Re: satyaṃ śivaṃ sundaram

[Brian Ruppenthal]

Friends,

I am looking for an ancient source for the description of Divinity as satyaṃ śivaṃ sundaram. I have looked for it in the Ṛgveda without, so far, any luck.  My next guess would be the Upaniśad-s.  But which one or ones?  

Would any of the learned members know of an ancient text showing this phrase? 

Thanks in advance,

Brian 

[ajit Gargeshwari]

Hi
My  guess would be  the phrase "satyaṃ śivaṃ sundaram" is just an expression ( different interpretation and analysis can be given on the phrase). I could not find this sentence or phrase in any of the principal upanishads or in Upanishad Vakya Kosha of Jacob Or Vedic Index of Macdonell and Keith.
Satyam Gyanam anantam Bramha  can be found in the Taittiriya Upanishad and BrahadaAranyaka Upanishads.

The phrase I think became famous due to the Famous Hindi movie which has the same title



Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari

2011/10/2 Brian Ruppenthal <b.rupp...@gmail.com>

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[Eddie Hadley]

Brian,

 

Is this what you are looking for?

 

    Rājasthānī Granthāgāra, 1990 - Rajasthani poetry - 63 pages

 

If so, see:

 

    http://books.google.com/books/about/Satya%E1%B9%83_%C5%9Biva%E1%B9%83_sundaram.html?id=v7ENAAAAIAAJ

 

then you can follow it up from there.

 

 

Eddie

 

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[Nityanand Misra]

The phrase was used at least several centuries before the movie. There is a commentary on Bhaktamal (composed by Nabhadas between 1583 and 1639) titled Bhaktirasbodhini composed by Priyadas in 1712. In the gloss on the Chappaya verse on Tulsidas, who Nabhadas calls the Sumeru of the Bhaktamal, occurs a record of a miracle attributed to Tulsidas when Brahmins of Varanasi tested the worth of Ramcharitmanas by placing it under the Vedas and other Sanskrit scriptures in the sanctum sanctorum of the Kashi Vishvanath Temple in Varanasi. The doors were locked, and when opened in the morning, the Brahmins found the words satyaṃ śivaṃ sundaram inscribed in the manuscript. So the phrase was in use before 1712 AD is what we can say.

Refer

• Lamb, Ramdas (July 2002). Rapt in the Name: The Ramnamis, Ramnam, and Untouchable Religion in Central India. Albany, New York, United States of America: State University of New York Press, p. 39. ISBN 0791453855, 9780791453858.
• Lutgendorf, Philip (July 23, 1991). The Life of a Text: Performing the 'Ramcaritmanas' of Tulsidas. Berkeley, California, United States of America: University of California Press, pp. 9–10. ISBN 9780520066908.
• Publisher, Gita Press (2007) (in Hindi). श्रीरामचरितमानस मूल गुटका (विशिष्ट संस्करण) [Śrīrāmacaritamānasa Original Booklet (Special Edition)] (9th ed.). Gorakhpur, Uttar Pradesh, India: Gita Press, pp. 29–32. ISBN 8129310902. 1544.

--
Nityānanda Miśra
http://nmisra.googlepages.com

|| आत्मा तत्त्वमसि श्वेतकेतो ||
(Thou art from/for/of/in That Ātman, O Śvetaketu)
     - Ṛṣi Uddālaka to his son, Chāndogyopaniṣad 6.8.7, The Sāma Veda

[Vimala Sarma]

Brian Mahodaya

I think this is a modern phrase (20^th century?).  The early vedic texts do not mention Shiva but the  temperamental minor deity, Rudra (crier or howler) who was associated with storms and winds (he is father of the Maruts), whose fierce and destructive force had to be appeased.  By the time the Ramayana was written (circa 500 BCE onwards) Shiva was already a fully-fledged all-powerful deity, and Rudra is supplanted.  Ravana is said to be a great bhakti and of course there is the famous bow of Shiva which Rama lifted and strung to win Sita.  Kashmiri Shaivism was flourishing in the north at the time of Kalidasa (500 CE), and sect pre-dates the Vaishnava sect.   The later epic Mahabharata mentions a number of Shiva stories – including Arjuna’s encounter with the God whom he mistakes for a hunter in this quest for Shiva’s weapon .  This text has embedded in it the Gita which makes Krishna the supreme deity.

