If Magma is free, why not use it?

[rjf]

I didn't realize that ..

http://magma.maths.usyd.edu.au/magma/simons_details

Simons was making it free to, oh, most people who might care about using it.

And since it is being paid for by Simons, who needs NSF.

[William Stein]

You of all people should know that this is the "wrong" kind of free...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software

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--
William (http://wstein.org)

[rjf]

If I were interested in getting mathematical results that can be computed

most easily with Magma, then I would use it.  

 I don't have a political issue that it is not open source or GPL.  I use

a lot of software that is (typically) free but probably not open source.

google. windows. adobe stuff.

If someone gave me a free (but patented) useful object, say

a computer or a camera or an automobile,  I doubt that I would

reject it on the grounds that it contained intellectual property

and maybe even trade secrets.

But then I also reject the argument that runs roughly like this .. 

 that only mathematical proofs generated via open-source

programs are acceptable.  

Maybe that's the new difference between pure and applied

math "computational" fans. The applied math person realizes, among other things,

that you will not have a proof that circuits and memory and

compilers etc. are correct anyway.

RJF

On Tuesday, March 31, 2015 at 8:55:01 AM UTC-7, William Stein wrote:

On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 8:18 AM, rjf <fat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I didn't realize that ..
>
> http://magma.maths.usyd.edu.au/magma/simons_details
>
> Simons was making it free to, oh, most people who might care about using it.
>
> And since it is being paid for by Simons, who needs NSF.

You of all people should know that this is the "wrong" kind of free...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software

>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "sage-flame" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

> email to sage-flame+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[William Stein]

On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 3:49 PM, rjf <fat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If I were interested in getting mathematical results that can be computed
> most easily with Magma, then I would use it.
>
> I don't have a political issue that it is not open source or GPL. I use
> a lot of software that is (typically) free but probably not open source.
> google. windows. adobe stuff.

I have major technical issues with Magma not being open source. I
want to do X and magma does X. Then based on doing X, I realize that
I need to do Y, which is closely related. But to do Y one needs to
modify the source code of Magma. That's a problem. I remember
Manjul Bharghava (who just won a Fields Medal, by the way) giving a
talk at the Magma conference in Paris back in 2003, and explaining how
he ran into precisely this problem in a major way with Magma. It was
a strong inspiration for Sage.

> If someone gave me a free (but patented) useful object, say
> a computer or a camera or an automobile, I doubt that I would
> reject it on the grounds that it contained intellectual property
> and maybe even trade secrets.
>
> But then I also reject the argument that runs roughly like this ..
> that only mathematical proofs generated via open-source
> programs are acceptable.

That argument only makes sense in the context of whom? and for what purpose?

> Maybe that's the new difference between pure and applied
> math "computational" fans. The applied math person realizes, among other
> things,
> that you will not have a proof that circuits and memory and
> compilers etc. are correct anyway.
> RJF

I have little interest in formal computer assisted proofs...

William

>
>
> On Tuesday, March 31, 2015 at 8:55:01 AM UTC-7, William Stein wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 8:18 AM, rjf <fat...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I didn't realize that ..
>> >
>> > http://magma.maths.usyd.edu.au/magma/simons_details
>> >
>> > Simons was making it free to, oh, most people who might care about using
>> > it.
>> >
>> > And since it is being paid for by Simons, who needs NSF.
>>
>> You of all people should know that this is the "wrong" kind of free...
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> > Groups
>> > "sage-flame" group.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>> > an

>> > email to sage-flame+...@googlegroups.com.

>> > To post to this group, send email to sage-...@googlegroups.com.
>> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-flame.
>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> William (http://wstein.org)
>

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[rjf]

On Tuesday, March 31, 2015 at 4:01:43 PM UTC-7, William Stein wrote:

On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 3:49 PM, rjf <fat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If I were interested in getting mathematical results that can be computed
> most easily with Magma, then I would use it.
>
>  I don't have a political issue that it is not open source or GPL.  I use
> a lot of software that is (typically) free but probably not open source.
> google. windows. adobe stuff.

I have major technical issues with Magma not being open source.  I
want to do X and magma does X.  Then based on doing X, I realize that
I need to do Y, which is closely related.  But to do Y one needs to
modify the source code of Magma.  That's a problem.

Huh?   So I should not take a free car because -- although it satisfies my

current needs-- I imagine that some time in the future I will have some additional

need -- that to satisfy, I will need a steel foundry, a machine shop, etc

to modify the car. So I should start saving for a foundry, machine shop etc

and not get fooled into just taking the free car.

