devanagari

[P.K.Ramakrishnan]

The script being used to write Sanskrit is called Deavanagari.  The same

script is used for Maraatti and Hindi.

A modified form of Devanagari is used for Gujarati, Gurumukhi, Bengali

and Oriya.

Can some one point out how the word Devanagari came about.

 

-----------------------------------
P.K.Ramakrishnan
http://peekayar.blogspot.com

[Arvind_Kolhatkar]

Why only Devanagari?  There are quite a few other very basic terms we take for granted but whose antiquity and source are not known - Hindu, Sanskrit, Brahmi, to name a few.

Arvind Kolhatkar, Toronto, September 13, 2012.

[Hnbhat B.R.]

Very simple answer is that when Sanskrit became to be called देवभाषा, the script used for writing is also called देवनागरी. Like, the same variation used to write ग्रन्थ साहिब् - of गुरुनानक is called गुरुमुखी, though the Language is Punjabee. A variety of ग्रन्थ script, commonly developed for writing Sanskrit in Malayalam and Tamil mixed, script is called Thulu script used to write Sanskrit in Tulu language speaking area, and the same is designed as Tigalari script in north Karnataka, where Tulu is not the regional language. In Malayalam speaking area, it is read fluently as well as Malayalam script and in Tamil speaking area, it is popularly known as Grantha script, though there is minor script.

Now the question again comes, why Devanagari is only called as such, while Sanskrit was written in different scripts, even in another variety of Devanagari, called Nandi Nagari, which is used in the South Indian Inscriptions and palm-leaves to write Sanskrit only.

All are evolved from Brahmi script or Indus Script accordingly modified and named in different regions according to their emotional attachment, as Nandi Nagari, Devanagari etc. And for antiquity, though Panini names यवनानीas the name of the scriptलिपिof यवन-s, he doesn't even give any derivation or mention toदेवनागरीscript we are fond of using to write Sanskrit today. How to prove the antiquity? Panini only names भाषाand छन्दस्.

 

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Dr. Hari Narayana Bhat B.R. M.A., Ph.D.,
Research Scholar,

Ecole française d'Extrême-OrientCentre de Pondichéry

16 & 19, Rue Dumas

Pondichéry - 605 001

[G.L.N.Murthy]

Dear friends the sanskrit grammarians say that Devanagari means that Script which is used  in the Nagarass(cities) where Devathas(gods) live.Hence the name Devanagari-GLN Murthy

 

GLN

From: Arvind_Kolhatkar <kolhat...@gmail.com>
To: sams...@googlegroups.com
Cc: P.K.Ramakrishnan <peek...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 8:46 AM
Subject: [Samskrita] Re: devanagari

Why only Devanagari?  There are quite a few other very basic terms we take for granted but whose antiquity and source are not known - Hindu, Sanskrit, Brahmi, to name a few.

Arvind Kolhatkar, Toronto, September 13, 2012.

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[Hnbhat B.R.]

On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 11:07 AM, G.L.N.Murthy <lnmg...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Dear friends the sanskrit grammarians say that Devanagari means that Script which is used  in the Nagarass(cities) where Devathas(gods) live.Hence the name Devanagari-GLN Murthy

 

GLN

Please quote the lines of the grammarian who has said it with precise reference. The meaning can be derived by anyone who know Sanskrit. 

नगरे भवाः नागराः, तेषामियं नागरी, देवानां नगरम् - देवनगरम्, तत्र भवा देवनागराः, तेषामियं देवनागरी, but such derivations do not say anything about the script. It can be said of any thing belonging to a city of देव-s. If there is any specific Grammarian quotes any source, that would be enough. Grammar has nothing to do with the script as far as I know and hasn't anything to do with the script in which it is written. Grammar is independent of the script used to record the spoken language (as a written language).

Anyhow thanks for the information. Waiting for the precise information.

[Jagannatha s]

          As Dr.H.N.Bhat says, all scripts are evolved from Brahmi script. Gradually, several variations were developed from this Brahmi. Broadly these variations  (of our country )  can be classified as Southern Brahmi  and Northern Brahmi. All the Northern Indian  scripts like Sharada, Ranjana,Kutila, Bengali, Oriya, Gurumukhi, Nagari are offshoots of this variety.

 Nagari is  a script of city as the name itself suggests. Devanagari  is  a variety of old Nagari. The word Deva here means (most probably) Mahadeva. (Naamaikadeshagrahanena naamagrahanam) According to the popular belief, Mahadeva dwells in Kashi. Devanagara means Kashi. The script which was in vogue in and around Devanagara(=Kashi)  was called Devanagari.

