Fw: "Baba, Jesus And The Self - I See No Difference" - Conversation with Catholic Priest, Father Charles Ogada ...... Radio Sai Bhajan Classroom ..... Bhajan - Madhuvana Sanchari Shyama Murari
Sangram Kondel
Posted on: Mar 16, 2014
"Baba, Jesus And The Self - I See No Difference"
- Conversation with Catholic Priest, Father Charles Ogada
Part 01
Father Charles Ogada is a Catholic Priest from Nigeria, whose deep understanding of Christ's message is in itself a testimony to his life of steadfast quest of the Ultimate. Father Charles who was ordained in 1999, was born in Uturu, Nigeria. He first came to Bhagawan Baba in 2001, a visit that would deepen his commitment to his search and rejuvenate him in his path to self-discovery. Ever since, Father Charles has been a regular visitor to Prasanthi Nilayam and has also worked closely with late Mr. Victor Kanu, for the Sathya Sai Schools in Africa. Father Charles is also a regular contributor to Radio Sai, and his articles have been much appreciated by our readers for their profound thought and spiritual clarity. What we present below is an edited transcript of the conversation recorded by Mr. Ted Henry (TD), for the popular 'Souljourns' series. This interview (which can be seen here) was conducted in the sacred precincts of Prasanthi Nilayam in January 2007. In Ted Henry's words, “In this interview, Father Charles opens his heart to his Christian roots and to his love for the arrival into his life of the lessons, teachings and love of Sai Baba.” |
Early Childhood - A Mystic Beginning
TD: Sairam Father Charles. What kind of a little boy were you?
FC: Swami’s boy!
TD: [Surprised] From the very beginning?
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| Father Charles speaks in the divine Presence during Christmas 2006 |
FC: Yes! Swami Himself surprised me when He revealed this in His Christmas discourse (2006). Remember, He said, “This devotee from Africa (Father Charles) has been devoted to Me since his childhood. He used to love Me intensely from the beginning.” This could explain the reason why I never had a transition of faith in the reality of Swami. Usually for Christians who come to Swami, there is a gradual coming to terms with the reality of Jesus vis-à-vis that of Swami. But that never happened to me. It was for me a flow, like a remembrance that Swami was everything to me.
So I had known Him right from my early days.
When Baba said those words my childhood memories flushed back to me; the most beautiful experiences that I ever had in my life were during that period. I was like being in bliss, right from age 5 to 11. There was this unknown presence that filled me with heavenly sweetness and I would always withdraw and be alone with it. Sometimes, this presence would become so intense that I would lose body consciousness and faint.
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| A native Juju doctor |
At this time, my body would become very hot, so hot that I had to constantly pour water on myself. My parents used to be bewildered and took me to all kinds of hospitals and there were no medical explanation. Finally they took me to native juju doctors who diagnosed me as an “ogbanje” (possessed being). So they did a lot of things to me. But the situation continued.
I remember once when I lost myself and my mom had gone to visit a friend. We lived on a mountain surrounded by trees. Someone ran and told her about this and she was so worried that she started running and before she could climb the hill, she too fainted. Such was her love. So this state continued until I was 11 years old.
TD: So when did you first have the wish to become a Catholic priest?
FC: I could remember an encounter I had with my dad when I was 11. He is a very spiritual person, very serene, and very humble.
By the way, I am born in a Catholic family. One day he called me inside his room and held my hands in his hands and after saying a very beautiful prayer, he spit into my hands and closed it, as a sign of his blessings ... as a sign that he had poured in everything that he is, in me and then he asked me a question, “Would you want to be a priest?” And I said, “No”.
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| Father Charles' mother |
I said No because, had I said Yes, he would have sent me to the seminary. So as I said ‘No’, I went to an ordinary school for my education. When I finished my high school, it was five years training, I did so well. I really had a fantastic result and everyone was very proud of me, including my dad and I was preparing to go and read Medicine in the University.
To be a doctor was my childhood dream. Everyone was very happy and looked up to me and I was the first son in a family of nine children.
TD: How could your father send you to school? It would have been very expensive.
FC: Because he loved me so much he would do anything for me.
A Strange Experience
I then had a strange experience that changed the course of my life. During early childhood, I had formed the habit of withdrawing to myself, to be alone with the “unknown Presence”. I would just withdraw for hours into the forest in solitude and It soaked my being with intoxicating joy.
