Fw: [Samskrita] Re: Fw: Greek Origin of astrology
murthy
----- Original Message -----From: P.K.RamakrishnanSent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 3:52 PMSubject: [Samskrita] Re: Fw: Greek Origin of astrology--Sri Srinivasan is arguing on words which are not relevant to the point.Mlecchah - Generally a non-aryanगोमाम्सखादको यस्तुविरूद्धं बहु भाषते /सर्वाचारविहीनश्चम्लेच्छ इत्यभिधीयते //Apte's dictionary saysयवन means Greek.म्लेच्छा हि यवना: means. The Greeks verily are uncivilized.तेषु सम्यक् शास्त्रं इदं स्थितम् = In them this knowledge (astrology) is well established.ऋषिवत् ते०पि पूज्यन्ते - Even then they are honored like Rishis.किं पुनः = what thenदैव-वित् द्विज: = if a Brahmin knows astrology.You have interpreted this to mean that the Greeks learnt this from the Indians.This is called kutarkam.I will not post anything more on this topic..
From: Venugopal Sreenivasan <vsv...@gmail.com>
To: sams...@googlegroups.com
Cc: "4bra...@yahoogroups.com" <4bra...@yahoogroups.com>; iyer123 <iye...@yahoogroups.com>; P.K.Ramakrishnan <peek...@yahoo.com>; Vijayaraghavan MB <prabha...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 16 January 2013 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Greek Origin of astrology
My mail was about your arguments on the Greek origin of astrology. You've not answered it. I'd listed out my arguments clearly. You've not answered any of them. If you think considering Jyothisham as Vendangam is not correct. Alright, agreed. And we can even discuss that separately. I know very well the difference of astrology and astronomy. And all your silly arguments like Joshi becoming Jyothishi etc can be discussed at a later time. There was no issue about any of these things. The main issue was quite different which you have not addressed. You're just beating about the bush.
On Wednesday, 16 January 2013 11:44:32 UTC+5:30, P.K.Ramakrishnan wrote:Forwarded.----- Forwarded Message -----
From: P.K.Ramakrishnan <peek...@yahoo.com>
To: Venugopal Sreenivasan <vsv...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 16 January 2013 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: Greek Origin of astrology
Thanks very much for your detailed explanation. Your statement that jyotishamis a vedangam is misinterpreted by you and some others. Jyotisham hererefers to the science luminary bodies which is astronomy and not astrology.The sanskrit word for astrology is daivam. An astrologer is called Daivajnah.Joshi has come Jyotishi who is not an astrologer. In recent times the titleJoshi is being used mistakenly to mean an astrologer.Varahamihira himself has used the word Daivavit to mean an astrologer.Daivam means fate, luck.destiny, fortune. These are predicted on the basisof stars and planets. This is astrology and different from astronomy.If you are not convinced God alone can help you.
From: Venugopal Sreenivasan <vsv...@gmail.com>
To: peek...@yahoo.com
Sent: Wednesday, 16 January 2013 10:26 AM
Subject: Greek Origin of astrology
Dear Mr. PK Ramakrishnan,
I would like to state that you've failed miserably in proving the Greek Origin of astrology. All the simple arguments that you've raised do not prove anything. If you have any more solid supporting evidence to prove your argument, kindly present them.I would also like you to look at these points:1. The Sanskrit word Mleccha does not always mean "uncivilized". It can be non-Aryan, barbarian, out cast of a race, ignorant of Sanskrit, foreigner and so on. The very sloka disproves your statement. म्लेच्छा हि यवनास्तेषुसम्यग् शास्त्रमिदं स्थितम् This clearly shows that the sastra under reference is purely Indian and the Varahamihira is saying that even when Yavana is a foreigner this sastra (means the sastra that we are handling) is well established in him. He is praising a foreigner for knowing an Indian science so well.2. Many Yavana Acharyas might have been here at that time. You may note that Yavana Acharyas wrote texts in Sanskrit only and not in Greek. That also shows that they were here and learnt Sanskrit. On the other hand we have no proof for any of our Acharyas learning Greek. The comments ऋषिवत् only shows the respect Varahamihira had towards the foreigner who mastered the science.3. क्रिय-तावुरु-जितुम-कुळीर-लेय-पार्थोन-जूक-कोर्प्याख्या: /
तौक्षिक-आकोकेरो
हृद्रोगश्चन्त्यभं चेत्थम् / May be these are Greek terms. Does it prove anything other than the presence of Greek Acharyas here. They might have contributed so many things. And the terms they used may have been assimilated by us. Also Varahamihira is giving these terms as those terms which means Rasis from Mesha. Nowhere in Hora he has replaced the entire terms Mesha etc with Kriya etc. He has presented a few words which were commonly used by Yavana Acharyas who were here at that time.4. Your claim of "Kendra - now accepted as a Sanskrit word" needs a little research. I'll come to that later.5. होरेत्यहोरात्रविकल्पमेकेवान्छन्ति पूर्वापरवर्णलोपात् /
I don't see where Varahamihira wonders here as you claim. It is only a statement that the word Hora is derived from the word "Ahoratram" by removing the preceding and succeeding alphabets. As you said he did not say "IT COULD BE AHORATRA WITH THE DISAPPEARANCE OF THE FIRST AND LAST LETTERS". Where did you get that "could be" in this sloka?Since Jyothisham is Vedangam and the period of Vedas are generally fixed you will be left with the herculean task of proving that Greeks were well up with advanced astrology 'sufficiently before' that time.
