How to read Sanskrit Dictionary

[Ajit]

Hi
1 How does one read a Sanskrit dictionary? ( I know directions of how
to use a dictionary is given)

2 How does one know the meaning of a given word ( Dictionaries give
meaning of verbal base or stem of a word)
so one needs to know grammar to read a dictionary and needs a
dictionary to understand grammar. how does one go about in these
situations

3 All possible derivatives are not listed

Is there any easy or straight forward way in Sanskrit to use a
dictionary as one can use a standard English dictionary.

Thanks

[Eddie Hadley]

Ajit,

 

    Some formal study of Grammar in ones own language, is an advantage.

Then, as ever, you learn the grammar and vocabulary in parallel, a bit at a time, from the simple level to the advanced.

 

You could do worse than start with A Practical Sanskrit Introductory by Charles Wikner, 1996.

 

"This course of fifteen lessons is intended to lift the English speaking student who

knows nothing of Sanskrit, to the level where he can intelligently apply Monier -

Williams dictionary and the Dhātu-Pāt ha to the study of the scriptures ."

 

It is freely available in various formats, including printable. Just scan for the title.

His wish was that his work be translated into other languages.

 

But there are many good tutorials around, also in English.

 

    Eddie

 

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[ajit Gargeshwari]

hi
Let me give a Sanskrit sentence त्वं किम करोषि ?
In English one Says What are you doing?
If I look into a standard English dictionary I can spot all the 4 words
Where as if i look into a standard Sanskrit dictionary i may not find करोषि  I will find कृ धातु
So the problem a beginner or even and advanced reader when he develops a vocabulary of a few hundred words might find understanding Sanskrit difficult
It is one thing to roughly understand a simple text and yet another ball game if one wants to understand a standard Shastric Sanskrit text.

If a person is given a English text and a Bilingual dictionary one can roughly translate the English book ( I presume the person has a rudimentary concept of Grammar). But it might be difficult to do the same if one is given a Sanskrit Text and a bilingual dictionary.
I wanted to understand how Scholars have got over this problem? So are there standard and logical principals one needs to know apart from a dictionary and Grammar books to understand Sanskrit.? What are the principal a scholar applies to find word meaning while using a dictionary
This is the scenario I had in mind
Thanks
Ajit Gargeshwari

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[hnbhat B.R.]

I think Eddie  has already specific in his reply and needs no more specification.

I am just clarifying some points in your queries:

1  How does one read a Sanskrit dictionary? ( I know directions of how

to use a dictionary is given)

One has to read it as per the Instructions given to read it as any one using it as a Dictionary meant for the specific language. It cannot be compared with the other languages' Dictinary strictly.

2 How does one know the meaning of a given word ( Dictionaries give

meaning of verbal base or stem of a word)
so one needs to know grammar to read a dictionary and needs a
dictionary to understand grammar. how does one go about in these
situations

The purpose of a Dictionary is different from that of a Grammar. Dictionaries are not meant for teaching Language, but only to give a knowledge of the words used in any language. The system of presentation may differ and the grammar will certainly differ for each language. It may not be the same as for Chinese English Dictinary, as Sanskrit English Dictionary or Arabic English Dictionary.  
So Grammar has to be learnt from a Grammar Book and vocabulary should be increased by reading the texts in the language Sanskrit to widen the knowledge acquired from the Grammar Texts. Once you get the outline of the language set up of any language, you can use the Dictionary specifically designed for it and not otherwise learn language and grammar with the Dictionary.

3 All possible derivatives are not listed
 Is there any easy or straight forward way in Sanskrit to use a
dictionary as one can use a standard English dictionary.

It is due to many reasons. First, they expect you to look for the meaning the Dictionaries, of the words you identify in the language, Sanskrit by learning Grammar. This is so because, Sanskrit is an highly inflectional language like any classical Indo European Language.  Secondly English Language is a spoken language and many words are easily recognized by exposure to the language than anything and only in the case of rare words one has to refer to a Dictionary after one has acquired the language. Thirdly, comparatively English has less inflected forms than Sanskrit Language and it would consume considerably large space in printing, without much to gain to understand the meaning. This was the opinion of BoaroH who had compiled an exhaustive Dictionary for Sanskrit as discussed in another thread.

This gist is the compiler of Sanskrit English Dictionaries expected the user to have a knowledge of the language enough to identify the stem through Grammar. This is the obvious reason why all the inflected forms are given. Even then, sample inflected forms are given in Monier William's Dictionary for irregular forms of words nominal stems or verbal forms.

And for your recent questions, the difference between Shastra texts and Literature texts, in using the Dictionary is simple one. Just like one cannot understand a medical text on Surgery or Medicine, with the help of a Standard English Dictionary, one cannot understand the texts of शास्त्र-s which have more than 2 millenium of tradition, with the help of a Standard Dictionary without undergoing training in the relevant discipline. 

