Sagecell : is it possible to install the Wolfram engine ?
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Emmanuel Charpentier
Nov 19, 2022, 11:36:35 AM11/19/22
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Dear list
Now that the *gratis* (but by no means free) [Wofram engine](https://www.wolfram.com/engine/) can be used for "pre-production" projects, it seems to me that it *could* be installed on `sagegell.sagemath.org`, this allowing access to the `algorithm="mathematica"` options and, more generally, using Mathematica algorithms for comparison with Sage ones... This is sometimes more than useful...
Technically, installing it on a Debian machine, and on a WSL installation of Sage under Windows was a breeze. It should be possible to install it on whatever runs the Sagecell server
Legally, perusing the [FAQ](https://www.wolfram.com/engine/faq/) makes me think that this use *could* be alowed unfer Wolfram's terms, but I am by no means any kind of lawyer...
The same could also apply to Cocalc ... except that Cocalc is also a commercial product, therefore excluded from Wolfram terms for the *gratis* Wolfram engine...
Reactions ? Advices ?
kcrisman
Nov 19, 2022, 2:24:15 PM11/19/22
to sage-support
The same could also apply to Cocalc ... except that Cocalc is also a commercial product, therefore excluded from Wolfram terms for the *gratis* Wolfram engine...
Technically if someone ran a Cocalc instance (say, from a Docker image) that was not commercial, maybe that would be okay? (IANAL as usual.)
kcrisman
Nov 19, 2022, 2:25:19 PM11/19/22
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William Stein
Nov 19, 2022, 2:54:37 PM11/19/22
to sage-s...@googlegroups.com, sage-cell
Hi,
I just read through the links you provide. I hope I'm wrong, but it
seems pretty clear to me that
you absolutely cannot legally use Wolfram engine as part of
https://sagecell.sagemath.org
or https://cocalc.com without purchasing a license. They do sell a
license that would make
it possible to use Wolfram engine in these sites, and the cost would
be a function of "number
of virtual machines" (and maybe cpu's).
There seems to be no information on their pages about how much any of
their Wolfram engine
licenses cost for cloud computing use. They do say the cost to
distribute Wolfram engine
with installed software is "typically $5–$100 per Wolfram Engine,
depending on volume
and application", so... **Pure speculation:** my guess is that they do
cloud licensing
on a similar case-by-case basis, e.g., you have to record exactly
how/when it is getting
used, and probably pay Wolfram $5 per active user per month or
something like that.
-- William
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--
William (http://wstein.org)
I just read through the links you provide. I hope I'm wrong, but it
seems pretty clear to me that
you absolutely cannot legally use Wolfram engine as part of
https://sagecell.sagemath.org
or https://cocalc.com without purchasing a license. They do sell a
license that would make
it possible to use Wolfram engine in these sites, and the cost would
be a function of "number
of virtual machines" (and maybe cpu's).
There seems to be no information on their pages about how much any of
their Wolfram engine
licenses cost for cloud computing use. They do say the cost to
distribute Wolfram engine
with installed software is "typically $5–$100 per Wolfram Engine,
depending on volume
and application", so... **Pure speculation:** my guess is that they do
cloud licensing
on a similar case-by-case basis, e.g., you have to record exactly
how/when it is getting
used, and probably pay Wolfram $5 per active user per month or
something like that.
-- William
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-support" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-support...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-support/2b1592d2-85ab-4d55-886e-8da460abf604n%40googlegroups.com.
--
William (http://wstein.org)
William Stein
Nov 19, 2022, 2:59:21 PM11/19/22
to sage-s...@googlegroups.com
On Sat, Nov 19, 2022 at 11:25 AM kcrisman <kcri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Though see this: https://www.wolfram.com/engine/faq/#can-i-use-the-free-engine-in-an-open-source-project
That says " However, the Free Engine license does not permit end-user
>
> Though see this: https://www.wolfram.com/engine/faq/#can-i-use-the-free-engine-in-an-open-source-project
use, except when this use is for further development. For end-user
uses, users must have a separate license for the Wolfram Engine."
which seems to me to make it crystal clear that it would not be legal
to install cocalc-docker (or even Jupyter notebook) and along with
Wolfram Engine and use it for any purpose except for development of
cocalc or Jupyter itself (i.e., to make sure the UI works).
Everything in that FAQ is about "developing a product". This is a
license aimed at increasing the number of reasons people will buy
Mathematica, by being nice to developers who are building products
that use Mathematica.
