Hardcore Interview for High-Class Instructor - Kelly McCann

[Igor R.]

Intervju Kelly McCannom si lahko ogledate na tejle povezavi:
http://www.acdsbelgium.org/interviews/kelly-mccann-english/
================================================
We all have preconceived ideas about pretty much everything…

Take for example the so-called “American stars”, one would think they
are inevitably capricious, haughty, surrounded by an insuperable wall
of lawyers, advisers and assistants of all sorts. One would think that
obtaining the smallest word from one of them, especially when you
represent an almost confidential website, is an impossible task.

If it’s probably the truth with film or sport industry, luckily, in
the combat instruction field, you’re still able to find a few persons
whose ego is inversely proportional to their fame.

The drummer on the above picture is better known for his very
particular talents with a different kind of “percussions”. Kelly
McCann is the kind of man who know how to remain humble in the
success… Working with him on this interview was a real blast, for me
as well as for my old time friend, Serge “TheBCollector”, who was kind
enough to add his vast knowledge of combatives and American slang to
the mix.

Kelly didn’t try to avoid any of our questions, even the most direct
ones, and always answered with the total frankness and lack of
political correctness which defines him.

So here is an acdsbelgium.org exclusivity: the raw and uncut interview
from the most famous “American Star” of self-protection: Mr. Kelly
McCann.

Rico: Hello Kelly. First of all, I thank you very much for your kind
attention and would like to express my gratitude in the name of our
readers.

Kelly McCann: My pleasure Rico, nice of you to ask.

R: Let’s start from the beginning, what kind of a child were you?

KMC: Ha! That IS the beginning! I was what they called (back in the
60’s) a “hyperactive” kid. Today we know it as ADHD (Attention Deficit
Hyperactivity Disorder). I’ve found it to be beneficial, I can hyper
focus and it results in intensity as long as I work with it. ADHD is
associated with the “T” personality type or “thrill seeking” which
explains a lot. I was a happy kid with a loving family, got into
mischief often and have always been self-driven to extremes.

R: I believe your favourite sports were rugby and especially
motocross. How did you come to combat sports and martial arts?

KMC: Yeah, all forms of off-road motorcycle racing, predominantly
trials, then enduro’s and hare-scrambles, some flat track and ice
racing too. I played 12 years of rugby between college and during my
service in the Marines. I was drawn to combat sports and martial arts
by the intensity of contact and the utility of it. I don’t do well
with formalities or convention so I trained and fought with whoever
and wherever I could which gave me a pretty rich exposure to various
forms.

R: I’ve read in an article that your Dad was himself a close combat
instructor. As time goes by, do you think that it is now relevant when
analyzing your professional career choices?

KMC: My Dad is my best friend. He was always there for me and is a
tough guy mentally and physically – something I admire. He really
didn’t care what I did as long as I did it well. After his service he
became a Civil Engineer. Other than encouraging me in all my pursuits,
he never pushed me in one direction or another.

R: It seems that you decided to follow a military career early in
life. As a practitioner and instructor, what are the qualities brought
to you by the Marine Corps, now and then?

KMC: As an adolescent I came to realize I’d either be in law
enforcement or the military. I looked up to the Marines because of
their unique heritage and reputation so when I was old enough I joined
to see if I measured up.

There are too many admirable qualities found in the Marine culture to
list here but I’d say a few of the most important ones are integrity,
confidence, endurance, courage...and the shared mindset Marines have
of being, “No better friend, no worse enemy.”

Kelly, as a young Marine Officer. R: In the beginning of the 90's, you
left the Marines and created "Personal Defensive Measures", which
later became the famous "Crucible ". What are the main reasons to
choose to be active in the private sector rather than remain in public
service?

KMC: My career was an anomaly. I was fortunate enough to do things
that officers normally don’t have the opportunity to do. As a Special
Missions Officer I personally conducted special operations training
rather than just overseeing it. It’s what I love to do and what I’m
good at.

Unfortunately, many times in the military you are inevitably promoted
out of what you really love to do. As a Major, I was doomed to be
assigned to some staff position and I would have gone crazy in that
kind of structured environment. So I resigned to pursue the work I
find most personally fulfilling.

