Fwd: Fwd: [sage-forum] String-integer coercion
William Stein
I'm doing a redesign of the SAGE website to target SAGE much
more at end users rather than developers (I think the tipping
point has now arrived, since about 500 people downloaded
SAGE in the last two weeks...) Anyways, your comments
on the mockup here would be welcome:
http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/was/rc/web/index.html
(Note that links to actual downloads etc might not work.)
My questions are mainly:
(1) do the pages look:
-- visually appealing
-- simple and clean
-- convey all the necessary information (i.e., I'm not missing
key things that used to be there)
(2) does the text on the front page reasonably convey what
SAGE is to somebody who say has never heard of programs
like GAP and PARI, and just wants to know if SAGE might
be for them?
(3) Does the front page text seem to much like sales talk?
Compared to Maple or Mathematica's web pages it's nothing
(those pages are gut-wrenchingly obnoxious),
but it might still be too much.
(4) I've purposely went from clean and simple, even more so
than before, instead of say tricky drop downs css menus, etc.,
Thanks,
William
Timothy Clemans
don't like the two sets of links. I can get a pure css version of it
up soon. SAGE is not an alternative to Mathematica and Maple yet. It
does not run under Windows natively so it is best to say that it runs
under Cygwin well. Link behavior on hover should change. Personally do
not repeat any links. Where you are saying calculus, elementary to
very advanced number theory link to pages describing what SAGE does in
those areas. Note you don't need links to pics when pic shown since
right click view pic shows pic in full size. You need a good summary
at the top. I really dislike on the documentation page where you have
some links on the left and right very distracting.
David Harvey
On May 6, 2007, at 3:37 AM, William Stein wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm doing a redesign of the SAGE website to target SAGE much
> more at end users rather than developers (I think the tipping
> point has now arrived, since about 500 people downloaded
> SAGE in the last two weeks...) Anyways, your comments
> on the mockup here would be welcome:
I think it's generally a big improvement.
> http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/was/rc/web/index.html
> (Note that links to actual downloads etc might not work.)
> My questions are mainly:
> (1) do the pages look:
> -- visually appealing
> -- simple and clean
Yes.
> -- convey all the necessary information (i.e., I'm not missing
> key things that used to be there)
I reckon the "Use SAGE online" or "Live Tutorial" should somehow be
more prominent. If I had to pick something on the middle four links
to change, I would change "Developers" to "Live Tutorial". If you're
aiming to suck in the general audience, it's the tutorial. Potential
developers are probably better at picking out the links they need
from the bar at the top without having it shoved down their throat.
(But it's not a big deal.)
I'm not sure I like the slogan "Free Open Source Mathematics Software
for All". The "for All" bit grates a bit with me. Sounds too much
like something a politician would say.
> (2) does the text on the front page reasonably convey what
> SAGE is to somebody who say has never heard of programs
> like GAP and PARI, and just wants to know if SAGE might
> be for them?
Yes.
Where you have "Use SAGE from the command line", I think the
reference to the command line should go to the *end* of the
paragraph, i.e. just start the paragraph talking about the web
interface, which is probably what the general audience wants to see,
and then at the end have a sentence like "You can also run SAGE
scripts from the command line, or use SAGE in the interactive text-
based IPython shell". A humungous proportion of people will get
freaked out when they hear the word "command line" (if they've heard
of "command line" at all).
> (3) Does the front page text seem to much like sales talk?
> Compared to Maple or Mathematica's web pages it's nothing
> (those pages are gut-wrenchingly obnoxious),
> but it might still be too much.
You could lose the sentence "Don't get trapped into using only one
mathematical software system" without really losing anything. It does
sound a bit like a late-night TV ad.
Be a little careful calling MAGMA commercial software. But I don't
know how to rephrase it without getting very wordy.
On the mailing list pages you have sage-devel listed twice, same with
sage-announce.
david
Timothy Clemans
http://tclemans.nonlogic.org/sage/
David Harvey
On May 6, 2007, at 7:59 AM, Timothy Clemans wrote:
> It is taking me along time to get much but what I have so far is at
> http://tclemans.nonlogic.org/sage/
No.
David
Timothy Clemans
On 5/6/07, David Harvey <dmha...@math.harvard.edu> wrote:
>
>
mabshoff
file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Timothy/My%20Documents/developer_names.html
Cheers,
Michael
Timothy Clemans
what it looked liked so far. I don't know why they are linking that
way since it is not in my code and I have tried to fix that. Those
pages do not exist yet, but why bother if someone just says no.
Timothy Clemans
yet. I did state this was a work in progress. I just started soon
after William's e-mail.
David Harvey
On May 6, 2007, at 8:15 AM, Timothy Clemans wrote:
> I know all I was trying to do was show that I was working on it and
> what it looked liked so far. I don't know why they are linking that
> way since it is not in my code and I have tried to fix that. Those
> pages do not exist yet, but why bother if someone just says no.
Sorry mate, I just like the basic thrust of William's design better
than what you have proposed. I would offer more constructive
criticism, but I'm busy with other things.