TD: With eight brothers and sisters, I understand why!
FC: [Laughs] That was a habit. I had just finished high school and written all the exams that would qualify me to study Medicine in the University. Then I was completely relaxed and had ample time to spend in the forest. So one day, I was alone by myself in the thick of the jungle. Suddenly a strange force took over me. It was that presence. My heart started expanding as if my body was getting bigger and bigger. But this time I did not faint. Then I heard a Voice in my heart.
TD: This inner voice?
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| The thick jungles which young Charles would wander off into |
FC: Yes. This Voice filled my heart with so much love. I was dissolving in it. The sound of the voice was truly soundless because it was not something like a physical sound coming from a particular direction. It pervaded my whole being and I could not differentiate myself from the Voice nor from anything. I lost all sense of separation from creation as if the trees, the soil, the sky, were part of my body.
The Voice said to me, "What would you want to do with this life?”
TD: And what did you answer?
FC: Actually the voice also answered, because there was no differential awareness between the Voice and me - “What else Father but to give this life to you?” From that moment, the external world became non-existent to me because there was no inside or outside. Everything was like one continuum of life streaming energy.
When I began to regain normal body consciousness, I was possessed by this obsession to give my life in service to the Father (I call the Voice the 'Father'). My value system changed. The whole world became insipid and my childhood desire to become a medical doctor disappeared. I just wanted to serve and every other thing did not make sense. I could not sleep, I could not eat, I could not do anything. I was totally possessed by that force.
It was a living awareness, which made me feel the hurt inflicted to an ant because I felt the pain in my heart. It was like I was one with everything because I couldn’t stand the suffering of other people.
For example, during this period, it was my habit to attend the Catholic mass every morning. Normally I would wake up very early at about 4 o’ clock to go to the mass, which is about 4 km away from where we live. On the way, I used to meet mad people lying by the roadside in the cold, without clothes. I could not stand this. I would rush back home, get some of my clothes and put on them and give them food. I was not afraid of them and did not think they would harm me.
Life Takes a New Course
TD: How long did it take before you realized you wanted to switch from medicine to becoming a priest?
FC: With the Voice experience everything changed. I started thinking how to give this life to the Father. I felt that the best way to actualise my experience was by joining a religious order. I then sought to become a member of the congregation of the Holy Ghost Fathers and Brothers, a group of men who dedicate their entire life for the service of the poor.
Then I told my dad that I was not going to go to the University again and rather I would give my life in service to God. At first he was very disappointed. Remember, 6 years before he had asked me if I would want to be a priest and I said no. Everyone then looked up to me to become a doctor who is highly respected and influential in the community. In the African tradition also, the first born child is looked up to take care of the whole family.
So my dad advised me to test the authenticity of the Voice. He asked me to finish my studies as a medical doctor in the university and if after this the Voice persists then I would know it is genuine.
TD: Did you do it?
FC: I knew I can’t do it [laughs] because I knew I can’t even stand a second of separation from that Voice.
But, I didn’t want to disappoint my dad because he loved me so much and I loved him also. So, I told the Voice, “Well, it is your job. Go and convince him that you are genuine.” And the Voice did speak to my dad. I was surprised when after some weeks he said to me, “I will not be an obstacle if God is calling you”.
TD: …as a priest?
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| Claude-François Poullart des Places was a French Catholic priest who founded the Holy Ghost Fathers (Congregation of the Holy Ghost) in 1703 at the age of 24 |
FC: Not really as a priest. My desire was not just to be a priest. Rather, I was looking for an environment whereby I could express this yearning to serve, to give my life in service to the Father and I felt that being a religious priest would provide me with that opportunity. Then, I chose to join the religious order of the Holy Ghost Fathers and Brothers.
It is an international religious order of men, who live and work round the world. They are noted for their strict religious discipline with vows of poverty, obedience and chastity. Their primary mission is to serve the poorest of the poor, wherever they may be found. And they can go to any part of the world where the need is calling. They renounce all family attachments and could spend all their lives in a foreign mission.
My dad also objected to this type of strict religious order and implored me to join instead a local diocesan priestly order so that they could at least have the chance to see me from time to time. But I really wanted to give everything to God. I was 28 when I became a priest.
TD: And did you love being a priest?