The discussions like this
https://mathematica.stackexchange.com/questions/274333/wolfram-engine-jupyter-stackrel-mathematica
(and the corresponding reddit thread) seem to me to be wildly
optimistic in their interpretation.
Anyway, I'm not a lawyer, though I applaud Wolfram, Inc. for posting
that very clearly worded plain language FAQ instead of just some
massive wall of legalese.
William
> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 2:24:15 PM UTC-5 kcrisman wrote:
>>>
>>> The same could also apply to Cocalc ... except that Cocalc is also a commercial product, therefore excluded from Wolfram terms for the *gratis* Wolfram engine...
>>
>>
>> Technically if someone ran a Cocalc instance (say, from a Docker image) that was not commercial, maybe that would be okay? (IANAL as usual.)
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-support" group.
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--
William (http://wstein.org)
Raymond Rogers
Nov 19, 2022, 9:59:14 PM11/19/22
to sage-s...@googlegroups.com
BTW: I have used the Mathematica package on a
Raspberry Pi3+ over vnc, and the setup works quite well. It's
not a brain dead version; it knows things about Generalized
Hypergeometric functions; and gives answers in a reasonable
time. It's nice to know that I can send off a problem and have
"somebody else" (the Raspberry) work on it while I do something
else :) I presume that this is legal?
I didn't do stress tests though; I normally use SageMath.
rrogers
Dima Pasechnik
Nov 30, 2022, 4:26:17 AM11/30/22
to sage-s...@googlegroups.com
On Sat, Nov 19, 2022 at 7:59 PM William Stein <wst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Nov 19, 2022 at 11:25 AM kcrisman <kcri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Though see this: https://www.wolfram.com/engine/faq/#can-i-use-the-free-engine-in-an-open-source-project
>
> That says " However, the Free Engine license does not permit end-user
> use, except when this use is for further development. For end-user
> uses, users must have a separate license for the Wolfram Engine."
> which seems to me to make it crystal clear that it would not be legal
> to install cocalc-docker (or even Jupyter notebook) and along with
> Wolfram Engine and use it for any purpose except for development of
> cocalc or Jupyter itself (i.e., to make sure the UI works).
> Everything in that FAQ is about "developing a product".
I'm not a lawyer, but in Wolfram's mindset a scientific paper is a
>
> On Sat, Nov 19, 2022 at 11:25 AM kcrisman <kcri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Though see this: https://www.wolfram.com/engine/faq/#can-i-use-the-free-engine-in-an-open-source-project
>
> That says " However, the Free Engine license does not permit end-user
> use, except when this use is for further development. For end-user
> uses, users must have a separate license for the Wolfram Engine."
> which seems to me to make it crystal clear that it would not be legal
> to install cocalc-docker (or even Jupyter notebook) and along with
> Wolfram Engine and use it for any purpose except for development of
> cocalc or Jupyter itself (i.e., to make sure the UI works).
> Everything in that FAQ is about "developing a product".
product, too, no ?
(Especially assuming it has enough self-promotion hype in it - not
sure, if this is a joke :-))
Would putting Wolfram Engine on cocalc with a warning saying "read
their terms of use" be
too dangerous, risking more than just being slapped with a "cease and
desist" letter?
Dima
> This is a
> license aimed at increasing the number of reasons people will buy
> Mathematica, by being nice to developers who are building products
> that use Mathematica.
>
> The discussions like this
>
> https://mathematica.stackexchange.com/questions/274333/wolfram-engine-jupyter-stackrel-mathematica
>
> (and the corresponding reddit thread) seem to me to be wildly
> optimistic in their interpretation.
>
> Anyway, I'm not a lawyer, though I applaud Wolfram, Inc. for posting
> that very clearly worded plain language FAQ instead of just some
> massive wall of legalese.
>
> William
>
> > On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 2:24:15 PM UTC-5 kcrisman wrote:
> >>>
> >>> The same could also apply to Cocalc ... except that Cocalc is also a commercial product, therefore excluded from Wolfram terms for the *gratis* Wolfram engine...
> >>
> >>
> >> Technically if someone ran a Cocalc instance (say, from a Docker image) that was not commercial, maybe that would be okay? (IANAL as usual.)
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-support" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-support...@googlegroups.com.
> > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-support/58eebc97-408e-4511-bbc8-c1a61d19249en%40googlegroups.com.
>
>
>
> --
> William (http://wstein.org)
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-support" group.
