Rigveda 08.100.11

[acsekar]

Not satisfied with the available translations in the net for the
following Shloka, I have attempted to make a literal tranlation with
reference to the Monier William online dictionary and selecting a
suitable substitute of Hindi word.

देवीं वाचमजनयन्त देवास्तां विश्वरूपाः पशवो वदन्ति |
सा नो मन्द्रेषमूर्जं दुहाना धेनुर्वागस्मानुप सुष्टुतैतु || ऋ.
08.100.11.

देवीं = देवी को।
वाचम् = utter a sound, call (ध्वनियों को।) (M.W. Page 937)
अजनयन्त = उत्पन्नों को। (जन् = to generate, beget, produce, create,
cause, M.W. Page 410, impf. /अजनयत्, 3rd Pl. of जन् =अजनयन्त)
देवाः = देवगण। (M.W. Page 492)
ताम् = उसको। (f. she, M.W. Page 434, Acc, Sig. of तद् = ताम् )
विश्वरूपा = various forms (बहुरूपी।) (M.W. Page 993)
पशवः = पशु।
वदन्ति = कहते हैं। (वद् = say, M.W. Page 916, 3rd pl. of वद् =
वदन्ति)
सा=वह (देवी)। (तद् M.W. Page 434, Nom. Sg. of तद् = सा)
नः=हमें। (अस्मद् M.W. Page 121, Dat. & Acc. of अस्मद् = नौ (Du), नः
(Pl)
मन्द्रे = base tone (स्थान) of the voice, M.W. Page 787 (मन्द।)
ईषम् = ईषको। (ईष = m. the month आश्विन; a son of the third मनु; a
servant of शिव, M.W.Page 171, Acc. Sg. of ईष् = ईषम्)
ऊर्जम् = बलको। (ऊर्ज = mfn. strong , powerful , eminent; strength,
vigour; m. N. of a month (= कार्त्तिक), M.W. Page 221, Acc. Sg. of
ऊर्ज = ऊर्जम्)
दुहाना = दूहे जाने में। (दुह् = to milk or squeeze out, M.W. Page
489, A1. दुहान्/अ , द्/उहान)
धेनुः=गाय। (M. W. Page 520)
वाक् = ध्वनि। (M.W. Page 936/ 1332)
अस्मान्=हमारे। (असम M.W. Page 128 pl. acc. अस्म्/आन्)
उप = near to, at, on, upon (ऊपर।) (M.W. Page 194)
सुष्टुता = correctly pronounced (सही उच्चारण।) (M.W. Page 1238)
एतु = gain by asking (करायें) || (verb: इ, M.W. Page 163, 3rd Sg. of इ
= एतु)

शाब्दिक अनुवाद
देवी को, उत्पन्न ध्वनियों को, देवगण उसको बहुरूपी पशु कहते हैं।
वह (देवी) हमें मन्द-ईष-बल को दूहे जाने में वाक् धेनु से हमारे सही
उच्चारण करायें ||

Following are the two available English translations in the net.

" Creator Lord Brahma and other devata brought forth Vagdevi (goddess
of Speech) to manifest communication. All beings use their abilities
to communicate through Vagdevi. May Vagdevi like an all-desire
fulfilling cow bless us with food, strength and faculty of speech?"

"The Gods have offered forth many loving vibrations to the Goddess.
All living beings call Her the form of the universe. May She who is
like the cow granting all desires, Giver of Bliss and Strength, the
form of all sound, may that Ultimate Goddess, being pleased with our
hymns, present Herself before us."

My queries to the learned group members are the following:

1) The meaning of the compound word मन्द्रेषमूर्जं (मन्द्र+ईषम्
+ऊर्जम्) is not clear, specially ईषम् in context of the text. An
interpretation of 'मन्द-मध्यम्-तीव्र' appears to be a consistent in
the context of speach (वाक्).
2) Any other comment on the translation.

Regards,

A.Chandrasekar

[S. L. Abhyankar]

नमो नमः !
सुभाषितानाम् अध्ययने या पद्धतिः मया उपयुज्यते तामेव अनुसृत्य एषः प्रयासः -

देवीं वाचमजनयन्त देवास्तां विश्वरूपाः पशवो वदन्ति |
सा नो मन्द्रेषमूर्जं  दुहाना धेनुर्वागस्मानुप सुष्टुतैतु || ऋ. 08.100.11.

१) सन्धि-विच्छेदान् कृत्वा सामासिक-शब्दानां पदानि च दर्शयित्वा -

देवीं वाचम् अजनयन्त देवाः ताम् विश्वरूपाः पशवः वदन्ति ।
सा नः मन्द्र-इषम् ऊर्जं दुहाना धेनुः वाक् अस्मान् उप सुष्ठुता एतु ।।

२) वाक्यांशशः अन्वयाः -
२-१) देवाः वाचम् देवीं अजनयन्त ।
२-२) विश्वरूपाः पशवः ताम् वदन्ति ।
२-३) सा वाक् मन्द्र-इषं ऊर्जं नः दुहाना धेनुः (अस्ति)
२-४) अस्मान् उप सुष्ठुता एतु ।
३) सामासिक-शब्दानां विग्रहाः विशिष्ट-शब्दानां विश्लेषणानि च -
३-१) वाचम् --> "वाक्" (= speech, sound as means of communication) इति स्त्रीलिङ्गि नाम । तस्य द्वितीया विभक्तिः एकवचनम् च ।
३-२) विश्वरूपाः --> विश्वे रूपम् यस्य सः विश्वरूपः (सप्तमी-बहुव्रीहिः)
३-३) मन्द्रेषम् --> मन्द्रः इषः यस्य सः मन्द्रेष: --> तम्

• मन्द्रः --> "मन्द्र" (= soft, low tone) इति विशेषणम् । अत्र पुल्लिङ्गि । तस्य प्रथमा विभक्तिः एकवचनम् च ।
• इषः --> "इष" (= One possessed of sap or strength) इति पुल्लिङ्गि नाम । तस्य प्रथमा विभक्तिः एकवचनम् च ।