 

This brief synopsis may be simplistic, but it is historically accurate.  The traditionalists in the group may want to add their perspectives.

Vimala

--

[hnbhat B.R.]

Here is anothe anecdot relating it to the work Ramacarit Manas:

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=114607135241974&topic=230

I remember a film named सत्यं शिवं सुन्दरम् (1978) and the song with the same title lyrics by Pt. Narendra Sharma, sung by Lataji is still in my memory. But I too don't remember any such phrase in Vedic Literature.

But I can't say I can't find it at all as I ever remember the advice of Patanjali, महान् खलु शब्दस्य विषयः .... एतावन्तं शब्दराशिमननुनिशम्य साहासमेतत् अप्रयुक्तमेतत् इति।

All we can do is to browse through Vedic Concordance of Blookfield, and Upanishat concordance and Upanishad VakyaMahakosha (both are different) available with us.

--
Dr. Hari Narayana Bhat B.R. M.A., Ph.D.,
Research Scholar,

Ecole française d'Extrême-OrientCentre de Pondichéry

16 & 19, Rue Dumas

Pondichéry - 605 001

[Viswanath B]

The early vedic texts do not mention Shiva but the  temperamental minor deity, Rudra (crier or howler)

This is not true, especially since the panchakshari is right in the middle of Krishna Yajurveda. I am not sure how you thought so. Infact if you read through the rudradhyaya, you will find that shiva is not a minor diety.

I also think there is a definition of rudra, as the one who causes the effect (crying etc), as opposed to one who cries. I don't have this correctly, but it goes like  rudrAyatIti rudraH. Learned members can correct me.

Viswanath

2011/10/3 Vimala Sarma <vsa...@bigpond.com>

[ajit Gargeshwari]

Dear Dr, Bhat

All we can do is to browse through Vedic Concordance of Blookfield, and Upanishat concordance and Upanishad VakyaMahakosha (both are different) available with us.

A Vedic concordance by Maurice Bloomfield right, or is there another concordance by Blookfield.

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari

2011/10/3 hnbhat B.R. <hnbh...@gmail.com>

[Vidya R]

Namaste Smt. Vimala!

The request is for resolution of "satyaṃ śivaṃ sundaram".  Why would one jump from this question to "...Shiva but the  temperamental minor deity,"  Where do the words 'shiva' occur?  What are the meanings for that word?  "shivaaste panthAnaH santu" occurs in shAkuntalam.  Does one interpret it as "may the temperamental and minor deity accompany you on your way"?

Quoting "Rudra (crier or howler)" only takes the discussion further away from the original question.

In response to Shri Brian:

"I am looking for an ancient source for the description of Divinity as satyaṃ śivaṃ sundaram. "  Can you please tell us where you found this description of Divinity?  It might help in responses being more directed towards giving you an answer you are looking for.

Respectful of True Knowledge,

Vidya

---

From: Vimala Sarma <vsa...@bigpond.com>
To: sams...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2011 8:31 PM
Subject: RE: [Samskrita] Re: satyaṃ śivaṃ sundaram

[hnbhat B.R.]

2011/10/3 ajit Gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com>

Dear Dr, Bhat

All we can do is to browse through Vedic Concordance of Blookfield, and Upanishat concordance and Upanishad VakyaMahakosha (both are different) available with us.

A Vedic concordance by Maurice Bloomfield right, or is there another concordance by Blookfield.

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari

I am sorry for the typo eror and thanks for notifying it.

 

[hnbhat B.R.]

I am sorry for the typo eror and thanks for notifying it.

Again I apologize for the new error crept in my previous message.

OK. 

[Vimala Sarma]

Please friends, please read again.  I did not say Shiva is a minor deity but I did say Rudra in early Vedic literature was!

Vimala

[Vimala Sarma]

Namaste Vidya

I am afraid you have misunderstood me.  How do you get the interpretation “may the temperamental and minor deity accompany you on your way"? in Kalidasa’s Sakuntala from my post?