 

The correct word derivation of  Nandinagari is disputable. 

 

Vatteluttu,  Koleluttu, Tamilu, Grantha, Kannada, Telugu, Tigalari and Malayalam-these are offshoots of  Southern Brahmi.

 

Grantha means Samskrta Grantha. Samskrta cannot be written correctly in Tamilu because of lack of some phonetic symbols (particularly, some ghosha varnas of grouped consonants). In order to tackle this problem, Samskrta scholars of Tamilunadu invented a separate script which is used exclusively for writing Samskrta  and that is Grantha script. This Grantha is still in use in some places of  Tamilunadu. Even today some places of  Tamilunadu. like Kanchi and Kumbhakonam have some letter presses of Grantha script.

Malayalam is evolved from Grantha. In between Grantha and Malayalam, a sub variety emerged which is called Tigalari. It was very popular in some areas of  Karnataka ( Kasaragodu, Honnavara, Udupi etc..) Tigalari script was used to write Samskrta profusely. But a few Kannada works and Tulu works are available in this script. Hence, the name Tulu script is a misnomer.(I do know that there is an entry Tuluscript in Wikipedea.The name is wrong according to Sri Gundajois of Keladi who is specialist in Tigalari script ).

 

Samskrta can be written in several scripts. (Outside of our country- Bhota or Tibetan, Simhali, Khmer etc.) Now everywhere people are using Devanagari for writing Samskrta. In the days of manuscripts, all the scholars used the scripts that were in vogue in their living region. Even while printing the Samskrrta works, printers used scripts of their  region. The reason  why Devanagari  is used widely for writing  Samskrta now a days is obvious: Firstly, there were more letter presses in Northern India in the places like Kashi. It was  quite natural that they were printing the books of both Hindi and Samskrta in Devanagari. Secondly, the letter presses like Nirnayasagara used a wide variety of sizes in  fonts as well bold, italic and the like. They used very good  quality paper in the books. But in letterpresses like Vidyamudraksharashaala in Mysore, only one font without varieties was used. Even the  paper quality was not praiseworthy. Gradually scholars of  non-devanagari belt were attracted to  Devanagari  and started to learn Devanagari.

 

But, even today, writing Samskrta in non-devanagari scripts is not uncommon as all of us  know. It is not correct to say that Samskrta shall be written in only Devanagari. If you want to  write Samskrta in Oriya script, write in Oriya script, that’s all.

 

Devanagari is widely used while writing Samskrta and  it is because of practicality. The Devanagari version of  Shabdakalpadruma which we are now seeing is of second edition. In the first edition, Vanga script was used to  print it.

 

Some of  the scripts like Sharada Kutila, Ranjana, Nandinagari and Tigalari are not used now. Fortunately hundreds of scholars are available who know these scripts. But obviously they have learnt these scripts  for  research purpose and not daily use.

 

The popular belief that, one  script for one language and vice versa  is not correct. One(single)script can be used for  writing several languages like Roman and Devanagari.  One(Single)language can be written in several scripts like Samskrta.

 

S.Jagannatha

On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 11:07 AM, G.L.N.Murthy <lnmg...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Hnbhat B.R.]

A comparatively good analysis. The paleography deals with the different writing systems and technical science dealing with the scripts used for inscriptions. The other usage of script for writing Sanskrit depends on the script used by the regional languages, if they have any independently developed script or common offshoot of one pair like Telugu and Kannada and Tamil and Malayalam. 

Here is an account of the development of modern Devanagari script, but not attested with proofs:

http://acharya.iitm.ac.in/sanskrit/script_dev.php 

Here is the Vikipedia articles page Devanagari development from original Brahmi:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devanagari 

Here is an article in  Hindi or Marathi:

http://himalaya.socanth.cam.ac.uk/collections/journals/kailash/pdf/kailash_02_0102_03.pdf

Thanks for many responses and especially the recent one by Mr.Jagannath. The prohibition of reciting by looking into the written material, appears in Paniniya shiksha itself:

गीती शीघ्री शिरःकम्पी तथा लिखितपाठकः । अनर्थज्ञोऽल्पकण्ठश्च षडेते पाठकाधमाः ॥ ।। ३२ ।। माधुर्यमक्षरव्यक्तिः पदच्छेदस्तु सुस्वरः । 

धैर्यं लयसमर्थं च षडेते पाठकाः गुणाः ।। ३३ ।

which attests the practice of writing prevalent at the Time of writing Paniniya shiksha itself.