FC: Sure. But to answer the question better, I love God, or rather God loves me. I am soaked in His love. And that love is the joy of my priesthood. When you are talking about priesthood, you are talking about giving yourself in total surrender to God.
TD: Yeah, so you were a priest from the age 28. You took all these vows, you were working for the poorest of the poor. And as I heard you say so well, when you addressed the thousands of people on the Christmas day in front of Sai Baba, that you never went looking for Sai Baba, Sai Baba found you. How did that happen?
FC: Truly, that is the truth. Sai Baba found me. He was the “unknown” Presence that hovered round me when I was a child. He was the Voice that said to me when I was 17, “What would you want to do with this life?” He was the One that took my hand and directed me to His feet.
When I was in the seminary, truly I was searching for God. At that time, that inner Voice, that communion, that presence left me. And when it left me, I was dead because it was the only thing I valued, it was the only thing that gave meaning to my life, and it was the only reason for my existence. So when it left, that was the darkest night of my life because the world was dead to me and the spiritual life was also dead to me. Like a body severed from its life breath, my soul pined in vain for the source of its joy. I knew I couldn’t survive the ordeal. Actually, I wanted to leave the seminary and I started contemplating on how to get out.
Letting Go of the Earthly Father
TD: You no longer heard that voice?
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FC: Not hearing, when you say 'hearing' it is as if it is a physical sound. It is more like a presence - a presence that fills you and makes you know that you are one with all.
TD: It is unmistakable! Then what did you do?
FC: I wanted to leave because I could not survive. I will give a little example. Imagine you are totally depressed. You can’t even bring yourself to sleep or pull your body out of the bed. Food had no taste and living was as good as dying. You are in a state of complete lethargy. This was just a tenth of my dark night. I was literally dying, caught in the void of total meaninglessness.
Then my dad got sick, very sick. I went home to see him. He was fifty-eight years old then. He was dying of cancer. The pains were very excruciating. He could not stand. He could not sit. He could not lie down. Every posture he took brought pangs of agony.
I could vividly remember that day when I came back from the seminary and went straight to his room, and how our eyes met and tangled in silent drops of tears. Ever since my encounter with the Voice, my journey has been his journey, my search, his very quest. When I was in the Novitiate (a special time of spiritual initiation into the religious order), he used to visit me every month and we used to sit and talk about the Voice and we would invariably start crying.
TD: He must have loved you.
FC: He really loved me. My journey with him in his suffering and death became a new awakening for me. It was like a strong push that pulled me out of my spiritual slumber. I discovered that even though his whole body ached in pain, yet, in his eyes was a 'Eureka'.
He had found something beyond suffering. My Dad’s encounter led him to the limits of the human mind. His intense suffering pulled him to that void of surrender where he was untouched by suffering.
One day, the very day the doctors confirmed that he had cancer, they told me to prepare him for death. Every one of us was very heartbroken. I could not bring myself to break this omen to dad. However, that same evening, he called me and asked me to get a pen and write down what he was going to tell me. There was a twinkling of joy in his eyes. He started by praising God and the splendour of his creation. I could not understand how someone could be aware of the beauty of creation even in a body full of cancerous cells.
He said, “I am on the way to Calvary.” You know what Calvary means, the Christian symbol of the dissolution of the ego on the cross. He asked me to request for Novena mass (nine days Christian religious prayer) for him, asking for God’s strength and courage to reach Calvary. After that he said to me, “I am offering these sufferings for the joy of the world” – “Loka samasta sukino bhavanthu”.
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| Mr. Bernard and Mrs. Bibiana Ogada, Father Charles' parents |
His suffering was an awakening for me.
TD: And you were still in the midst of your own depression.
FC: Well, his suffering swallowed my depression. When one has got a strong toothache, one tends to forget a tiny prick in one’s leg. Isn’t it? His suffering took over my depression as I was totally engrossed in how to make him happy.
TD: So you forgot your own suffering. This was a lesson to you. You said, he was a teacher? It sounds like his biggest lessons to you were at the end of his life?
FC: Yes, the end of his life was not just a lesson but a revelation. Towards the end, our dad’s attitude of surrender in suffering brought him in contact with his inner Self. There was light and joy in his eyes and he was engaged in the constant chanting of God’s names. He taught me the immense power of God’s Name. Three days before his death, he called us to his bedside (my mother, my immediate younger brother and myself) and told us he will leave his body on Wednesday. My mum objected vehemently saying “Dear me, please don’t leave us.” Dad replied. “I am not dying. Where I am going is better for you and when I reach I would say our Father for you.”
