Mr. Shreyas Muni

The reply is not clear to me. What is the NOT CORRECT sentence? If you specify I will guide you.If you practice the instructions carefully you will be able to pronounce the anunasikam of च वर्ग  and later following further instructions you will be able to pronounce विज्-ज्ञान and ज्-ज्ञान correctly.

P R IYER

24.6.23

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[Shreyas Munshi]

If you are able to pronounce ज्ञ correctly, you are an exception, Sir. I have heard scores of people, including Sanskrit teachers and also swami-s, pronouncing ज्ञान as gnyaan or gyaan or dnaan.

Your pronouncing विज्ञान as विज्ज्ञान is not understood, since you say that ज्ञ itself is a compound of two sounds. Perhaps you meant विज्यांन ? If so, विज्यांन seems to be the answer.

Like च छ ज झ, how to pronounce ञ? There is a nasal there. I can only produce /यं/.

English dictionaries teach pronunciation of a syllable by showing a video.

Can you Sir make a video of pronouncing ञ and post it. I have failed because I have never heard the pronunciation of ञ in my life of 86 years. I have only heard people pronounce it as Gujarati gnya, or Hindi gya or Marathi dna.

You seem to have a better understanding. Will you kindly post the said video and oblige?

Regards.

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[P R Iyer]

Dear Mr Shreyas ,

I understood your doubts. I recommend that you read my document line by line and follow the guidelines.

Step 1. In your mobile, please type without gap ज् and ञ. The mobile will give you the letter ज्ञ। 

After doing this please reply whether you got the answer.

Thank you

P.R.IYER

25.6.23

7.48 am

[Shreyas Munshi]

Sir,

I have done this typing out many years (almost 18 years) before you said to me, when at the age of 68, I did my MA in Linguistics.

I have no doubt about how the ज्ञ is formed: phoneticians describe it as voiced palatal plosive ज combining with the palatal nasal ञ. Typing ज् +ञ gives its graphic form (written form) not the spoken form which I want to learn.

My question is how do you pronounce it (speak it out) in speech? I have heard people, including teachers, professors and swamis, speaking out ज्ञ as Gujarati 'gnyaan' or  Hindi 'gyaan' or Marathi 'dnaan'.

I want to learn the correct way of speaking out ञ, and then the word ज्ञान।

Please tell me how you yourself speak it out. 

As a favour, kindly show by means of a video of your speaking act, or show graphically by writing the English spelling without using 'n' which is a separate 'dental nasal'. 

You may also show it by using devanagari letters.

I am a learner for life.

Regards.

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[James Kirkbond]

Jnana, Vijnana and Prajnana and now the  Grammatically the word jnana is derived from the root of the Sanskrit verb "jna0" which means to know, to investigate and to recognize. When a suffix "ana" is added, the word convey the meanings of knowing, knowledge, sacred knowledge, consciousness, knowledge leading to liberation, etc. When a preposition "vi0" is added to the word jnana then it denotes the meanings such as knowledge, worldly knowledge, wisdom, intelligence, discernment, understanding etc., The sciences are called by the word vijnana in India as they demand a methodological study of the subjects. Thus  Jnanadevatu kaivalyam.  Papmanam prajahi hyenam jnanavijnana nashanam.  Jnana vijnana triptatma kutastho vijitendriyayaha - BG VI-8

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[P R Iyer]

Step2. Ok. ज्ञ is a combination letter of  two consonants ज् and ञ . So ज्ञ is a conjugant.Both are from the PALATAL group. (च,छ,ज,झ,ञ). They are खरं,अतिखरं,मृदु,घोषं,अनुनासिकं. For pronounciation of च,छ,ज,झ , we keep the the tounge palatal and throw the air  out through the month. FOR ञ, WE THROW  THE PALATAL AIR  OUT THROUGH THE NOSE. While pronouncing ञ care should be taken not to change the PALATAL position of tounge to dental (दन्त्यं) . *If care is taken to keep he tounge in PALATAL position and air is thrown out through nose one gets the pronounciation of ञ.* There is no न् or ग् or य involved in the pronounciation of palatal anunasikam. You will be successful if you try as above.