What I said was:

By the time the Ramayana was written (circa 500 BCE onwards) Shiva was already a fully-fledged all-powerful deity, and Rudra is supplanted.  Please see my post again.

Vimala

 

From: sams...@googlegroups.com [mailto:sams...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Vidya R

Sent: Monday, 3 October 2011 7:35 PM
To: sams...@googlegroups.com

[hnbhat B.R.]

2011/10/3 Viswanath B <vegav...@gmail.com>

The early vedic texts do not mention Shiva but the  temperamental minor deity, Rudra (crier or howler)

This is not true, especially since the panchakshari is right in the middle of Krishna Yajurveda. I am not sure how you thought so. Infact if you read through the rudradhyaya, you will find that shiva is not a minor diety.

I also think there is a definition of rudra, as the one who causes the effect (crying etc), as opposed to one who cries. I don't have this correctly, but it goes like  rudrAyatIti rudraH. Learned members can correct me.

Viswanath

Dear Vishwanath,

Please do not deviate from the main focus of the question. If you have anything to say, please provide reference and not mere guessing.

Can you show पञ्चाक्षरमन्त्र is directly taken from कृष्णयजुर्वेद with precise reference to the location? Anyhow you can start a new thread if you have the reference and ask the opinion of others if you want.

It is not the question on the history of the word शिव, but the expression as such "सत्यं शिवं सुन्दरम्" as Brian seemed to explore. Individually, all the three words can be traced back to Earliest literatures, as all are Sanskrit words and having different meanings for each. All the three used as adjectives also and why to personalize it to divine characters? When you deviate from the focus of the thread, better to start a new thread with a new subject line than dragging over the same in diverse directions.

I agree with Vidya in that matter. Hope this would add to the design of the forum topics also a good look and interesting to read newer topics.

 

[Arvind_Kolhatkar]

Dear Group,

I think we are straying away from the topic in hand. The original
query was 'Would any of the learned members know of an ancient text
showing this
phrase?', the phrase being the well-known words 'satyam shivam
sundaram.

There was the well-known film of that name made in 1978 and a song
which is still heard, especially in public celebrations of semi-
religious nature like the Ganeshchaturthi. However, The phrase is
certainly far older. I do not think that Bollywood, which otherwise
is quite innocent of Sanskrit, would have selected this phrase as the
name of a movie had it not been already quite well-known. An attempt
to trace the origin of this phrase is certainly worth an attempt.

A partial answer has been given by Nityananda Misra by tracing its
use back to 1712. Can we take it back further and trace the first
time it was used?

Arvind Kolhatkar, Toronto, October 03, 2011.

[Swaroop Sharma]

Adi Shankara uses satyam shivam sundaram in kathopanishad commentary.
One upanishad which is not among the ten principle also refers it. I will find that at the earliest :-)

Sent on my SAMSUNG GALAXY from VODAFONE :-)

[Viswanath B]

Dear shri Bhat,

My apologies since it seems that I was wrong and could have been more clear.

I was merely responding to Mm, Vimala's assertion that Shiva doesn't find place in early vedic literature. I knew that shiva is revered in Taittiriya Samhita, 4th kanda, 5th prasna, 17th panasa. (I wasn't guessing for sure). So I thought I could mention this.  I could have avoided the word panchakshari.

I also got confused with the minor diety thing. That was completely my mistake.

Viswanath

2011/10/3 hnbhat B.R. <hnbh...@gmail.com>

[hnbhat B.R.]

2011/10/4 Viswanath B <vegav...@gmail.com>

Dear shri Bhat,

My apologies since it seems that I was wrong and could have been more clear.

I was merely responding to Mm, Vimala's assertion that Shiva doesn't find place in early vedic literature. I knew that shiva is revered in Taittiriya Samhita, 4th kanda, 5th prasna, 17th panasa. (I wasn't guessing for sure). So I thought I could mention this.  I could have avoided the word panchakshari.

I also got confused with the minor diety thing. That was completely my mistake.

Viswanath

Dear Friend,

Any quotation naming रुद्र as शिव would help to understand the hymn precisely, than referring to location. Did you mean पञ्चाक्षरी mantra is to be found in the above location or a praise you guess dedicated to शिव is to be found there? If you are sure, you can quote the lines here in praise of शिव in the location.

Mm. Vimala just mentioned रुद्र was a minor diety in Rigveda and never referred to Yajurveda or शिव as you wrongly got confused. Even for रुद्र etc. synonyms they need not necessarily denote the deity शिव or रुद्र unless through the media of पुराण-s and शाक्त, शैव cults. For that matter, the word शिव itself occurs in Rigveda itself many times, but not in any case it has been commented as related to a deity as depicted in पुराण-s and the sectarian cults.

Sorry I am afraid I am deviating out of the focus point of the thread. But for certainty, the exact expression in question सत्यं शिवं सुन्दरम् could not be traced to any उपनिषत् in both the Upanishadic Concordance (English and Sanskrit) and also not in the Vedic Concordance of Bloomfield.

 •satyam enam anu vishve madanti # RV.4.17.5c.

•satyaM paraM paraM satyam # TA.10.62.1; MahaanU.21.2.

•satyaM puurvair (KS. °vebhir) RRiShibhiH saMvidaanaH (KS. °bhish caakLLipaanaH; ApÇ. °bhish caakupaanaH) # MS.2.7.16c: 100.15; KS.39.3c; ApÇ.16.26.6c,12c.

•satyaM prapadye # TB.3.5.1.1; ApÇ.24.11.2.

•satyaM bRRihad RRitam ugraM diikShaa tapaH # AVÇ.12.1.1a; MS.4.14.11a: 233.8. P: satyaM bRRihat Vait.12.6; Kaush.8.23; 24.24; 98.3. Designated as bhaumam (sc. suuktam) Kaush.38.12,16; BRRihPDh.9.59.

•satyaM braviimi vadha it sa tasya # RV.10.117.6b; TB.2.8.8.3b.

•satyaM brahma # ÇB.10.6.3.1.

•satyaM ma aatmaa # TB.3.7.7.9; ApÇ.10.3.8.

•satyaM me gRRihapatiH # JB.2.66. See satyaM gRRiha°.

The above is all with quarters beginning with the word satyaM found in the concordance. If any other precise occurrences in the same sequence, to be looked for and will take long time, please come up with.

[Viswanath B]

Dear shri Bhat,

I would limit my response to just the reference.

The whole of  the 5th prasna i mentioned below is called rudradhyaya, also called namaka prasna, also called namakam, a daily mandated recital for many.

The 17th panasa inside it contains the following (i couldn't add the swara marks, ) I've highlighted the relevant portion.

नम श्शम्भवॆच मयॊभवॆच नम श्शङ्करायच मयस्करायच नम श्शिवायच शिवतरायच

I didn't quote this, since in my opinion, its a popular knowledge of the presence of the highlighted portion in Taittiria Samhita. My mistake.

Viswanath

2011/10/4 hnbhat B.R. <hnbh...@gmail.com>

--

[hnbhat B.R.]

2011/10/4 Viswanath B <vegav...@gmail.com>

Dear shri Bhat,

I would limit my response to just the reference.

The whole of  the 5th prasna i mentioned below is called rudradhyaya, also called namaka prasna, also called namakam, a daily mandated recital for many.

The 17th panasa inside it contains the following (i couldn't add the swara marks, ) I've highlighted the relevant portion.

नम श्शम्भवॆच मयॊभवॆच नम श्शङ्करायच मयस्करायच नम श्शिवायच शिवतरायच

I didn't quote this, since in my opinion, its a popular knowledge of the presence of the highlighted portion in Taittiria Samhita. My mistake.

Viswanath

2011/10/4 hnbhat B.R. <hnbh...@gmail.com>

By the quotation itself has superlative degree of the adjectives शिव and शिवतर are used as adjectives for शम्भु or रुद्र the main deity of the रुद्राध्याय and doesn't in any way indicate शिव is the deity praised in this portion as it is also among one of the adjectives used in praise of रुद्र. Any comments are welcome and free at the desire and inclination of the devotees. 