३-४) ऊर्जम् --> "ऊर्ज" (= energy) इति पुल्लिङ्गि नाम । तस्य द्वितीया विभक्तिः एकवचनम् च ।
३-५) नः --> "अस्मद्" इति सर्वनाम । तस्य द्वितीया वा चतुर्थी वा षष्ठी विभक्तिः बहुवचनम् च ।
३-६) दुहाना --> "दुह्" २ उ (= to milch, to give milk) इति धातुः । तस्मात् वर्तमानकालवाचकं विशेषणम् "दुहन्" । अत्र स्त्रीलिङ्गि "दुहाना" (= giving milk) । तस्य प्रथमा विभक्तिः एकवचनम् च ।
३-७) उप --> यदा उपसर्गः भवन्नपि असंलग्नः उपयुज्यते तदा उप = अधिकतया (= In addition, additional)
३-८) एतु --> "इ" २ प (= to go, to go unto) इति धातुः । तस्य विध्यर्थे प्रथमपुरुषे एकवचनम् ।
४) अन्वयानां आङ्ग्लभाषायां अनुवादाः -
४-१) देवाः वाचम् देवीं अजनयन्त । =

• Gods created the goddess of speech (sound as means of communication)

४-२) विश्वरूपाः पशवः ताम् वदन्ति । =

• All creatures, who have assumed form in this world, speak (of) her OR
  
• All creatures, who have assumed form in this world, communicate by her means (by her grace !)

४-३) सा वाक् मन्द्र-इषं ऊर्जं नः दुहाना धेनुः (अस्ति) =

• That goddess of speech is like a cow giving milk of energy (ऊर्जं) (as of) one having energy of low tone
  

४-४) अस्मान् उप सुष्ठुता एतु । =

• May additional goodness get unto us

५) श्लोकं चतुष्पदेषु पुनर्लिखित्वा तस्य वृत्त-विश्लेषणम् -
देवीं वाचमजनयन्त देवास्- वर्णाः ११
२-२ २-१-१-१-१-२-१ २-२ (१७ मात्राः)
(मातारा) (नसल) (जभान) ग ग = म, न, ज, ग ग इति गणाः ।
तां विश्वरूपाः पशवो वदन्ति | वर्णाः ११
२ २-१-२-२ १-१-२ १-२-(१)  (१७/१८ मात्राः)
(ताराज) (ताराज) (जभान) ग ग = त, त, ज, ग, ग इति गणाः ।
सा नो मन्द्रेषमूर्जं  दुहाना । वर्णाः १०
२ २ २-२-१-२-२ १-२-२ (१८ मात्राः)
(मातारा) (राजभा) (राजभा) ग = म, र, र, ग इति गणाः ।
धेनुर्वागस्मानुप सुष्टुतैतु ।। वर्णाः ११
२-२-२-२-२-१-१ २-१-२-(१) (१८/१९ मात्राः)
(मातारा) (ताराज) (जभान) ग ग = म, त, ज, ग, ग इति गणाः ।
उपजाति-वृत्तम् ?

६) टिप्पणयः -
६-१) Although I attempted वृत्त-विश्लेषणम्, it is of course to be noted that ऋचः in ऋग्वेद are मन्त्राः । It is not to be expected they that would conform to any meter. They are to be uttered with specified (!) intonations and accents to get the maximum energy and benefit from the utterance.
६-२) The usage of the word उप standing alone seems to be uncommon. But In Apte's dictionary its meaning when standing alone is also detailed. I thought it good to opt for the meaning "additional".
६-३) As pointed out by Mr. A. Chandrasekar, मन्द्रेषमूर्जम् seems to be the word most challenging to decipher and interpret. He seems to have split it as मन्द्रे + ईषम् + ऊर्जम्. I have done it as मन्द्र-इषम् ऊर्जम्. I think my splitting is more correct.

• Use of two words इषम् and ऊर्जम्, both meaning "energy" seem to cause some repetition.
• The word ईषम् as identified by Mr. A. Chandrasekar along with its meanings, does not fit the context. The word इषम् meaning "one possessed of sap or strength" (Ref. - Apte's dictionary) fits better.

६-४) Because the word सुष्ठुता is an abstract noun and in nominative singular, I thought it better to make a separate clause with सुष्ठुता as the subject of the verb एतु
६-५) There seems to be some charming message implicit in all this. We use the gift of speech in all tones from soft to harsh. But it can be like cow's milk, only when used in soft tone मन्द्रेष and it can deliver positive energy ऊर्जम् only by मन्द्रेष

• It has to be noted that वाक् is given simile of cow's milk, not lioness' milk !
• कोलाहले काककुलस्य जाते विराजते कोकिलकूजितं किम् ?! Birds and animals also have the gift of speech. Birds and animals do use them to 'communicate', काक आव्हयते काकान् but within the limitations of the range of tones, gifted to them. 
• Man is gifted possibly with the widest range ! That is why man needs to exercise discretion, in what tone to speak ! It should be 'toned' milk !
  

६-६) We should always bear in mind that वाक् is देवी created by Gods (देवाः) and she bestows energy unto us. We must avail of it in all respectfulness.

६-७) Additional goodness उप सुष्ठुता will get unto us, only if the energy comes and/or is used in soft tone.
६-८) Why would there be tempers rising anytime, anywhere in the world, if all would avail of the gift of speech most respectfully ? That is universal, eternal wisdom. That is what वेदाः are !
६-९) It is happy sign that people are realizing and awakening to the wisdom ! May such fraternity grow ! अस्मान् उप सुष्ठुता एतु ।

शुभमस्तु !
-o-O-o-

सस्नेहम् ,
अभ्यंकरकुलोत्पन्नः श्रीपादः |
"श्रीपतेः पदयुगं स्मरणीयम् ।"
http://slabhyankar.wordpress.com
http://study1geetaa2sanskrit.wordpress.com/
http://slezall.blogspot.com
स्थापित-दूरभाष-क्रमाङ्कः +91 22 2849 5365
चलितभाष-क्रमाङ्कः +91 98330 72044

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "samskrita" group.
To post to this group, send email to sams...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to samskrita+...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/samskrita?hl=en.