You can practice the words विज्-ज्ञानं/प्रज्-ज्ञानं/अज्-ज्ञानं etc  before trying ज्ञान्, ज्ञात्वा etc. In विज्-ज्ञानं/प्रज्-ज्ञानं/अज्-ज्ञानं the extra ज् is by आघात rule because next compound letter starts with ज्. After first ज् comes ज् of ज्ञानं. Another example for आघात is सूर्यप्-प्रकाश

P R IYER

25.6.23

5.32 pm

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[Shreyas Munshi]

Great. Excellent. Thank you. Now as a favour please write the spelling of pronunciation of ञ by using devanagari letters and/or English letters).

Regards.

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[kenp]

How to Pronounce ज्ञ in Sanskrit - 'gya' or 'gnya' or 'dnya' or 'jna'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2hReqbgsL0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3iCRxaNXz0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o63uPfPeEO4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1qCB48v044

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ifk3GSGDjow

[NathRao]

The problem is that ज् is an affricate, while  ञ   is a stop. I must confess that this sequence is beyond my abilities, and it seems to be beyond most others as well. To tell the truth, I am not sure I have ever heard such combination produced by anyone. The common workarounds are either (1) change  ञ to nasalized 'y' to match with affricate pronunciation of ज् , or (2) pronounce ज्  as a palatal stop (which is what 'gn' I think refers to).  (2) is definitely different from ग, though languages that distinguish between palatal and velar stops are not that common or familiar (Czech is said to distinguish between the two, but Wikipedia says that /g/ is not that common ). Consistently pronouncing English hard 'c' back in the throat is Germans are portrayed by the English (or Kissinger is/was mocked by US comedians), is similar to this distinction.

How people pronounced this 3000 years ago is not decidable, IMHO. And if it matters, historical linguists would say that at one point, ज् was pronounced as a palatal stop. [And it is just as likely that ज्ञ never had an affricate component: In Pali and many Prakrits, it seems to have been simplified ज्ञ to ञ.]

Regards

Nath

[Shreyas Munshi]

Sir,

Very true.

You say:" I have never heard anyone producing that combination". I totally agree with you. In my life of 86 years, I too have never heard anyone pronouncing the palatal nasal (तालव्य अनुनासिक) ञ (IPA /ɲ/. I have only heard gnya in Gujarati, gya in Hindi and dna in Marathi.

I want to learn the correct pronunciation of the IPA /ɲ/.

Regards.

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[Harry Spier]

S. K. Chatterjee wrote two articles both titled "The Pronounciation of Sanskrit" One in 1934 and one in1960 In both he discusses the pronounciation of ज्ञ .  I've attached both articles.  The relevant pages are page 343 in the older article (which is pdf page 11) and page 78 in the newer article which is pdf page 21.

Harry Spier

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[Mohan Chettoor]

In Malayalam, we pronounce ज्ञ as 'tna' which we believe is the correct one!😃

Mohan Chettoor 

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[Shreyas Munshi]

Thank you very much for letting me know that in Malayalam, ज्ञ is pronounced as 'tna'. It is news to me and it is interestingly intriguing!

In Sanskrit varnamala, the nasal in the च-वर्ग, the palatal nasal, is represented by the letter ञ (IPA /ɲ/). There must be, in Malayalam, a letter representing the same nasal sound. If so, kindly let me know how would one spell the Malayalam pronunciation of that letter. (Just as 'tna'=ज्ञ, what would the spelling be for the Malayalam palatal nasal?)

It seems to that it is the difference in pronunciation of the palatal nasal that has resulted in different pronunciation of ज्ञ।

Regards 

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[Shreyas Munshi]

Thank you Harry Sir. Will read the referred pages and get back to you.

Regards

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[Shreyas Munshi]

My email ref time 15.42 is in reply to Chettoor Sir. I forgot to mention it. क्षम्यताम्।

[Mohan Chettoor]

The corresponding Malayalam letter representing the  devanagari ञ  is 'ഞ' but I am not able to give the Malayalam pronunciation of that letter. It can be given only by audio recording. Even pronunciation of devanagari ञ , i.e. 'nja' is not the exact one but we are managing with that. Every language has its own special/unique letters which cannot be reproduced effectively in other languages. Coming to Malayalam again we have a special Letter 'ററ'. The single 'റ' has no counterpart in devanagari so also its double 'ററ'. (Their nearest cousins are 'ra' and 'tta'- and both cannot be reproduced in devanagari)

We have to live with such diversities in languages, culture, cuisine styles, festivals, culture etc.

Mohan Chettoor 

Mohan Chettoor 

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