I would request you to make an in-depth study and present your further arguments so that it will be useful to all.regardsVenugopal Sreenivasan
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Vimala Sarma
"We have quite an extent of literature, traditionally claimed to have written much before Varaha Mihira;" Can you please give a date for the work of Varaha Mihira? Otherwise it is not possible to say what was written by the Greeks.
Thank you
Vimala
Dr Vimala Sarma
My new e-mail is sarma...@gmail.com
From: sams...@googlegroups.com [mailto:sams...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Samba Siva Rao Kolusu
Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013 6:49 AM
To: sams...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Fw: [Samskrita] Re: Fw: Greek Origin of astrology
Let me first apologize for resurrecting an old thread; but i thought i have a valid reference to bring to your notice...
We do have references to "Adhika Maasam" in Rug Vedham; which implies that the Rug Vedhic people have known not only the lunar calendar but also the solar calendar (the "adhika maasam" is attributed to the sum of difference between solar year and lunar year for a period of three years, which will then be clubbed to form an additional month in the third year) and they knew very well how to balance between those two calendar systems. Of course, i could not find (yet) any direct reference to sidereal year though (a reference to sidereal year or raashis in Vedhas would settle for ever the dispute of indigenous development of this art/skill/science).
We have quite an extent of literature, traditionally claimed to have written much before Varaha Mihira; by Parashara, Jaimini, Bhrgu, etc. I don't think that one need to be reminded that Parashara is the father of Vyasa, who wrote Mahabharatham, and is traditionally said to have lived some 5000 years ago.
Further, his contemporary Kalidhasa wrote a couple of books on the same subject.
One may need to rethink if "Paulisa Sidhdhantham" means "Treatise of Paul or Pouloma" since we do have rushi named Pouloma. Similarly, "Romaka Sidhdhantham" -- should we treat it as "Doctrine of Romans" of "Treatise of Romaka muni"? (we do have rushi named Romaka during the Ramayana period. Likewise, "Yavana jaathaka" should be "Treatise by Yavanaachaarya" or the "Doctrine of Yavanaas"?
Those who talk about the Greek origins of astrology should quote the writings of Greek scholars before Varaha Mihira time. And how many books did they write and how many are survived?
It would also be interesting to know if Greeks had knowledge of astronomy during that time, and if they used the same names as we used for nine planets of the solar system. Any Greek writings on astronomy before the period of Varahamihira? Since both astrology and astronomy uses the same names for planets, these findings would serve a great clue to find if the Greeks knew the nine planets and if they did, then if they called those by the same names as we use. Indian writings on astronomy before the period of Varahamihira are well known and i guess need not be quoted.
I am not of the one who says everything originated in India; but this is a case that has very tough contention to accept who the originator was; perhaps the subject evolved parallel and both co-operated each other to reach higher levels of achievement, we do not know as of now. We need a real, fact-based analysis rather than partial references that cannot go back beyond the colonial period.
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On Thursday, 17 January 2013 19:12:04 UTC+5:30, murthy wrote:
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