[Shambhu]

Learned members may look into taittirIya yajur-brAhmaNa 2-8-8 (yAjuSa
devi sUktam) for the upavaakyas of the Rik, and thereby elucidate its
meaning. It is as:

devIM vAchamajanayanta devAH | tAM vishvarUpAH pashavo vadanti | sA no
mandreSamUrjaM duhAnA | dhenurvAgasmAnupa suSTutaitu |

arthAt:

devAH vAchaM devIM ajanayanta | (sarve) pashavaH tAM (vishvarUpAH)
vadanti | sA mandra ISaM (cha) Urjam naH duhAnA | vAgdhenuH asmAn
suSTuta a upa etu |

This suggests a meaning similar to the one suggested by Abhyakar ji
and the second one Chandrasekar ji quoted, but with a few major
differences:

“devas brought forth (ajanayanta = generated) vAgdevi (vAchaM devI =
vAgdevI). All bodied creatures (pashavaH) speak Her (not “speak of
Her”) who is of universal form - vishvarUpA is Her visheSaNa. May She
- who grants us our delight (mandra), bliss (ISaM), and strength/
nourishment (UrjaM) - the vAgdhenu (dhenuH vAk), be near us when we
praise Her.”

I wonder if ‘upa’ is with ‘etu’ = upaitu, as in shrIsUktam’s “upaitu
mAM devasakhaH kIrtischa maNinA saha”? Speech of all the creatures is
part of the chatvAri vAk – turIyam vAcho manuSyA vadanti – the
brAhmaNa elaborates later in the same sUktam; it is from another Rik
1-164-45, dIrghatamA RRiSiH, triSTup ChandaH, vAk devatA.

‘mandra’ as ‘delight’ and ‘vAk’ as a ‘milking cow’ appear in Rik
8-100-10 too, and the brAhmaNa next picks it up and splits it as: “yad-
vag-vadanti-avichetanAni | rASTrI devAnAM niSasAda mandrA | chatasra
Urjam duduhe payAgMsi | kva-sid-asyAH paramaM jagAma |”

‘mandrA’ here is taken as one who conferred delight (to the devas).
“Unblemished lives (avichintanAni = i.e., the devas/RRiSis?) say that
when the vAk (who was brought forth by the deva-s) sat as their queen
(devAnAM rASTrI niSasAda) delighting them (mandrA), She milked forth
nourishment (UrjaM duduhe) on all the four quarters in the primordial
Apa (in the early universe). Where has Her highest abode gone (now)?”
Roth, Wilson, Muir, and others seem to have goofed up big time in
translating ‘avichetanAni’ as thunders or unintelligible speech.
‘avichetanAni vadanti’ appears to be the prime statement here. Is this
incorrect?

We may infer that this milk-giving, universally nourishing vAgdhenu is
verily shruti. Other Riks connect vAk to gAyatrI, sAvitrI, sarasvatI,
varUtrI, BhAratI, etc. She is the daughter of devas and mother of all
bodied creatures (pashavaH).

RRiSi-Chandas-devatA for the two rik mantras (8-100-10 and 11) are
given as Bhargavo nemaH, triSTup, and vAk, respectively.

bRRihadAraNyaka upaniSad also describes vAk as dhenu (cow): “vAchaM
dhenuM upAsItA | tasyAschatvAraH stanAH svAhAkAro vaSatkAro hantakAraH
svadhAkAraH ….. mano vatsaH |”

devas live upon Her two udders svAhA and vaSat; humans on hanta; and
the pitRRis on svadhA (hence the offerings made with svAhA, vaSat,
svaddhA, etc., meaning namaH, as Bhat ji had noted in another thread)
….. The mind is Her calf (She is the delight of the mind, i.e.,
mandra). Equally, the mind is Her delight.

On Jun 25, 6:33 am, "S. L. Abhyankar" <sl.abhyan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> नमो नमः !
> सुभाषितानाम् अध्ययने या पद्धतिः मया उपयुज्यते तामेव अनुसृत्य एषः प्रयासः -
> देवीं वाचमजनयन्त देवास्तां विश्वरूपाः पशवो वदन्ति |
> सा नो मन्द्रेषमूर्जं  दुहाना धेनुर्वागस्मानुप सुष्टुतैतु || ऋ. 08.100.11.
>

> *१) सन्धि-विच्छेदान् कृत्वा सामासिक-शब्दानां पदानि च दर्शयित्वा *-

> देवीं वाचम् अजनयन्त देवाः ताम् विश्वरूपाः पशवः वदन्ति ।
> सा नः मन्द्र-इषम् ऊर्जं दुहाना धेनुः वाक् अस्मान् उप सुष्ठुता एतु ।।

> *२) वाक्यांशशः अन्वयाः *-

> २-१) देवाः वाचम् देवीं अजनयन्त ।
> २-२) विश्वरूपाः पशवः ताम् वदन्ति ।
> २-३) सा वाक् मन्द्र-इषं ऊर्जं नः दुहाना धेनुः (अस्ति)
> २-४) अस्मान् उप सुष्ठुता एतु ।

> *३) सामासिक-शब्दानां विग्रहाः विशिष्ट-शब्दानां विश्लेषणानि च* -

> ३-१) वाचम् --> "वाक्" (= speech, sound as means of communication) इति
> स्त्रीलिङ्गि नाम । तस्य द्वितीया विभक्तिः एकवचनम् च ।
> ३-२) विश्वरूपाः --> विश्वे रूपम् यस्य सः विश्वरूपः (सप्तमी-बहुव्रीहिः)
> ३-३) मन्द्रेषम् --> मन्द्रः इषः यस्य सः मन्द्रेष: --> तम्
>

>    - मन्द्रः --> "मन्द्र" (= soft, low tone) इति विशेषणम् । अत्र

>    पुल्लिङ्गि । तस्य प्रथमा विभक्तिः एकवचनम् च ।

>    - इषः --> "इष" (= One possessed of sap or strength) इति पुल्लिङ्गि नाम ।

>    तस्य प्रथमा विभक्तिः एकवचनम् च ।
>
> ३-४) ऊर्जम् --> "ऊर्ज" (= energy) इति पुल्लिङ्गि नाम । तस्य द्वितीया
> विभक्तिः एकवचनम् च ।
> ३-५) नः --> "अस्मद्" इति सर्वनाम । तस्य द्वितीया वा चतुर्थी वा षष्ठी
> विभक्तिः बहुवचनम् च ।
> ३-६) दुहाना --> "दुह्" २ उ (= to milch, to give milk) इति धातुः । तस्मात्
> वर्तमानकालवाचकं विशेषणम् "दुहन्" । अत्र स्त्रीलिङ्गि "दुहाना" (= giving
> milk) । तस्य प्रथमा विभक्तिः एकवचनम् च ।
> ३-७) उप --> यदा उपसर्गः भवन्नपि असंलग्नः उपयुज्यते तदा उप = अधिकतया (= In
> addition, additional)
> ३-८) एतु --> "इ" २ प (= to go, to go unto) इति धातुः । तस्य विध्यर्थे
> प्रथमपुरुषे एकवचनम् ।

