Request for guidance on weight of a 'Karsha' coin

[Margie Parikh]

Namaste all,

Can anyone please point me to sources that can reliably explain the weight and metals used in Karsha coins?

My specific interest is in knowing whether in the estimated duration from 11th to 14th century BC, in the north India, what would have a Karsha been made of, and how much it may have weighed.

This understanding will help me draw some comparison between various categories (hierarchy?) of kings as described by the following (and more) shlokas from the Shukraniti:

लक्षकर्षमितो भागो राजतो यस्य जायते ।

वत्सरे वत्सरे नित्यं प्रजानान्त्वविपीडनैः ॥ १-१८३ ॥

सामन्तः स नृपः प्रोक्तो यावल्लक्षत्रयावधि ।

तदूर्ध्वं दशलक्षान्तो नृपो माण्डलिकः समृतः ॥ १-१८४ ॥

तदूर्ध्वन्तु भवेद्राजा यावद् विंशतिलक्षकः ।

पञ्चाशल्लक्षपर्य्यन्तो महाराजः प्रकीर्त्तितः ॥ १-१८५ ॥

Thank you!

Vandana from margie 

[Taff Rivers]

Margie,

   Going back a little earlier, you may not only find useful information on weights and  metals but a little history on the subject.

  A very recent blog from last month, on Contribution of Indus Script tradition ... to the ancient world (World Monetary history).

  http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.co.uk/2016/03/contribution-of-indus-script-tradition.html

Taff

[Taff Rivers]

Margie,

    It's all out there. It's just a matter of locating the sources;

For example, there's a book that relates coins and kings.

Lectures on Ancient Indian Numismatics

By D. R. Bhandarkar

 

Taff

  R&D person

On Friday, 8 April 2016 05:27:33 UTC+1, Margie Parikh wrote:

[Arvind_Kolhatkar]

Margie,

कर्ष was a small unit of weight used in weighing gold and silver.  There is no unanimity as to its actual weight, different sources giving different results in different times.  

'गणितसारसंग्रह' by महावीराचार्य (IX c.) has the following table for weights of gold (संज्ञाधिकार श्लोक ३९)

चतुर्भिर्गण्डकैर्गुञ्जा गुञ्जा: पञ्च पणोऽष्ट ते।

धरणं धरणे कर्ष: पलं कर्षचतुष्टयम्॥

४ गण्डक = १ गुंजा

५ गुंजा = १ पण

८ पण = १ धरण

२ धरण = १ कर्ष

४ कर्ष = १ पल

अमरकोश (V-VI c.) at २.९.८५-८६ gives the following:

५ गुञ्जा = १ माष,

१६ माष = १ कर्ष,

४ कर्ष = १ पल.

मनुस्मृति (८.१३३-१३८) has its own table of weights for precious metals. It says that the coin called 'कार्षापण' is of the weight of one copper कर्ष,  which, in turn, has been defined as १० धरण.

शब्दकल्पद्रुम has १ कर्ष = १६ माष = ८० रत्तिका.  It also mentions that in आयुर्वेद १ कर्ष = २ तोला or १० माष (राजनिघण्टु).  MW too gives similar other definitions.

There was a punch-marked coin called कार्षापण in the times of the Mauryan dynasty.   Several pictures of these may be seen here.

Arvind Kolhatkar.

[Hnbhat B.R.]

On 08-Apr-2016 8:22 pm, "Arvind_Kolhatkar" <kolhat...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Margie,
>
> कर्ष was a small unit of weight used in weighing gold and silver.  There is no unanimity as to its actual weight, different sources giving different results in different times.  
>

Maggie wants to know specifically

" whether in the estimated duration from 11th to 14th century BC, in the north specific interest is in knowing whether in the estimated duration from 11th to 14th century BC, in the north India, what would have a Karsha been made of, and how much it may have weighed. , what would have a Karsha been made of, and how much it may have weighed."

and not at different times as you have given.

