Threats from Sencha
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dire...@mrcgem.com
Nov 9, 2017, 4:39:29 PM11/9/17
to Sahana-Eden
We're a small nonprofit with essentially no assets.
A fews days ago I received notice that under that URL our "usage of the
aforementioned software requires users to procure commercial licenses with
Sencha".
I responded, perhaps foolishly, that the only thing we were running is a copy of Sahan Eden installed for evaluation and referred to the open source licensing.
Today I received the typical threat of legal action along with an invoice for a large sum. The invoice itself says it's confidential. To avoid any possible further complications, I won't go into any details.
Has anyone else run into this? Or are we just lucky?
de...@sahanafoundation.org
Nov 9, 2017, 6:06:57 PM11/9/17
to Sahana-Eden
Hi.
We recently received a misuse notice from Sencha as well. It looks erroneous to us and we believe that people using EDEN software have nothing to worry about. With that said, we're getting advice from our lawyers about how we can respond to Sencha most effectively and protect our community from threats like this.
We'll let you know what our lawyers say and we'll do our best to support you through this process.
Feel free to email me directly if you have questions/comments/etc.
James Rogers
Nov 10, 2017, 7:25:58 AM11/10/17
to Sahana-Eden
Legal threats & FUD make it impossible to deploy EDEN.
How much effort is it to abandon ExtJS in favor of ... anything else?
--James
Fran Boon
Nov 10, 2017, 7:36:41 AM11/10/17
to sahan...@googlegroups.com
On 10 November 2017 at 12:25, James Rogers <li...@preternatural.net> wrote:
> Legal threats & FUD make it impossible to deploy EDEN.
For some people, maybe.
> Legal threats & FUD make it impossible to deploy EDEN.
Personally I won't let such threats deter me...they have no substance in fact.
> How much effort is it to abandon ExtJS in favor of ... anything else?
This will of course need to happen at some point, but it is definitely
far from trivial...there are *sooo* many usecases we have for mapping.
This should be done at the same time as we migrate to either Leaflet
or OpenLayers 3.
F
Dominic König
Nov 10, 2017, 7:53:37 AM11/10/17
to sahan...@googlegroups.com
The Sencha website states clearly:
"""
Sencha Ext JS is made available under Commercial License or the GNU General
Public License version 3 (GPLv3).
If you choose not to pay a fee and use the GPLv3 license, you are required to
release the source code of any program that you distribute that uses Ext JS.
"""
Well, obviously we have released the entrie source code of Sahana Eden - so
you are free to use ExtJS with Sahana under GPLv3.
Make sure that you retain the Sahana link in the page footer which allows the
user to find/access the Sahana source code - and then you have fulfilled the
requirements of the licence.
If you are using custom code in your deployment that is not available for the
users, then you may indeed be required to purchase a commercial license from
Sencha - or to make your code available.
Dominic
"""
Sencha Ext JS is made available under Commercial License or the GNU General
Public License version 3 (GPLv3).
If you choose not to pay a fee and use the GPLv3 license, you are required to
release the source code of any program that you distribute that uses Ext JS.
"""
Well, obviously we have released the entrie source code of Sahana Eden - so
you are free to use ExtJS with Sahana under GPLv3.
Make sure that you retain the Sahana link in the page footer which allows the
user to find/access the Sahana source code - and then you have fulfilled the
requirements of the licence.
If you are using custom code in your deployment that is not available for the
users, then you may indeed be required to purchase a commercial license from
Sencha - or to make your code available.
Dominic
Director
Nov 10, 2017, 12:42:18 PM11/10/17
to sahan...@googlegroups.com
My biggest concern is that these license trolls will file a suit in some venue where we can’t afford to respond, then get a default judgment.
My greatest hope is that it’s just a misunderstanding and we’ll receive some positive response saying it was all a mistake.
It appears that Embarcadero bought Sencha around August. I don’t see that Embarcadero routinely goes after users of the products they acquire, so maybe this really is a misunderstanding.
I hope you’ll be able to resolve this with Embarcadero.
Sherwin
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Dominic König
Nov 10, 2017, 1:47:04 PM11/10/17
to sahan...@googlegroups.com
The problem is that,
regardless whether this is a misunderstanding or not, the fact alone that
people get occasionally threatened for deploying Sahana is enough of a show
stopper for the use-cases it is aimed at.
Nobody in a real emergency situation can handle such threats, even if they
were baseless.
Apart from that, the idea behind open source licenses is to protect open
source projects - not to threaten them.
That it is at all possible to construe a free software license in such way
that Sahana - out of all projects - can be presented as violating it makes it
rather questionable whether that license actually protects anyone's freedom
(let alone saves lives).
My general perception is that in practice, GPLv3 is more often used by
commercial entities (who can afford the lawyers to interpret GPLv3 for their
purposes) to control and restrict the re-use of their software, i.e. to create
proprietary software in disguise (which is what ExtJS actually is!), than to
ensure the code is, and remains, truly free for anyone to use.
But the latter is an imperative for Sahana - what would it be if not truly
free for anyone to use, regardless of the exact deployment conditions? What
would be the point if it would put restrictions on where or how or by whom it
can be used, and what other software it can be combined with?
The fact that GPLv3 creates a path for license competition and legal threats
/within/ the open source world (and this isn't the first time it happens) makes
it in itself a threat to free software.