> *४) अन्वयानां आङ्ग्लभाषायां अनुवादाः* -

> ४-१) देवाः वाचम् देवीं अजनयन्त । =
>

>    - Gods created the goddess of speech (sound as means of communication)

>
> ४-२) विश्वरूपाः पशवः ताम् वदन्ति । =
>

>    - All creatures, who have assumed form in this world, speak (of) her OR
>    - All creatures, who have assumed form in this world, communicate by her

>    means (by her grace !)
>
> ४-३) सा वाक् मन्द्र-इषं ऊर्जं नः दुहाना धेनुः (अस्ति) =
>

>    - That goddess of speech is like a cow giving milk of energy (ऊर्जं) (as

>    of) one having energy of low tone
>
> ४-४) अस्मान् उप सुष्ठुता एतु । =
>

>    - May additional goodness get unto us
>
> *५) श्लोकं चतुष्पदेषु पुनर्लिखित्वा तस्य वृत्त-विश्लेषणम् *-

> देवीं वाचमजनयन्त देवास्- वर्णाः ११
> २-२ २-१-१-१-१-२-१ २-२ (१७ मात्राः)
> (मातारा) (नसल) (जभान) ग ग = म, न, ज, ग ग इति गणाः ।
> तां विश्वरूपाः पशवो वदन्ति | वर्णाः ११
> २ २-१-२-२ १-१-२ १-२-(१)  (१७/१८ मात्राः)
> (ताराज) (ताराज) (जभान) ग ग = त, त, ज, ग, ग इति गणाः ।
> सा नो मन्द्रेषमूर्जं  दुहाना । वर्णाः १०
> २ २ २-२-१-२-२ १-२-२ (१८ मात्राः)
> (मातारा) (राजभा) (राजभा) ग = म, र, र, ग इति गणाः ।
> धेनुर्वागस्मानुप सुष्टुतैतु ।। वर्णाः ११
> २-२-२-२-२-१-१ २-१-२-(१) (१८/१९ मात्राः)
> (मातारा) (ताराज) (जभान) ग ग = म, त, ज, ग, ग इति गणाः ।
> उपजाति-वृत्तम् ?
>

> *६) टिप्पणयः *-

> ६-१) Although I attempted वृत्त-विश्लेषणम्, it is of course to be noted that
> ऋचः in ऋग्वेद are मन्त्राः । It is not to be expected they that would
> conform to any meter. They are to be uttered with specified (!) intonations
> and accents to get the maximum energy and benefit from the utterance.
> ६-२) The usage of the word उप standing alone seems to be uncommon. But In
> Apte's dictionary its meaning when standing alone is also detailed. I
> thought it good to opt for the meaning "additional".
> ६-३) As pointed out by Mr. A. Chandrasekar, मन्द्रेषमूर्जम् seems to be the
> word most challenging to decipher and interpret. He seems to have split it
> as मन्द्रे + ईषम् + ऊर्जम्. I have done it as मन्द्र-इषम् ऊर्जम्. I think my
> splitting is more correct.
>

>    - Use of two words इषम् and ऊर्जम्, both meaning "energy" seem to cause
>    some repetition.
>    - The word ईषम् as identified by Mr. A. Chandrasekar along with its

>    meanings, does not fit the context. The word इषम् meaning "one possessed of
>    sap or strength" (Ref. - Apte's dictionary) fits better.
>
> ६-४) Because the word सुष्ठुता is an abstract noun and in nominative
> singular, I thought it better to make a separate clause with सुष्ठुता as the
> subject of the verb एतु
> ६-५) There seems to be some charming message implicit in all this. We use
> the gift of speech in all tones from soft to harsh. But it can be like cow's
> milk, only when used in soft tone मन्द्रेष and it can deliver positive
> energy ऊर्जम् only by मन्द्रेष
>

>    - It has to be noted that वाक् is given simile of cow's milk, not
>    lioness' milk !
>    - कोलाहले काककुलस्य जाते विराजते कोकिलकूजितं किम् ?! Birds and animals

>    also have the gift of speech. Birds and animals do use them to
>    'communicate', काक आव्हयते काकान् but within the limitations of the range of
>    tones, gifted to them.

>    - Man is gifted possibly with the widest range ! That is why man needs to

>    exercise discretion, in what tone to speak ! It should be 'toned' milk !
>
> ६-६) We should always bear in mind that वाक् is देवी created by Gods (देवाः)
> and she bestows energy unto us. We must avail of it in all respectfulness.
> ६-७) Additional goodness उप सुष्ठुता will get unto us, only if the energy
> comes and/or is used in soft tone.
> ६-८) Why would there be tempers rising anytime, anywhere in the world, if
> all would avail of the gift of speech most respectfully ? That is universal,
> eternal wisdom. That is what वेदाः are !
> ६-९) It is happy sign that people are realizing and awakening to the wisdom
> ! May such fraternity grow ! अस्मान् उप सुष्ठुता एतु ।
>

> *शुभमस्तु !
> -o-O-o-
> *

> सस्नेहम् ,
> अभ्यंकरकुलोत्पन्नः श्रीपादः |

> "श्रीपतेः पदयुगं स्मरणीयम् ।"http://slabhyankar.wordpress.comhttp://study1geetaa2sanskrit.wordpress.com/http://slezall.blogspot.com

> स्थापित-दूरभाष-क्रमाङ्कः +91 22 2849 5365
> चलितभाष-क्रमाङ्कः +91 98330 72044
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 5:23 PM, acsekar <kulu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Not satisfied with the available translations in the net for the
> > following Shloka, I have attempted to make a literal tranlation with
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[kamalesh pathak]

I

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "samskrita" group.
To post to this group, send email to sams...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to samskrita+...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/samskrita?hl=en.

