Optional packages in conda

[mmarco]

Now that the recommended way to install sage is through conda (which makes it way easy that compiling from source), I am having the problem with installing optional packages.

Some (like sirocco)  are already in conda-forge, so it is easy to install them, but in particular, I am being unable to install Tides and Kenzo.

Which should be the way to install them? Should we create packages in conda forge for them?

[Isuru Fernando]

Yes, having them in conda-forge is the recommended way.

Isuru

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[mmarco]

How is the process to add a package to conda-forge?

[mmarco]

Also, it might require changes in sage, to look for the corresponding files in the right place

[Isuru Fernando]

See https://github.com/conda-forge/staged-recipes/#getting-started for some instructions.

You can also ask your favourite AI model to give you the code for it.

Isuru

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/31bcb372-a978-444f-9c92-674057778fc3n%40googlegroups.com.

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2026 at 10:01 AM mmarco <miguel....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Also, it might require changes in sage, to look for the corresponding files in the right place

if one uses sage the distro, it will also need adding spkg-configure.m4 files.
But that's the only needed change, as these packages are not requiring
any extension modules,
and are loaded anyway, with runtime detection of their availability.

> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/31bcb372-a978-444f-9c92-674057778fc3n%40googlegroups.com.

[mmarco]

I meant that, for example, kenzo looks at the variable KENZO_FAS, which I think is not properly set when you install sage in conda-forge.  Tides depends on SAGE_LOCAL, which again, is not set in the conda-forge install. Would adding skpg-configure.m4 be enough to handle this?

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2026 at 11:17 AM mmarco <miguel....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I meant that, for example, kenzo looks at the variable KENZO_FAS, which I think is not properly set when you install sage in conda-forge. Tides depends on SAGE_LOCAL, which again, is not set in the conda-forge install. Would adding skpg-configure.m4 be enough to handle this?

That's sort of a typical sage-distro insanity - doing settings for
Kenzo in the config of ecl
(sorry, Michael O. :-))
build/pkgs/ecl/spkg-configure.m4: AC_SUBST(SAGE_KENZO_FAS,
['${prefix}'/lib/ecl/kenzo.fas])

By right in should be in `build/pkgs/kenzo/spkg-configure.m4`

A quick hack is to get rid of all that KENZO_FAS spaghetti:
--- a/src/sage/features/kenzo.py
+++ b/src/sage/features/kenzo.py
@@ -62,11 +62,7 @@ class Kenzo(Feature):
ecl_eval("(setf *standard-output* *dev-null*)")

try:
- from sage.env import KENZO_FAS
- if KENZO_FAS:
- ecl_eval("(require :kenzo \"{}\")".format(KENZO_FAS))
- else:
- ecl_eval("(require :kenzo)")
+ ecl_eval("(require :kenzo)")

except RuntimeError:
return FeatureTestResult(self, False, reason="Unable to
make ECL require kenzo")
diff --git a/src/sage/interfaces/kenzo.py b/src/sage/interfaces/kenzo.py
index 8a90f0c424b..e1b3afde5d6 100644
--- a/src/sage/interfaces/kenzo.py
+++ b/src/sage/interfaces/kenzo.py
@@ -104,11 +104,7 @@ kenzo_names = ['add',
# example __sphere__ is defined as EclObject("sphere"). Hyphens
# are replaced with underscores to get valid Python identifiers.
if Kenzo().is_present():
- from sage.env import KENZO_FAS
- if KENZO_FAS:
- ecl_eval("(require :kenzo \"{}\")".format(KENZO_FAS))
- else:
- ecl_eval("(require :kenzo)")
+ ecl_eval("(require :kenzo)")

ecl_eval("(in-package :cat)")
ecl_eval("(setf *HOMOLOGY-VERBOSE* nil)")

and symlink kenzo.fas to where ecl finds its .fas files, namely, to
what's being output by

./sage --ecl -eval "(princ (SI:GET-LIBRARY-PATHNAME))" -eval "(quit)"

That is,

ln -s `pwd`/local/lib/ecl/kenzo.fas $(./sage --ecl -eval "(princ
(SI:GET-LIBRARY-PATHNAME))" -eval "(quit)")