Of
course, we did not take him seriously because we did not want to
believe that he was leaving us. On that Wednesday, about 3:45 pm, he
asked me to buy bananas for him. I was amazed because he had stopped
eating anything for many days. It was raining heavily as I ran to the
market to look for bananas. Due to the torrential rain, the market was
virtually empty and thanks to divine providence there was a little girl
with only one bunch of bananas left in her tray. I paid for this bunch
and hurried to the hospital. My dad requested that I peel one of the
bananas. After eating it, he said to me, “It is time”. He called three
of us again by his bedside. He
gave me his hand and instructed me to chant the names of God. We
started reciting the litany of the sacred Names of Jesus. It was while
we were chanting these Holy names of God that he left his body like one
who had fallen asleep.
I did not recognize the significance of the banana until one day when I read a passage in Sathya Sai Speaks. Swami said, “The body is like a banana. To experience the Atma (your true Self), you have to peel it.” Before his death, he said so many things, which he told us to write down. When he was giving me his blessings he advised me not to leave the priesthood and that many will come to God as a result. His death woke me up from the void of my meaninglessness. Above all, I realized that we do not die. What we call death is only the door to a fuller life. Because of his words, I went back to the seminary to continue my search for God. And that was when Swami came to me.
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| Spiritans of the Congregation of Holy Spirit |
Part 02
"I am the One that you have been looking for"
TD: How did Swami come to you in the Catholic Seminary?
FC: I was attending a lecture in a course – Comparative Religion by my professor in theology, Rev. Fr. Raymond Arazu. During his course, he mentioned the name 'Sai Baba'. Now, when I heard that name, it was as if the foundation of heaven shook within me. That name woke something within me. It was like reliving of past memories.
It just woke me up from my slumbering stupour.
TD: Just the name?
FC: Just the name. Then I started to devour. I was like a mad man intoxicated with a new wine. I devoured every available literature on him which I was able to get from my priest professor. As I read, I knew I was at the threshold of a truth I have long searched for. Then Swami came in my dream.
It was a vision for the gods. He came as pure energy… pure light… robed in radiant red… resplendent in Glory! He waved His Hand in a circular motion. I never knew Swami had that mannerism of waving His Hands to materialize things. This wave did not create any particular object but pure energy. That wave of energy drew me to Himself. And then He hugged me. When He hugged me I dissolved.
I lost every individuality of the self, like when you put salt into water, it just dissolves. I dissolved in the ocean of His love. And then within that experience, without speaking He said, “I am the One that you have been looking for”.
TD: Without speaking you heard Him saying, “I am the one you are looking for.”
FC: Yes, without speaking. I knew He was that 'unknown Presence' that has been hugging me in the cavity of my heart right from my early childhood. He was the Voice. He revealed Himself to me in that dream and I knew without reason that He is the very source of my soul, my very life principle, the Truth that I have ever looked for. And when I woke up that was everything.
TD: And there was probably nobody in the seminary to share that beautiful dream with.
FC: I didn’t need to share with anyone because no one will understand or appreciate my experience. I rediscovered my secret. And I was really beaming with life and joy.
TD: Was there any contradiction in your heart, in your soul or in your consciousness between Sai Baba who came in your dream so beautifully and Jesus?
FC: Contradiction? When He came all contradictions dissolved. When I dissolved in Him, all my questions vanished and what remained were just answers.
I then wanted to come straight away to Puttaparthi. My soul started pining to be with Him, to see His physical form. And something happened. I was expelled from the Seminary. There was a decree from the General Mother House in Rome which was addressed to the students through the Directors of Formation.
TD: A decree from Rome?
FC: The letter was read to the students and its mandate gave students the opportunity, for the first time ever, to make a positive contribution to the way they were being formed. The students saw this opportunity as the Moment of Divine grace. The students spoke with one voice for a radical transformation in the process of their formation.
To harmonize ideas the students set up a committee made up of seven students. And I was elected as one of the members of this body. This committee worked tirelessly every day and into the late night hours. They were to harmonize the ideas and deliberations of the students into a systematic and coherent whole. At the end, the students came up with a classic document entitled, 'The Moment of Grace'.