Many speculations may be made why it is called देवनागरी, in contrast with नागरी, and नन्दिनागरी and only any written proof would settle the matter, other than mere etymology which may vary according to the speculations. 

[G.L.N.Murthy]

sir ,This is from the book Sansrutha vyakarana sangraham) (samjna Prakaranam)published by the Telugu akadamy,Hyderabd(1992 reprint) of second edition1985.It was written by Dr.Diwakarla Vekatavadhani.Edited by Dr Ganti Jogi somayaji.The introduction says that the book is based on the works fo Sri M.R.Kale in English on sanskrit vykaranas,D.K Rajguru's vykarana,Dr Bhandarkar's Vykarana part I and part part II and Dr Pullela sreeramachandrudu's Laghu sidhantha Kaumudi.This is my first book on sanskrit and I beleive that the above personalities are "Labdhapratishtas" in their own field.As this book is for students of sanskrit  they have not quoted any slokas there-Murthy

 

 

GLN

From: Hnbhat B.R. <hnbh...@gmail.com>
To: sams...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Samskrita] Re: devanagari

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[Jagannatha s]

1.Writing started in India only after development of Praakrta.

Please consider these points:

uta tvah pashyan  na dadarsha vacham uta tvah shrnvan na shrnotyenam|

Uto tvasmai tanvam visasre jaayeva patya ushatii suvaasaah ||(Rigveda 10.71.4)

dadarsha vaacham. Darshana of a language means seeing a script. Otherwise there is no seeing. [shronotyenaam. Shravana of this(=language ) means hearing a voice]

Creation of  padapaatha, ghanapaatha, and even very complicated jataapaatha  require a vedic text in written form.

Composing Nirukta  of Yaska necessitates a vedic text in written form.

Governance of Kings in  Vedic era needed  a script for issuing written orders /messages .

2 Grantha is not used in print.

Thousands of books are printed.  I downloaded soft copy of   vishvaguna darsha champu printed in grantha script.

 

On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 10:29 AM, R. Sivaramakrishna Sharma <arunagi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste,

While the classification of South Indian and North Indian writing systems is but inevitable, Brahmi for a very long time was "standard" throughout the country, with  small (negligible) variations among the Mahajanapadas. Another interesting fact is that Tamil had it's own variation of Brahmi (known today as Tamil Brahmi). Only with the passage of time did Brahmi take different forms in different parts of the country.

One more interesting fact is that for ages, Brahmi was not used for writing Sanskrit! on the contarary it was widely used for writing Prakrit. As explained earlier, writing tradition of Sanskrit began quite recently after the development of Prakrit etc.

As far as the children of "Southern Brahmi" is concerned, the order and the hierarchy is that all of the present systems trace their ancestry to Grantha which inturn developed from Brahmi. Grantha evolved into the myriad writing systems in the South, itself being re-factored atleast twice over a preiod of about 1500 years.

Vattelutu and Vettelutu are two "styles" or writing Tamil, not two scripts. Koleluttu is a cursive informal way or writing Vattelutu used primarily in Chera territories in the pre 1700 era.

Grantha script is NOT used in print. Letterpresses are all but gone and the last printing press with Grantha "type" officially disbanded their Grantha "pieces" in circa 2007 (Rajan & Co., Madras). Today all Grantha material is either "fascimiled" or litho'ed for printing purposes.

As far as Nandinagari goes, this script was extensively employed for writing Sanskrit 'Granthas' between circa 1200 and 1900 in the reigon that was once the Vijayanagara Empire. The use of this script is extensively found throughout Karnataka and parts of "Rayalaseema" in Andhra. Further more interesting is that the numeral system of this script is identical to Telugu/Kannada. A majority of the Sanskrit "olai" (palm-leaf) manuscripts in Karnataka are exclusively written in this script. As stated earlier Nandinagari has a close resemblence to the "old" Nagari. More interesting is that, of all the Nagari variants, this is less curvy and more blocky with sharp edges, optimised for writing (etching) with a pointed stylus, contrary to using ink on palm-leaf.

One linguist remarked that the word Nandi in NagariNagari may have roots in "Trilinga" (Andhra) where this script was prevalent for writing scholarly Sanskrit "granthas" during the Vijayanagara rule. It is well known that both Vidyaranya and Harihara are natives of Trilinga-Desha. Personally I do not know if the Sayana Bhashyas were originally written in Grantha or Nandinagari or Bhattiprolu or Telugu (if Telugu was extant that that time).

All "foreign" scripts that were traditionally used for writing Sanskrit, including but not limited to Tibetan, Bonji etc. are derivatives to the "old" Nagari and as such a rough form of the "Varnamala" can be seen in all foreign derivations.

