Re: Proposed Project
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Jason Grout
Jul 24, 2012, 4:25:58 AM7/24/12
to sage-...@googlegroups.com
On 7/24/12 2:57 AM, Kevin Smith wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I'd like to propose a Sage project for all groups interested. The
> project is a version of Sage Math for Nintendo DS hardware. Sage's
> being open-source software means the project may only be developed as a
> rom. The hardware is more than capable for sage, and more suited for
> visualization of mathematics than any hardware I know of. The hardware
> consists of two screens, a touch screen with a stylus and a larger
> screen above it, and buttons for commands. In the way I am imagining
> the software working, a user would use a stylus to write whatever
> mathematics is of interest on the touchscreen and receive a visual
> output on the screen above it. The hardware is wonderfully portable,
> which is partly why it appeals to me, as I think of various mathematical
> forms when out of doors walking and etc. I doubt I am
> characteristically alone in this respect. I understand sage is used for
> more than visualization of mathematics, yet materially speaking a GUI is
> what sage offers that a thinking person does not already have. In other
> words, visualization of mathematics is a most significant component
> because all utilization of sage requires a visualization of math, a GUI.
> Now, please understand I am very unfamiliar with code and programming.
> I feel my having significant presence with this project may not support
> an honest endeavour for quality. That said, my reasons for posting are
> to share a proposal with a group who may be interested and to share a
> willingness to help in whatever fashion does support a quality project
> as this one.
> Thanks!
That does sound interesting. If these are the specs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_DS#Technical_specifications
then I think a first step would be to get Python running on the system.
If you had that, then you'd hopefully have sympy, which would already
give you some mathematics capabilities. It looks like someone has
already done something with python: https://www.develer.com/trac/dspython/
Please post updates! I can't help more tangibly, but it would be really
fun to hear of progress.
Thanks,
Jason
> Hello,
>
> I'd like to propose a Sage project for all groups interested. The
> project is a version of Sage Math for Nintendo DS hardware. Sage's
> being open-source software means the project may only be developed as a
> rom. The hardware is more than capable for sage, and more suited for
> visualization of mathematics than any hardware I know of. The hardware
> consists of two screens, a touch screen with a stylus and a larger
> screen above it, and buttons for commands. In the way I am imagining
> the software working, a user would use a stylus to write whatever
> mathematics is of interest on the touchscreen and receive a visual
> output on the screen above it. The hardware is wonderfully portable,
> which is partly why it appeals to me, as I think of various mathematical
> forms when out of doors walking and etc. I doubt I am
> characteristically alone in this respect. I understand sage is used for
> more than visualization of mathematics, yet materially speaking a GUI is
> what sage offers that a thinking person does not already have. In other
> words, visualization of mathematics is a most significant component
> because all utilization of sage requires a visualization of math, a GUI.
> Now, please understand I am very unfamiliar with code and programming.
> I feel my having significant presence with this project may not support
> an honest endeavour for quality. That said, my reasons for posting are
> to share a proposal with a group who may be interested and to share a
> willingness to help in whatever fashion does support a quality project
> as this one.
> Thanks!
That does sound interesting. If these are the specs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_DS#Technical_specifications
then I think a first step would be to get Python running on the system.
If you had that, then you'd hopefully have sympy, which would already
give you some mathematics capabilities. It looks like someone has
already done something with python: https://www.develer.com/trac/dspython/
Please post updates! I can't help more tangibly, but it would be really
fun to hear of progress.
Thanks,
Jason
Jason Ekstrand
Jul 24, 2012, 10:13:09 AM7/24/12
to sage-...@googlegroups.com
That does sound interesting. However, I'm concerned that the DS won't
be able to handle it entirely onboard. Looking at the specs, the DS
only has 4M of ram (with a possible extension of unknown size). If one
went for the 3DS (which has significantly higher specs), you might be
able to run a light version of sage. The other option would be to use
the onboard WiFi to connect to a server that does all the actual
number-crunching and simply display stuff on the DS. Then the big
issue would simply be the math handwriting detection (I say simply,
but it's not that simple).
Sounds like an interesting project, but I don't know that I can help
much either (not having a DS and all)
-- Jason E
be able to handle it entirely onboard. Looking at the specs, the DS
only has 4M of ram (with a possible extension of unknown size). If one
went for the 3DS (which has significantly higher specs), you might be
able to run a light version of sage. The other option would be to use
the onboard WiFi to connect to a server that does all the actual
number-crunching and simply display stuff on the DS. Then the big
issue would simply be the math handwriting detection (I say simply,
but it's not that simple).
Sounds like an interesting project, but I don't know that I can help
much either (not having a DS and all)
-- Jason E
Julien Puydt
Jul 24, 2012, 1:20:22 PM7/24/12
to sage-...@googlegroups.com
Le 24/07/2012 16:13, Jason Ekstrand a �crit :
what I remember, recognizing from a picture is indeed very very
difficult -- basically because mathematics aren't just line-based and
forward-going (fractions, sub and sup text, accents... a large variety
of fonts). I also remember that if you don't have just the picture but
the writing movement itself, then things are much simpler.
Snark on #sagemath
> Then the big
> issue would simply be the math handwriting detection (I say simply,
> but it's not that simple).
I attended a talk about OCR for mathematics a few years ago, and from
> issue would simply be the math handwriting detection (I say simply,
> but it's not that simple).
what I remember, recognizing from a picture is indeed very very
difficult -- basically because mathematics aren't just line-based and
forward-going (fractions, sub and sup text, accents... a large variety
of fonts). I also remember that if you don't have just the picture but
the writing movement itself, then things are much simpler.
Snark on #sagemath
Christopher Swenson
Jul 24, 2012, 2:24:13 PM7/24/12
to sage-...@googlegroups.com
Detexify does some neat mathematics handwriting recognition:
--
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rjf
Jul 24, 2012, 3:05:18 PM7/24/12
to sage-...@googlegroups.com, ch...@caswenson.com
Frankly, this sounds like a waste of time, and the original poster admits he doesn't have a clue.
These devices cost $150 or more in US, according to wikipedia. For under $250 you can buy
a low-end laptop that would be fine to run Sage.
The idea that existing technology for handwriting of math is a substitute for a keyboard, or that deTexify would be
of much help requires a substantial misunderstanding of the needed technology.
I believe it is easier to get VOICE input of math than handwriting, and perfecting that
in a Sage context might be a fun project. But don't complicate your life by programming
on (or for) a toy.
RJF
PS. If you can't use google to find references and are truly interested and have some
skills, feel free to email questions about voice etc.
These devices cost $150 or more in US, according to wikipedia. For under $250 you can buy
a low-end laptop that would be fine to run Sage.
The idea that existing technology for handwriting of math is a substitute for a keyboard, or that deTexify would be
of much help requires a substantial misunderstanding of the needed technology.
I believe it is easier to get VOICE input of math than handwriting, and perfecting that
in a Sage context might be a fun project. But don't complicate your life by programming
on (or for) a toy.
RJF
PS. If you can't use google to find references and are truly interested and have some
skills, feel free to email questions about voice etc.
kcrisman
Jul 24, 2012, 3:26:41 PM7/24/12
to sage-...@googlegroups.com, ch...@caswenson.com
On Tuesday, July 24, 2012 3:05:18 PM UTC-4, rjf wrote:
Frankly, this sounds like a waste of time, and the original poster admits he doesn't have a clue.
These devices cost $150 or more in US, according to wikipedia. For under $250 you can buy
a low-end laptop that would be fine to run Sage.
The idea that existing technology for handwriting of math is a substitute for a keyboard, or that deTexify would be
of much help requires a substantial misunderstanding of the needed technology.
I believe it is easier to get VOICE input of math than handwriting, and perfecting that
in a Sage context might be a fun project. But don't complicate your life by programming
on (or for) a toy.
RJF
PS. If you can't use google to find references and are truly interested and have some
skills, feel free to email questions about voice etc.
I assume you've seen this before?
It seems like their goal is, long-term, to have that sort of interaction. Presumably this would be no harder with Maxima or anything else...
kcrisman
Jul 24, 2012, 3:28:17 PM7/24/12
to sage-...@googlegroups.com
I believe it is easier to get VOICE input of math than handwriting, and perfecting that
in a Sage context might be a fun project. But don't complicate your life by programming
on (or for) a toy.
RJF
PS. If you can't use google to find references and are truly interested and have some
skills, feel free to email questions about voice etc.I assume you've seen this before?It seems like their goal is, long-term, to have that sort of interaction. Presumably this would be no harder with Maxima or anything else...
Sorry if it doesn't seem immediately relevant, buried in their documents somewhere is stuff about voice activation.
William Stein
Jul 24, 2012, 3:28:56 PM7/24/12
to sage-...@googlegroups.com, ch...@caswenson.com
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 12:05 PM, rjf <fat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Frankly, this sounds like a waste of time, and the original poster admits he
> doesn't have a clue.
>
> These devices cost $150 or more in US, according to wikipedia. For under
> $250 you can buy
> a low-end laptop that would be fine to run Sage.
>
> The idea that existing technology for handwriting of math is a substitute
> for a keyboard, or that deTexify would be
> of much help requires a substantial misunderstanding of the needed
> technology.
>
> I believe it is easier to get VOICE input of math than handwriting, and
> perfecting that
> in a Sage context might be a fun project. But don't complicate your life by
> programming
> on (or for) a toy.