Father Charles conducting a multi-faith mass in Prasanthi Nilayam When the appointed time came, Rome sent her delegate to represent the Mother House in the deliberations that took place between the Directors of Formation, the Rector of the Seminary and student representatives. The students had two seats in this committee. I was again elected by the students as one of the two representatives.
Rome accepted the document but the seminary authorities rejected it although in a subtle way, since they cannot contradict a higher authority.
So I was expelled from the seminary. Later on, 11 other deacons were also expelled with me when they refused to sign a document stating that they are disassociating themselves from the “Moment of Grace” document. Later on, more students, including the rest of the seven members of the committee which produced the “Moment of Grace” document were asked to leave.
When the Mother House in Rome learnt about this, the Superior General (the highest authority in our order) flew immediately down to our seminary. He requested that all the expelled seminarians be recalled.
TD: The Superior General flew?
Venerable Francis Libermann, often called the Congregation's 'second founder', was also its eleventh Superior General (1848–1852). FC: He flew to Nigeria. When I arrived, he called me in a private audience and we sat, like mother and child, and talked for close to one hour. He had deep understanding of the anguish of the Seminarians; their yearning for spiritual intimacy and the poverty of the Mother to satisfy their spiritual hunger. He told me that the Mother House had adopted our document as a working model for formation in the congregation.
He was with us for close to two weeks and before he left he gave instructions that all the deacons who had been sent away be ordained priest that same year. So, on the 4th of December, 1999, I was ordained a priest together with the other deacons.
And after the ordination, I was posted to the archdiocese of Lagos to work at St. Michael’s parish. But I was pining to come to Puttaparthi. I felt that was my home.
Now each priest is entitled to a one month leave every year.
The First Visit to Prasanthi Nilayam
TD: So you took your one month leave, after you were posted at St. Michael’s Church, were you the associate pastor or the pastor?
FC: I was the Associate Pastor.
TD: And you jumped on an aeroplane and flew to India.
FC: I ran! It was the year 2001.
TD: So you get on a bus or a cab and came to Puttaparthi. And then what happened?
FC: I broke down. It was in the evening. Arathi was being offered to Swami when I arrived. When I saw His form I broke down sobbing, really uncontrollably. In this trip, Swami showered upon me the love of infinite mothers. It is unbelievable.
Ordination of priests in a Catholic Church TD: Did Swami call you?
FC: Yes, He glided to me and then said, “Where are you from?” I said, “Swami, from Nigeria.” Then He asked, “How many are you?” I said, “One.” He said, “Go”.
TD: Oh my goodness!
Swami blessing Father Charles with a materialised chain FC: Then I went into the interview room. There were lot of things that happened in this first interview which was also very significant in my life. We all were seated, the gents on one side and the ladies on the other side. And Swami was so loving and jovial. First, He materialized vibhuti for the ladies, and He started joking with people and answering their questions. But I was totally absorbed in His glory, my eyes couldn’t be taken off His face. Once in a while, He would look at me, with that type of naughty look that dissolves your being into nothingness.
Then suddenly, as if to wake me up from my state of absorption, He asked, “How are your wives?”
[laughs]
I was torn apart. I opened my mouth and could not speak. Inside me I knew He knew everything. I knew He knew that I am a priest and that I don’t have a wife, not to talk of wives. I couldn’t bring myself to say anything and Swami ignored me. After He had called everyone for the inner private interview, He stood up walking towards the entrance door of the interview room as if the interview was over and everyone stood up to go. When He reached where I was, He said, “Ah, come.” And everyone sat down again while He took me to the inner interview room. There He said to me, “Sometimes you want to marry, sometimes not. Don’t worry, you are Mine”.
Those words were the consummation of all my aspirations. Swami became for me not a God but the bride of my soul.
TD: Father Charles, on the Christmas Day, you told your story before tens of thousands of people in front of Sai Baba. I have to imagine your superiors, the Vatican, the Catholic Church knows that you love Sai Baba and you love Jesus.
FC: For me, they are one.
TD: For them, is it one or is it a problem?
FC: For some of them, officially it is a problem. But for me, it is not a problem. And my prayer of course to Swami is to reveal Himself to the Christian Church; to remove this cloud of maya that He uses to cover His reality from us. Divine incarnations always veil themselves. The same was true of Jesus. The religious authorities of His time could not comprehend his Divinity. So they killed Him by crucifixion.