That is why scholars never had to meet the problem posed by you. 

Hope others would solve your problem how they solved it if they had met it similarly.

--
Dr. Hari Narayana Bhat B.R. M.A., Ph.D.,
Research Scholar,
Ecole française d'Extrême-OrientCentre de Pondichéry
16 & 19, Rue Dumas
Pondichéry - 605 001

[Arvind_Kolhatkar]

My two-paise worth contribution to this discussion.

<so one needs to know grammar to read a dictionary and needs a
dictionary to understand grammar. how does one go about in these
situations >

This apparent dilemma is created if one tries to use the dictionary to
understand grammar. The dictionary does not explain grammar, it
presumes that you already know some rudiments of grammar. How does
one acquire these? I still believe that the method followed in Indian
schools is the best. It involves some learning by rote but doing that
and seeing it applied in simple sentences soon familiarizes the
student with the rote, which then ceases to appear daunting. Several
textbooks are available to help one through this stage. The best-
known among them, Ramkrishna Gopal Bhandarkar's First and Second Books
of Sanskrit, digitally available in archives.org, can be used by the
new learner. These books contain basic lists of words used and
explained in them, so one does not need MW at this stage.

Once the basic structure of grammar is learnt and a few hundred words
of vocabulary is mastered, one can turn to simple but real texts like
the Panchatantra. At this stage one can turn to any good dictionary,
such as MW, and expand one's horizon in terms of vocabulary. Equipped
with basic grammar, the dictionary will make more sense now. From
here, it is for the learner to decide when he should try reading more
complex but popular texts like NItishataka by Bhartrihari or plays
like Kalidasa's Shaakuntalam.

Philosophical texts and works like the Upanishads will come into the
picture after this.

When I was a student, at the high school stage we were taught the
basic grammar and simple verses and texts. Classical literature was
approached in colleges. The six systems of philosophy, Panini, the
Vedas and similar tough topics were left for the stage of the Master's
degree, only for those who wished to specialize in Sanskrit. All
classical literature is within grasp for anyone who has diligently
studied Sanskrit till the level of the Bachelor's degree.

The process described above stretches over 6 to 7 years because
Sanskrit is but one of the subjects that the learner has to learn.
For another person, who studies only Sanskrit, this process can be
managed with two years.

I realize that the process looks easy for a student in India who is
familiar with hundreds of Sanskrit words through their use in the
student's mother tongue. It will be more difficult for another
student who does not have this initial advantage but it is still
doable! So best of luck....

Arvind Kolhatkar, Toronto, October 31, 2011.

[ajit Gargeshwari]

Thank you Dr Bhat and Eddie for you replies
Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari

On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 11:01 AM, hnbhat B.R. <hnbh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Eddie

[Vimala Sarma]

Dear Ajit Mahodaya

In the English also the dictionary will not give entries for verb conjugations – you will find do but not doing.

A dictionary is a reference book for one who already knows the grammar – it is not a text on grammar.

In Sanskrit the situalion is more complicated because you have also to know phonetic rules for example when s changes to retroflex and the way anusvara is listed in the dictionary order has already been discussed.

I think Arvind – Ji mentioned Bhandarkar grammars – which introduces grammar and vocabulary at the same time and this a good way to start.

Some of the members of this group have very good blog sites too for learning both grammar and vocabulary – like Abhyankar’ s and GGS Murthy’s sites

So are there standard and logical principals one needs to know apart from a dictionary and Grammar books to understand Sanskrit?

The answer is of course yes and there is no simple shortcuts. These grammatical principles, phonology (sound rules or sandhi) and vocabulary and take some time. As pointed out by Bhatt Mahodaya not only does one need grammar and vocabulary, one also has to know usage of a word for the text to make sense of a translation, and appreciating alankaras to really start to enjoy the language.  A dictionary may give contradictory meanings for a single word but usage in a sentence will indicate the correct meaning.  Vedic language is even more difficult and should only attempted after know the grammar of classical Sanskrit.

Vimala

[Eddie Hadley]

Ajit,

 

“Let me give a Sanskrit sentence त्वं किम करोषि ?”

To answer you question.

 

You begin with actual material from the real world. Your example does not make sense.

 

You put the pronoun as the first word, which suggests the vocative, except that the inflection is not in the vocative case.

‘You! what are you doing?        Vocative plus interrogative

 

Are you trying to say ‘What are you doing?’    Interrogative

For that, you would drop the pronoun.

 

Then, there is no such word as ‘kima’.        Is it a typo for किम्

 

Kṛ is a advanced verb, not for beginners.

 

 

In short:

You take real world material.