 

-- 

[Sunder Hattangadi]

An interesting medieval reference :

 

https://sites.google.com/site/goswamitulsidasji/home

 

Authentic Biography of Tulsidas Ji

 

".......

 

Protests and Magical Events

 

Ramcharitmanas soon gained popularity far and wide, so much so that jealous pandits created a hue and cry in Kashi. They protested that composing Shri Ram Katha in vernacular language inflicted insult on Sanskrit, a language of gods. But truth remains truth. With the aim of testing this new scripture, Ramcharitmanas was put at the top of all scriptures in the temple of Shri Vishvanath ji in Kashi and the door was closed. Next day in the morning, when the temple door was opened, Ramcharitmanas was found lying at the bottom of all scriptures and its first page had the signature of Lord Vishvanath Himself- "सत्यं शिवं सुन्दरं" (Satyam Shivam Sundaram). The incident left everyone dumbstruck. It made everyone accept the fact that if Sanskrit is "devbhasha", then the language of ShriRamcharitmanas is "Mahadevbhasha"! Because despite being a great scholar of Sanskrit himself, Goswamiji chose vernacular language due to Lord Shiva's will and instructions.

 

 

This biography is a work of Jagatguru Ramanandacharya Swami Rambhadracharya ji...."

 

 

 

Regards,

 

sunder 
 

 

 

 

From: Swaroop Sharma <swaroop...@gmail.com>
To: sams...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, October 3, 2011 6:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Samskrita] Re: satyaṃ śivaṃ sundaram

[hnbhat B.R.]

2011/10/4 Sunder Hattangadi <sun...@yahoo.com>

An interesting medieval reference :

 

https://sites.google.com/site/goswamitulsidasji/home

 

Authentic Biography of Tulsidas Ji

 

".......

 

I think it is the same as referred to by Nithyananda Mishra  in his post 3rd message in this thread and also I have already noticed in some other web pages also. It may possibly the Hindi film director chose his name from this anecdote of Ramacarit Manas for his film सत्यं शिवं सुन्दरम् as it was popularized by the biography by the time. Any fresh earlier references are welcome.

[Brian Ruppenthal]

Friends,

Thanks to many on this list who helped in looking for the 'satyaṃ śivaṃ sundaram' phrase in sacred texts.

For my part, I took the suggestion that it would be found in Adi Shankara's Kaṭhopaniṣad-bhāṣyam.  But I could not find it there. However, I have that text in hard-copy only, so my search was by eye and not electronic. Perhaps an electronic search would work better?

I did find this closely-related phrase in the Vedānta-sūtra-s, and therefore also in Shankara's famous Brahma-sūtra-bhāṣyam (third adhyāya, pāda 2, line 15):

सत्यं ज्ञानमनन्तं ब्रह्म 

satyaṃ jñānam anantaṃ brahma

Perhaps others were thinking of this similar phrase, and source?

Again, thanks for all the efforts. And having now gotten so close, maybe someone will stumble on an actual instance of the phrase. 

Brian

2011/10/4 hnbhat B.R. <hnbh...@gmail.com>

[Vimala Sarma]

Brian Mahodaya

The suggestion for looking in Adi Shankara's Kaṭhopaniṣad-bhāṣyam related to a different thread – ie on the antaḥkaraṇa (अन्तःकरण) topic, not on this topic.

Vimala

 

From: sams...@googlegroups.com [mailto:sams...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian Ruppenthal
Sent: Saturday, 8 October 2011 4:34 AM
To: sams...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Samskrita] Re: satyaṃ śivaṃ sundaram

 

Friends,

[Brian Ruppenthal]

Vimala, it is good to hear from you again on this topic. It was Swaroopji who mentioned this connection:

Swaroop Sharma swaroop...@gmail.com to samskrita 
show details Oct 3 (5 days ago)

Adi Shankara uses satyam shivam sundaram in kathopanishad commentary.
One upanishad which is not among the ten principle also refers it. I will find that at the earliest :-)

Sent on my SAMSUNG GALAXY from VODAFONE :-)

2011/10/7 Vimala Sarma <vsa...@bigpond.com>