TD: But the Vatican didn’t look very favourably on one of your priests – Don Mario who was excommunicated as Catholic priest. Are you fearful that they could do that to you?
FC: I am not bothered about this because what Swami wills will happen.
TD: So do they allow you to be a Catholic priest knowing you are someone who has Sai Baba in your heart?
FC: My superiors have asked me to renounce Swami – saying that I cannot serve two masters at the same time. But how can I renounce myself? I told them. Renouncing Swami is like renouncing my very Self. It also means renouncing Jesus because Sai Baba and Jesus are names referring to the same divine Reality which is our very essence.
Even in the church, I was preaching this message of Oneness. This is Swami’s message. This is also the message of Jesus. I was teaching Swami without calling Swami and there was an explosion of consciousness. Name is not important. What is important is the reality, this Love. God is Love, God is truth, God is righteousness and this righteousness, this Love, this Truth is in everyone. Once you are aware of your true reality as Love, you will discover that you are not different from Jesus or Sai Baba.
The Inevitable Ordeals of a Journey with the Master
TD: So did they ask you to re-negotiate one more time? How did they allow it to end, your Superior General?
FC: They didn’t know what to do with me and I didn’t know what to do with them. There was a time I really wanted to resign from the Catholic priesthood. The Church had already stripped me of all responsibilities, thrown me out of the parish and without means to sustain my physical needs. And Swami did not make matters easy. He ignored me and for many years, He did not call, speak or look at me. I was literally stripped of all my identifications. Attachment to the physical form of Swami can also be a very sweet trap. And I was trapped. And Swami tore me away from it. In a very hard way, I went through hell. But it was His grace.
I wrote a letter to Swami asking for His permission. But Swami would not even collect my letter. For many months I used every means to give this letter to Swami, but Swami would not collect it. Then I said in my heart, “Swami, You will get this letter whether You like it or not.”
[laughs]
So I went to the courier office (Swami was in Whitefield then) and couriered it to Swami. A proof that Swami has received this letter would be a signed slip from His mail attendant who collects all his mails and hands them to Him. I told the lady that this letter was very important to me and that I would want the receipt that Swami has received it. She told me to come back in the evening and take the signed slip. When the lady saw me in the evening, she knew why I had come and without saying a word, she pulled a drawer and brought out a bundle of slips. She went through them many times trying to identify my slip without any success. She then pleaded with me to return the following day so she could ask her colleague where he had kept it. I returned the following morning but my slip was not found.
So you can’t beat Swami in the game, you can’t beat Him. I did not resign and they did not excommunicate me. Truly, everything is in Swami’s hands. What He wills happens. We don’t do anything. God is the doer. You may think you are the one making things to happen. But that is just your thought.
There is no need to try to make things happen. Because what will happen will happen no matter how you try to make it not to happen and what will not happen will not happen no matter how you try to make it to happen. When you force things to happen, they may happen. But they have happened only because they were meant to happen. Your control has not added anything to the happening. If on the other hand you say, okay, I am not going to do anything since everything happens because they are meant to happen, still what will happen will happen. Jesus once said, “If you refuse to praise God, the stones will rise up and praise Him”. This means, you are like a pen in God’s hands. If you refuse to write, God will take up another pen. Yours is to write but you cannot determine or stop what has to be written.
When you realize this, you will simply do your duty surrendering the outcome to the power that makes things happen. Then you will begin to enjoy that spontaneous flow of God’s energy expressing itself in and through you.
Know Yourself to Know Him
TD: Father Charles, as we draw this to a conclusion and people might be seeing this for the first time and they hear your wonderful story about being in love with Jesus, being a Catholic priest, listening to your inner voice which has been a friend for so long, and now the figure of Sai Baba, who might be new to them. Let me ask you a very important question, “Who is Sai Baba?”
FC: Who is the one asking this question?
TD: Who is the one asking the question, who is Sai Baba?
FC: Who are you? It is ridiculous to make any claim on the identity of Sai Baba when you have not recognised your own identity. For example, it is absurd to say that Sai Baba is God when you do not know who God is. Jesus once told His followers, “You do not know me because you do not know God. If you have known me, you would have known God also”. Now, Jesus and Sai Baba tell us, “You too are God”. The task therefore is to go back to the drawing table and rediscover our true Self. If you have not realised your own Divinity, how can you know the divinity of another? When you do not know your Self, how can you comprehend the same Self that is Sai Baba? Without this Self Knowledge, it is impossible trying to fathom the reality of Sai Baba or Jesus. Sai Baba has also said this in one of His discourses – that it is a waste of time trying to understand His reality. The only way out is to understand your own reality.