NAMASKAR TO ALL GROUP

the above verse from well known SRI SUKTA - i am not going to criticise about its particular leaning - i just want to say that one should translate this verse with ' PURVAAPAR' mantras,

we are not the MANTRA DRASTAAS so we should try to evaluate with PURVAAPAR mantras.

i will be happy from the guidance from all learned group please,

kamalesh pathak

somanth

[hnbhat B.R.]

NAMASKAR TO ALL GROUP

the above verse from well known SRI SUKTA - i am not going to criticise about its particular leaning - i just want to say that one should translate this verse with ' PURVAAPAR' mantras,

we are not the MANTRA DRASTAAS so we should try to evaluate with PURVAAPAR mantras.

i will be happy from the guidance from all learned group please,

kamalesh pathak

somanth

You have rightly assessed value of the semantic content of the Vedic verses. It has been stated many and the tradition has fixed a संहितापाठ and पदपाठ to fix the words in the verse and the identification of the words in the संहितापाठ i.e.Versified form. In Additioln, वेदाङग-s OR Accessories to the संहिता-s of which व्याकरण, छन्दः, and निरुक्त (A etymologically annotated words of the vocabulary of Vedic Words called निघण्टु)  are aides to understand the meaning. This is the traditional way of interpreting the मन्त्र-s in the वेदसंहिता-s. It has been clearly specified in निरुक्तम्- 

नैकं पदं निर्ब्रूयात् - A word should be commented in isolation (from its context). 

 This has been followed by the traditional commentators like सायणाचार्य and his predecessors. I am trying to gather information according to सायण-s commentary and will post it soon.

With regards

--
Dr. Hari Narayana Bhat B.R. M.A., Ph.D.,
Research Scholar,

EFEO,
PONDICHERRY - 605 001

[kamalesh pathak]

Respected abhyankar ji and Shambhu ji and Bhatt ji  ,

heartfully appriciating your view and thanks to give idea to study a mantra

with various concepts and references.

regards,

kamalesh pathak

somnath

2011/6/25 S. L. Abhyankar <sl.abh...@gmail.com>

[Shambhu]

R. T. H. Griffith’s ‘translation’ of this Rigveda suktam (maNdala 8,
sUktam 100 – Griffith’s #89) based on Sayanaachaarya bhAshya and Max
Mueller’s text thereof: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Rig_Veda/Mandala_8/Hymn_89,
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv08089.htm. For the #11
“vedIM vAchamajanayanta” mantra, he wrote, “The Deities generated Vak
the Goddess, and animals of every figure speak her. May she, the
Gladdener, yielding food and vigour, the Milch-cow Vak, approach us
meetly lauded.” This is all right for a beginner.

However, his translation of ‘yadvAgvadantyavichetanAni’ in mantra #10
is a blooper, “When, uttering words which no one comprehended, Vak,
Queen of Gods, the Gladdener, was seated, the heaven's four regions
drew forth drink and vigour: now whither hath her noblest portion
vanished?” Taking clue from the tattirIya yajur-brAhmaNa 2-8-8, he
messed up the simple statement ‘avichetanAni vadanti’ (present tense,
plural) into ‘uttering words which no one comprehended.’ He saw some
kind of ‘drink’ in ‘payAgmsi.’ Learned members may illuminate.

A minor correction to Kamalesh ji’s comment: The mantra Rik 8-100-11
is not in the ShrI sUktam. The ShrI sUktam is a khila (often appended
to 5th maNdala). The 100th sUktam in the 8th maNdala (beginning as
“ayaM ta emi”) with 12 mantras has Indra (mantras #4 and 5 only) and
Bhargavo nema as RRiSis; mantras 10 and 11 have vAk as devatA. The
brAhmaNa is indeed their contextual analysis.

Indra is the devatA too for mantras #4 and 5. A cursory examination of
these mantras reveals that this Indra RRishi/devatA is not a human
being; here is an example of what I noted in another thread regarding
“RRiSi.”

The other mantras of this sUktam are complex as well. Poor Griffith
labored a lot and made a fantastic soup, esp. mantra #4 where
‘madhunaH’ became ‘meath’, ‘bhAgaH’ (of bhaga = of Almighty) became
‘part’, and ‘somaH’ (soma deva, rik identifies Him as Indra’s Son)
became soma juice! I can only say, “vaa… re… vaah…”!

On Jun 27, 4:28 am, kamalesh pathak <kamleshsomn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Respected abhyankar ji and Shambhu ji and Bhatt ji  ,
> heartfully appriciating your view and thanks to give idea to study a mantra
> with various concepts and references.
> regards,
> kamalesh pathak
> somnath
>

> 2011/6/25 S. L. Abhyankar <sl.abhyan...@gmail.com>

>
>
>
> > नमो नमः !
> > सुभाषितानाम् अध्ययने या पद्धतिः मया उपयुज्यते तामेव अनुसृत्य एषः प्रयासः -
> >  देवीं वाचमजनयन्त देवास्तां विश्वरूपाः पशवो वदन्ति |
> > सा नो मन्द्रेषमूर्जं  दुहाना धेनुर्वागस्मानुप सुष्टुतैतु || ऋ. 08.100.11.
>

> > *१) सन्धि-विच्छेदान् कृत्वा सामासिक-शब्दानां पदानि च दर्शयित्वा *-

> > देवीं वाचम् अजनयन्त देवाः ताम् विश्वरूपाः पशवः वदन्ति ।
> > सा नः मन्द्र-इषम् ऊर्जं दुहाना धेनुः वाक् अस्मान् उप सुष्ठुता एतु ।।

> > *२) वाक्यांशशः अन्वयाः *-

> > २-१) देवाः वाचम् देवीं अजनयन्त ।
> > २-२) विश्वरूपाः पशवः ताम् वदन्ति ।
> > २-३) सा वाक् मन्द्र-इषं ऊर्जं नः दुहाना धेनुः (अस्ति)
> > २-४) अस्मान् उप सुष्ठुता एतु ।