Regards,

R. Sivaramakrishna Sharma.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/samskrita/-/hLKQuLgn61gJ.

[shankara]

Sir,

Your reply was very much informative. Could you please elaborate, why composing of Nirukta necissitates a Vedic text in written form?

 

regards
shankara

---

From: Jagannatha s <jgra...@gmail.com>
To: sams...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, 15 September 2012 8:02 PM

Subject: Re: [Samskrita] Re: devanagari

[Hnbhat B.R.]

On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 11:41 PM, shankara <shanka...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Sir,

Your reply was very much informative. Could you please elaborate, why composing of Nirukta necissitates a Vedic text in written form?

१,१          समाम्नायः समाम्नातः स व्याख्यातव्यः

१,१          तमिमं  समाम्नायं निघण्टव इत्याचक्षते

१,१          निघण्टवः कस्मान् निगमा इमे भवन्ति।

१,१          छन्दोभ्यः समाहृत्य समाहृत्य (समाहत्य ऋ) समाम्नाताः

१,१          ते निगन्तव एव सन्तो निगमनान् निघण्टव उच्यन्त इत्य् औपमन्यवः

१,१          अपि वा हननाद् एव स्युः समाहता भवन्ति

१,१          यद् वा समाहृता भवन्ति।

---------

१,२         साक्षात्कृतधर्माण ऋषयो बभूवुः

१,२         ते अवरेभ्यो ऽसाक्षात्कृतधर्मभ्य उपदेशेन मन्त्रान्त् सम्प्रादुः

१,२         उपदेशाय ग्लायन्तो अवरे बिल्मग्रहणाय इमम् ग्रन्थं समाम्नासिषु -र्वेदांश्च  च वेदाङ्गानि च

१,२         बिल्मम् भिल्मम् भासनम् इति वा

In reply to your question, the above lines show the purpose of composing the निरुक्त according to यास्क. The highlighted lines can साक्षात्कृतधर्माणः - literates, who new to read and writing, and असाक्षात्कृतधर्माणः - illiterates, who could not read and write. to see the letters and could not read the letters. 

भासनम् - visible. 

There is nothing more than this, in the verse "mantra" quoted, to mean written form to see and not to see in the commentaries.

हननात् by piercing with कण्टक or stylo for writing, it can be समाहताः, अपि वा हननात् समाहता भवन्ति। So written form for निघण्टु could be established.!

[Jagannatha s]

Respected sir,

Thank you for references.

2012/9/16 Hnbhat B.R. <hnbh...@gmail.com>

[Jagannatha s]

I thrilled by the meaning of hananaat. Thank you once again.

2012/9/16 Jagannatha s <jgra...@gmail.com>

[shankara]

Sir,

Thank you very much for explaining this.

 

regards
shankara

---

From: Hnbhat B.R. <hnbh...@gmail.com>
To: sams...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Sunday, 16 September 2012 7:35 AM

Subject: Re: [Samskrita] Re: devanagari

[Hnbhat B.R.]

The above is the Sayana Bhashya on the Rg.10.71.4 quoted by Jagannatha, who quotes Nirukta to be referred. The relevant portion Nirukta (1.19) with the commentary of Durgacharya, is attached.
Also a screen shot pdf of the same verse quoted in Mahabhashya with the commentaries of Nagesha and "Chaya" by his disciple Vaidyanatha Payaagunde is attached.

These are traditional commentators on the Rik quoted. 

Here is are more traditional Explanatgions.

[Hnbhat B.R.]

Without much to be added in detail by Mr.Shambhu, it is enough to say "सर्वे दृश्यर्था ज्ञानार्थाः" is the accepted maxim in the field of Grammar and which the bold declaration, 

शिवसूत्र (वार्तिका) 

न सोऽस्ति प्रत्ययो लोके यः शब्दानुगमादृते । । 

अनुविद्धमिव ज्ञानं सर्वं शब्देन गम्यते । । वार्तिका१.४:५ ।

which is followed by traditional interpretations. The same is followed by modern interpretations so as to include every achievement of mankind in the Vedic Heritage or Vedic Science which is a recent trend.

It is a common usage in English also, I see - meaning to I understand, or I can physically visualize or mentally visualize both can be meant. The same case with this. 

I have no further comments on modern Interpretations either scientific or by ब्राह्मी vision of the seers.

Depends on the appetite of the reader.

[Hnbhat B.R.]