You start with an experienced tutor, human or otherwise.

And you do the exercises.

Submit the homework for review.

          An experienced tutor will frame his tutoring according to the natural ability his the pupil.

          But that natural ability, needs to be there in the first place.

          And, as the man says. “If you have to ask, you’ll never know”*.

 

    Eddie

 

* To paraphrase Louis Armstrong, Jazz musician.

“If you have to ask what jazz is, you'll never know.”

 

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[ajit Gargeshwari]

Eddie,

The setence is तवं किं करोषि?
Thanks I hope this makes sense now
Thanks Eddie for pointing out the typo ah I am now being truly guided !!!
Regards
Ajit

--

[Hnbhat B.R.]

On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 8:23 AM, ajit Gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com> wrote:

Eddie,

The setence is तवं किं करोषि?
Thanks I hope this makes sense now
Thanks Eddie for pointing out the typo ah I am now being truly guided !!!
Regards
Ajit

Congratulations on having found a best Tutor among the members.

 

[Vidya R]

>>"Then, there is no such word as ‘kima’. " Fine.  If I were a novice, and I see 'किं करणीयं किमकरणीयम्’', I could think that 'kima' is a word, or, following the above,  "त्वं किमकरोषि" is valid, ...

>>"You start with an experienced tutor, human or otherwise. "  - well said, though I am not sure about the 'otherwise' part.

DIY (Do It Yourself) Sanskrit could be a slippery slope.  

Vidya

---

From: Eddie Hadley <Eddie...@Ontology.demon.co.uk>
To: sams...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Eddie Hadley <edd...@Ontology.demon.co.uk>
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 9:04 AM

Subject: Re: [Samskrita] How to read Sanskrit Dictionary

[Vimala Sarma]

Vidya Ji – It is just a typo – it is kim, and the word order is not significant.

Vimala

[ajit Gargeshwari]

Dear Group,

I would like to thank all the members for their valuable input and time spent. My questions have been answered. That is why I find this group very interesting for our members do answers complicated as well simple questions sometimes very elementary in nature such as the ones i asked in this thread

Thanks and Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari

[Vimala Sarma]

Eddie Mahodaya

I hope you don’t mind a slight correction.

tvam is not vocative – it is nominative and its use is optional in the interrogative, so tvam kim karoSi is fine.

Vimala

 

From: sams...@googlegroups.com [mailto:sams...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Eddie Hadley
Sent: Tuesday, 1 November 2011 12:04 AM
To: sams...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Eddie Hadley
Subject: Re: [Samskrita] How to read Sanskrit Dictionary

 

Ajit,

--

[Hnbhat B.R.]

On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 9:46 AM, Vimala Sarma <vsa...@bigpond.com> wrote:

Eddie Mahodaya

I hope you don’t mind a slight correction.

tvam is not vocative – it is nominative and its use is optional in the interrogative, so tvam kim karoSi is fine.

Vimala

Generally the personal pronouns are not used in the vocative. "त्यादादेः सम्बोधनं नास्तीत्युत्सर्गः" "tyadādeḥ sambodhanaṃ nāstīty utsargaḥ" is the general norm by the Indian Grammarian tradition. Rare usages like in Mahabhashya are accepted as irregular cases. "he saḥ" etc. but not regular in usage.

Even if split, त्वम् will take verb असि, make a separate sentence thereby It is you there! and second sentence split with another त्वम् implied by the verb to complete the question What are you doing there? 

[ajit Gargeshwari]

Whatever cents this mail is worth
To add to what Vimalaji has said  here is the complete declension of the word

Singular	Dual	Plural
Nominative	त्वम् (tvám)	युवाम् (yuvām)	यूयम् (yūyám)
Vocative	-	-	-
Accusative	त्वाम् (tvā́m), त्वा (tvā)	युवाम् (yuvām), वाम् (vām)	युष्मान् (yuṣmā́n), वः (vaḥ)
Instrumental	त्वया (tváyā)	युवाभ्याम् (yuvābhyām)	युष्माभिः (yuṣmā́bhiḥ)
Dative	तुभ्य (túbhya), तुभ्यम् (túbhyam), ते (te)	युवाभ्याम् (yuvābhyām), वाम् (vām)	युष्मभ्यम् (yuṣmábhyam), वः (vaḥ)
Ablative	त्वत् (tvát), त्वत्तः (tvattaḥ)	युवाभ्याम् (yuvā́bhyām)	युष्मत् (yuṣmát), युष्मत्तः (yuṣmattaḥ)
Genitive	तव (táva), ते (te)	युवयोः (yuváyoḥ), वाम् (vām)	युष्माकम् (yuṣmā́kam), वः (vaḥ)
Locative	त्वे (tvé), त्वयि (tváyi)	युवयोः (yuváyoḥ)	युष्मे (yuṣmé), युष्मासु (yuṣmāsu)

 This word has no Vocative. It has the same form in all the genders. Has alternate forms in Accusative Dative and Genitive cases.