For example, when you say, "I am Ted" or "I am Charles", try to inquire, who is this 'I am' who is called Ted or Charles? Let us look deep into ourselves and find God where we lost Him. Let us get to that inner consciousness. Swami said, “Don’t worship Me; when you worship Me you put Me out as an idol. You project Me out of yourself. I am you, you are Me. We are one. I know it, you don’t know it. That is the only difference."
TD: That is the same thing with Jesus?
FC: Yes, who is Jesus? Jesus is the 'I am' in you. Whenever you say, “I am”, you are calling the name of Jesus. This 'I-am-ness' is pure existence. In the Bible, when Moses asked God (Yahweh), “What is Your name?” God said, “My name is ‘I am’”. Hence the Hebrew God Yahweh literally means 'I am'. Jesus identified with Yahweh, when He said, “The Father and I are one”. This 'I am' is the spark of God in every heart. This microphone is saying ‘I am’, otherwise it can’t stand there. This seat is saying I am, otherwise I can’t sit on it. This 'I-am-ness' in everything is Jesus. The moment you know this 'I am', you will truly know who Sai Baba or Jesus is.
God appeared to Moses as the Burning Bush and calls Himself, 'Yahweh, meaning 'I am' TD: And can it be completely comparable for you to be a loving, serving Catholic priest, and a follower of Sai Baba? Can there be both?
FC: There is no both. A problem arises when you see two where there has always been one. Sai Baba and Jesus are not two realities. Name and form may differ, but God is One. Only God is real. The rest are labels. When you see God everywhere, there can be no contradictions. Your wife, I heard her calling you honey. And you answered, isn’t it? You too have so many names but your reality is one. God has so many names but there is only one undivided reality.
TD: I now know how that Holy Spirit changed your life. I know how that Voice, how Jesus transformed your life. How has Sai Baba transformed Charles’ life?
FC: When you meet Sai Baba, you meet Jesus. It’s all Love, pure love, boundless love, selfless love. It has always been Love transforming me as the 'Unknown Presence' or the 'Voice' in the Jungle or as Lord Jesus in the Seminary or as Sai Baba in Puttaparthi. God is Love.
The same Divine Consciousness in different Names and Forms through the ages TD: Father Charles, as we say goodbye, if you have a chance to tell from all the stories of your experiences in the seminary, from all the examples you gave, your experience with your father; if there is one message that you could tell the world, a message at this moment about hope for themselves what would it be?
FC: Be happy. Our Father is here. We are passing through the most gracious, auspicious moment in the history of creation, not just in the history of mankind, but in the history of the whole of creation. God, in His full embodiment, is here with us. Why worry? Be happy. Allow God to take over you and experience that inner-love which is intoxicating; that spirit-joy which is unstoppable, and that soul-peace which is unsurpassable. This is my message.
TD: Amen. God bless you. Sairam.
- Team Radio Sai
(Interviewed by Ted Henry originally for Souljourns)
If you enjoyed this article, you may be interested in our Dec 2007 Cover Story
- The Divine reality revealed… The Truth of the Father and the SonYou can also read articles by Father Charles Ogada that have featured in our Website:
- The Story of Easter – Jesus is Risen!
- Resurrection and Reincarnation - Born, Not to be Born Again
- The Spiritual Significance of 'The Sermon on the Mount'And the interview with Prof. G. Venkataraman -
"Baba makes me live the life of a priest IN full awareness"sourced:
http://media.radiosai.org/journals/vol_12/01MAR14/FATHER-CHARLES-OGADA-part-01.htm
http://media.radiosai.org/journals/vol_12/01MAR14/FATHER-CHARLES-OGADA-part-02.htm
Posted on: Mar 16, 2014
Radio Sai Bhajan Classroom
Bhajan - Madhuvana Sanchari Shyama Murari
Indian Notation - Western Notation
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LYRICS |
TUNES | RAGA |
MEANING | MANDIR VERSION |
CONVERSATION | FULL PROGRAM | |
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Radio Sai Bhajan Classroom is a weekly Live program on Radio Sai featured every Thursday wherein all aspects of one selected Sai bhajan are dealt with comprehensively.