David
Timothy Clemans
information about SAGE. I don't like William's new site, because it
appears to have very little info about SAGE. With mine, a user will be
able to click on say algebra or calculus and see a page on calculus in
SAGE. The GMP and Octave sites are well designed in my opinion and I'm
trying to make a site like them.
On 5/6/07, David Harvey <dmha...@math.harvard.edu> wrote:
>
>
David Joyner
a components link, as I personally think the main webpage should
acknowledge GAP, PARI, etc. (In fact, on the SAGE authors page
http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/was/rc/web/ack.html
it would be nice to add a link to the GAP authors page
http://www.gap-system.org/Contacts/People/authors.html,
the Singular team page, and so on.) I also think there should be
a link to the SAGE wiki.
I would make the screenshots correspond with the paragraph, if at
all possible. For example, illustrate an interface to Axiom or Octave in
the 3rd paragraph. I would prefer some other color than yellow
(maybe light gray), but that is a very minor point. I'm not
sure if you need the table.
In terms of missing information, I've heard several complaints that it
is too hard to figure out how to install the windows version.
For example, at http://www.sagemath.org/SAGEbin/microsoft_windows/cygwin/
there is no zip file, so most people cannot uncompress it.
One possible solution would be for the bottom paragraph
("Download SAGE today") to have a link to a page with a zip
file, with a Vista warning as in
http://www.sagemath.org/SAGEbin/microsoft_windows/cygwin/README.txt.
The USNA has a very slow connection for the students, so installing
SAGE for them takes hours. If you would like me to create such
a zip file (which I would mirror at the USNA) just let me know.
Also, as far as missing information, the "killer app" IMHO
is that SAGE includes an easily installed version of Maxima,
GAP, Singular, etc. When a PARI or GAP or Singular user visits
this page, it would be nice to have something which would convince
them that there is no harm in switching and welcome them to SAGE.
Also, a mention of GAP (for example) could be also a link to
http://www.sagemath.org:9001/GAP, which would be rewritten to do
a much better job of explaining how GAP is included in SAGE
(eg, package structure, using GAP in the notebook, etc).
This might have the effect of welcoming GAP users over to SAGE,
when they know that there is no loss in doing so.
Possibly the "Mailing lists" link could be renamed to something more
descriptive, since it has links to your talks on SAGE. At the
moment, I can't think of anything better. If you say "Support" instead
then on the linked page should have more support-related stuff - perhaps
a link to the tutorial.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
William Stein wrote:
> Hi Georg and David,
>
> I'm doing a redesign of the SAGE website to target SAGE much
> more at end users rather than developers (I think the tipping
> point has now arrived, since about 500 people downloaded
> SAGE in the last two weeks...) Anyways, your comments
> on the mockup here would be welcome:
> http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/was/rc/web/index.html
> (Note that links to actual downloads etc might not work.)
> My questions are mainly:
> (1) do the pages look:
> -- visually appealing
> -- simple and clean
> -- convey all the necessary information (i.e., I'm not missing
> key things that used to be there)
>
> (2) does the text on the front page reasonably convey what
> SAGE is to somebody who say has never heard of programs
> like GAP and PARI, and just wants to know if SAGE might
> be for them?
>
> (3) Does the front page text seem to much like sales talk?
> Compared to Maple or Mathematica's web pages it's nothing
> (those pages are gut-wrenchingly obnoxious),
> but it might still be too much.
>
mabshoff
> In terms of missing information, I've heard several complaints that it
> is too hard to figure out how to install the windows version.
> there is no zip file, so most people cannot uncompress it.
> One possible solution would be for the bottom paragraph
> ("Download SAGE today") to have a link to a page with a zip
> The USNA has a very slow connection for the students, so installing
> SAGE for them takes hours. If you would like me to create such
> a zip file (which I would mirror at the USNA) just let me know.
>
Hello,
I got a rudimentary msi installer working. Once 2.5.0 is out I plan to
make it available and automate its creation.
Cheers,
Michael
William Stein
Many thanks for you detailed comments. I agree with all of them,
and made all the changes you suggest to
http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/was/rc/web/index.html
I'm glad you like the clean and straightforward layout of the new page.
--
William Stein
Associate Professor of Mathematics
University of Washington
http://www.williamstein.org
didier deshommes
better to merge the 2 sets of links :
"Use SAGE Online! (alternate) | Live Tutorial | Download |
Documentation |"
and
"""
Download Documentation
Live Tutorial Mailing Lists, etc
"""
into one big one. The second set of links take all my attention
(bigger fonts) and I hav eto look harder to see the links at the top.
Maybe the links only relevant to developers could be moved to the
bottom of the page, away from the user-centric links? Or was that
intentional?
Looking at Timothy's page, I really like the fonts and colors, but the
content is just not appropriate for an intro to SAGE. The perfect SAGE
page for me would be William's content and layout + Tim's fonts and
colors.
didier
William Stein
> I like it. I think links at the top are convenient. I would include
> a components link, as I personally think the main webpage should
> acknowledge GAP, PARI, etc. (In fact, on the SAGE authors page
> http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/was/rc/web/ack.html
> it would be nice to add a link to the GAP authors page
> http://www.gap-system.org/Contacts/People/authors.html,
> the Singular team page, and so on.) I also think there should be
> a link to the SAGE wiki.