------------------

As a matter of fact, ecl can be configured to search for .fas files in
particular directories.
This something we discussed (and discussed, and discussed... :-)) with upstream
on https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/-/work_items/846
I just submitted a fix along these lines to Homebrew.
https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew-core/pull/290044
Once it's in, Homebrew tap "dimpase/tap/maxima-ecl" will work together with ecl,
(so that "(require :maxima)" works out of the box)

I'll write a Kenzo Homebrew formula, it's shouldn't be hard, modelling
after dimpase/tap/maxima-ecl
(i.e. https://github.com/dimpase/homebrew-tap/blob/main/Formula/m/maxima-ecl.rb)


HTH
Dima


Dima

> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/35f5f564-f36e-4f59-84c7-c4b7570ab17an%40googlegroups.com.

[mmarco]

The KENZO_FAS code is in fact broken:

```

sage: from sage.env import KENZO_FAS
sage: KENZO_FAS
"'/home/mmarco/sage/local/var/lib/sage/venv-python3.14'/lib/ecl/kenzo.fas"

```

Trying to load it in ecl fails because of the inserted '

```

sage: from sage.libs.ecl import ecl_eval
sage: ecl_eval("(require :kenzo \"{}\")".format(KENZO_FAS))
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
RuntimeError                              Traceback (most recent call last)
Cell In[4], line 1
----> 1 ecl_eval("(require :kenzo \"{}\")".format(KENZO_FAS))

File sage/libs/ecl.pyx:1334, in sage.libs.ecl.ecl_eval()
-> 1334 'Could not get source, probably due dynamically evaluated source code.'

File sage/libs/ecl.pyx:1361, in sage.libs.ecl.ecl_eval()
-> 1361 'Could not get source, probably due dynamically evaluated source code.'

File sage/libs/ecl.pyx:1357, in sage.libs.ecl.ecl_eval()
-> 1357 'Could not get source, probably due dynamically evaluated source code.'

File sage/libs/ecl.pyx:324, in sage.libs.ecl.ecl_safe_eval()
--> 324 'Could not get source, probably due dynamically evaluated source code.'

RuntimeError: ECL says: Cannot open #P"/home/mmarco/sage/'/home/mmarco/sage/local/var/lib/sage/venv-python3.14'/lib/ecl/kenzo.fas".
C library error: No such file or directory
while evaluating (require :kenzo "'/home/mmarco/sage/local/var/lib/sage/venv-python3.14'/lib/ecl/kenzo.fas")

```

But loading directly kenzo fails too:

```

sage: ecl_eval("(require :kenzo)")
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
RuntimeError                              Traceback (most recent call last)
Cell In[5], line 1
----> 1 ecl_eval("(require :kenzo)")

File sage/libs/ecl.pyx:1334, in sage.libs.ecl.ecl_eval()
-> 1334 'Could not get source, probably due dynamically evaluated source code.'

File sage/libs/ecl.pyx:1361, in sage.libs.ecl.ecl_eval()
-> 1361 'Could not get source, probably due dynamically evaluated source code.'

File sage/libs/ecl.pyx:1357, in sage.libs.ecl.ecl_eval()
-> 1357 'Could not get source, probably due dynamically evaluated source code.'

File sage/libs/ecl.pyx:324, in sage.libs.ecl.ecl_safe_eval()
--> 324 'Could not get source, probably due dynamically evaluated source code.'

RuntimeError: ECL says: Module error: Don't know how to REQUIRE KENZO.
while evaluating (require :kenzo)

```

But it is even worse: the directory that is supposed to look at dosn't even exist:

````

sage: ecl_eval("(require :kenzo \"{}\")".format(KENZO_FAS.replace("'","")))
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
RuntimeError                              Traceback (most recent call last)
Cell In[6], line 1
----> 1 ecl_eval("(require :kenzo \"{}\")".format(KENZO_FAS.replace("'","")))

File sage/libs/ecl.pyx:1334, in sage.libs.ecl.ecl_eval()
-> 1334 'Could not get source, probably due dynamically evaluated source code.'

File sage/libs/ecl.pyx:1361, in sage.libs.ecl.ecl_eval()
-> 1361 'Could not get source, probably due dynamically evaluated source code.'

File sage/libs/ecl.pyx:1357, in sage.libs.ecl.ecl_eval()
-> 1357 'Could not get source, probably due dynamically evaluated source code.'

File sage/libs/ecl.pyx:324, in sage.libs.ecl.ecl_safe_eval()
--> 324 'Could not get source, probably due dynamically evaluated source code.'

RuntimeError: ECL says: Cannot open #P"/home/mmarco/sage/local/var/lib/sage/venv-python3.14/lib/ecl/kenzo.fas".
C library error: No such file or directory
while evaluating (require :kenzo "/home/mmarco/sage/local/var/lib/sage/venv-python3.14/lib/ecl/kenzo.fas")```

