[samskrita]Devanagari alphabetical order

[G S S Murthy]

Dear all,

In Sanskrit to another language dictionaries, अनुस्वार followed by य,र,ल,व (अन्तस्थ), श,ष,स (ऊष्म) comes right at the beginning, that is, before क,च,ट,त,प (स्पर्श). For example, अंश comes before अगाध, कंस comes before ककुभ्. What is the logic in this ordering? Perhaps this feature is common for other Indian language dictionaries.

My view is that before the advent of western scholars, Indian languages did not have alphabetical listing. If at all, words were listed based on the end letter as can be seen in अमरकोश.

Scholars could throw light on this.

Regards,
Murthy

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[Arvind_Kolhatkar]

For this, please see the Table and the narration under 'The
Dictionary Order of The Nagari Letters' which appears at the beginning
of Monier Williams' Dictionary.

What I understood from there is that his arrangement has all vowels
from अ to औ at the beginning, followed by what he calls as 'true
Anusvara' and visarga, next followed by letters क्, ख् etc. The
'true Anusvara' is explained by him in the Note below the Table as the
one appearing before the sibilants श् ष् स्, ह् and semivowels य् र्
ल् व्.

Arvind Kolhatkar, Toronto, October 29, 2011.

[Eddie Hadley]

Charles Wikner, goes into some detail in regards to word order and anusvāra, as employed in the MW.

 

This may be of help:

    http://www.danam.co.uk/Sanskrit/Sanskrit%20Introductory/13%20Lesson.pdf

 

For printed material, Monier-Williams found it necessary to standardise the placement of words for such dictionaries.

As to ‘word order’, which is more to do with standardising the form of the Devanāgarī letters, he explains at some length, in his introduction.

 

The origin of the alphabetical order itself, goes back in time, and is one for the historians.

 

    Eddie

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[Vidya R]

We are taught / teach akSharamAlA order as :

अ  आ इ ई उ ऊ ऋ ॠ लृ ए ऐ ओ औ अं अः 

The last two - aM and aH of-course cannot occur on their own (as M / H), without a vowel, and can occur with all the vowels (aM AM uM UM, and aH AH iH IH ...)  (even though included in the list only with the vowel 'a').

When in a word, this 'M' transforms into corresponding वर्गीय-अनुनासिका (ङ् ञ् न् ण् म् ) when 'M' is followed by a   वर्गीय-व्यञ्जनम् |  This pushes the word further down the list (alphabetic order) to the specific 'varga'.

the visarga occurs rarely embedded in a word, and when it does, it probably appears right after the M (anunAsikA followed by y, r, l, v, sh, Sh, s, h)

Vidya

---

From: G S S Murthy <murt...@gmail.com>
To: sams...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 11:18 AM
Subject: [Samskrita] [samskrita]Devanagari alphabetical order

[hnbhat B.R.]

It is very simple in logic. In the alphabetical order, the vowel is followed by the next vowel a, i, u etc. which is followed by the consonants. The अनुस्वार and विसर्ग properly do not come within the list of alphabets as listed by Panini, but a form of the nasal consonants before another consonant and aspirate for the "s" in conjunction with a number of sequences of consonants and stand alone at the end of a inflected word. This is the position. 

To be precise, two vowels a-i do not normally follow usually in a word except in the MaheshvarasUtra-s and some rarelly met words we had met. So before any other consonant in the list of words in the alphabetic order, the अनुस्वार and विसर्ग has to be placed in its own right as it is always attached to a vowel and no other vowel can follow it normally. Hence it is not placed at the end of the list. Anyhow Monier Williams calls the "anusvAra" in its true sense as they are natural ones without any optional assimilation with the following consonant like in the case of consonants क to म with their corresponding nasals. The option is open in the external Sandhi-s and in the case of internal sandhi-s it is obligatory (i.e. aअङ्ग, गङ्गा, डिण्डिम etc) which can be considered as natural of their own, which should follow their order in their वर्ग. 

It could well be placed after all the consonants following अ in the initial position, well, before the list of आ begins. I remember having seen such order too in some indexes.   But in any case, they could not occupy their own place in the alphabetical order after the list words beginning with consonants ends. 

For a discussion on the reverse Sanskrit Dictionary about the order in Sanskrit Lexicons/Thesaurus, please see this link in another forum:

http://groups.google.com/group/bvparishat/browse_thread/thread/3adca7103855b514/4eb1bcb1e1bc788f?hl=en-GB_IN&lnk=gst&q=reverse+index#

The निघण्टु and कोश works are a sort of Thesaurus than an alphabetical Dictionary in the modern concept and the purpose served by these कोश works vary in their design according to their subject and most of them in versified form to facilitate memorizing them than a reference work like a modern Dictionary. This point had already been discussed in another thread in this group itself long ago.

http://groups.google.com/group/samskrita/browse_thread/thread/ea187a0f37014d84/d740cf3ba1a31869?hl=en-GB_IN&lnk=gst&q=Alphabetical+Order#d740cf3ba1a31869

Sorry for the lengthy message.  

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Research Scholar,

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[murthy]

Thanks for all the explanations.

Regards

Murthy

[murthy]

I believe as per Indian order of alphabets (वर्णमाला),  किञ्जल्क, किम्पुरुष and then किंशुक.

