Free advertising on Stack Overflow

[Ivan Andrus]

I just found out that Stack Overflow provides free advertising for open source projects looking for developers:

http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2011/01/free-vote-based-advertising-launches-third-round/

All we need is someone who can create an advertisement image (to certain standards) and then top voted advertisements get free advertising for half a year. They just started the third round, so it's a good time to start I think.

-Ivan

[Eviatar]

Wow, that would be a great opportunity for Sage. I'll see if I can
come up with an image.

[Eviatar]

Here is a basic design:

http://tinyurl.com/48xqfm5

Thoughts?

[Timothy Clemans]

I like it. It would be fun to see what other designs you come up with.

> --
> To post to this group, send an email to sage-...@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
> URL: http://www.sagemath.org
>

[Dan Drake]

On Sat, 22 Jan 2011 at 05:12PM -0800, Eviatar wrote:
> Here is a basic design:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/48xqfm5

That's nice, although it would be good to mention something about the
languages invovled. It's possible to make big contributions to Sage
without knowing much or even caring about the mathematical software side
of things. Can you work in something about Python, C, and Javascript?
Maybe add in the URL sagemath.org too.

It might also be nice to ask for help, instead of just say that Sage is
math software. I like the git ad on the StackOverflow page -- it tells
you exactly what they want help with.

I have no idea if you (or anyone) could fit that all into a 220 by 220
image, though...

Dan

--
--- Dan Drake
----- http://mathsci.kaist.ac.kr/~drake
-------

[Dan Drake]

On Sun, 23 Jan 2011 at 11:22AM +0900, Dan Drake wrote:
> It might also be nice to ask for help, instead of just say that Sage is
> math software. I like the git ad on the StackOverflow page -- it tells
> you exactly what they want help with.

Okay, I clearly need more coffee. The image got hidden behind my
terminal window and I forgot about the part that says "Contribute to
Sage".

Ergh.

[Martin Albrecht]

Hi, I like the general idea but would suggest a few optimisations design wise.

- I think the font isn't optimal. A sans serif font is a good choice I think
but I would play around with some other fonts (from that family) to get an
idea how they look.

- I'd drop the gradients around the edges or the darker stuff in the edges.
The gradients remind me of website 4-5 years ago whereas the modern style
seems to be flat, like on sagemath. Almost any website logo these days is flat
with clear contrasts.

- I think some spaces between text and images is too small, giving it a slight
uneasy feel.

Feel free to ignore these comments, just my five cents.

Martin

--
name: Martin Albrecht
_pgp: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x8EF0DC99
_otr: 47F43D1A 5D68C36F 468BAEBA 640E8856 D7951CCF
_www: http://martinralbrecht.wordpress.com/
_jab: martinr...@jabber.ccc.de

[Tim Daly]

Advertising images target the emotions, not the intellect.
What images bring strong emotional responses to mathematicians?
Are Mandelbrot sets the leading edge of "cool"?
For the Sage crowd wouldn't an elliptic curve be better?

Tim Daly

[Ivan Andrus]

On Jan 23, 2011, at 4:24 PM, Tim Daly wrote:

> Advertising images target the emotions, not the intellect.
> What images bring strong emotional responses to mathematicians?
> Are Mandelbrot sets the leading edge of "cool"?
> For the Sage crowd wouldn't an elliptic curve be better?
>
> Tim Daly

Perhaps, but actually we're more likely to find programmers with (relatively) little math experience. This is just a hunch, but I bet the notebook, especially since it can be used for python, might be more appealing to that crowd. I know there are mathematicians there as well, but we could probably find more people with strong webapp development skills through this effort than math skills. Hence, I think the notebook (or similar--perhaps porting to Windows?) should be emphasized. I don't know how to do that in 200x200 px though. :-)

-Ivan

[Eviatar]

>That's nice, although it would be good to mention something about the
>languages invovled. It's possible to make big contributions to Sage
>without knowing much or even caring about the mathematical software side
>of things. Can you work in something about Python, C, and Javascript?
>Maybe add in the URL sagemath.org too.

Really? I don't think anyone who doesn't care about the math would
contribute. Sure, you don't need the strongest mathematical
background, but I should think all the developers are at least
interested in it.

I'm thinking the ad would link to the development site, so maybe it
would be easier for potential developers to find information there? I
think writing Python, C and Javascript would make it too cluttered. If
it is linked, is the URL necessary?

>- I think the font isn't optimal. A sans serif font is a good choice I think
>but I would play around with some other fonts (from that family) to get an
>idea how they look.

Yes, it definitely needs another font. I just chose Liberation Sans,
but I'm not good with fonts. Anyone have any suggestions? The new one
uses Droid Sans.

>- I'd drop the gradients around the edges or the darker stuff in the edges.
>The gradients remind me of website 4-5 years ago whereas the modern style
>seems to be flat, like on sagemath. Almost any website logo these days is flat
>with clear contrasts.

You're right. It has a more vector feel without the edges. I removed
the drop shadows too, tell me if it looks better.

>- I think some spaces between text and images is too small, giving it a slight
>uneasy feel.

I made the buckyball smaller. Is this enough?

>Advertising images target the emotions, not the intellect.
>What images bring strong emotional responses to mathematicians?
>Are Mandelbrot sets the leading edge of "cool"?
>For the Sage crowd wouldn't an elliptic curve be better?

I don't know. For me, the Mandelbrot set is more attractive; I can't
find any attractive images of elliptic curves.