R: It's a wild guess but I can't go wrong thinking that people speak
to you on a very regular basis about the Paladin Press DVD series
"INSIDE THE CRUCIBLE." These DVD's and your “Guns & Ammo” columns (I
think) brought your name to the general public’s attention and have
profoundly influenced a whole generation of young practitioners
(myself included ).

But it will be quite interesting to find out how they had an impact on
your own life? What did they bring to you – financial security, new
business and personal relationships, the attention of the corporate or
of the organisations in the security private sector?

KMC: I think it was actually the “Personal Security” column in “Guns
and Ammo” and both the “Defensive Pistol” and “Combatives 1, 2, & 3”
VHS tapes that people started responding well to. I did the “Inside
the Crucible” series later. Sure, those products (as well as books,
etc.) result in “brand” recognition by potential users.

R: Brand recognition for sure, but what about the royalties?

KMC: The royalties are a nice annuity but are only a small percentage
of what wholesale price is. Remember, the cost of producing DVD’s,
books, etc. is borne by the publisher. Sure, there’s an investment in
time by the author (DEFINITELY more in writing a book than shooting a
DVD) but it’s the publisher that has to actually create the final
product, package it, advertise, and then fulfil customer orders. They
are burdened with the lion’s share of overhead.

Anybody who is interested in pursuing writing or making instructional
DVD’s should realize there’s no shortage of people who want to do
likewise and that the real value to an author (in this genre) is the
wider audience they achieve to share what they believe in.

Unfortunately too many people won’t write or author DVD’s because
they’re fearful of criticism or feel compelled to try and please
everyone – that’s impossible. Over the years I’ve found if someone is
universally liked and has NO detractors it’s usually because they
haven’t taken a stand on anything. I mean there’s always differing
opinions.

R: Being probably one of the most wanted instructors worldwide, you
could probably stay in the "contractors and operators only" business.
So, what are your reasons to open your business to civilians ?

KMC: I haven’t yet. I’ve been considering it for some time. I made a
deal with myself that if I got 1,000 “real” training inquiries from
the www.kellymccanncombatives.com website I’d go forward with the
concept. I’ve got to admit, it’s very close. That’s a scrubbed number
discounting the folks who drop by just to say, “Hi” or to tell me what
they think about a DVD or the book. If it happens, I’ve got ideas for
a sister company to Crucible that would be dedicated to training
civilians.

R: And what about Crucible, itself?

KMC: Crucible won’t become accessible to civilians because we train
government and military personnel exclusively. It’s a medium size
business with lots of moving parts (i.e. logistics, etc.). In a
business like that, both the vendor and the customer have to be
reliable. When we’re awarded a contract or receive a purchase order
the training WILL take place and the number of students WILL be there
on the dates indicated.

R: Which is not always the case with civilian training?

KMC : The civilian market is significantly different. People bail on
training commitments all the time at the last minute. I’ve discussed
this with some of my contemporaries who train civilians through
seminars and sometimes they’re left holding the bag and can’t even
cover their costs. That’s not a business, and not a great hobby
either!

People that know me know I’m a seriously intense guy when it comes to
training. I don’t do anything half-assed. I wouldn’t deal well with
casual school shoppers or people who come to training and aren’t
willing to train as hard as I believe is essential. I appreciate that
people want to train with me and I don’t want to disappoint serious
practitioners. I just don’t have a good solution at the moment. Maybe
the answer is quarterly training seminars...

I will tell you this – when I reach 1,000 “real” inquiries my website
will change significantly and become very active...

R: You have already one more from my part...

Serge : Is your new business relationship with the preeminent “Black
Belt” magazine a new step into that direction?

KMC : The folks at “Black Belt” are great people. We just wrapped and
shipped the DVD companion set to the book, “Combatives for Street
Survival” (that we shot a year or so ago) and I think anyone who gets
it will be pleased with the production quality and content. I wanted
it to be different than the “Combatives 1, 2 & 3” set so people didn’t
feel it was just repackaged content and I think we achieved that.