This email is about
http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/was/rc/web/index.html
I've added a components link to the developer link. I've listed
the main components under "Use an open free alternative".
I did not add a components link to the main page, since the
main point of the site redesign is to appeal to users
who have never heard of GAP, PARI, Singular, etc.
> In terms of missing information, I've heard several complaints that it
> is too hard to figure out how to install the windows version.
It is. The solution is to
(1) create a good msi installer, and
(2) have a well-supported vmware machine.
Michael is working on (1) for sage-2.5, and (2) is now done I think.
> Also, as far as missing information, the "killer app" IMHO
> is that SAGE includes an easily installed version of Maxima,
> GAP, Singular, etc. When a PARI or GAP or Singular user visits
> this page, it would be nice to have something which would convince
> them that there is no harm in switching and welcome them to SAGE.
Done.
> Possibly the "Mailing lists" link could be renamed to something more
> descriptive, since it has links to your talks on SAGE. At the
> moment, I can't think of anything better. If you say "Support" instead
> then on the linked page should have more support-related stuff - perhaps
> a link to the tutorial.
Great idea, I've done that.
William
boo...@u.washington.edu
1) Use the logo Alex designed.
2) I don't like 3 of the screenshots.
symbolic.png has too big of fonts; makes it ugly
fortress.png and 37a.png are old! The notebook doesn't look like that anymore.
3) Center the car -- it looks funny left-aligned.
One usability complaint:
When the user gets to the bottom, we want 'em to be all pumped up to use the software. But no! They have to scroll back to the top! I'd put links to the tutorial, download, and public notebooks at the bottom, too. (perhaps above the giant car)
William Stein
> I like it a lot. I have a few aesthetic complaints:
>
> 1) Use the logo Alex designed.
Where? In place of a screen shot? I'm not putting it at the top instead
of the simple text word "SAGE" since many people have told me it is
hard to actually read the logo (which is true). Being cryptic is very much
what I'm aiming to avoid here -- everything should be straightforward
and friendly.
> 3) Center the car -- it looks funny left-aligned.
Great idea; done.
> One usability complaint:
>
> When the user gets to the bottom, we want 'em to be all pumped up to use the software. But no! They have to scroll back to the top! I'd put links to the tutorial, download, and public notebooks at the bottom, too. (perhaps above the giant car)
>
Great idea; done!
-- William
David Harvey
On May 6, 2007, at 1:41 PM, William Stein wrote:
>
> On 5/6/07, boo...@u.washington.edu <boo...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>> I like it a lot. I have a few aesthetic complaints:
>>
>> 1) Use the logo Alex designed.
>
> Where? In place of a screen shot? I'm not putting it at the top
> instead
> of the simple text word "SAGE" since many people have told me it is
> hard to actually read the logo (which is true). Being cryptic is
> very much
> what I'm aiming to avoid here -- everything should be straightforward
> and friendly.
One option might be: put the logo where the "SAGE" is now, and then
on the next line, instead of
Free Open Source Mathematics Software
do
SAGE: Free Open Source Mathematics Software
David
boo...@u.washington.edu
David Harvey
A few more comments...
On all the browsers I tried, the logo and the "SAGE: Free Open Source
Mathematics Software" are a bit too close together, it looks a bit
funny. Perhaps a bit more vertical space there.
We use to have the wording "Interactive tutorial" instead of "Live
tutorial". I find the former somehow more informative, although it's
a bit longer. I realise the word "Live" is supposed to convey the
idea that in the tutorial you get to interact with the actual SAGE
software, but I'm not sure it comes across that way.
Honestly, I'm not a big fan of the whole car thing. I know someone
must have put a lot of work into it, but it seems a little odd there.
Also it doesn't quite work with the menu bar floating strangely above
it. I think the menu would be better if it was flush on the bottom of
the page. If we do have to have the car, at least we should make it
clear that our car is solar-powered, unlike the large commercial
manufacturers.
David
Justin C. Walker
On May 6, 2007, at 24:37 , William Stein wrote:
[snip]
> (1) do the pages look:
> -- visually appealing
> -- simple and clean
> -- convey all the necessary information (i.e., I'm not missing
> key things that used to be there)
Overall, it looks good. I think it's worth experimenting with losing
the 'alternate' links at the top and bottom of the page. By
comparison, I think Tim's version is not as effective (and as it
stands, it certainly doesn't play well with Safari).
I agree with David that the wording is strongly suggestive of a
connection with Ron Popeil. Maybe I was wrong about saying "As seen
on TV!" :-}.
> (2) does the text on the front page reasonably convey what
> SAGE is to somebody who say has never heard of programs
> like GAP and PARI, and just wants to know if SAGE might
> be for them?
"Make no compromises" does not relate to Mathematics; maybe something
like "Experiment with and study a wide range of Mathematics".
> (3) Does the front page text seem to much like sales talk?