These sentences mentioned below are grammatically correct

तवं किं करोषि?

अहम पाठं पठामि. 
युवाम किं कुरुथः ?
अवाम पाठं पठावः
यूयं किं कुरुथ?
वयं पाठं पठामः
Regards
Ajit gargeshwari

On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 9:46 AM, Vimala Sarma <vsa...@bigpond.com> wrote:

[Hnbhat B.R.]

These sentences mentioned below are grammatically correct

तवं किं करोषि?

अहम पाठं पठामि. 
युवाम किं कुरुथः ?
अवाम पाठं पठावः
यूयं किं कुरुथ?
वयं पाठं पठामः
Regards
Ajit gargeshwari

The words in red are Grammatically impossible, unless they are typo errors for त्वम्, अहम्, युवाम्, and आवाम्| which are the inflected forms of the pronouns त्वद् and युष्मद्. It is optional to make the external Sandhi in a sentence and if you opt to make the sandhi, you can get the अनुस्वार as in the last two.   

 

Thanks for the declension forms of the pronoun "tva" 

base of the 2nd personal pron.: nom. {tvƒm} acc. {tv…m} instr. {tvƒyA} [ and {tv…} RV. , also in comp. ,  {tv…-datta} , {-dAta} , {-vRdha} &c.] , dat. {t™bhyam} [& {Çbhya} RV. P‚rGž. i , 6 , 2] , abl. {tvƒt} or {tvƒd} [ and {tvat-tas} MBh. &c.] , gen. {tƒva} loc. {tv£} [RV.    .

===========

Ë (fr. {yu} + {sma}) , the actual base of the 2nd pers. pron. in the pl. number (from which all cases except the nom. {yUyƒm} are derived , viz. {yuSm…n} , {yuSm…bhis} , {yuSmƒbhyam} , {yuSmƒt} , {yuSm…kam} , in Ved. also acc. f. {yuSm…s} 

Ë loc. {yuSm£} , and gen. {yuSmAka} 

Ë cf. Gk. $ , fr. $). &&&259368[855 ,3] _ 

=====

Ë (fr. {yu} + {sma}) , the actual base of the 2nd pers. pron. in the pl. number (from which all cases except the nom. {yUyƒm} are derived , viz. {yuSm…n} , {yuSm…bhis} , {yuSmƒbhyam} , {yuSmƒt} , {yuSm…kam} , in Ved. also acc. f. {yuSm…s} 

Ë loc. {yuSm£} , and gen. {yuSmAka} 

Ë cf. Gk. $ , fr. $). &&&259368[855 ,3] _ 

and all are grammatically 100% correct forms. The above is the Grammatical information for the declensions offered by MW. But many are used in Vedic sentences as described by Panini.

-- 

[Eddie Hadley]

Vimala,

 

“I hope you don’t mind a slight correction.

tvam is not vocative – it is nominative and its use is optional in the interrogative, so tvam kim karoSi is fine.

“

 

Thank you Vimala, but no correction is needed.

 

“You put the pronoun as the first word, which suggests the vocative, except that the inflection is not in the vocative case.”

 

    Eddie

 

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[ajit Gargeshwari]

The words are त्वम्, अहम्, युवाम्, and आवाम् i am sorry i have difficulty in typing. Henceforth i will type only in English letters for clarity in future mails. Thanks Dr. Bhat for your detailed responses

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari

[Vimala Sarma]

Word order is irrelevant, and personal pronouns do not have vocative.

Vimala

 

From: sams...@googlegroups.com [mailto:sams...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Eddie Hadley
Sent: Tuesday, 1 November 2011 7:41 PM
To: sams...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Eddie Hadley
Subject: Re: [Samskrita] How to read Sanskrit Dictionary

 

Vimala,

--

[Arvind_Kolhatkar]

Ajit,

You say, < Henceforth i will type only in English letters for clarity
in
future mails. >

This is, in fact, the surest way to generate further confusion.
English (Roman) letters do not adequately reproduce all Devanagari
letters. Unless all of us agree beforehand to follow the same system
of transliteration, disagreements will always arise if you write
Sanskrit as a Romanized text.

The best route is to get down to the task and master typing Sanskrit
in Devanagari. It is not all that difficult. Several softwares are
available that help you in this. Do try and get hold of one of
them...

Arvind Kolhatkar, Toronto, November 01, 2011.

[ajit Gargeshwari]

Sure Arvindji will learn and master. I am slowly getting a hang of Goole transliteration tool.

Thanks for all of your patience
Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari