Re: [sage-release] You don't really think that Sage has failed, do you? (a comment about it)

[William A Stein]

Two remarks:

1. It makes no sense for this post to go to the sage-release mailing
list. It should go to sage-flame (or maybe sage-devel). It
definitely does fit in sage-release.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/sage-flame

2. > I can cite several reasons for the SAGE has failed and all the
reasons can still be corrected:

Failed by what measure? You gave a list of things you don't like
about Sage. I appreciate your list and the effort you put into it very
much of course. Your list suggests I should clarify what I mean by
"a viable alternative to Magma, etc.". By that I primarily mean the
truly deep aspects of Sage relevant to *research mathematicians*,
namely that similar computational algorithms are implemented. E.g.,
if Mathematica implements a function to compute the number of primes
up to x, then so must Sage. I'm not at all talking about what is
needed so that Sage could go from 100K users to several million.
That's a different problem entirely.

> 1 - User Interface. Take a look at Mathematica and Maple and you will see a
> clear user where AFTER you issue a command and you get a ANSwer you have a
> lot of options to use for that kind of type return.
>
> 2 - The great mistake to mix several kinds of variables and commands: if you
> are a beginner, you never know that you are mixing Python with another kind
> of variable or rule/set. Then you go to a forum and the 'expert' say that
> you should read the manual and avoid to mix python with the language X or Y.
>
> 3 - I work in the software industry. I had done several large systems in
> many languages. I tried to start from somewhere (I read the manuals to
> developers) and it is a mess. They use the right tools to document things
> but the examples and the learning curve and the problem of the item 2 make
> your code a mess. If you change something here you must wait someone to
> change a code there and then you can return to work in something back.
>
> 4 - Why the first distros of Unix-like failed? Hard to use and people don't
> want to lose time. Same with Sage. As I said in item 1, you want something
> fast to install and start using and YES, a clean and beautiful interface IS
> important.
>
> 4.1 - Take the example of Microsoft and Ubuntu: You need to install, it is
> easy to use. Mathematica and Maple do the same: they look what type of
> result you got and then offer you several and most used functions. If you
> are learning Calculus (average/beginner use) you just enter the formula the
> same or almost the same as your text-book. If you are dealing with algebraic
> curves, elliptic curves, differential equations, Linear Algebra, it is clear
> what to do. In SAGE, it is a pain. You have the Tutorials and the Thematic
> tutorial, but, again, you can move on without lose severe hours to figure
> what variable type you should use.
>
> 5 - jmol issue. Why not to use OpenJDK or Java? To use it in Linux (any
> distro) you must install java from Oracle site. There is no plugin working
> right now for current version 6.3 , so , you must do one of two things: 1)
> install virtualbox and run in a slow virtual machine (wine, whatever); or 2)
> you should burn a copy of the liveCD/DVD and... configure internet , set
> this, set that.
>
> Don't lose your time trying to say that I'm wrong. If I am wrong, fine. Just
> move one and continue coding for SAGE OR accept it and let's do a road map
> realistic to fix it. Putting it more simple: sage should be understood by
> students and professionals of any science field. Not only by geeks and
> nerds.
>
> 6 - Why to go to Cloud and create stupid not working android app for SAGE?
> Let's FOCUS on the issues why users found it hard to understand.
>
> 7 - Sorry for my bad English, learn Portuguese and we can talk without any
> grammar error.
>
> --
> Luiz Roberto Meier
> --
> The mind, once stretched by a new idea, never returns to its original
> dimensions. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
>
> [...] The energy released by the loss of one phosphate is equivalent to
> heating the enzyme up to 7,000 degrees Fahrenheit. (ATP --> ADP)
> --
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "sage-release" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to sage-release...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to sage-r...@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-release.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



--
William Stein
Professor of Mathematics
University of Washington
http://wstein.org
wst...@uw.edu

[rjf]

The answer as to whether Sage has failed probably depends on who you are and what
you expect from MMMs

r can I speak on behalf of the many users of MMMs

But if they, at renewal time, decide "eh, no need to pay to renew, we can use Sage instead",
then Sage is a viable alternative.

My own institution (i campuses) and its thousands of students, staff, and faculty apparently
do not consider  Sage as a viable alternative to Mathematica, since there is
apparently a renewal of a site license. I doubt that I could convince them that
Sage is just as good.