Soup or सुप

[Sita Raama]

Namaste, 

I am attaching a screen shot from C.S.Vasu's book two, page 26 from meaning of sutra 2.1.9

Here he mentioned सुपप्रति  = a little of soup 

Is this correct?

Thanks for your help. 

[Hnbhat B.R.]

Please read well before you post anything. I can read only सूपप्रति in the text.

and it is correct also.

--
Dr. Hari Narayana Bhat B.R. M.A., Ph.D.,
Research Scholar,

Ecole française d'Extrême-OrientCentre de Pondichéry

16 & 19, Rue Dumas

Pondichéry - 605 001

[Sita Raama]

I also read सूपप्रति 

शाकप्रति - little of vegetable  ( शाक  = vegetable )

सूपप्रति  - a little of soup ( सूप  must mean - soup)

my question was if english Soup and Sanskrit सूप mean the same? 

can you tell me which part I missed and did not read well before posting a question here? 

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[Arvind_Kolhatkar]

Dear Group,

The closeness of meaning between the Sanskrit 'सूप ' and the English 'soup' was noticed by me several decades ago when I came across the verse -

यस्य नास्ति निजा प्रज्ञा केवलं तु बहुश्रुत:।

न स जानाति शास्त्रार्थं दर्वी सूपरसानिव॥

Till date I have wondered about it but have not come across an answer.  MW says that the Sanskrit सूप is of doubtful origin and the origin of the English does not appear to be very old, nor is there any connection between the two etymologies.

Or is it a mere coincidence?

Arvind Kolhatkar, Toronto, June 19, 2012.

[Nityanand Misra]

English soup has a long history till Proto-Germanic and Proto-Indo-European as given in my other post.

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|| आत्मा तत्त्वमसि श्वेतकेतो ||
(Thou art from/for/of/in That Ātman, O Śvetaketu)
     - Ṛṣi Uddālaka to his son, Chāndogyopaniṣad 6.8.7, The Sāma Veda

[Nityanand Misra]

Dear Śrīsītārāma

The words are indeed quite close. And it is not very surprising. As per Etymology Dictionary by Douglas Harper, the etymology of English "soup" is French from Latin from Germanic from Proto-German from Proto-Indo European.

"liquid food," 1650s, from Fr. soupe "soup, broth," from L.L. suppa "bread soaked in broth," from a Germanic source (cf. M.Du. sop "sop, broth"), from P.Gmc. base *supp-, from PIE *sub-, from root *seue- "to take liquid" (see sup (2)). Primordial soup is from a concept first expressed 1929 by J.B.S. Haldane. Soup kitchen is attested from 1839. In Ireland, souper meant "Protestant clergyman seeking to make proselytes by dispensing soup in charity" (1854).

It is likely that the PIE *sub- became सूप in Samskrita. The Samskrit word सूप has other meanings too, including a cook and hence सूपशास्त्र (the art of cooking). Monier Williams says doubtful derivation, while Apte counts it it in पृषोदरादिगण explaining as सुखेन पीयते सु + पा + घञर्थे क. 

Thanks, Nityanand

[Adolf von Württemberg]

प्रिय Arvind,

Yes, Sanskrit सूप is strongly suggestive of English “soup”! After checking my various etymological sources I found that “soup” can be traced back to Old English (c. 800 AD) and to Old Norse. There is a hypothetical form in Proto-Germanic and thence to Indo-European, the root source of Hittite, Sanskrit इत्यादि. A derivative in the Germanic languages is “slurp” (“schlürfen” in German). E.g. to slurp your savory soup. The following is the citation from the German Petersburger Wörterbuch (1855):