[ken p]

One may browse  these links.

https://books.google.com/books?id=y1RkAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA22&lpg=PA22&dq=Karsha%27+coin&source=bl&ots=hTmkLo-2cH&sig=N9eTO2Psjzzyb8AkXuPqE0hXIyw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjVue-Crf_LAhXDeCYKHaSXAqMQ6AEINjAE#v=onepage&q=Karsha'%20coin&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=Rg4vAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA22&lpg=PA22&dq=Karsha%27+coin&source=bl&ots=lA_aLgAOzJ&sig=J3mjm3bqCUPCcr2czCIzGOb4XyI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjVue-Crf_LAhXDeCYKHaSXAqMQ6AEIOTAF#v=onepage&q&f=false

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coinage_of_India

[Arvind_Kolhatkar]

I think it would be difficult to answer Margie's specific question as to the presence of कर्ष in the 11th to the 14th century B.C.  Is any verifiable documentary evidence available for anything that goes so far back?

In my limited understanding the Vedas do not refer to कर्ष in the sense of 'a coin' anywhere.  The word कर्ष appears once in Rigveda 5.83.7 but there it means 'pulling down'.

The earliest that we can go back is the period of the Mauryas.

Arvind Kolhatkar.

[ken p]

Here are more links but may not answer specific question !

http://www.sushmajee.com/reldictionary/dictionary/page-M/measure-weight.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_weights_and_measures

http://www.indiacurry.com/Miscel/indiahistoricweightsmeasure.htm

[Taff Rivers]

Arvind,

   The request is for information. 

   Forum members have already provided useful resources,that give solid evidence viz. silver & copper coinage.

   Here's yet another such a one, middle ages included :

    http://worldiswide2020.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/old-coins-of-india.html

    Such is useful as an aid to dating the age periods of ancient literature. Manuscripts are only as reliable as the memories of the script writer.

    Time, may be eternal, but documents are not.

    Sliver and copper coin last a bit longer and are carbon dateable.

    Then again, there are the stone and terracotta rebuses of the famous Indus regions, current studies are recent, work is ongoing.

     Maybe in the dry sands beneath lost temples of old... 

Taff

   A professional R & D person, Retd,

[Shrivathsa B]

hariH OM,

I got the following definition (slightly than that given by shrii aravind) here:

पञ्चगुञ्जाप्रमाणं तु माष इत्यभिधीयते ।

माषैः षोडशभिः कर्षः पलं कर्षचतुष्टयं ॥ इति कर्षलक्षणम् ॥

This is in a book called राममहादर्शनम् published by Svarnavalli matha, Karnataka, page 25. There is no reference given for this.

svasti,

       JAYA BHAVAANII BHAARATII,

                                                   shrivathsa.

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[Margie Parikh]

Exactly!

I have searched google, also dictionaries, but when the information is "this OR that OR something else..." then it becomes impossible to visualize or establish relationships.

Especially, as I have also quoted verses from Shukraniti, there is the whole hierarchy of kings, established based on their earnings. I want to estimate it and compare it with the average income of CEOs (equalizing for inflation).

So, thanks to all the others, but general suggestions won't work for me unfortunately :(

Pranam to Bhat Mahodaya.

[Margie Parikh]

Thank you!

I will work with some estimates and see what the outcomes look like, especially with the copper and silver coineage.

Best wishes,

margie

[Margie Parikh]

Thanks, sir!

Well, I wonger if there may be some records, especially in Shukraniti there is a great emphasis on recording - so many things, actually. He insists in different places that one record one's investments and loans, the king keep records of his finances and other affairs, and even that his officials should not accept any order even from the king if it is not in writing!

So, I thought that if there were any writings (elsewhere) on Karshas, then I could draw interesting analogy between the top-earning CEOs of today vs the kings of various stature of the yester years -  in the times when Shukraniti was written.

Best wishes,

margie

[ken p]

लक्षकर्षमितो भागो राजतो यस्य जायते ।

वत्सरे वत्सरे नित्यं प्रजानान्त्वविपीडनैः ॥ १-१८३ ॥

सामन्तः स नृपः प्रोक्तो यावल्लक्षत्रयावधि ।

तदूर्ध्वं दशलक्षान्तो नृपो माण्डलिकः समृतः ॥ १-१८४ ॥

तदूर्ध्वन्तु भवेद्राजा यावद् विंशतिलक्षकः ।

पञ्चाशल्लक्षपर्य्यन्तो महाराजः प्रकीर्त्तितः ॥ १-१८५ ॥

Margie,

Please provide translation for these Shlokas if available.