न सोऽस्ति प्रत्ययो लोके यः शब्दानुगमादृते । 

अनुविद्धं इव ज्ञानं सर्वं शब्देन भासते । । १.१३१ । । 

The above is the line from वाक्यपदीय, who declared

शब्दब्रह्मणि निष्णातः परं ब्रह्माधिगच्छति॥\

[Jagannatha s]

Nevertheless, the word Dadarsha in the context clearly means "to see", but not the "lipi" etc...

 

What is shrvana? Is it not of dhvani? Darshana belongs to  Rupa. Rupa of  what ? of Vaak.

 

Vaak means speech.

[Ref: Daiviim vaacaham ajanayanta devaah]

Rupa of  speech- what it is? Is it not form of speach ? what do  you mean by the form of a speach ?

 

As far as Prakriti and Vikriti pathas goes...

 

Samhitas were seen and not vikritipathas.

And as for the words Devanagari and Nagari being used interchangably, it is technically incorrect, and is exclusively confined to Tamil Nadu and parts of Kerala.

In Karnataka Nagari meant Nandinagari and not Devanagari, never.  At the catalogue of ORI mysore Nandinagari is indicated by the letter naa. It does not indicate Devanagari. For Devanagari  the cataloguers used the acronym  De

 

People get confused with the word Samskrta. They think the word indicates not only language but also the script. We  know the truth. People think that the word  English indicates both  language and script. We know that the script we use for writing English is Roman.

 

n Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 11:22 AM, R. Sivaramakrishna Sharma <arunagi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste,

Thank you Sri Bhatt for posting the facsimiles. I myself had gone searching for Sayana's Bhashya on Rigveda or Venkata Madhava's Rigartha Pradipika to ascertain what the purvacharya's have deduced the meaning of 'dadarsha'.

Nevertheless, the word Dadarsha in the context clearly means "to see", but not the "lipi" as proposed by Sri Jagannadha but, to see as in Mantra Darshana - to see beyond the mundane. This sukta is in a way elucidating the importance of "Knowing" the meanings of the mantras recited. Meaning here is far more than the Bhashyas or other commentaries. Bhashyas/commentaries are "Di~N mAtramiha dRzyate". Lipi is obviously out of context here.

As far as Prakriti and Vikriti pathas goes, it is grossly overstated and incorrect to state that a writing system would have had to be in place for their composition. The very sooktam mentioned above is a testimony, for a person who has "seen" the mantra needs no external "implement", so to say, to know it's nuances or to correctly infer the order of the padas, upasarga etc. And it is in consensus that Padapathas and the Prakriti-Vikriti pathas were composed by Rishis and not mere mortals. 

And as for the words Devanagari and Nagari being used interchangably, it is technically incorrect, and is exclusively confined to Tamil Nadu and parts of Kerala. However, in present times, I have seen even greater blunders -- people is almost every nook and corner of this country, a certain section, to be precise, use "Sanskrit" in place of Devanagari. For example - "Please bring the Stotra book printed in Sanskrit as the Telugu book is damaged." and so on and so forth. This is not just the case with "ordinary" people but also with quite a few scholars, whether wittingly or otherwise. But this is a different dialogue altogether.

bhavadIya

R. Sivaramakrishna Sharma.

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[Shrivathsa B]

hariH OM,

   My R^igveda AchArya who is a ghanapAThi learnt ghanapATha in the traditional way and he learn't it without a book. As far as I know, there aren't any ghanapATha books available in print. I don't know if any exists in manuscript form.

svasti,
             JAYA BHAVAANII BHAARATII,
                                                              shrivathsa.

2012/9/17 Jagannatha s <jgra...@gmail.com>

[Jagannatha s]

you don't feel visualizing any script when you recite

 

Did I say about listening or reciting of Vikrtipaatha ?

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 8:05 PM, Shambhu <bhaa...@yahoo.com> wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX11bBpuKlU&feature=related - this video clip of the brain activities of a listener (with his eyes closed) of saamaveda recitation claims that the listener's visual cortex lights up even with the eyes closed - na pashyan pashyati not through mere intellectualizing, but really "sees" as far as his brain activities go. If you are a practicing Vaidika, you may verify that you don't feel visualizing any script when you recite - words simply seem to flow from memory with little effort. This is true for any recitation from memory, such as a poem. The absence of script in the mental eye is more acute greater is the practice, esp. while reciting the more complex vikr`ti paata-s.

A resolution we may reconcile with is that darshana and shruti alluded to in Rik 10-71-4 are yogic samaadhi experiences, while seeing and hearing are in the jaagrat state of the creature.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/samskrita/-/LRruJP4i62YJ.