> Compared to Maple or Mathematica's web pages it's nothing
> (those pages are gut-wrenchingly obnoxious),
> but it might still be too much.
As above.
The bullet "Use an open free alternative" could be changed to avoid
'alternative', since "your favorite open source software" is mentioned.
> (4) I've purposely went from clean and simple, even more so
> than before, instead of say tricky drop downs css menus, etc.,
I like the overall design. A couple of comments:
- as above, do we need the top and bottom links, especially those
that duplicate prominently placed ones?
- Maybe put 'News' links after the title and links box?
- "... most any ..."?? (third 'bullet')
- Change 'Use a modern ...": I'd lose 'modern'; also, I think the
"notebook" aspect of the GUI is worth highlighting, so include it
in the bullet: "Create notebooks with a web-based graphical
interface"?
- "Be curious" - I'd reverse mentioning "??" and "?". Many will be
interested in *what* is done; fewer in *how* it's done.
- Change the 'Download' bullet: "Download SAGE for Windows, Mac OS
X, Linux"
and then mention downloading and building from source in the
discussion.
(Oh, and the 'Download' page should say "Mac OS X", not "Apple
OS X" :-})
Justin
--
They said it couldn't be done but sometimes it
doesn't work out that way.
- Casey Stengel
--
Yi Qiang
On May 6, 2007, at 10:41 AM, William Stein wrote:
>
> On 5/6/07, boo...@u.washington.edu <boo...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>> I like it a lot. I have a few aesthetic complaints:
>>
>> 1) Use the logo Alex designed.
I couldn't help myself:
<joke>
http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/yqiang/media/sage2.5.png
</joke>
Cheers,
Yi
David Harvey
links in the middle are simply unnecessary. The menu at the top is
pretty short and sweet. I think people can probably find what they want
there.
BTW the latest iteration is looking pretty gorgeous.
David
Martin Albrecht
> On May 6, 2007, at 10:41 AM, William Stein wrote:
> > On 5/6/07, boo...@u.washington.edu <boo...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> >> I like it a lot. I have a few aesthetic complaints:
> >>
> >> 1) Use the logo Alex designed.
>
> I couldn't help myself:
>
> <joke>
> http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/yqiang/media/sage2.5.png
> </joke>
Excellent!
PS: You could remove the "E" -> "SAGr" for even more web2.0 style.
--
name: Martin Albrecht
_pgp: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x8EF0DC99
_www: http://www.informatik.uni-bremen.de/~malb
_jab: martinr...@jabber.ccc.de
William Stein
I've significantly modified
http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/was/rc/web/
based on many people's extensive (and greatly
appreciated!) feedback. More feedback would be
appreciated, though I think it's converging, and
I have a lot of papers to grade :-).
William
Mike Hansen
SAGE for ..." heading. Do we have a vector version of the logo or
just a larger version that we can scale up so that it's not dominated
by the text below?
--Mike
On 5/6/07, William Stein <wst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
William Stein
> Looking good. There should be a bit more space above the "Download
> SAGE for ..." heading.
Thanks. Fixed.
> Do we have a vector version of the logo or
> just a larger version that we can scale up so that it's not dominated
> by the text below?
Yes, there is a vector version somewhere -- Alex Clemesha drew
the logo using Inkscape (a nice free vector graphics program).
Instead though, I tried shrinking the text below some which might
be just as good.
>
> --Mike
>
> On 5/6/07, William Stein <wst...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I've significantly modified
> >
> > http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/was/rc/web/
> >
> > based on many people's extensive (and greatly
> > appreciated!) feedback. More feedback would be
> > appreciated, though I think it's converging, and
> > I have a lot of papers to grade :-).
> >
> > William
> >
> > >
> >
>
> >
>
Justin C. Walker
On May 6, 2007, at 13:57 , William Stein wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I've significantly modified
>
> http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/was/rc/web/
>
> based on many people's extensive (and greatly
> appreciated!) feedback.
I like it.
The rest may be fussing with details, but, being part engineer,
fussing comes naturally:
- I think putting the "Download/.." box above the sage logo and
tag doesn't work as well as the former arrangement.
- Mike's suggestion regarding logo size is a good one.
It should be a bit more dominant.
- I understand that people like the logo that's there, but
personally, I find it a bit jarring; I'm not quite sure
what I'm looking at every time I see it.
And of course, this is all related to visual design, for which I am
eminently unsuited ;-}
Justin
--
Justin C. Walker, Curmudgeon-At-Large
Institute for the Absorption of Federal Funds
--------
Some people have a mental horizon of radius zero, and
call it their point of view.
-- David Hilbert
--------
Timothy Clemans
web design has taken over content, which is pretty sad. The Sympy,
Octave, and GMP sites are all good, because they provide all a lot of
content in a clean web design. So while you guys don't use lists and
css with them and use tables for layout, I'll be out constructing a
larger site using meta tags, Google sitemap, and Google webmaster
tools. So it will interesting to see what happens. Have fun forgetting
about serious content and designing web pages that are not using
modern code.