> > *३) सामासिक-शब्दानां विग्रहाः विशिष्ट-शब्दानां विश्लेषणानि च* -

> > ३-१) वाचम् --> "वाक्" (= speech, sound as means of communication) इति
> > स्त्रीलिङ्गि नाम । तस्य द्वितीया विभक्तिः एकवचनम् च ।
> > ३-२) विश्वरूपाः --> विश्वे रूपम् यस्य सः विश्वरूपः (सप्तमी-बहुव्रीहिः)
> > ३-३) मन्द्रेषम् --> मन्द्रः इषः यस्य सः मन्द्रेष: --> तम्
>

> >    - मन्द्रः --> "मन्द्र" (= soft, low tone) इति विशेषणम् । अत्र

> >    पुल्लिङ्गि । तस्य प्रथमा विभक्तिः एकवचनम् च ।

> >    - इषः --> "इष" (= One possessed of sap or strength) इति पुल्लिङ्गि नाम

> >    । तस्य प्रथमा विभक्तिः एकवचनम् च ।
>
> > ३-४) ऊर्जम् --> "ऊर्ज" (= energy) इति पुल्लिङ्गि नाम । तस्य द्वितीया
> > विभक्तिः एकवचनम् च ।
> > ३-५) नः --> "अस्मद्" इति सर्वनाम । तस्य द्वितीया वा चतुर्थी वा षष्ठी
> > विभक्तिः बहुवचनम् च ।
> > ३-६) दुहाना --> "दुह्" २ उ (= to milch, to give milk) इति धातुः । तस्मात्
> > वर्तमानकालवाचकं विशेषणम् "दुहन्" । अत्र स्त्रीलिङ्गि "दुहाना" (= giving
> > milk) । तस्य प्रथमा विभक्तिः एकवचनम् च ।
> > ३-७) उप --> यदा उपसर्गः भवन्नपि असंलग्नः उपयुज्यते तदा उप = अधिकतया (= In
> > addition, additional)
> > ३-८) एतु --> "इ" २ प (= to go, to go unto) इति धातुः । तस्य विध्यर्थे
> > प्रथमपुरुषे एकवचनम् ।

> > *४) अन्वयानां आङ्ग्लभाषायां अनुवादाः* -

> > ४-१) देवाः वाचम् देवीं अजनयन्त । =
>

> >    - Gods created the goddess of speech (sound as means of communication)

>
> > ४-२) विश्वरूपाः पशवः ताम् वदन्ति । =
>

> >    - All creatures, who have assumed form in this world, speak (of) her OR
>
> >    - All creatures, who have assumed form in this world, communicate by

> >    her means (by her grace !)
>
> > ४-३) सा वाक् मन्द्र-इषं ऊर्जं नः दुहाना धेनुः (अस्ति) =
>

> >    - That goddess of speech is like a cow giving milk of energy (ऊर्जं)

> >    (as of) one having energy of low tone
>
> > ४-४) अस्मान् उप सुष्ठुता एतु । =
>

> >    - May additional goodness get unto us
>
> > *५) श्लोकं चतुष्पदेषु पुनर्लिखित्वा तस्य वृत्त-विश्लेषणम् *-

> > देवीं वाचमजनयन्त देवास्- वर्णाः ११
> > २-२ २-१-१-१-१-२-१ २-२ (१७ मात्राः)
> > (मातारा) (नसल) (जभान) ग ग = म, न, ज, ग ग इति गणाः ।
> > तां विश्वरूपाः पशवो वदन्ति | वर्णाः ११
> > २ २-१-२-२ १-१-२ १-२-(१)  (१७/१८ मात्राः)
> > (ताराज) (ताराज) (जभान) ग ग = त, त, ज, ग, ग इति गणाः ।
> > सा नो मन्द्रेषमूर्जं  दुहाना । वर्णाः १०
> > २ २ २-२-१-२-२ १-२-२ (१८ मात्राः)
> > (मातारा) (राजभा) (राजभा) ग = म, र, र, ग इति गणाः ।
> > धेनुर्वागस्मानुप सुष्टुतैतु ।। वर्णाः ११
> > २-२-२-२-२-१-१ २-१-२-(१) (१८/१९ मात्राः)
> > (मातारा) (ताराज) (जभान) ग ग = म, त, ज, ग, ग इति गणाः ।
> > उपजाति-वृत्तम् ?
>

> > *६) टिप्पणयः *-

> > ६-१) Although I attempted वृत्त-विश्लेषणम्, it is of course to be noted
> > that ऋचः in ऋग्वेद are मन्त्राः । It is not to be expected they that would
> > conform to any meter. They are to be uttered with specified (!) intonations
> > and accents to get the maximum energy and benefit from the utterance.
> > ६-२) The usage of the word उप standing alone seems to be uncommon. But In
> > Apte's dictionary its meaning when standing alone is also detailed. I
> > thought it good to opt for the meaning "additional".
> > ६-३) As pointed out by Mr. A. Chandrasekar, मन्द्रेषमूर्जम् seems to be the
> > word most challenging to decipher and interpret. He seems to have split it
> > as मन्द्रे + ईषम् + ऊर्जम्. I have done it as मन्द्र-इषम् ऊर्जम्. I think my
> > splitting is more correct.
>

> >    - Use of two words इषम् and ऊर्जम्, both meaning "energy" seem to cause
> >    some repetition.
> >    - The word ईषम् as identified by Mr. A. Chandrasekar along with its

> >    meanings, does not fit the context. The word इषम् meaning "one possessed of
> >    sap or strength" (Ref. - Apte's dictionary) fits better.
>
> > ६-४) Because the word सुष्ठुता is an abstract noun and in nominative
> > singular, I thought it better to make a separate clause with सुष्ठुता as the
> > subject of the verb एतु
> > ६-५) There seems to be some charming message implicit in all this. We use
> > the gift of speech in all tones from soft to harsh. But it can be like cow's
> > milk, only when used in soft tone मन्द्रेष and it can deliver positive
> > energy ऊर्जम् only by मन्द्रेष
>

> >    - It has to be noted that वाक् is given simile of cow's milk, not
> >    lioness' milk !
> >    - कोलाहले काककुलस्य जाते विराजते कोकिलकूजितं किम् ?! Birds and animals

> >    also have the gift of speech. Birds and animals do use them to
> >    'communicate', काक आव्हयते काकान् but within the limitations of the range of
> >    tones, gifted to them.