The book sold out in 5 months and is in its second edition already!
During all this, the Executive Editor of “Black Belt” Bob Young and I
developed a strong friendship. Bob is a lifelong martial artist,
climber and all around thoughtful and considerate guy. He and I
started down the road of a series of articles and ended up with the
“Mil-Spec” column. It’s fun and fits with their new format. When I’ve
run out of things to say we’ll crash the column.

S: Will you still maintain a relationship with Paladin Press ?

KMC: As for Paladin...I just finished shooting a new DVD with them
this past weekend... something no one will expect and shows training
I’ve never documented through writing or video mediums before. We had
a blast shooting it. I hope people like it. I’ve always found Paladin
to be professional and accommodating. In over 15 years we’ve grown
together, I don’t see any reason to change our relationship.

R: According to you, what are the main differences between instruction
for pros and for civilians?

KMC: Reliability, as I’ve already mentioned.

Then liability, when official users show up to train in order to
develop a personal capability necessary for mission attainment,
they’ll go as hard and as long as it takes to master a skill. If they
suffer an injury they either work past it or drop if they’re unable to
continue and come back when they heal. In the civilian sector you
can’t depend on the same mindset. You may encounter lacklustre
performance or, if there’s an injury, be confronted with a law suit as
a result.

Next is fitness. Military special mission users or other official
types HAVE to meet organizational fitness requirements. They show up
fit, mentally conditioned and ready to rock. With civilians there’s no
telling what they’re made of until they show up or if they’re going to
be able to meet course requirements.

Seriousness. If a guy knows that three weeks from training he’s going
to be facing potentially life threatening circumstances somewhere in
the world, he’s going to train his ass off and not want his time
wasted. During some civilian seminars you have to deal with people who
are recreationalists. Their “training” is more socially oriented than
purpose oriented. They like to talk to other students about all the
seminars, styles, techniques and instructors they’ve had exposure to,
which is fine but not at the expense of other paying student’s who are
there to learn what’s being taught and could give a shit less about
anything else at that moment.

Guess that’s some of the differences.

R: I really loved the first chapters of "Combative for Street
Survival" where you explain the first courses for civilians you gave.
I think that this bring back many enjoyable memories for lot of
us ... Retrospectively do you think that this kind of training is
realistically intended for everyone?

Do you think that everyone is able (or willing) to pay the costs of
such intense training on a physical, psychological and emotional
level? If not, do you think that there is a way for you to open the
doors and provide the general public with a good standard self defense
program ? Or is it an impossible goal to reach – an unfordable quest?

KMC: Well, remember that what I describe in the book was a club. It
wasn’t open to the public. Back in the firehouse days you had to know
someone who vouched for you so “birds of a feather...” the group was
self policing. We have had many people over those years come to
training but after getting banged up never came back. .

R: As far as I know, from personal experience, it’s a constant in
training group like these...

KMC : I said in the book that in my opinion, REAL combatives are best
kept underground. I think there are a relatively small percentage of
people who honestly, love to bang and understand the necessity of
training that hard. When I ran the IPMC (Individual Protective
Measures Course – Civilian, the focus of “Inside the Crucible.”),
there were some pretty stringent screening prerequisites (age
restriction, physician’s letter, psychologist’s letter, local law
enforcement letter, etc.). You wouldn’t have believed the bitching and
whining I got over that!

What’s the alternative? Agree to let someone train who is a criminal?
A nut? Someone who is one pastry away from a stroke or heart attack?
Not mature enough to understand combatives and then cooks off on some
fraternity dipshit at a party seriously injuring them?

C’mon, I can’t do that. I wouldn’t do that.

I think there is a standardized curriculum that could be taught to
civilians in a less intense manner that would improve their personal
safety and security. Most of that content would be focused on
developing their mindset, developing their skill in recognizing pre-
incident indicators and improving their situational awareness.

R: I can’t agree more with you. But physical response, fighting
actually, also has to be considered.

KMC: The problem I’ve run into trying to teach generalists to fight is
that I believe you have to fight in training in order to learn how.
Isn’t that obvious to everyone? After all, you don’t learn to fly a
plane by reading a book or watching someone else fly, at some point
you have to fly the freaking thing yourself. Learning to fight is no
different but a lot of people aren’t comfortable with that.

Chillin' with some "escultas" in Bogota, Colombia R: Based on your
experience having worked and instructed in many countries, is there a
lot of difference in violent attacks and appropriate responses against
them throughout the world?

KMC : Predatorial behaviour always appears the same no matter what
country or culture you’re in. The instruments of violence do differ
(i.e. knife cultures, particular types of edged weapons, prevalence of
firearms, etc.) but what criminal predators initially notice about
potential victims, how they select their victims and the physical
actions they take to “set-up” their attack are all the same.

Far and away the best self-defense technique to master isn’t physical.
Expert situational awareness and heightened sensitivity of pre-
incident indicators are the keys to confrontation avoidance.
Secondarily, I’d say it’s to relieve yourself of the burden of having
to know something’s about to happen before you’ll take action to avoid
a potentially dangerous situation.

R: I fully agree with you, once again, but how does this concept match
the laws about self-defense?

KMC: My experience has been that if you act justly, unless you are in
a completely corrupt country (and these places do exist), your actions
in self defense are easily recognized as such and you’re unlikely to
have any difficulties with local law enforcement. The caveat is that
you’ve got to obey the host nation’s laws.

For example if it’s illegal to carry a knife – DON’T, because if you
use it, you’re going to have to explain why you had it. Carry
something else that at worst, could be considered a “weapon of
opportunity.” For example a flashlight that is convenient to carry but
is of sufficient weight, length and has the structural integrity to
use as a short stick, bludgeon, yawara, Koppo or blackjack. With some
forethought you can always think of something that you can lawfully
carry that may not be a purpose built weapon but will do an adequate
job just the same.

And follow your mother’s advice – “Stay out of trouble!”

R: It appears Europe is not a common destination for you, and that
your presence is or was not often detected here. If you don't mind me
asking, do you now consider Europe for a goal to reach and as a new
business opportunity to prospect? Is it reasonable for Europeans to
believe that they will be able to have an access to your seminars by
flying domestic instead of intercontinental?

KMC: I hate to frustrate you but I just don’t know. By the way, I’ve
been to Brussels and got a great flame tattoo on my left arm by a guy
who had served in the Foreign Legion then drank many cold
Stellas...but that’s a whole other story...!!
R: Next time give me a call, I’ll be glad to pay the first round of
beers.

Serge : And the obvious question following that one is of course this
one: will

Kelly McCann live instruction remain for "Americans only" ? Or can
Europeans realistically and seriously consider it?

KMC: I hope so! I’ve never intended to exclude anyone it’s just that
my focus has been on official users here in the United States. Good
people everywhere need to know how to defend themselves in an
increasingly violent world.

R: Being in the "business" for years, what’s your take on the current
self defense "market?"

KMC: Wow! There’s a loaded question! LOL!

R: As loaded as a G19!

KMC: I think the consumers in the self defense marketplace should be
informed and make smart choices. There are a lot of charlatans out
there claiming this or that. But the truth is, even a layperson should
be able to look at someone who’s overweight, moves like a turtle and
is obviously incapable of taking care of business and arrive at the
right buying decision.

Sometimes the reverse is true and a guy who really does have valuable
information to share is screwed by the marketing types who make
outrageous claims in ad copy and on the packaging. BELIEVE ME – I’ve
been pissed as hell over that kind of shit when marketing personnel
make ridiculous claims on any of my products. It’s professionally
embarrassing. Worse, consumers assume the author is making the
outrageous claims and there’s no way to correct it once released.
Maddening!

There’s a healthy dose of insufferables out there who can’t find a
room big enough for both them and their ego to stand in, but they’re
not fooling anyone except themselves.

I hate the bickering, name calling, forum flaming and bitch-mouthing
bullshit that is so prevalent. Everyone should just shut the fuck up
and train however they want to. You don’t need to validate what you’re
doing by tearing what someone else is doing apart. There’s room for
everyone. If someone’s skill or curriculum doesn’t stack up, they’ll
be found out soon enough. In my opinion when you think you’re the
toughest guy around it just proves you haven’t BEEN around.

Honestly, I don’t bad mouth anyone. I don’t care enough about what
anyone else is doing – besides, everyone’s entitled to their opinion.
I do what I do, other instructors are free to do the same. Anyone who
says their way is the only way obviously doesn’t understand that
everyone moves differently based on their individual attributes and
that necessitates different techniques for different people.

Whew!

R: Whew, indeed...

S: If now, you allow me. Obviously, Bob Kasper has had a great
influence on your professional life thru the Gung-Ho Chuan Association
among other things, and thru his close combat teaching as well.

KMC : Actually, it was the reverse of how your question is stated.
Bob’s professional life was influenced by our involvement together. He
was able to do things and go places he’d not been able to previously
and as a result, changed professions late in life. Bob was a close and
dear friend.

S: Could you tell us a bit more about the GHCA?

KMC: Most people don’t understand what the GHCA was all about. The
GHCA was a loose affiliation of “chapters” basically there was PDM
(Virginia), PCT (New Jersey) and American Combatives (New York). PDM
came into the GHCA last after I read an ad Bob had placed in the back
of “Black Belt” magazine about the GHCA.

S: On a practical level, how did you work together?

KMC: We didn’t share a unified curriculum; we shared a unified mind
set and work ethic. John Kary, Bob Kasper and I all had different
takes on combatives, and that was okay. Twice a year we’d all get
together and demonstrate and train techniques from our particular
chapter. There wasn’t any petty bullshit, there wasn’t any nonsense.
There’s been A LOT of bullshit conjecture circulated by people who
weren’t even there back in the day.

We all influenced each other. Some things that appear in “Combatives
1, 2 & 3” for example were an effort to represent what John Kary was
doing (the wheeling cupped hand strike to the groin for example that
John had picked up from John McSweeney). There are plenty of examples
of the cross-pollination that occurred between chapters.

S: Is it possible for you to describe the presence of Bob Kasper’s
heritage in your teaching and in your knife work?

KMC: I trained and taught a knife curriculum years before I was even
aware of the GHCA, back to the early 80’s in the Marine Corps on
Okinawa. That curriculum is represented in “Kembativ Knife.” It’s what
I teach and believe is suitable even today; strictly utilitarian
without anything extra.

While in the GHCA I deferred to Bob in regard to knife curriculum out
of courtesy and respect for his dedication to knife tactics, just as
he deferred to me in regard to stick and firearms tactics. We both
included some of John Kary’s techniques out of respect for his
dedication to true WWII hand to hand techniques.

John Kary never trained Bob, Bob never trained me and I never trained
either of them. We just coexisted sharing the common bond of banging
hard as hell and collectively digging the combatives way of life, each
influencing each other and each other’s chapter. It was wonderful with
no fucking agendas. It was also a snapshot in time that will never be
captured again.

S : Still today, do you feel the influences of such characters as
Charles Nelson, Bradley Steiner, John Kary or Carl Cestari in the core
training provided by your friend Bob Kasper ? And so, do you feel that
in your teaching as well?

KMC : Sure, as much as people may like to lay claim to originating
something it’s impossible to not have been influenced by people you’ve
known, experiences you’ve had, places you’ve been. No one develops in
a vacuum.

All the guys you mentioned had / have value in things they say,
techniques they believe in, what they profess, etc. It’s like I said
in the book, the more you know, the more you realize how little you
know. When you drop your baggage and consider things reasonably and
objectively you’re bound to learn something – even if what you learn
is that a technique just won’t work for you personally.

With a PSD teammate in Irak S : You know perfectly well that guns are
mostly prohibited in Europe for common people. Do you think that there
are viable self protection programs and self defense techniques that
could realistically avoid the way of the weapon and remain only
unarmed? Or, is it totally unthinkable in our modern world based on
the progress of the delinquent underworld?

