arya to ayya

[Vasu Srinivasan]

I see that the word "aarya" (as denoting a person, husband etc.) becomes "ayya" in praakruti. 

Isn't this the same as "ayyaa" in Tamil, which is very commonly used. (also in Malayalam and Kannada) ?.. ayyaa is pretty much used in the sense of boss, manager, husband among others in Tamil 

--
Regards,
Vasu Srinivasan
-----------------------------------
vagartham.blogspot.com
vasya10.wordpress.com

[P.K.Ramakrishnan]

The word iyer for the Tamil Brahmins has come from the word arya. First it became arya-r

r being an honourable person.  Then it became iyer. 

Similarly the word ayyamkar has come from aryam-kara.  Ramanuja started converting 

non-aryans into aryans.  This ceremony was called aryam-kara ceremony.

 

-----------------------------------
P.K.Ramakrishnan
http://peekayar.blogspot.com

---

From: Vasu Srinivasan <vas...@gmail.com>
To: sams...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, 6 May 2011 2:42 AM
Subject: [Samskrita] arya to ayya

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[hnbhat B.R.]

Here is the etymology of Arya undergone different phases:

आर्य (ā́rya) m

(primary) an Indo-Aryan, i.e. an Ārya-, a self-designator of the peoples of Ancient India who speak Ārya language (ārya-bhāšā-)

a speaker of the language of the Vedas (opposed to अनार्य (an-ārya), दस्यु (dasyu), दास (dāsa))
an inhabitant of आर्यावर्त (āryā.varta)
a member of the ārya.varna.
one who is favourable to the Ārya- people/cause (RV. etc.)

(secondary) a person having the self-ascribed qualities of a speaker of Ārya language

a respectable, honourable, faithful man
one who is faithful to the religion of his country
a man highly esteemed, a respectable, honourable man (Pañcat., Śak. etc.)
in later times name of the first three castes, compare ārya.varna (opposed to शूद्र (śūdra)) (late RV., AV., VS., MBh., Yājñ., Pañcat. etc.)
an arí-, a master, an owner (L.)
an aryamán, a friend (L.)
a वैश्य (vaiśya) (L.)

(from developments in Buddhist/Pali usage)

Buddha
(Buddhism) a man who has thought on the four chief truths of Buddhism and lives accordingly, a Buddhist priest (Pali अय्यो (ayyo), or अरियो (ariyo))

There are two words आर्य and अर्य cognates. Of these, "अर्यः स्वामिवैश्ययोः" ( ३.१.१०३ अर्यः = स्वामी, वैश्यः); आर्यो ब्राह्मणः; 

This is the distinction between the meaning. Tamil அய்ய can be directly derived from  the Sanskrit अर्यः directly without any transference of meaning. स्वामिन् , who is also derived as one having wealth, land lord in later meaning:  स्वामिन्नैश्वर्ये |( ५. २. १२६) ऐश्वर्य means lordship also. So Ayya is the directly descended from Ayya.

For the usages on Arya, is honorable  address to any respectable persons in general. But it is associated with putra as आर्यपुत्र addressing the husband, i.e. father-in=law's son literally in dramatic language and occasionally epic language. It is the term used by women to call their husbands in dramatic language. I think this much is enough for the time being. Here is the Dravidian Etymology Dictionary entry for the word ayya:

3. 196 (a) Ta. ayyaṉ, aiyaṉ: (page 19)

lord, master, husband, king, guru, priest, teacher, father. Ma. ayyan father, lord; tamayan elder brother. Ko. ayṇ father, father's brother or parallel male cousin, mother's sister's husband. To. in, eyi· (voc. eya·) id. Ka. ayya, aya father, grandfather, master, lord, teacher. Koḍ. ayyë father's brother or parallel male cousin, mother's sister's husband; tammayya·n younger brother (voc.). Tu.ayye priest, minister, teacher, master; tammaiya an affectionate form of

________________________________
4. 196 (a) Ta. ayyaṉ, aiyaṉ: (page 19)

lord, teacher. Koḍ. ayyë father's brother or parallel male cousin, mother's sister's husband; tammayya·n younger brother (voc.). Tu. ayye priest, minister, teacher, master; tammaiya an affectionate form of addressing a younger brother. Te. ayya, aya father. Kol. (SR) ayyā mother's father; ayyāk god. Go. (Koya Su.) ēyāl father. Cf. 920 Ta. aiyam. /? Cf. Skt. ārya-; Pali ayya-. DED(N) 163.

With regards
--
Dr. Hari Narayana Bhat B.R.
EFEO,
PONDICHERRY

[hnbhat B.R.]

Post script to previous message.

अज्ज is the alternatively derived form of Sanskrit आर्य. which is used in Prakrit languages alternatively with अय्य with dialectal differences. 

The changes of meaning अज्ज in different derivations in Dravidian Languages is as follows:

1. 50 Ta. accaṉ: (page 6)

excl. of pity or of wonder. Ma. accan father, lord; acca mother; acci id., Nāyar woman; accō interj. of surprise or pain. Ko. aj ayṇ very old man; aj av very old woman. Ka. acci mother, a Malayāḷa woman; ajja grandfather; ajji grandmother. Koḍ. ajjë grandfather; mutt-ajjë great-grandfather. Tu. ajje grandfather; ajji grandmother. Nk. ājak-jaran grandfather. Manḍ. aji father's mother. Kur. ajjos

With regards

[Vimala Sarma]

Is Iyengar from  Aryamkara?

Vimala

[murthy]

Unless someone comes with a clear reference to some authoratative work where "aaryankara" is used where we would use "Iyengar" today, I would not like to believe in the authenticity of this supposed derivation. Such "derivations" are often creations of fun-loving learned persons with a fertile mind.

Murthy

[hnbhat B.R.]

Dear madam,

It can be possibly a case of double suffixation. 

ayya >> ayya+ar - ayya_ar_kaL >> ayyar(n)_gAr(u)

It is not infrequent in Dravidian languages the use of double suffix.  In this case, it differs between variants of the same suffix developed independently in Telugu and Tamil languages.

I remember to have read a scholarly article by
Late Sri Navalpakkam
Ammini Devanatha Tatacharya, a philologist and a
recipient of
President of India's award for Sanskrit, about the origin
of "Iyengar". 
This word as well as "Iyer" has same
origin in the
Tamil word "Aiyan" meaning a respectable one.
Iyengar is a Telugu
variant of Aiyan (Aiyan + Garu).

The above is an answer in yaahoo.com and in practical purposes, they are distinguished by their cultural affinity and difference of the two groups of Bhrahmins as explained by P Ramakrishnan.  It can be see in this page:

http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/feb2002/0187.html

Here is the viky page distinguishing  both communities by their cultural backgrounds. It is with this "pancasamskAra" which our learned friend Ramakrishnan seems to have relied upon to derive it as arayn + kara - indicating the customary samskAra, which the other group do not have.

Hope this will be of some help in the discussion.

[P.K.Ramakrishnan]

Can some say how the two divisions among iyengars as vadakalai and thenkalai

come into existence?
 

-----------------------------------
P.K.Ramakrishnan
http://peekayar.blogspot.com

---

From: murthy <murt...@gmail.com>
To: sams...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, 6 May, 2011 5:33:20 PM

[hnbhat B.R.]

On Sat, May 7, 2011 at 1:26 PM, P.K.Ramakrishnan <peek...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Can some say how the two divisions among iyengars as vadakalai and thenkalai

come into existence?
 

-----------------------------------
P.K.Ramakrishnan
http://peekayar.blogspot.com

Just I was about to ask the question. Anyhow, you have raised it. I looked for it and got the answer by a Sri Mani Varadarajan:

Historians say that the deep division that you've witnessed is a product of lesser minds a century or two after Manavala Mamuni's death. Certainly, there were differences in emphasis on grace, karma, etc., and surrender (prapatti), but the greatest teachers on either side had no intention of causing a split. In fact Vedanta Desika says in one of his works that "In the tradition of Yatiraja (Ramanuja), there is no division; there is only a small difference in opinion." Similarly, Manavala Mamuni (the main post-Ramanuja acharya for Thengalais, who lived a century after Desika) quotes Desika in his works and refers to him very respectably as "abhiyuktar". I believe this term was used only for respected members of one's own community.

Here is the complete answer for the doctrinal differences: 

http://sriramanujar.tripod.com/tVsv.html

And here is another explanation by one V Venkat Rao:

http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/all94/0082.html

in some more detail. Here is another discussion thread with more details by Tamil Brahmins  forum by highly knowledgeable members:

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/philosophy-traditions/3193-vaishnavism-vadagalai-thengalai.html

According to one view, among Vadagalai, brahmins themselves, there are two groups, accepting Ramanujar as their guru and Ramanurar had both Vadagalai and Thengalai  disciples.

 

Here is our common source vikipedia the related page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thenkalai

Hope this will be enough. More discussions and informations would certainly be found on the net on different pages by different bloggers.

 

-- 

[rahul vedi]

aam aaryavara

ahamapi iti manye |

The sanskrit word aarya became ayya in praakrit (eventually found entry into many indian languages). In paali bhaashaa, it became aajja. 

Derivatives of aajja are found in some north Indian languages.

[hnbhat B.R.]

On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 4:34 PM, rahul vedi <vedi....@gmail.com> wrote:

aam aaryavara

ahamapi iti manye |

The sanskrit word aarya became ayya in praakrit (eventually found entry into many indian languages). In paali bhaashaa, it became aajja. 

Derivatives of aajja are found in some north Indian languages.

I don't think it could be aajja - but most likely in the prakrit dialects it becomes like ayya, ajja with only short a preceding a conjunct (of cognate ones as is usual for Prakrit assimilation) and not long "aa" I could expect, unless there is any special rule in Pali grammar to retain the longer vowel. In other words, the longer vowels could not be followed by any conjunct letters. and even if it requires, one of the conjunct letters will be lost as a rule. कस्स, or कास. and not both conjunct and longer vowel preceding. I do not quote the rule, as I do not know the rule of Pali grammar, but only of Prakrit dialects. Probably Mm. Vimala may shed light on this issue who is working with Pali texts, like MilindapaNha.

With regards

 

[Vinodh Rajan]

//In paali bhaashaa, it became aajja. //

In Pali it is "ariya" with the epenthetic vowel 'i' added for ease of pronunciation, and the initial vowel shortened. 

In the dramatical Prakrit it becomes "ajja".

V

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[Vimala Sarma]

Dear Bhat Mahodaya

In Pali Arya is ariya;

Vimala

 

From: sams...@googlegroups.com [mailto:sams...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of hnbhat B.R.
Sent: Sunday, 8 May 2011 9:23 PM
To: sams...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Samskrita] arya to ayya

 

 

On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 4:34 PM, rahul vedi <vedi....@gmail.com> wrote:

--

[hnbhat B.R.]

Thanks madam for confirming the form I had guessed. In any case, it has shortened its initial long vowel.  like in other Prakrit derivations of the word.  

I too got the correct form as ariya. What this phonetical change is called? It is common to Sanskrit too. Like पृथ्वी, पृथिवी, स्वर्णम्, सुवर्णम्. etc. It is the same with Dravidian languages too directly using the Sanskrit words as sama-samskrita , ariya, as in Tamil. Metathesis is too general term, but I do not remember the term for the precise phonetic change.

[Shreyas P. Munshi]

Respected Vimala-ji,
If you allow mw to add:
During the 10-day Vipassana course at Igatpuri (Maharashtra), Shri Goenka-ji said that one who did not remain steadfast in Dharma (in the Buddhist definition and tradition)was called anarya(Sanskrit)and anariyo in Pali. The Pali anariyo, he said, seems to have cpme down in Hindi as 'anADi'.
...Shreyas

On Mon, 09 May 2011 16:24:16 +0530 wrote
>Dear Bhat MahodayaIn Pali Arya is ariya; VimalaFrom: sams...@googlegroups.com [mailto:sams...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of hnbhat B.R.

Sent: Sunday, 8 May 2011 9:23 PM
To: sams...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [Samskrita] arya to ayyaOn Sun, May 8, 2011 at 4:34 PM, rahul vedi wrote:aam aaryavaraahamapi iti manye |The sanskrit word aarya became ayya in praakrit (eventually found entry into many indian languages). In paali bhaashaa, it became aajja.Derivatives of aajja are found in some north Indian languages.I don't think it could be aajja - but most likely in the prakrit dialects it becomes like ayya, ajja with only short a preceding a conjunct (of cognate ones as is usual for Prakrit assimilation) and not long "aa" I could expect, unless there is any special rule in Pali grammar to retain the longer vowel. In other words, the longer vowels could not be followed by any conjunct letters. and even if it requires, one of the conjunct letters will be lost as a rule. कस्स, or कास. and not both conjunct and longer vowel preceding. I do not quote the rule, as I do not know the rule of Pali grammar, but only of Prakrit dialects. Probably Mm. Vimala may shed light on this issue who is working with Pali texts, like MilindapaNha.With regards--

Dr. Hari Narayana Bhat B.R.
EFEO,
PONDICHERRY--
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[Vimala Sarma]

Dear Bhat Mahodaya

I was composing a response when I was interrupted so you may get a another half-finished version of this e-mail.

 

The rule where a vowel is added to separate conjunct consonants is called svarabhakti or epithenthesis.

 

Ariya is not a social group or a caste but refers to arhants (worthy ones) who have reached an awakened state. Hence ariyas like gentlemen are made, not born.

In the dramas the prAkrit spoken by the noble ladies is mAhArASTrI from south of the Narmada, and the servants in dramas spoke mAgadhI – both these are Middle prAkrits.  All these were spoken at the same time as can be seen in kAlidAsa’s plays, and understood by everyone including non-speakers of the dialects.  pAli is an older form of Prakrit and shows both Eastern and Western features as though scribes who were speakers of the Eastern and Western prAkrits were translating from Snaskrit and then the language became standardised. The language is considered by most people as Mauryan from the East (similar to the dialect on the edicts) spoken in the time of Asoka, and the scriptures are from the stAvIravAdins (theravAdins) which were considered to be widespread in the East at the time of Ashoka.

 

Hope this helps.

Vimala

 

From: sams...@googlegroups.com [mailto:sams...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of hnbhat B.R.
Sent: Monday, 9 May 2011 9:05 PM
To: sams...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Samskrita] arya to ayya

 

Thanks madam for confirming the form I had guessed. In any case, it has shortened its initial long vowel.  like in other Prakrit derivations of the word.  

--

[hnbhat B.R.]

On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 6:00 AM, Vimala Sarma <vsa...@bigpond.com> wrote:

Dear Bhat Mahodaya

I was composing a response when I was interrupted so you may get a another half-finished version of this e-mail.

 

The rule where a vowel is added to separate conjunct consonants is called svarabhakti or epithenthesis.

Thanks for your quick response.

 

 

Ariya is not a social group or a caste but refers to arhants (worthy ones) who have reached an awakened state. Hence ariyas like gentlemen are made, not born.

In the dramas the prAkrit spoken by the noble ladies is mAhArASTrI from south of the Narmada, and the servants in dramas spoke mAgadhI – both these are Middle prAkrits.  All these were spoken at the same time as can be seen in kAlidAsa’s plays, and understood by everyone including non-speakers of the dialects.  pAli is an older form of Prakrit and shows both Eastern and Western features as though scribes who were speakers of the Eastern and Western prAkrits were translating from Snaskrit and then the language became standardised. The language is considered by most people as Mauryan from the East (similar to the dialect on the edicts) spoken in the time of Asoka, and the scriptures are from the stAvIravAdins (theravAdins) which were considered to be widespread in the East at the time of Ashoka.

 

Hope this helps.

Vimala

 

In connection with above, the Magadhi, of Jain religious/philosophical litrature (Ardhamagadhi), that of Dramatic Literature (cognate of Sauraseni and other dialects), the one assigned later a name Pālī used in Buddhist Litrature religous and Jatakakatha, is different in minor details from the above. It assimilated the Vedic forms too in its conjugational system and also from Ardhamāgadhī of Jains. It is distinguished from the dramatic Prākrit languages, in as much as that it assimilates from Classical Sanskrit too in its derived forms. It is considered to be a sister language of Vedic sanskrit also by scholars and certainly earlier than the later dramatic Prakrit dialects. Maharashtri has got its own literature, apart from dramatic Sauraseni. Setubandha is the earliest known Mahakavya, considered as the representative of its genre, by Dandin while defining Mahakavya.

The arihanta is the Prākrit form of arhat, an epithet used to Jain monks as well as Buddha also:

{an}) m. a Buddha who is still a candidate for Nirva1n2a ; (= %{kSapaNaka}) a Jaina ; an Arhat or superior divinity with the Jainas ; the highest rank in the Buddhist hierarchy L.. 

 

The popular ṇamokara mantra of Jains is ṇamo arihantāṇaṃ seems to be used in respects of Tirthankara-s lineage. From Rgvedic usage, the term has undergone many changes in the shades of uses of it according to the theology into which it is adopted.

The words Buddha and Jina are listed as synonyms, while  Shakyamuni Gautama (buddha) is separately listed by Amarasimha. A more synthetic and liberal approach is reflected in this verse:

यं शैवा: समुपासते शिव इति ब्रह्मेति वेदान्तिनो
बौद्धा बुद्ध इति प्रमाणपटव: कर्तेति नैयायिका:।
अर्हन्नित्यथ जैनशासनरता: कर्मेति मीमांसका:
सोऽयं लो विदधातु वांछितफलं त्रैलोक्यनाथो हरि:।।

in spite of Amara treating them as synonyms.