Timothy Clemans
Bobby Moretti
The two column navigation table is very confusing to me.
This might be a valid point. It's definitely not done very often.
I think that
web design has taken over content, which is pretty sad.
Huh?
The Sympy,
Octave, and GMP sites are all good, because they provide all a lot of
content in a clean web design. So while you guys don't use lists and
css with them and use tables for layout, I'll be out constructing a
larger site using meta tags, Google sitemap, and Google webmaster
tools. So it will interesting to see what happens. Have fun forgetting
about serious content and designing web pages that are not using
modern code.
You think that a succinct and tidy summary of what SAGE means to end users is not "serious content"?
As far as the "modern code" goes, that would be nice, but I think a site that is visually appealing and doesn't inundate the user with too much information wins over "modern code".
William Stein
> The rest may be fussing with details, but, being part engineer,
> fussing comes naturally:
Thanks. :-)
> - I think putting the "Download/.." box above the sage logo and
> tag doesn't work as well as the former arrangement.
I agree. I actually changed it back already (try "refresh" in your
browser).
> - Mike's suggestion regarding logo size is a good one.
> It should be a bit more dominant.
I agree. I'm going to wait a little before making the change though, since I'll
have to track down the appropriate file.
> - I understand that people like the logo that's there, but
> personally, I find it a bit jarring; I'm not quite sure
> what I'm looking at every time I see it.
I agree with you. Alex, is there any possibility you would
consider slightly redesigning the logo to make it look slightly
less abstract?
Justin C. Walker
On May 6, 2007, at 14:38 , Timothy Clemans wrote:
>
> Can you make a screenshot of my version in Safari. I only have IE
> and Firefox.
Here's one. A big issue for me is the fact that the "server" is
forcing the client (my browser) to view it in a certain way (I have
to scroll side-to-side, or else widen my window; neither of which I
want to do). In addition, the content seems to get lost in the
display. I can't really tell what the point of the page is, as it
appears here.
Justin
Timothy Clemans
had no idea that this sort of thing happened and it does happen for
me. Can you make a screenshot of William's design for me?
On 5/6/07, Justin C. Walker <jus...@mac.com> wrote:
>
Justin C. Walker
On May 6, 2007, at 15:20 , William Stein wrote:
>
> On 5/6/07, Justin C. Walker <jus...@mac.com> wrote:
>> On May 6, 2007, at 13:57 , William Stein wrote:
> I agree. I actually changed it back already (try "refresh" in your
> browser).
Much better :-}
A point I meant to bring up earlier, and forgot (Tim's site reminded
me): do you want to keep SAGE as an acronym, or let it stand on its
own, uninterpreted? If the former, maybe something like this
(centered, of course)?
SAGE:
Software for ...
Free Open ...
>> - I understand that people like the logo that's there, but
>> personally, I find it a bit jarring; I'm not quite sure
>> what I'm looking at every time I see it.
>
> I agree with you. Alex, is there any possibility you would
> consider slightly redesigning the logo to make it look slightly
> less abstract?
To be clear, it's the way the 'a' and 'g' are joined, together with
the 'type face', that makes for a complex visual experience (:-}), at
least for me. I think the idea can be maintained, if the visual
aspect is modified slightly. But again, since I'm a part-time
engineer with no artistic capability, I have lots of opinions about
this stuff...
Justin
--
Justin C. Walker, Curmudgeon at Large
Institute for the Absorption of Federal Funds
-----------
I'm beginning to like the cut of his jibberish.
-----------
William Stein
> > I agree. I actually changed it back already (try "refresh" in your
> > browser).
>
> Much better :-}
>
> A point I meant to bring up earlier, and forgot (Tim's site reminded
> me): do you want to keep SAGE as an acronym, or let it stand on its
> own, uninterpreted? If the former, maybe something like this
> (centered, of course)?
I've always planned to eventually drop SAGE being an acronym, at least
on the front page. I think now is the time. I think SAGE is a
reasonable name on its own for a math software program. Also it is
clear now that SAGE should target much more than just algebra and
geometry.
> SAGE:
> Software for ...
> Free Open ...
>
> >> - I understand that people like the logo that's there, but
> >> personally, I find it a bit jarring; I'm not quite sure
> >> what I'm looking at every time I see it.
> >
> > I agree with you. Alex, is there any possibility you would
> > consider slightly redesigning the logo to make it look slightly
> > less abstract?
>
> To be clear, it's the way the 'a' and 'g' are joined, together with
> the 'type face', that makes for a complex visual experience (:-}), at
> least for me. I think the idea can be maintained, if the visual
> aspect is modified slightly. But again, since I'm a part-time
> engineer with no artistic capability, I have lots of opinions about
> this stuff...
Thanks for the clarification. I'll leave it as is now, and see
if Alex Clemesha has any comments...
Justin C. Walker
On May 6, 2007, at 15:45 , Timothy Clemans wrote:
>
> Oh so it is not resizing correctly. Thank you for the screenshot. I
> had no idea that this sort of thing happened and it does happen for
> me. Can you make a screenshot of William's design for me?