```

The right one is just `local/lib/ecl` (not geting in the venv).

```

sage: ecl_eval('(require :kenzo "/home/mmarco/sage/local/lib/ecl/kenzo.fas")')
;;; Loading #P"/home/mmarco/sage/local/lib/ecl/kenzo.fas"
<ECL: ("finite-spaces-point-reductions" "finite-spaces-facets" "finite-spaces-hregularization" "finite-spaces-homology-dvf" "finite-spaces-homology" "finite-spaces-changes" "finite-spaces-subdivisions" "finite-
spaces-class" "pushout" "suspension2" ...)>

```

[Dima Pasechnik]

> C library error: No such file or directory
> while evaluating (require :kenzo "'/home/mmarco/sage/local/var/lib/sage/venv-python3.14'/lib/ecl/kenzo.fas")

it's a malformed path, a spurious pair of "'"'s

[Nils Bruin]

Perhaps due to

https://github.com/sagemath/sage/blob/81bbb448a101400d3ac58ffe536dbbb2cac3f950/src/sage/meson.build#L21

or

https://github.com/sagemath/sage/blob/81bbb448a101400d3ac58ffe536dbbb2cac3f950/build/pkgs/ecl/spkg-configure.m4#L40

There are extra ' ' there that can probably be removed (I'm not an expert in m4 or meson though, so someone more informed should check)

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Sun, Jun 28, 2026 at 11:34 PM Nils Bruin <nbr...@sfu.ca> wrote:
>
> Perhaps due to
>
> https://github.com/sagemath/sage/blob/81bbb448a101400d3ac58ffe536dbbb2cac3f950/src/sage/meson.build#L21
>
> or
>
> https://github.com/sagemath/sage/blob/81bbb448a101400d3ac58ffe536dbbb2cac3f950/build/pkgs/ecl/spkg-configure.m4#L40
>
> There are extra ' ' there that can probably be removed (I'm not an expert in m4 or meson though, so someone more informed should check)

try

--- a/src/sage/meson.build
+++ b/src/sage/meson.build
@@ -18,7 +18,7 @@ if not fs.exists(datadir / 'cremona')
)
endif
# Kenzo cannot yet be provided by the system, so we always use the
SAGE_LOCAL path for now.
-conf_data.set('SAGE_KENZO_FAS', '\'${prefix}\'/lib/ecl/kenzo.fas')
+conf_data.set('SAGE_KENZO_FAS', '${prefix}/lib/ecl/kenzo.fas')
# It can be found, so we don't have to set anything here:
conf_data.set('NTL_INCDIR', '')
conf_data.set('NTL_LIBDIR', '')


I don't think SAGE_KENZO_FAS settings in
build/pkgs/ecl/spkg-configure.m4 actually have any effect.

Dima

> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/f38aef32-c98b-41d9-8c97-5b8b47118a9an%40googlegroups.com.

[mmarco]

${prefix} will be the directory inside the venv, right? That is not where the kenzo.fas file is copied when installing the kenzo package

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Mon, Jun 29, 2026 at 4:27 AM mmarco <miguel....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ${prefix} will be the directory inside the venv, right?