> >    - Man is gifted possibly with the widest range ! That is why man needs

> >    to exercise discretion, in what tone to speak ! It should be 'toned' milk !
>
> > ६-६) We should always bear in mind that वाक् is देवी created by Gods
> > (देवाः) and she bestows energy unto us. We must avail of it in all
> > respectfulness.
> > ६-७) Additional goodness उप सुष्ठुता will get unto us, only if the energy
> > comes and/or is used in soft tone.
> > ६-८) Why would there be tempers rising anytime, anywhere in the world, if
> > all would avail of the gift of speech most respectfully ? That is universal,
> > eternal wisdom. That is what वेदाः are !
> > ६-९) It is happy sign that people are realizing and awakening to the wisdom
> > ! May such fraternity grow ! अस्मान् उप सुष्ठुता एतु ।
>

> > *शुभमस्तु !
> > -o-O-o-
> > *

> > सस्नेहम् ,
> > अभ्यंकरकुलोत्पन्नः श्रीपादः |
> > "श्रीपतेः पदयुगं
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[Shambhu Shastry]

Dear friends,

Apologies for the goof up below - not "vedIM vAchanamajanayanta" but "devIM vAchamajanayanta"!

---

From: Shambhu <bhaa...@yahoo.com>
To: samskrita <sams...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 1:48:05 PM
Subject: [Samskrita] Re: Rigveda 08.100.11

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "samskrita" group.
To post to this group, send email to sams...@googlegroups.com.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to samskrita+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

[Naresh Cuntoor]

He saw some
kind of ‘drink’ in ‘payAgmsi.’

That's because it is the plural form of payas - payaH payasI payAMsi.
The "gM" apparently became "M" in 'classical' Sanskrit.

And payaH is generally translated as water, milk or some drink.


 

--

[Shambhu Shastry]

Naresh mahodaya,

Certainly. Just so any member is not confused, I may add:

In the context of the two mantras (#10 and 11) as well as the entire sUktam 8-100 and its contextualization in the taittirIya brAhmaNa 2-8-8, there is no water, milk, or drink in its purview. So Griffith's translation is really fantastic. These days most may go further with payas = pAyasam (a sweet dish; 'paayasa' in Kannada) and look for the meaning in the bhojanam, though!

---

From: Naresh Cuntoor <nare...@gmail.com>
To: sams...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 10:53:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Samskrita] Re: Rigveda 08.100.11

[Naresh Cuntoor]

However, his translation of ‘yadvAgvadantyavichetanAni’ in mantra #10
is a blooper, “When, uttering words which no one comprehended, Vak,
Queen of Gods, the Gladdener, was seated, the heaven's four regions
drew forth drink and vigour: now whither hath her noblest portion
vanished?” Taking clue from the tattirIya yajur-brAhmaNa 2-8-8, he
messed up the simple statement ‘avichetanAni vadanti’ (present tense,
plural) into ‘uttering words which no one comprehended.’ He saw some
kind of ‘drink’ in ‘payAgmsi.’

Out of curiosity, I looked up Sayanabhashya for this part. At the outset, I will mention that I am no expert.

The padapATha for this mantra reads as follows:

yat vAk vadantI avichetanAni rAShTrI devAnAM niShasAda mandrA chatasraH UrjaM duduhe payAMsi kva svit asyAH paramaM jagAma

Quoting bhAShya text for some of the words:
rAShTrI = rAjanashIlA
avichetanAni = vij~JAna-rahitaana-praj~JAtAna-narthAn
vadantI
...
payAMsi = (tatkAraNabhUtAni) udakAni ...

Two points to note here:
- Griffith's translation is not too objectionable because avichetanAni can be reasonably translated as "uttering words which no one comprehended / understood", while keeping well within the spirit of Sayana's take on it. Please look at the "vij~JAnarahitAn .. anarthAn above.

- payAMsi  = udakAni = water = drink

Incidentally it is not vadanti, but vadantI with a dIrgha svara at the end. So it is shatranta, not in laT.


I fail to see what is objectionable in the translation here.

-Naresh

PS: If you are suspicious of English translation and more trusting of Indian language translations, the following is the Kannada version as given in the book:
" .... mAnavara praj~Jege arthavAgadantaha vAkkugaLannu uchcharisuttA ... annavannU udakavannU karedaLu (duduhe)...."
 

[hnbhat B.R.]

On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 7:28 AM, Naresh Cuntoor <nare...@gmail.com> wrote:

However, his translation of ‘yadvAgvadantyavichetanAni’ in mantra #10
is a blooper, “When, uttering words which no one comprehended, Vak,
Queen of Gods, the Gladdener, was seated, the heaven's four regions
drew forth drink and vigour: now whither hath her noblest portion
vanished?” Taking clue from the tattirIya yajur-brAhmaNa 2-8-8, he
messed up the simple statement ‘avichetanAni vadanti’ (present tense,
plural) into ‘uttering words which no one comprehended.’ He saw some
kind of ‘drink’ in ‘payAgmsi.’

Out of curiosity, I looked up Sayanabhashya for this part. At the outset, I will mention that I am no expert.

The padapATha for this mantra reads as follows:

yat vAk vadantI avichetanAni rAShTrI devAnAM niShasAda mandrA chatasraH UrjaM duduhe payAMsi kva svit asyAH paramaM jagAma

Quoting bhAShya text for some of the words:
rAShTrI = rAjanashIlA
avichetanAni = vij~JAna-rahitaana-praj~JAtAna-narthAn
vadantI
...
payAMsi = (tatkAraNabhUtAni) udakAni ...

Two points to note here:
- Griffith's translation is not too objectionable because avichetanAni can be reasonably translated as "uttering words which no one comprehended / understood", while keeping well within the spirit of Sayana's take on it. Please look at the "vij~JAnarahitAn .. anarthAn above.

- payAMsi  = udakAni = water = drink

Incidentally it is not vadanti, but vadantI with a dIrgha svara at the end. So it is shatranta, not in laT.