Apparently MW or some western predecessor of his ordained otherwise as किंशुक, किञ्जल्क, किम्पुरुष. And all others followed.

Regards

Murthy

----- Original Message -----

From: Eddie Hadley

To: sams...@googlegroups.com

[Subrahmanian R]

The anuswara occurring before

श ष स ह is pronounced closer to 'm'  by South Indians [samskritam, vamsam, hamsam etc] while North Indians and across the world [from the transliterations and also from my interactions with people in Varanasi] pronounce it closer to 'n'. This ambiguity in pronounciation is a cause as to its position in alphabetical order.

 

Then what is anuswara and what is half anuswara written with a crescent? Can somebody enlighten me?

 

The substitution of anuswara [a dot at the top] for halanta ma or any other nasal is permitted only in the middle of a word or middle of combined word. Anuswara in place of halanta ma is permitted at the end of a word but not at the end of line. eg

 

रामं लक्ष्मणपूर्वजं रघुवरं सीतापतिं सुन्दरम् and not सुन्दरं

I doubt if Panini's grammar extends to the script.

R Subrahmanian

[Nityanand Misra]

Anusvara is a pure nasal sound, as LSK says naasikaa.anusvaarasya 

Also line and sentence are different - the quarter or cara.na you quoted from raamarak.saastotra in fact ends with anusvaara as it is followed by 

kaakutstha.m karu.naar.nava.m etc

It is common to see anusvaara at end of first and third quarters (what you call lines).

 
Sent from my iPhone

[Priya]

Actually, Panini ensures that the 'm' at the end of a sentence
remains
as 'm' and does not switch to anusvara without having to bother about
script/ sentence issues. The sutra mo'nusvaarah (8.3.23) just
specifies
that a 'm' at the end of any word will switch to an anusvaara if it is
followed
by a 'hal' i.e. a consonant. And as the 'm' at the end of a sentence
is not
followed by anything, it is therefore not followed by a consonant
either, so
the 'm' does not switch to anusvaara and remains as 'm'. Hope this
helps.

As for the difference between anusvaara and half anusvaara (with a
crescent),
the first one is a true anusvaara, and the second is referred to as
anunaasika. To the best of my understanding, anunaasika is a nasalized
vowel attached to the preceding consonant, and anusvaara is a pure
nasal
(naasiko anusvaarasya and nya-ma-nga-Na-na-naam naasika ca).

--priya

On Oct 30, 10:22 pm, Subrahmanian R <subrahmani...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The anuswara occurring before
> श ष स ह is pronounced closer to 'm'  by South Indians [samskritam, vamsam,
> hamsam etc] while North Indians and across the world [from the
> transliterations and also from my interactions with people in Varanasi]
> pronounce it closer to 'n'. This ambiguity in pronounciation is a cause as
> to its position in alphabetical order.
>
> Then what is anuswara and what is half anuswara written with a crescent?
> Can somebody enlighten me?
>
> The substitution of anuswara [a dot at the top] for halanta ma or any other
> nasal is permitted only in the middle of a word or middle of combined word.
> Anuswara in place of halanta ma is permitted at the end of a word but not
> at the end of line. eg
>
> रामं लक्ष्मणपूर्वजं रघुवरं सीतापतिं सुन्दरम् and not सुन्दरं
>
> I doubt if Panini's grammar extends to the script.
> R Subrahmanian
>

> On 30 October 2011 18:17, murthy <murthy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > **

>
> > I believe as per Indian order of alphabets (वर्णमाला),  किञ्जल्क,

> > किम्पुरुष and then किंशुक.******

>
> > Apparently MW or some western predecessor of his ordained otherwise as किंशुक,

> > किञ्जल्क, किम्पुरुष. And all others followed.****
>
> > Regards****
>
> > Murthy****
>
> >  ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* Eddie Hadley <EddieHad...@Ontology.demon.co.uk>
> > *To:* sams...@googlegroups.com
> > *Sent:* Sunday, October 30, 2011 4:39 AM
> > *Subject:* Re: [Samskrita] Re: Devanagari alphabetical order
>
> >  Charles Wikner, goes into some detail in regards to word order and *
> > anusvāra,* as employed in the MW.

>
> > This may be of help:
>
> >http://www.danam.co.uk/Sanskrit/Sanskrit%20Introductory/13%20Lesson.pdf
>

> > For *printed material*, Monier-Williams found it necessary to *standardise
> > * the *placement* of words for such dictionaries.
> > As to ‘word order’, which is more to do with standardising the *form* of

[Hnbhat B.R.]

I doubt if Panini's grammar extends to the script.

R Subrahmanian

Anyway the question has been answered differently. I don't think Panini has said anything about the script in his grammar. He has mentioned one word यवनानी secondarily derived word from यवन in the feminine formation suffix which has been interpreted as the script of यवन-s. But not anything about देवनागरी script we use now and in 3-2-21 he explains the formation of the word लिपिकर  to mean the scribe. Apart from these, he never formed any rules regarding the script.

 There are many other conventions to present orthographically the forms derived from Vedic Grammar used in writing the Vedic Texts which have already been discussed in another thread meant for it.

http://groups.google.com/group/samskrita/browse_thread/thread/4b38dc335f5c8caf/0c997c367ec1677a?lnk=gst&q=rotated+#0c997c367ec1677a