>
> RJF
> PS. If you can't use google to find references and are truly interested and
I googled the original poster ("Kevin Smith") and found this:
> Frankly, this sounds like a waste of time, and the original poster admits he
> doesn't have a clue.
>
> These devices cost $150 or more in US, according to wikipedia. For under
> $250 you can buy
> a low-end laptop that would be fine to run Sage.
>
> The idea that existing technology for handwriting of math is a substitute
> for a keyboard, or that deTexify would be
> of much help requires a substantial misunderstanding of the needed
> technology.
>
> I believe it is easier to get VOICE input of math than handwriting, and
> perfecting that
> in a Sage context might be a fun project. But don't complicate your life by
> programming
> on (or for) a toy.
>
> RJF
> PS. If you can't use google to find references and are truly interested and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Smith
It seems that he might be Silent Bob
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Bob), so I'm guessing he might
not be interested in VOICE input.
William
> have some
> skills, feel free to email questions about voice etc.
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, July 24, 2012 11:24:13 AM UTC-7, Christopher Swenson wrote:
>>
>> Detexify does some neat mathematics handwriting recognition:
>>
>> http://detexify.kirelabs.org/classify.html
>>
>> --Christopher
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 1:20 PM, Julien Puydt <julien...@laposte.net>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Le 24/07/2012 16:13, Jason Ekstrand a écrit :
>>>
>>>> Then the big
>>>> issue would simply be the math handwriting detection (I say simply,
>>>> but it's not that simple).
>>>
>>>
>>> I attended a talk about OCR for mathematics a few years ago, and from
>>> what I remember, recognizing from a picture is indeed very very difficult --
>>> basically because mathematics aren't just line-based and forward-going
>>> (fractions, sub and sup text, accents... a large variety of fonts). I also
>>> remember that if you don't have just the picture but the writing movement
>>> itself, then things are much simpler.
>>>
>>> Snark on #sagemath
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> --
>>> To post to this group, send an email to sage-...@googlegroups.com
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to
>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
>>> URL: http://www.sagemath.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
>>> URL: http://www.sagemath.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
> --
> --
> To post to this group, send an email to sage-...@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to
> sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com
> --
> To post to this group, send an email to sage-...@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
> URL: http://www.sagemath.org
>
>
>
--
> http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
> URL: http://www.sagemath.org
>
>
>
William Stein
Professor of Mathematics
University of Washington
http://wstein.org
Julien Puydt
Jul 24, 2012, 4:33:03 PM7/24/12
to sage-...@googlegroups.com
Le 24/07/2012 21:28, William Stein a �crit :
and "Smith" very common?
Snark on #sagemath
> I googled the original poster ("Kevin Smith") and found this:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Smith
>
> It seems that he might be Silent Bob
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Bob), so I'm guessing he might
> not be interested in VOICE input.
I'm not a native english speaker, but isn't the combination of "Kevin"
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Smith
>
> It seems that he might be Silent Bob
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Bob), so I'm guessing he might
> not be interested in VOICE input.
and "Smith" very common?
Snark on #sagemath
William Stein
Jul 24, 2012, 8:24:07 PM7/24/12
to sage-...@googlegroups.com
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 1:33 PM, Julien Puydt <julien...@laposte.net> wrote:
-- William
>
>
> Snark on #sagemath
>
> --
> --
> To post to this group, send an email to sage-...@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to
> sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
> URL: http://www.sagemath.org
>
>
>
--
> Le 24/07/2012 21:28, William Stein a écrit :
>
>> I googled the original poster ("Kevin Smith") and found this:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Smith
>>
>> It seems that he might be Silent Bob
>> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Bob), so I'm guessing he might
>> not be interested in VOICE input.
>
>
> I'm not a native english speaker, but isn't the combination of "Kevin" and
> "Smith" very common?
Sorry, I should have put <joke> tags around my post.
>
>> I googled the original poster ("Kevin Smith") and found this:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Smith
>>
>> It seems that he might be Silent Bob
>> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Bob), so I'm guessing he might
>> not be interested in VOICE input.
>
>
> I'm not a native english speaker, but isn't the combination of "Kevin" and
> "Smith" very common?
-- William
>
>
> Snark on #sagemath
>
> --
> --
> To post to this group, send an email to sage-...@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to
> sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
> URL: http://www.sagemath.org
>
>
>
--
John Cremona
Jul 25, 2012, 4:31:29 AM7/25/12
to sage-...@googlegroups.com
On 25 July 2012 01:24, William Stein <wst...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 1:33 PM, Julien Puydt <julien...@laposte.net> wrote:
>> Le 24/07/2012 21:28, William Stein a écrit :
>>
>>> I googled the original poster ("Kevin Smith") and found this:
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Smith
>>>
>>> It seems that he might be Silent Bob
>>> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Bob), so I'm guessing he might
>>> not be interested in VOICE input.