Madhuvana Sanchari Shyama Murari
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1. Madhuvana Sanchari Shyama Murari Oh Lord Krishna! You are the One who roams in the forest of Madhuvana. You are the inscrutable Lord who is of a dark-blue complexion as the rain cloud and satisfies our deepest thirst for peace, joy and wisdom. You are the Supreme Lord who destroys our ignorance by helping us overcome our body attachment. 2. Shri Madhusudana Muralidhari Oh Lord Krishna! You are the most loving Lord who spares no effort in uprooting our ego. You are the unparalleled master who exhorts us to become beautiful instruments and carriers of Your music and love by eliminating our ego and desires. You are the One who fills us with your love, making us simple and beautiful. 3. Madhuvana Sanchari Shyama Murari Oh Lord Krishna! You are the Lord who eliminates all the negative qualities in our hearts. You are the enigmatic One who resides in the depths of our hearts. 4. Madhava Mohana Mayura Mukutadhara Oh Lord Krishna! You are the master of Mother Lakshmi, who represents not only all types of prosperity and wealth but also nature and illusion. You are the most enchanting One with lovely peacock feathers on Your crown. 5. Mathura Natha Prabhu Giridhari Oh Lord Krishna! You are the Lord of Mathura, the One who rules our hearts and consciousness. You the One who lifts all our burdens, however mighty like mountains they may be — the Lord who is always there for Your devotees. 6. Mathura Natha Sai Giridhari Oh Lord Sai Krishna! You are the Lord of our hearts, the ruler of our lives, and the centre of our being. |  | |
Bhajan Notation
Raga: Not in any particular raga
Shruti - C# Pancham
Beat (Tala): Keherwa or Adi Taalam - 8 Beat
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Bhajan Theka |
Dhin - na dhin | - Dhin Dhina - | Tin -Na Dhin | - Dhin Dhina - |
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1st line | Madhuvana | Sanchari | Shyama |
Murari |
Notation | M G P M R S |
S 'D . 'n | S . G G | M D . P M |
2nd line | Shri | Madhusudana |
Murali | dhari |
Notation | D . D D |
P D S' n . D P | P D M G | G M D P M |
3rd line | Madhava | Mohana |
Mayura | Mukutadhara |
Notation | M . D n
| S' . S' S' | N S' N S' | D S' n . D |
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4th line | Mathura | Natha | Prabhu |
Giridhari |
Notation | D . D P | n . D P M .
| P D M G | G M D P M |
5th line | Mathura
| Natha | Sai | Giridhari |
Notation | D . D P | n . D P M . | P D M G |
G M D P M |
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UNDERLINE - LOWER NOTE
Scale - C
Bhajan Theka |
Dhin - na dhin | - Dhin Dhina - | Tin -Na Dhin | - Dhin Dhina -
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1st line | Madhuvana | Sanchari |
Shyama | Murari |
Notation | F E G F D . C
| C A . A # | C. E E | F A G F |
2nd line | Shri | Madhusudana
| Murali | dhari |
Notation |
A . A A | G A C' A# . A G | G A F E | E F A G F |
3rd line | Madhava |
Mohana | Mayura | Mukutadhara |
Notation |
F . A A# | C' . C' C' | B C B C | A C A# . A
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4th line | Mathura |
Natha | Prabhu | Giridhari |
Notation
| A . A G | A# , A G F | G A F E |
E F A G F |
5th line | Mathura |
Natha | Sai | Giridhari |
Notation | A . A G | A# , A G F | G A F E |
E F A G F |
Bhajan Conversation: A Short conversation with brother Tara Shankar, a member of Prasanthi Bhajan group who works in Sri Sathya Sai Sadhana Trust, Bhakta Sahayak Sangh.
Notation by: Ms. Prasanna Desaraju
Note: This bhajan has been sung with slight modifications of lyrics and tune, over the years. We have tried to offer you the bhajan's lyrics in it's most poppular and accepted form, and as it was sung in the divine Presence in the recent years. That also explains why the complete verion of the bhajan (as rendered by Swami) is slightly different.
- Radio Sai Team
sourced:http://media.radiosai.org/journals/vol_12/01MAR14/Madhuvana-Sanchari-Shyama-Murari-radiosai-bhajan-tutor.htm
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