 

  I remember
Manjul Bharghava (who just won a Fields Medal, by the way) giving a
talk at the Magma conference in Paris back in 2003, and explaining how
he ran into precisely this problem in a major way with Magma.  It was
a strong inspiration for Sage.

 

> If someone gave me a free (but patented) useful object, say
> a computer or a camera or an automobile,  I doubt that I would
> reject it on the grounds that it contained intellectual property
> and maybe even trade secrets.
>
> But then I also reject the argument that runs roughly like this ..
>  that only mathematical proofs generated via open-source
> programs are acceptable.

That argument only makes sense in the context of whom? and for what purpose?

I may have misattributed that then.  I thought it was some Sageist. 

> Maybe that's the new difference between pure and applied
> math "computational" fans. The applied math person realizes, among other
> things,
> that you will not have a proof that circuits and memory and
> compilers etc. are correct anyway.
> RJF

I have little interest in formal computer assisted proofs...

No, I thought that the idea was that if, after long calculation,

a computer system said  X=Y,   that someone would say that

because the computer system was closed source, the result

should be questioned in a way that would not be the case if

it were open source.   Even if there was no realistic prospect of

proving a program of that complexity to be "correct".

RJf

William

>
>
> On Tuesday, March 31, 2015 at 8:55:01 AM UTC-7, William Stein wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 8:18 AM, rjf <fat...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I didn't realize that ..
>> >
>> > http://magma.maths.usyd.edu.au/magma/simons_details
>> >
>> > Simons was making it free to, oh, most people who might care about using
>> > it.
>> >
>> > And since it is being paid for by Simons, who needs NSF.
>>
>> You of all people should know that this is the "wrong" kind of free...
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> > Groups
>> > "sage-flame" group.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>> > an

>> > email to sage-flame+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

>> > To post to this group, send email to sage-...@googlegroups.com.
>> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-flame.
>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> William (http://wstein.org)
>
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[Dima Pasechnik]

On Tuesday, 31 March 2015 16:18:27 UTC+1, rjf wrote:

I didn't realize that ..

http://magma.maths.usyd.edu.au/magma/simons_details

Simons was making it free to, oh, most people who might care about using it.

well, not for people outside USA. And the deal might expire in 1.5 years, anyway...

[rjf]

On Sunday, April 19, 2015 at 2:32:27 AM UTC-7, Dima Pasechnik wrote:

On Tuesday, 31 March 2015 16:18:27 UTC+1, rjf wrote:

I didn't realize that ..

http://magma.maths.usyd.edu.au/magma/simons_details

Simons was making it free to, oh, most people who might care about using it.

well, not for people outside USA.

Not clear to me how this would work if you were "affliliated" with an institution in the US.

Y'know, access via internet?  What if there was a front-end in SageMathCloud to Magma.

Would that be allowed?  It seems to me it would be neat to be able to compare the

Sage-built stuff to the Magma stuff when they were comparable.

 

And the deal might expire in 1.5 years, anyway...

Or it might be continued. 

 

And since it is being paid for by Simons, who needs NSF.

RJF 

[William Stein]

On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 4:36 PM, rjf <fat...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Sunday, April 19, 2015 at 2:32:27 AM UTC-7, Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>>
>> On Tuesday, 31 March 2015 16:18:27 UTC+1, rjf wrote:
>>>
>>> I didn't realize that ..
>>>
>>> http://magma.maths.usyd.edu.au/magma/simons_details
>>>
>>> Simons was making it free to, oh, most people who might care about using
>>> it.
>>
>>
>>
>> well, not for people outside USA.
>
>
> Not clear to me how this would work if you were "affliliated" with an
> institution in the US.
> Y'know, access via internet? What if there was a front-end in SageMathCloud
> to Magma.

I use Magma (legally obtained) via SageMathCloud.

> Would that be allowed?

No, not to just anybody. (I doubt that's what you're asking though.)
In fact, one of the things that influenced me to start Sage was a
stern message from John Cannon (director of Magma) revoking my
permission to use Magma in support of a publicly available web
service. I wrote the first version of this
http://magma.maths.usyd.edu.au/calc/, and also had many tables of
modular forms and other online calculators that used Magma behind the
scenes to compute things.

> It seems to me it would be neat to be able to
> compare the
> Sage-built stuff to the Magma stuff when they were comparable.

It is.

>>
>> And the deal might expire in 1.5 years, anyway...
>
>
> Or it might be continued.

Or it might change. :-)

>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And since it is being paid for by Simons, who needs NSF.
>
>
> RJF
>

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