>>
>>
>> I'm not a native english speaker, but isn't the combination of "Kevin" and
>> "Smith" very common?
>
> Sorry, I should have put <joke> tags around my post.
Some of us realised. Not all the John Cremona's you'll find with
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 1:33 PM, Julien Puydt <julien...@laposte.net> wrote:
>> Le 24/07/2012 21:28, William Stein a écrit :
>>
>>> I googled the original poster ("Kevin Smith") and found this:
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Smith
>>>
>>> It seems that he might be Silent Bob
>>> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Bob), so I'm guessing he might
>>> not be interested in VOICE input.
>>
>>
>> I'm not a native english speaker, but isn't the combination of "Kevin" and
>> "Smith" very common?
>
> Sorry, I should have put <joke> tags around my post.
Google are me either (especially not this one:
http://johncremona.com/). ;)
John
>
> -- William
>
Javier López Peña
Jul 25, 2012, 4:46:38 AM7/25/12
to sage-...@googlegroups.com
You think you have it bad? Look at who the other Javier López Peña is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Javier_L%C3%B3pez_Pe%C3%B1a
when this guy hit the news I received hate mail on a daily basis for almost a year :-/
when this guy hit the news I received hate mail on a daily basis for almost a year :-/
kcrisman
Jul 25, 2012, 9:18:11 AM7/25/12
to sage-...@googlegroups.com
I am quite confident in saying I am the only person in the world with my name. Not the only kcrisman - I get a fair amount of misdirected mail - but the combination is unique.
In fact, until Google started ignoring quotation marks and giving pages that didn't have the words involved, there was only one hit that my name without quotes got which *wasn't* in the one with quotes - misspellings of the names of two European officials involved in the nascent Republic of Macedonia in the mid-90's, Carl-Dieter Spranger and Patrick Chrismant.
- kcrisman
Andrea Lazzarotto
Jul 25, 2012, 9:30:22 AM7/25/12
to sage-...@googlegroups.com
If you Google my name in the Italian version of Google, you will surely find some news about a guy with my name who has been murdered in 2007.
Anyway, IMHO a Nintendo DS will never be able to perform Sage computations, but it may be nice to implement the web interface. :)
--
Andrea Lazzarotto - http://andrealazzarotto.com
Anyway, IMHO a Nintendo DS will never be able to perform Sage computations, but it may be nice to implement the web interface. :)
--
Andrea Lazzarotto - http://andrealazzarotto.com
Jason Grout
Jul 25, 2012, 10:05:16 AM7/25/12
to sage-...@googlegroups.com
On 7/25/12 8:30 AM, Andrea Lazzarotto wrote:
> Anyway, IMHO a Nintendo DS will never be able to perform Sage
> computations, but it may be nice to implement the web interface. :)
Yes, but apparently there is a python for Nintendo DS. I think it is
> Anyway, IMHO a Nintendo DS will never be able to perform Sage
> computations, but it may be nice to implement the web interface. :)
still an interesting question whether sympy might be a useful backend
for some calculations.
I think probably handwriting recognition is beyond our capabilities at
this point.
Thanks,
Jason
rjf
Jul 25, 2012, 3:19:54 PM7/25/12
to sage-...@googlegroups.com
On Tuesday, July 24, 2012 12:28:17 PM UTC-7, kcrisman wrote:
....
I assume you've seen this before?
Actually I had not seen the recent work there.
It seems like their goal is, long-term, to have that sort of interaction.
Not really.
They are more interested in generative grammar: take a semantic representation and render it
into several different natural languages.
What would be needed for input from the user is a grammar AND A RECOGNIZER FOR THAT SPOKEN LANGUAGE
that encompasses (say) Sage.
A grammar for naturally spoken mathematics fragments can be constructed, and with error correction
facilities might be useful. A complete grammar that handles all input is probably unattainable.
Getting the phonemes into the right lexemes for math is difficult, and so far as I know, there is no
free open-source program that is even close to handling this problem. Even proprietary software
doesn't do all that well without substantial diddling.
They are more interested in generative grammar: take a semantic representation and render it
into several different natural languages.
What would be needed for input from the user is a grammar AND A RECOGNIZER FOR THAT SPOKEN LANGUAGE
that encompasses (say) Sage.
A grammar for naturally spoken mathematics fragments can be constructed, and with error correction
facilities might be useful. A complete grammar that handles all input is probably unattainable.
Getting the phonemes into the right lexemes for math is difficult, and so far as I know, there is no
free open-source program that is even close to handling this problem. Even proprietary software
doesn't do all that well without substantial diddling.
Presumably this would be no harder with Maxima or anything else...
It would presumably be somewhat easier. One would not have to parse spoken python, for example.
Sorry if it doesn't seem immediately relevant, buried in their documents somewhere is stuff about voice activation.
I didn't spot that.
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