Here are two, with two different widths, one being overly narrow. I
think it's important that we respect the client (browser) with these
websites. Many ignore this, expecting the client to do all the work,
making for a lousy experience.
Justin
Justin C. Walker
On May 6, 2007, at 14:35 , Timothy Clemans wrote:
>
> The two column navigation table is very confusing to me.
A lot of this discussion is about aesthetics, for which there are no
easy answers when reasonable men agree to bicker :-} For me, the
table is not confusing at all.
> I think that web design has taken over content, which is pretty sad.
I don't see this at all. Content is the central focus of the site,
and of our discussion. "we" want to make this site accessible to
those who are not hackers or who didn't "grow up" with the site as it
changed over time. Those users want a clean, well-laid out website
that is easy to navigate and whose content is easy to comprehend. A
few quick glances should be sufficient for them to get a feel for how
to deal with the pages at the site.
> The Sympy,
> Octave, and GMP sites are all good, because they provide all a lot of
> content in a clean web design.
Again, 'de gustibus non est disputandum' :-} GMP is a bit cluttered,
to my taste. The others are fine, but have perhaps too much
content. I tend to feel that content should increase (become
denser?) as you navigate further into a site. At the same time, it's
easy to get too fluffy, so a site becomes like a soap opera, with
most of the content on each page being a rehash of content on
previous pages.
> So while you guys don't use lists and
> css with them and use tables for layout, I'll be out constructing a
> larger site using meta tags, Google sitemap, and Google webmaster
> tools. So it will interesting to see what happens.
This is not about tools; it *is* about content, and about making that
content accessible.
> Have fun forgetting
> about serious content and designing web pages that are not using
> modern code.
Lighten up a bit. Grouse in private, not on public lists.
Justin
--
Justin C. Walker, Curmudgeon-At-Large
Director
Institute for the Enhancement of the Director's Income
--------
"Weaseling out of things is what separates us from the animals.
Well, except the weasel."
- Homer J Simpson
--------
mabshoff
> To be clear, it's the way the 'a' and 'g' are joined, together with
> the 'type face', that makes for a complex visual experience (:-}), at
> least for me. I think the idea can be maintained, if the visual
> aspect is modified slightly. But again, since I'm a part-time
> engineer with no artistic capability, I have lots of opinions about
> this stuff...
>
> Justin
I really like the logo "sagelogo.png" and would suggest using it as
icon for the installer/dmg/desktop link on windows because it should
scale down much better than the png that is attached to sage-devel.
Cheers,
Michael
Timothy Clemans
the content-body. I won't be using it.
On 5/6/07, Justin C. Walker <jus...@mac.com> wrote:
>
> --
> Justin C. Walker, Curmudgeon-At-Large
> Institute for the Enhancement of the Director's Income
> --------
> When LuteFisk is outlawed,
> Only outlaws will have LuteFisk
> --------
>
>
>
>
>
>
William Stein
> I'm completely sorry. This is related to a fixed body with to center
> the content-body. I won't be using it.
There are over 130 subscribers to sage-devel. You're posting way
too much to the list right now. Email Justin directly, etc.
-- William
alex clemesha
First off, nice job with the redesigning of the SAGE site, it's looking good.
About the sage logo, it's cool you guys want to display it as the
icon for sage, thanks.
On the other hand, it's true that look can come off being a little cryptic,
but I wanted it to look 'fast' and 'cool' and the 'a' and 'g' come together to
form an infinity sign, which just screams 'cool math' ;)
I would definitely like to help making it more clear to read, but I not
sure yet how to exactly do that ... I kind of like the way the shape of
the logo is (btw, it looks a little squished on the homepage),
but maybe I could accent the 'a' to make it stand out, or maybe add
more of an outline to all the letters to make them all stand out,
or maybe just add some text below like:
"SAGE: Free Open Source Mathematics Software" (or some shorter catch-line)
in stylized text to make it clear what the logo says above.
I'm open to any ideas, thanks,
-Alex
Robert Miller
the main page appear on each sub-page, as well as the grey borders. It
would give the overall site more consistency, and give the user a
feeling of still being at the same site. You could add the download,
documentation, etc. links to the menus on the sub-pages too. It's good
for a user to be able to navigate from any page towards where they're
trying to get.
The front page is quite nice. As I continue to navigate downward (as a
n00b user), I keep seeing comforting familiar things, like Gnu,
Python, and Firefox, and I start to think, what is this new,
intriguing math software.... wait it's *free*!?
I completely disagree that two columns are confusing. The fundamental
flaw of so many annoying websites is an abundance of gimmicks and no
real content. Personally, I hate mouseOver effects.
One reaction I had was to "instead of an obscure language designed for
mathematics." ...designed for, maybe a particular mathematics program,
or... there's something kind of pejorative about the way the word
mathematics fits in there... And there are still critics out there who
might say Python was such (although, to hell with 'em).
And of course I liked the first graphic...
William Stein
> Perhaps you could have the menus that appear at the top and bottom of
> the main page appear on each sub-page, as well as the grey borders. It
> would give the overall site more consistency, and give the user a
> feeling of still being at the same site. You could add the download,
> documentation, etc. links to the menus on the sub-pages too. It's good
> for a user to be able to navigate from any page towards where they're
> trying to get.
I intend to. It's some work automate adding that content to each sub-page,
so I wanted to make sure the design is solid before doing that.
> The front page is quite nice. As I continue to navigate downward (as a
> n00b user), I keep seeing comforting familiar things, like Gnu,
> Python, and Firefox, and I start to think, what is this new,
> intriguing math software.... wait it's *free*!?
:-)
> I completely disagree that two columns are confusing. The fundamental
> flaw of so many annoying websites is an abundance of gimmicks and no
> real content. Personally, I hate mouseOver effects.
>
> One reaction I had was to "instead of an obscure language designed for
> mathematics." ...designed for, maybe a particular mathematics program,
> or... there's something kind of pejorative about the way the word
> mathematics fits in there... And there are still critics out there who
> might say Python was such (although, to hell with 'em).
Thanks; you're right. I changed the sentence.
> And of course I liked the first graphic...
:-)
Robert Bradshaw
> One reaction I had was to "instead of an obscure language designed for
> mathematics." ...designed for, maybe a particular mathematics program,
> or... there's something kind of pejorative about the way the word
> mathematics fits in there... And there are still critics out there who
> might say Python was such (although, to hell with 'em).
I'll second this, but I think it is a point that needs to be
forcefully made. Perhaps "...instead of an obscure language designed
only for mathematics"
Robert Bradshaw
> Hi,
>
> I'm doing a redesign of the SAGE website to target SAGE much
> more at end users rather than developers (I think the tipping
> point has now arrived, since about 500 people downloaded
> SAGE in the last two weeks...) Anyways, your comments
> on the mockup here would be welcome:
> http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/was/rc/web/index.html
> (Note that links to actual downloads etc might not work.)
> My questions are mainly:
> (1) do the pages look:
> -- visually appealing
> -- simple and clean
> -- convey all the necessary information (i.e., I'm not missing
> key things that used to be there)
I really like new, clean user-targeted design. I might be coming a
little late into the discussion, but I did have some additional
thoughts.
I might add a couple of links to some of the graphics (which wouldn't
visually change the page at all). Like to the GNU icon, a link either
to something on the gnu website (though often their treatment of the
topic is a bit heavy-handed) or preferably to a page containing that
quote about the Sylow theorems and a link to browsing the entire
source. The python one could link to the python page (for people
coming from the mathematics side of things) and the "Use most
matematics software..." could link to a list of interfaces (perhaps
this list could be merged in with the "components." I'm not sure "Be
curious" could link to a relevant page in the tutorial.
I think the text for the download blurb makes it a bit confusing as
to what SAGE actually is. Perhaps something along the lines of
SAGE is available for Windows, Mac OS X, and Linux. SAGE also makes
it very easy to install or build from source most major open source
math programs. Download SAGE here.
I think the "Try SAGE online" link(s) need to be much more prominent,
perhaps even placed somewhere in that last paragraph.
> (2) does the text on the front page reasonably convey what
> SAGE is to somebody who say has never heard of programs
> like GAP and PARI, and just wants to know if SAGE might
> be for them?
Yes, though perhaps it could do a better job of presenting itself to
people who do use these systems. I'm not sure how redundant this
would be with the next paragraph, but perhaps something could be
added to the second paragraph to the effect that SAGE leverages/
includes "existing high-quality open source math packages such as..."
> (3) Does the front page text seem to much like sales talk?
> Compared to Maple or Mathematica's web pages it's nothing
> (those pages are gut-wrenchingly obnoxious),
> but it might still be too much.
I don't think so.
- Robert
Robert Bradshaw
>> One reaction I had was to "instead of an obscure language designed
>> for
>> mathematics." ...designed for, maybe a particular mathematics
>> program,
>> or... there's something kind of pejorative about the way the word
>> mathematics fits in there... And there are still critics out there
>> who
>> might say Python was such (although, to hell with 'em).
>
> Thanks; you're right. I changed the sentence.
I like that better, but would re-insert the word "obscure," i.e.
"instead of an obscure language designed for a particular mathematics
program"
David Harvey
that SAGE is part of the GNU project, which it's not. The GNU logo to
me says more "GNU project" than "free software". The Python and Firefox
logos somehow don't give that impression, I guess because I usually
think of GNU as an umbrella project, whereas I think of Python and
Firefox as more specific, and I see them all over the place all the
time.
David
William Stein
> On May 6, 2007, at 12:37 AM, William Stein wrote:
> I really like new, clean user-targeted design. I might be coming a
> little late into the discussion, but I did have some additional
> thoughts.
>
> I might add a couple of links to some of the graphics (which wouldn't
> visually change the page at all). Like to the GNU icon, a link either
> to something on the gnu website (though often their treatment of the
> topic is a bit heavy-handed) or preferably to a page containing that
> quote about the Sylow theorems and a link to browsing the entire
> source. The python one could link to the python page (for people
> coming from the mathematics side of things) and the "Use most
> matematics software..." could link to a list of interfaces (perhaps
> this list could be merged in with the "components." I'm not sure "Be
> curious" could link to a relevant page in the tutorial.
It would be easy -- and it is tempting -- to add dozens of links
all over the page. Almost every word could be a link, e.g., to
the mathematica website, to the MAGMA website, to the Singular
website, to the FSF, etc. I have purposely avoided doing so.
I think with some very careful thought adding some links in a bar
on the left or right side later would be a better choice. Also, I
think it's important to not have lots of links that take people away
from our site -- we want them to stay reading until they get to
the bottom of the page. Distraction is way too easy when one
is surfing the web...
> I think the text for the download blurb makes it a bit confusing as
> to what SAGE actually is. Perhaps something along the lines of
>
> SAGE is available for Windows, Mac OS X, and Linux. SAGE also makes
> it very easy to install or build from source most major open source
> math programs. Download SAGE here.
Um, that's what the download blurb already says -- they only
change you suggest is to put the word "also".
> I think the "Try SAGE online" link(s) need to be much more prominent,
> perhaps even placed somewhere in that last paragraph.
Great idea -- I've added it.
> > (2) does the text on the front page reasonably convey what
> > SAGE is to somebody who say has never heard of programs
> > like GAP and PARI, and just wants to know if SAGE might
> > be for them?
>
> Yes, though perhaps it could do a better job of presenting itself to
> people who do use these systems. I'm not sure how redundant this
> would be with the next paragraph, but perhaps something could be
> added to the second paragraph to the effect that SAGE leverages/
> includes "existing high-quality open source math packages such as..."
I've added something like that with a link to the components page.
I think that link is OK, since it is to our own site, and it has links
to all the other sites. Plus it avoids having to pick which of
the dozens of components we list.
> > (3) Does the front page text seem to much like sales talk?
> > Compared to Maple or Mathematica's web pages it's nothing
> > (those pages are gut-wrenchingly obnoxious),
> > but it might still be too much.
>
> I don't think so.
Cool.
Regarding David Harvey's comment about the picture of the GNU
logo, my feeling is that it:
* just plain looks good there on the page
* is a symbol of GPL'd software, which SAGE is; SAGE fits very well
with their mission and _does_ include numerous GNU project libraries,
e.g., GSL.
* FSF might in fact prefer that we give them credit, as we do by
including their logo prominently.
* But David has an important point. I doubt the target audience
will be misled though.
-- William
Robert Bradshaw
I thought about this too (you could easily add a link to almost every
other word on the page) but I like the flow of not having any links
in the text until the download link right at the bottom--it keeps you
reading along. A clickable image doesn't scream out to be followed.
>> I think the text for the download blurb makes it a bit confusing as
>> to what SAGE actually is. Perhaps something along the lines of
>>
>> SAGE is available for Windows, Mac OS X, and Linux. SAGE also makes
>> it very easy to install or build from source most major open source
>> math programs. Download SAGE here.
>
> Um, that's what the download blurb already says -- they only
> change you suggest is to put the word "also".
I put in a sentence before that, though I guess it's really redundant
with the heading for that paragraph. I just think there needs to be a
nit more meat in that paragraph. It felt like, when you get to the
bottom of the page, "Oh, SAGE is just/mostly an easy way to install/
build open source math packages."
>> I think the "Try SAGE online" link(s) need to be much more prominent,
>> perhaps even placed somewhere in that last paragraph.
>
> Great idea -- I've added it.
>
>>> (2) does the text on the front page reasonably convey what
>>> SAGE is to somebody who say has never heard of programs
>>> like GAP and PARI, and just wants to know if SAGE might
>>> be for them?
>>
>> Yes, though perhaps it could do a better job of presenting itself to
>> people who do use these systems. I'm not sure how redundant this
>> would be with the next paragraph, but perhaps something could be
>> added to the second paragraph to the effect that SAGE leverages/
>> includes "existing high-quality open source math packages such as..."
>
> I've added something like that with a link to the components page.
> I think that link is OK, since it is to our own site, and it has links
> to all the other sites. Plus it avoids having to pick which of
> the dozens of components we list.
Seeing the link there makes me agree with your philosophy of not
filling the pages with links (even to the same site). So sorry for
pushing you this direction (though I think the sentence is good.)
On the documentation page, I think the font is a bit large, and I
also might put an (HTML) link even though it's redundant with
clicking on the title itself.
Timothy Clemans
> so I wanted to make sure the design is solid before doing that.
Apache Tutorial: Introduction to Server Side Includes
http://httpd.apache.org/docs/1.3/howto/ssi.html
You could use h2, float, and margin to remove a lot of the table stuff
and html spaces.
Timothy Clemans
> all over the page. Almost every word could be a link, e.g., to
> the mathematica website, to the MAGMA website, to the Singular
> website, to the FSF, etc. I have purposely avoided doing so.
I think that it would be helpful if there were links to pages about
the various parts of SAGE such as the Magma interface and a comparison
between the two.
On the part about the Notebook there should be mention that it is not
supported in IE.