सूप
7-1169 (click to see original page) [L=112303]
UṆĀDIS. 3, 26. m.
1) Brühe, Suppe, dünnes Mus, namentlich aus geschrotenen Hülsenfrüchten mit Zuthat von Wurzeln und Salz bereitet TRIK. 3, 3, 213. H. 397. an. 2, 237. MED. p. 13. VIŚVA bei UJJVAL. दाली सलिले सिद्धा लवणार्द्रकहिङ्गुभिः संयुक्ता सूपनाम्नी स्यात् BHĀVAPR. 5. CARAKA 2, 6. SUŚR. 2, 64, 2. यूषसूपविकल्पाः 167, 4. शाकसूपान्नमांसानि 247, 12. 1, 230, 3. P. 6, 2, 128. 7, 3, 69 , {Vârtt.}, Schol. M. 3, 226. MBH. 4, 29. 239. HARIV. 8190. R. 1, 53, 3. 2, 91, 66. न स जानाति शास्त्रार्थं दर्वी सूपरसानिव Spr. (II) 5378. MBH. 10, 178. BHĀG. P. 10, 24, 26. मूलकसूप P. 6, 2, 128, Schol. मुद्गसूप 135, Schol. CARAKA 1, 7. माष° 27. SUŚR. 1, 74, 16. 2, 156, 13. VĀGBH. 1, 7, 33. VARĀH. BṚH. S. 76, 8. सूपौदन CARAKA 1, 15. SUŚR. 1, 240, 21. --
2) Koch TRIK. H. 723. H. an. MED. VIŚVA a. a. O. Vielleicht hierher सूपी f. {gaṇa} गौरादि zu P. 4, 1, 41. --
3) = भाण्ड und शायक (d. i. सायक) ŚABDAR. im ŚKDR. -- Vgl. सौपिक.

 

 

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[Hnbhat B.R.]

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 10:30 PM, Sita Raama <raam...@gmail.com> wrote:

I also read सूपप्रति 

शाकप्रति - little of vegetable  ( शाक  = vegetable )

सूपप्रति  - a little of soup ( सूप  must mean - soup)

my question was if english Soup and Sanskrit सूप mean the same? 

can you tell me which part I missed and did not read well before posting a question here? 

Here he mentioned सुपप्रति  = a little of soup 

Is this correct?

 

The above is the line of your own question and see which part you missed in the text. And also see the subject line also. How can I understand the intention of your question from the line in your original message?

[Hnbhat B.R.]

On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 2:52 AM, Adolf von Württemberg <wolf...@bellsouth.net> wrote:

प्रिय Arvind,

Yes, Sanskrit सूप is strongly suggestive of English “soup”! After checking my various etymological sources I found that “soup” can be traced back to Old English (c. 800 AD) and to Old Norse. There is a hypothetical form in Proto-Germanic and thence to Indo-European, the root source of Hittite, Sanskrit इत्यादि. A derivative in the Germanic languages is “slurp” (“schlürfen” in German). E.g. to slurp your savory soup. The following is the citation from the German Petersburger Wörterbuch (1855):

सूप
7-1169 (click to see original page) [L=112303]
UṆĀDIS. 3, 26. m.
1) Brühe, Suppe, dünnes Mus, namentlich aus geschrotenen Hülsenfrüchten mit Zuthat von Wurzeln und Salz bereitet TRIK. 3, 3, 213. H. 397. an. 2, 237. MED. p. 13. VIŚVA bei UJJVAL. दाली सलिले सिद्धा लवणार्द्रकहिङ्गुभिः संयुक्ता सूपनाम्नी स्यात् BHĀVAPR. 5. CARAKA 2, 6. SUŚR. 2, 64, 2. यूषसूपविकल्पाः 167, 4. शाकसूपान्नमांसानि 247, 12. 1, 230, 3. P. 6, 2, 128. 7, 3, 69 , {Vârtt.}, Schol. M. 3, 226. MBH. 4, 29. 239. HARIV. 8190. R. 1, 53, 3. 2, 91, 66. न स जानाति शास्त्रार्थं दर्वी सूपरसानिव Spr. (II) 5378. MBH. 10, 178. BHĀG. P. 10, 24, 26. मूलकसूप P. 6, 2, 128, Schol. मुद्गसूप 135, Schol. CARAKA 1, 7. माष° 27. SUŚR. 1, 74, 16. 2, 156, 13. VĀGBH. 1, 7, 33. VARĀH. BṚH. S. 76, 8. सूपौदन CARAKA 1, 15. SUŚR. 1, 240, 21. --
2) Koch TRIK. H. 723. H. an. MED. VIŚVA a. a. O. Vielleicht hierher सूपी f. {gaṇa} गौरादि zu P. 4, 1, 41. --
3) = भाण्ड und शायक (d. i. सायक) ŚABDAR. im ŚKDR. -- Vgl. सौपिक.

 

It can be near to English soup, historically. But it does not entail both are used for the same thing for millennium to denote the same material or dish in both the languages and cultures. For Sanskrit, at least Sushruta and others attest to the nature of the dish at their time, which is even today used as in Hindi as दाल. I don't know about other languages and their usages of soup. 

 

[Sita Raama]

Namaste Dr. Bhat, 

Sorry for the confusion in the question, I should have been more careful in framing my question to avoid ambiguity. 

regards

Raama