Thus, I'm seeing a very strong incentive to indeed ditch GPLv3 dependencies
asap...and would go as far as stating that before you waste your money on
lawyers or license fees, you may be doing better giving it to SSF to get rid
of those dependencies ;) and in the case of ExtJS, that may even save you some
:P
Dominic
regardless whether this is a misunderstanding or not, the fact alone that
people get occasionally threatened for deploying Sahana is enough of a show
stopper for the use-cases it is aimed at.
Nobody in a real emergency situation can handle such threats, even if they
were baseless.
Apart from that, the idea behind open source licenses is to protect open
source projects - not to threaten them.
That it is at all possible to construe a free software license in such way
that Sahana - out of all projects - can be presented as violating it makes it
rather questionable whether that license actually protects anyone's freedom
(let alone saves lives).
My general perception is that in practice, GPLv3 is more often used by
commercial entities (who can afford the lawyers to interpret GPLv3 for their
purposes) to control and restrict the re-use of their software, i.e. to create
proprietary software in disguise (which is what ExtJS actually is!), than to
ensure the code is, and remains, truly free for anyone to use.
But the latter is an imperative for Sahana - what would it be if not truly
free for anyone to use, regardless of the exact deployment conditions? What
would be the point if it would put restrictions on where or how or by whom it
can be used, and what other software it can be combined with?
The fact that GPLv3 creates a path for license competition and legal threats
/within/ the open source world (and this isn't the first time it happens) makes
it in itself a threat to free software.
Thus, I'm seeing a very strong incentive to indeed ditch GPLv3 dependencies
asap...and would go as far as stating that before you waste your money on
lawyers or license fees, you may be doing better giving it to SSF to get rid
of those dependencies ;) and in the case of ExtJS, that may even save you some
:P
Dominic
de...@sahanafoundation.org
Nov 10, 2017, 4:06:54 PM11/10/17
to Sahana-Eden
I'd like to reiterate that that the SSF is retaining legal counsel for this issue and that we hope to have a directive from our lawyer that we can share with the community by middle of next week.
Neetish Bhat
Nov 10, 2017, 4:11:29 PM11/10/17
to sahan...@googlegroups.com
Hi guys,
I was working in a company which was reselling sencha, i even had a sencha account. I can talk to some of the contacts i know. But as I'm a junior engineer, it wouldn't pass through, but i will try to contact them and yes i understanding replacng extjs is pretty hard now, but you can take a look at pqgrid.
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Regards Neetish
Dominic König
Nov 10, 2017, 6:56:48 PM11/10/17
to sahan...@googlegroups.com
I heard you, Devin--
and my last comment isn't so much about Sencha/ExtJS in particular, but more
generally about the risks involved with GPLv3 dependencies in highly
permissive (deliberately permissive!) FOSS projects like ours.
For an ex-FSF associate member, it is truly annoying that something that was
meant to promote and protect free software is abused to market proprietary
software - under the pretense of it being free, while actually (and in fact,
often deliberately) not providing any realistic option for free use.
In the case of GPLv3 that is especially frustrating because while more
permissive FOSS licenses don't actually care so much about how the code is re-
used, GPL was developed specifically to support the proliferation of free
software.
And thus, labeling a software as GPL while actually trying to lure FOSS
projects into the proprietary trap is turning the whole idea of GPL upside
down, and an insult to every true FOSS advocate on this planet.
(I'm fuming here, really)
However, the 3rd version of the license is partially to blame for this, as is
the lack of progress with legislation to protect any non-proprietary
intellectual assets - which is probably because all the law makers in the
world are so busy to protect property and profits, as if that were the only
thing that ever matters.
Okay, okay - I /shall/ stop this rant now. I heard you, and hope you heard me
too.
Dominic
and my last comment isn't so much about Sencha/ExtJS in particular, but more
generally about the risks involved with GPLv3 dependencies in highly
permissive (deliberately permissive!) FOSS projects like ours.
For an ex-FSF associate member, it is truly annoying that something that was
meant to promote and protect free software is abused to market proprietary
software - under the pretense of it being free, while actually (and in fact,
often deliberately) not providing any realistic option for free use.
In the case of GPLv3 that is especially frustrating because while more
permissive FOSS licenses don't actually care so much about how the code is re-
used, GPL was developed specifically to support the proliferation of free
software.
And thus, labeling a software as GPL while actually trying to lure FOSS
projects into the proprietary trap is turning the whole idea of GPL upside
down, and an insult to every true FOSS advocate on this planet.
(I'm fuming here, really)
However, the 3rd version of the license is partially to blame for this, as is
the lack of progress with legislation to protect any non-proprietary
intellectual assets - which is probably because all the law makers in the
world are so busy to protect property and profits, as if that were the only
thing that ever matters.
Okay, okay - I /shall/ stop this rant now. I heard you, and hope you heard me
too.
Dominic
Director
Dec 11, 2017, 2:05:50 PM12/11/17
to sahan...@googlegroups.com
It’s been 4 weeks – any more info about the Sencha issue?
From: sahan...@googlegroups.com [mailto:sahan...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of de...@sahanafoundation.org
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2017 4:07 PM
To: Sahana-Eden <sahan...@googlegroups.com>
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