 

I am not in a possition to understand the explanation of Sayana, in as much as

 

अविचेतनानि वदन्ती - विज्ञानरहितान्  अप्रज्ञातार्थान् वदन्ती ,,,

 

whether the word अविचेतनानि - is substantive noun in neuter gender which is explained in masculine gender as meaning less sounds/voices/words without any obvious meaning.  If it is adjective, it requires a noun to be qualified which is not in the mantra, but inferred as वचांसि, which is not included in the gloss also. The second word in feminine gender of present participle of वद as suggested by Naresh. 

 

The gloss in Sayana in its turn is based on the gloss given by Yaska on the same mantra, as  अविज्ञातानि for अविचेतनानि (निरुक्त ११.२८) which is further elaborated as अप्रज्ञातार्थान्. Any enlightenement in this respect is highly solicited.

 

According to the translators, the word here denotes the माध्यमिका वाक् sound produced in the sky as proposed in Nirukta in the same context. Here it signifies the मन्द्र sound produced by the lightening, with the adjective राष्ट्री = राजनशीला, i.e. lightening conceived as the वाक् and it is metaphorical idea is the rain produced by the rain producing liquit and solid food for all ऊर्जं दुदुहे पयांसि which is the proper meaning for the verb दुह प्रपूरणे.

 

The same idea is explained in the next verse also, where the next section in Nirukta as related to the deity वाक् in the दैवतकाण्ड explains [इषमूर्जम् दुहाना] - अन्नं रसं च दुहाना. (निरुक्त ११.२९) (both are commented to some extent).

 

In both places, the rain falling from the sky is conceived as milk, water or food differently or both food and water provided by naure and hence conceived as provided by the वाग्देवता. 

 

 By the way, both इषम् and ऊर्क्  are listed as synonyms of food in निघण्टु by Yaska. Hence he has used different forms of food, अन्नम् रसं च in his gloss on इषम्, ऊर्जम्.

 

Both are derived from इष इच्छायाम्, and ऊर्ज बल-प्राणनयोः, respectively. The second may be ऊर्ज also derived from क suffix. meaning providing energy. In the other the same has been interpreted with पयांसि which can be taken in the above explanation meaning both milk or water or any liquid food रस (which is also sysnonym for food in the निघण्टु).

 

But the translation by "drink" for the liquid food or रस may lead to some different connotation in English need not transfer the meaning of रस  in Sanskrit. This the problem with its usage in different contexts in English language which overshadows literal meaning that any liquid that can be drunk. In the context of यज्ञ or याग it may mean even meat and drink as हुतशेष in it for the Rtvik-s. Soma Juce and meat of the पशु (or anything offered as oblation) sacrificed in the याग. This also might have influenced their translations as Brahmnins are हुतशेषादः entitled for it while others are not, according to Aitereya Brahmana.

 

--
Dr. Hari Narayana Bhat B.R. M.A., Ph.D.,
Research Scholar,

[NathRao]

On Jun 27, 10:53 pm, Naresh Cuntoor <nares...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > He saw some
> > kind of ‘drink’ in ‘payAgmsi.’
>
> That's because it is the plural form of payas - payaH payasI payAMsi.
> The "gM" apparently became "M" in 'classical' Sanskrit.

Actually, "gm" (or sometimes "gum") for anusvAra is a pronunciation of
anusVara in certain traditions (like "j" for "y" etc). I am not sure
if it is confined to just Taittiriyas (or even only some of them) or
if it is more widespread. It was not universal: RkprAtishAkya, I
believe, considers it unacceptable.

Regards
Nath Rao

[hnbhat B.R.]

Actually, "gm" (or sometimes "gum") for anusvAra is a pronunciation of
anusVara in certain traditions (like "j" for "y" etc). I am not sure
if it is confined to just Taittiriyas (or even only some of them) or
if it is more widespread. It was not universal: RkprAtishAkya, I
believe, considers it unacceptable.

Regards
Nath Rao

 

I think it is pronounced as such in Taittiriya only and before the consonant स as one will have anusvaara in its pure form without undergoing any change. In some of other thread, the symbol for this type of anusvAra is presented in some other thread. It is pronounced as "g" appended though it is represented ardhachandra with anusvara mounted on  a half visarga like symbol in Devanagari. But for listeners, "g_M" is heard. हंसः शुचि,,,,, etc. ऋतं सत्यं परं etc. are the mantra-s I have heard and not before other consonants so far as I remember. Also taGm hovaaca. It might have been prescribed in यजुःप्रातिशाख्य accurately.

[P.K.Ramakrishnan]

 When I was a boy I was taught the

pronunciation of vedic words

like

 

ऋतं सत्यं   as  ऋतगुंसत्यं

तम् उवाच  as  तगुंहोवाच

 

Just for information.

-----------------------------------
P.K.Ramakrishnan
http://peekayar.blogspot.com

---

From: hnbhat B.R. <hnbh...@gmail.com>
To: sams...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 30 June, 2011 9:41:43 AM

Subject: Re: [Samskrita] Re: Rigveda 08.100.11

[hnbhat B.R.]

Accidentally I lodged in this site of Vedic Literature Reading of Mahesh Yogi:

 

http://is1.mum.edu/vedicreserve/index.htm

 

All the related texts are available for download in pdf files. I posted the link here so that it can be made use of by members interested, if not already noticed.

[श्रीमल्ललितालालितः]

Thank you for link to a great resource.

[hnbhat B.R.]

Out of curiosity, I swarmed through Taittiriya Samhita and Aranyaka texts and collected a few more "anusvara" combinations with G appended. some more peculiar pronounciation is noticed too as can be seen in the image below.

 

 

The first are the sequences of anusvaara in question, followed by र, श, ष, स, ह while followed by य, ल or व are seen taking परसवर्ण nasalized form of these with anusvaara which follows Paninian rule of Sandhi taking optional form.

The t - th, when followed by s is peculiar change noticed in the last ones. from संवत्सर onward. Even वाथ्स्यायनः is found as the last one for the popular वात्स्यायनः in other texts.

With regards

The same image file is attached as jpg and pdf if any problem in viewing inside the message.

[Shambhu Shastry]

The famous gAyatri gets a t-to-th treatment in the taittirIya (mahAnArAyaNopanishad): tat savitr` becomes tathsavitr`. The well known durgA sUktam therein has this as well as appearance of th  (asmAnthsvastibhiH, paramAthsadhasthAt).