https://www.baldwin.co.uk/media/cms/auction-archive/auction-71/Indian%20Coins%20Lots%201243-1488.pdf

[Margie Parikh]

That head of a territory with an annual income of up to one hundred thousand Karsha coins, collected without oppressing the subjects, is called a ‘Samanta’. Above that, the one with the annual income of (more than one lakh but) up to three lakh (karsha) is called a Nrupa. The one with income (of more than three lakh but) up to ten lakh Karsha coins are called 'Mandalika'. Above him, is a ‘raja’ with an annual income of twenty Lakh. The one with annual income of up to five million is known as ‘maharaja’. [and there is more of this hierarchy]

On Saturday, 9 April 2016 23:08:07 UTC+5:30, ken p wrote:

लक्षकर्षमितो भागो राजतो यस्य जायते ।

वत्सरे वत्सरे नित्यं प्रजानान्त्वविपीडनैः ॥ १-१८३ ॥

सामन्तः स नृपः प्रोक्तो यावल्लक्षत्रयावधि ।

तदूर्ध्वं दशलक्षान्तो नृपो माण्डलिकः स्मृतः ॥ १-१८४ ॥

[Margie Parikh]

Namaskara sarvebhaya:!

I found one little clue in another section of Shukraniti text. It said:

भवेत् क्रोशात्मको ग्रामो रूप्यकर्षसहस्त्रकः ।

ग्रामार्द्धकं पल्लिसंज्ञं पल्लयर्द्धं कुम्भसंज्ञकम् ॥ १-१९३ ॥

Now "rUpya" according to Monier-Williams, is:

(1) bearing a stamp, stamped, impressed

(2) silver; wrought silver, silver or gold bearing a stamp or impression, stamped 

coin;

So, although  I also crunched some numbers based on the possibility that it was a reference to copper coins, I could understand the following about annual income in Karsha:

-> Additional information to convert Karsha into familiar weight is:

1 Karsha (copper) = 80 Rattis

but

1 Karsha (silver) = 2 Rattis

1 Ratti = 0.182 Grams, therefore 1 silver Karsha = 0.364 grams

At yesterday's price (economic times), silver was Rs. 40,141 / Kilo (1,000 grams)

So, 

1 Karsha at yesterday's price valued Rs. 14.611

Now the "stable annual income generated by tax collection without oppressing (exploiting?) the subjects:

... as per the verses I shared earlier.

It was some good time - pass yesterday, a day off.

Vandana.

margie

On Friday, 8 April 2016 20:52:54 UTC+5:30, hn bhat wrote:

[Hnbhat B.R.]

Do you think yesterdays value of Economic Times existed during 11th to 14th century BC you were enquring?

[Taff Rivers]

Margie,

 You need to take into account prices of goods and services during the period of time that you are measuring.

To quote from the Economist on the subject of Inflation:

INFLATION is a simple concept, but price rises are surprisingly hard to measure. First, statisticians must work out what stuff people buy, and in what proportions (the “basket” of goods). Then they must track the prices of those goods over time. Finally they must decide how to account for new products, changing tastes and the fact that if the price of, say, apples rises, some people will buy another fruit instead rather than pay more.

The problem is the data - the prices of those goods over time.

And as with most things, there are differing schools of thought on how Inflation is to be measured. 

I invested in some postage  stamps. Penny blacks and a twopenny blue.

They deflated. I am still waiting for the price to rise above what they cost me.

More than the prices of postage stamps is needed in the yardstick.

And then agreement is required on what constituents to include in those yardsticks...

Good luck with your researches.

  Taff

[Margie Parikh]

Namastey Mahoday Bhat and Mahoday Rivers,

No, the attempt was just to see how much would that quantity of silver cost at today's price - assuming of course, that it reflected the denominated value (for example, a one rupee coin or one rupee note may cost more in making that the value it carries). Yes, I understand the complexities of Macroeconomics, but at the first go it really seemed exciting. My first trouble was to understand what the Karsha could be made of etc. Now that that is done, the rest is about improvising the estimate and fine-tuning, and I felt so good that I thought I will share it with you all! Thank you!

margie