KMC : No, but as I said the majority of that material focuses on the
front end of any potential attack, how to see it developing and avoid
it. When weapons are present or even MAY be present, a higher standard
of skill is necessary and even then there are no guarantees you’ll
successfully defend yourself.

There are NEVER any guarantees of success from any technique...ANY.
Attacks are a weird alchemy of chance, risk, luck, skill, speed, will
and perseverance. They’re ALWAYS a gamble of some kind, to think
otherwise is naive.

You’d like to think that at the end of the day, it’s the man not the
technique, who is forged through hard, consistent training that
prevails. Except that’s a fairy tale. It’s a factor to be sure, but
never the sole deciding factor – only one of many. Because of that,
it’s time well spent getting as good at avoiding a fight as it is
learning to fight proficiently.

S : Very often in your documents, you are walking (as a lot of us do)
on the edge of a razor. You underline the necessity to follow the
local laws, but and also, you provide clues about the necessity,
sometimes, to make a step out of these ones in order to remain safe
while the shit hits the fan by choosing some solutions rather than
other ones. How do you practice that?

KMC: Criminals are unrestricted by the law. If the situation is dire,
you are at a decisive disadvantage if you restrict yourself. The law
in most places I’ve been supports the right to self defense. If you’re
confronted with a “this is it” moment, then you have a right to do
whatever is necessary to defend yourself.

There’s always the chance (there’s that word again) that you may have
read the situation wrong, that the attacker wasn’t (or was) going to
do this (or that). You simply can’t know. But if you are conflict
avoidant and STILL find yourself in that moment, you very likely got
it right. Use of force is a personal decision for everyone to make,
under duress at the worst possible time. That doesn’t change the fact
you may have to make that decision with only partial information, and
no one can tell you what’s right or wrong because they won’t be there
with you.

S: Is there a politically correct way to train to react?

KMC : Sure, “RUN!!!” LOL!

S: It is a utopic perspective, then?

KMC: In my hometown yesterday evening, a homeless man sleeping under a
bridge was splashed with gasoline and set on fire by three teenagers.
With people like that in the world, there’s no place for utopia of any
kind.

S : Knowing what you know, if you had to do it all over again, what
would you change in your training, in your teaching, in your choices
about the self protection matter ?

KMC : My Dad was watching us train years ago. During a break I walked
over to him and he said, “Man, you guys have developed all this far
beyond what we used to do.” I said, “Maybe. I sure wish I had this
level of skill when I was younger.” He answered, “I’m not, because
maybe some of the fights you kept getting into would’ve ended
tragically, with you sitting on your ass in jail.”

What he meant, obviously, was that skill in combatives really requires
the commensurate level of judgment.

No, I wouldn’t change anything. I think maturity and skill level
converged at just about the right time for me.

S : It is clear and obvious that you are a vivid spectator of our self
protection world. You read and hear about and probably see lots of
documents (being DVD's or seminars video shots).

KMC: Less so than you may think.

S: What are the (few) names that you won't hesitate to recommend to
someone as self protection teaching sources according your standards?

KMC: I wouldn’t want to offend anyone and NOT include them; I’m not
the burning bush of combatives, LOL! So I’ll approach your question in
a slightly different way:

My Dad told me once, “If you’re standing in front of someone who says
they have something to teach you ask yourself the question, “If I
cooked off on this guy right now, could he handle it?” If you honestly
and objectively answer yourself, “No.” there’s probably no reason to
stick around. If, on the other hand, you smile a little and have to
admit, “I don’t know, it’d sure be a hell of a fight...!” you may want
to hang around a little longer and learn something.”

In today’s internet based world there’s probably not an instructor out
there who doesn’t have some representation online. Jump on the
information highway and search for articles written by an instructor,
write-ups of seminars people have attended that were taught by him or
her, video footage of them moving and make your own educated
evaluation. If what you see, hear and read is engaging, dynamic,
effective and most of all, compels you to want to move like they do
it’s a good bet you won’t be disappointed.

Thanks, Rico and Serge, for thinking well enough of me to ask these
questions.

My best and kind regards.

Kelly McCann.