No, that's "prefix", not "$prefix".
The latter is something to be dealt with in src/sage/config.py.in:

KENZO_FAS = "@SAGE_KENZO_FAS@".replace("${prefix}", SAGE_LOCAL)

which becomes

KENZO_FAS = "'${prefix}'/lib/ecl/kenzo.fas".replace("${prefix}", SAGE_LOCAL)

in build/sage-distro/src/sage/config.py

> That is not where the kenzo.fas file is copied when installing the kenzo package

kenzo.fas is installed into local/lib/ecl/

This is supposed to be set correctly by src/sage/config.py


Now, we can actually see what's going on:

KENZO_FAS = "'${prefix}'/lib/ecl/kenzo.fas".replace("${prefix}", SAGE_LOCAL)
sage: KENZO_FAS
"'/Users/dima/software/sage-distro/local'/lib/ecl/kenzo.fas"

sage: from sage.libs.ecl import ecl_eval

sage: ecl_eval('(require :kenzo '+'"'+KENZO_FAS+'")')

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
RuntimeError Traceback (most recent call last)

Cell In[40], line 1
----> 1 ecl_eval('(require :kenzo '+'"'+KENZO_FAS+'")')

File sage/libs/ecl.pyx:1334, in sage.libs.ecl.ecl_eval()
-> 1334 'Could not get source, probably due dynamically evaluated source code.'

File sage/libs/ecl.pyx:1361, in sage.libs.ecl.ecl_eval()
-> 1361 'Could not get source, probably due dynamically evaluated source code.'

File sage/libs/ecl.pyx:1357, in sage.libs.ecl.ecl_eval()
-> 1357 'Could not get source, probably due dynamically evaluated source code.'

File sage/libs/ecl.pyx:324, in sage.libs.ecl.ecl_safe_eval()
--> 324 'Could not get source, probably due dynamically evaluated source code.'

RuntimeError: ECL says: Cannot open
#P"/Users/dima/software/sage-distro/'/Users/dima/software/sage-distro/local'/lib/ecl/kenzo.fas".

C library error: No such file or directory
while evaluating (require :kenzo

"'/Users/dima/software/sage-distro/local'/lib/ecl/kenzo.fas")


Now, let's remove these extra "'":

sage: KENZO_FAS = "${prefix}/lib/ecl/kenzo.fas".replace("${prefix}", SAGE_LOCAL)
sage: KENZO_FAS
'/Users/dima/software/sage-distro/local/lib/ecl/kenzo.fas'
sage: ecl_eval('(require :kenzo '+'"'+KENZO_FAS+'")')
;;; Loading #P"/Users/dima/software/sage-distro/local/lib/ecl/kenzo.fas"
<ECL: NIL>

It works!

So it appears that my diagnosis - spurious "'"-s - was right all along.

Dima

> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/5fba4910-feb3-4383-8d00-180810d8b5f0n%40googlegroups.com.

[Dima Pasechnik]

Now I'm trying to produce a fix.
Can anyone please explain why the following is happening in sage distro:

sage: SAGE_LOCAL
'/Users/dima/software/sage-distro/local'
sage: from sage.config import SAGE_LOCAL
sage: SAGE_LOCAL
'/Users/dima/software/sage-distro/local/var/lib/sage/venv-python3.14'
sage:

Why does SAGE_LOCAL have two totally different meanings?
How does it make any sense?

Dima

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 2026-06-29 11:45:18, Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>
> Why does SAGE_LOCAL have two totally different meanings?
> How does it make any sense?

I don't know about making sense, but sage.env imports sage.config, and
then re-declares SAGE_LOCAL = var("SAGE_LOCAL"). That eventually
checks sage.config, but allows the environment to override it.

[Dima Pasechnik]

rewritting of {prefix} in KENZO_FAS happens in sage.config, after redefining SAGE_LOCAL to a meaningless value.

Yes, one can spaghetti-code around it,
but it's concerning.


>

[Tobia...@gmx.de]

Yes, kenzo and tides don't have a built-time detection in the meson.build files. This would need to be done after those packages are on conda-forge. For kenzo, this could be modeled on https://github.com/sagemath/sage/blob/81bbb448a101400d3ac58ffe536dbbb2cac3f950/src/sage/libs/meson.build#L18-L74.

[mmarco]

About that, I tried to create recipes for them in conda-forge:

https://github.com/conda-forge/staged-recipes/pull/33983

https://github.com/conda-forge/staged-recipes/pull/33973

[Dima Pasechnik]

should be fixed by https://github.com/sagemath/sage/pull/42461

On Mon, Jun 29, 2026 at 5:07 PM Dima Pasechnik <dim...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> What does it have to do with conda-forge?
> A kenzo package on conda can simply install kenzo.fas into the corresponding directory of ecl,
> like it's done for maxima (and maxima.fas).
>
> Kenzo is broken on sage-distro.