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Emmanuel Charpentier
Nov 30, 2022, 11:47:26 AM11/30/22
to sage-support
Timeo advocatos a communa lege loquentes... The relevant precedents in (what passes for) american law strongly hint at a very complicated resolution (which would enrich lawyers and nobody else...).
Where is Kurt Gödel when you need him ;-)...
I do not know if William's analysis is right, but it seems to be prudent, and therefore a sound advice for preventive behavior. This is even stronger in his case, since his company sells Cocalc access/use... this point may be weaker for Sagecell (nothing is sold...), but I wouldn't bet on it : as far as I know, what passes for legal logic has never been proved complete nor consistent.
Where is Kurt Gödel when you need him ;-)...
William Stein
Nov 30, 2022, 12:00:22 PM11/30/22
to sage-s...@googlegroups.com
On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 1:26 AM Dima Pasechnik <dim...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Nov 19, 2022 at 7:59 PM William Stein <wst...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 19, 2022 at 11:25 AM kcrisman <kcri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Though see this: https://www.wolfram.com/engine/faq/#can-i-use-the-free-engine-in-an-open-source-project
> >
> > That says " However, the Free Engine license does not permit end-user
> > use, except when this use is for further development. For end-user
> > uses, users must have a separate license for the Wolfram Engine."
> > which seems to me to make it crystal clear that it would not be legal
> > to install cocalc-docker (or even Jupyter notebook) and along with
> > Wolfram Engine and use it for any purpose except for development of
> > cocalc or Jupyter itself (i.e., to make sure the UI works).
> > Everything in that FAQ is about "developing a product".
>
> I'm not a lawyer, but in Wolfram's mindset a scientific paper is a
> product, too, no ?
> (Especially assuming it has enough self-promotion hype in it - not
> sure, if this is a joke :-))
>
> Would putting Wolfram Engine on cocalc with a warning saying "read
> their terms of use" be
> too dangerous, risking more than just being slapped with a "cease and
> desist" letter?
Dima,
>
> On Sat, Nov 19, 2022 at 7:59 PM William Stein <wst...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 19, 2022 at 11:25 AM kcrisman <kcri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Though see this: https://www.wolfram.com/engine/faq/#can-i-use-the-free-engine-in-an-open-source-project
> >
> > That says " However, the Free Engine license does not permit end-user
> > use, except when this use is for further development. For end-user
> > uses, users must have a separate license for the Wolfram Engine."
> > which seems to me to make it crystal clear that it would not be legal
> > to install cocalc-docker (or even Jupyter notebook) and along with
> > Wolfram Engine and use it for any purpose except for development of
> > cocalc or Jupyter itself (i.e., to make sure the UI works).
> > Everything in that FAQ is about "developing a product".
>
> I'm not a lawyer, but in Wolfram's mindset a scientific paper is a
> product, too, no ?
> (Especially assuming it has enough self-promotion hype in it - not
> sure, if this is a joke :-))
>
> Would putting Wolfram Engine on cocalc with a warning saying "read
> their terms of use" be
> too dangerous, risking more than just being slapped with a "cease and
> desist" letter?
I suspect something fairly close to what you suggest would be legal. Namely,
you can create your own CoCalc project, then you download Wolfram
Engine (or any other software) to your computer, then upload it into CoCalc.
Then use it. Our terms of service don't prevent you from uploading your
own binaries and using them. It's not different to you creating
a VM on DigitalOcean or something, and installing Wolfram Engine or any other
software there. People have in the past done exactly the above with
Magma, Maple and the
actual full Mathematica.
-- William
--
William (http://wstein.org)
Emmanuel Charpentier
Dec 2, 2022, 2:34:07 PM12/2/22
to sage-support
William,
Do you think that the same loophole would be applicable to Sagecelll (different structure...) wrt to international law, wrt american law, and with wrt to european law ?
Do you think that the same loophole would be applicable to Sagecelll (different structure...) wrt to international law, wrt american law, and with wrt to european law ?
William Stein
Dec 2, 2022, 3:15:22 PM12/2/22
to sage-s...@googlegroups.com
On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 11:34 AM Emmanuel Charpentier
<emanuel.c...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Do you think that the same loophole would be applicable to Sagecelll (different structure...) wrt to international law, wrt american law, and with wrt to european law ?
>
I'm not sure it's relevant, since you can't install something like
<emanuel.c...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Do you think that the same loophole would be applicable to Sagecelll (different structure...) wrt to international law, wrt american law, and with wrt to european law ?
>
Wolfram Engine into sagecell server as an end user.
--
William (http://wstein.org)
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