Thanks for the feedback! Here's an updated version:

http://tinyurl.com/5rmhgpx

[Nicolas M. Thiery]

Hi!

Cool picture!

In this context, the word "software" probably does not bring much
information. What about replacing the bottom line by, say
``Mathematics in Python''?

Sure, that's not quite correct, and we could use help with people
having experience in C/Javascript/... but that could attract
developers "Hey, I am a python fan, and I remember some cool math
classes; maybe I could be useful to them".

Cheers,
Nicolas
--
Nicolas M. Thi�ry "Isil" <nth...@users.sf.net>
http://Nicolas.Thiery.name/

[Niles]

I like this a lot -- here are some of my thoughts:

> In this context, the word "software" probably does not bring much
> information. What about replacing the bottom line by, say
> ``Mathematics in Python''?

What about "Open-source, research-grade mathematics" ? or "Open
source mathematics software"?

>
> Sure, that's not quite correct, and we could use help with people
> having experience in C/Javascript/... but that could attract
> developers "Hey, I am a python fan, and I remember some cool math
> classes; maybe I could be useful to them".

I also was thinking about why a programmer might want to become
involved. I think there's an argument to be made that mathematics
software naturally motivates some of the most challenging "pure"
problems in computer science and programming. Factoring large
numbers, multiplying polynomials, computing decimal expansions of pi,
coloring graphs, etc -- these are not just curiosities for sage, but
central parts of its mission. Of course some of these already have
very good solutions in sage, but maybe we could come up with a more
serious list of programming problems. One good start could be
"Implement the following algorithms...", another could be "Improve
interfaces for...".

These should, I think, appear on whatever page the graphic links to.
On the graphic itself, perhaps something like "Hard problems, amazing
results", or another such line to evoke a sense of challenge. This
could fit under the line "Contribute to Sage", in a slightly smaller
font (maybe black or dark grey, monospace, as a clue that we're
referencing coding problems).

-Niles

p.s. on the topic of graphics: The Mandelbrot set is, I think, a
strong symbol for the role of computers in research mathematics. The
Lorentz attractor is another one.

[Eviatar]

I changed the bottom text:

http://tinyurl.com/68e5n6z

[mhampton]

Very nice, I like it.

-Marshall

[Eviatar]

Thanks!

Any idea what page the ad should link to? I like Niles's idea, but I
don't think know if there will be time to make such a page. I don't
see any deadline though...

Maybe linking to this page: http://sagemath.org/development.html, or
the main page would be adequate?

[Rob Beezer]

Nicely done!

[Dr. David Kirkby]

On 01/27/11 02:21 AM, Eviatar wrote:
> I changed the bottom text:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/68e5n6z
>

Would it not be better if the image had the colouration that is usually given
which indicates the number of iterations before the point remains bounded? It is
much more ascetically pleasing to show the colour.

I recall many years ago programming an 80387 floating point processor to
generate this quickly. It is possible to do it all in the stack-based 80387,
without needing to access external memory.

--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

Dave

[kcrisman]

On Jan 27, 4:44 am, "Dr. David Kirkby" <david.kir...@onetel.net>
wrote:

> On 01/27/11 02:21 AM, Eviatar wrote:
>
> > I changed the bottom text:
>
> >http://tinyurl.com/68e5n6z
>
> Would it not be better if the image had the colouration that is usually given
> which indicates the number of iterations before the point remains bounded? It is
> much more ascetically pleasing to show the colour.
>

aesthetically, hopefully ;-)

But probably having the simplest image in terms of coloring produces a
more 'branded' idea to the viewer.

Shouldn't this be on sage-marketing?

[Dr. David Kirkby]

Some might agree. I would disagree. I think the single colour looks a bit
amateurish compared to the logos of Mathematica for example. But I know other
disgree.

> Shouldn't this be on sage-marketing?

Well, I for one would not have seen the message if it was posted on sage-marketing.

[Niles]

On Jan 26, 9:40 pm, Eviatar <eviatarb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Maybe linking to this page:http://sagemath.org/development.html, or
> the main page would be adequate?

This is probably the best choice of the options available. Could
someone with control over the website set up a page like
http://sagemath.org/development-programmer.html which, for now, would
redirect to development.html, but could be modified later, once we
have some content specific to programmers?

I spent some time browsing the sage developer pages, thinking about
the perspective of a programmer. It seems to me that the target
audience is mathematicians with little or no programming experience.
The first lines of the FAQ page about contributing to sage

http://sagemath.org/doc/faq/faq-contribute.html

read "This is a quick guide for anyone who wants to contribute to
Sage. It is intended especially for anyone who is new to computer
programming." One of the first questions there is "I’m not a
programmer. Is there another way I can help out?". There is no
corresponding question for programmers who are not mathematicians --
is it really supposed to be obvious how they can help?

I think I'll start a new thread with this question; I'm also cc-ing
this to sage-marketing in case there's anyone there who isn't reading
here. Please do keep the main thread here though :)

Oh, and I also vote for the single color graphic, for branding
reasons. Also, two-tone versions of the graphic have become prevalent
in recent years (this one is white and purple) -- I think this gives a
"fresh and new" edge (which is perhaps the same as 'amateurish', I
admit).

-Niles

[Emil Widmann]

> This is probably the best choice of the options available.  Could

> someone with control over the website set up a page likehttp://sagemath.org/development-programmer.htmlwhich, for now, would

> redirect to development.html, but could be modified later, once we
> have some content specific to programmers?

Best is to PM Harald Schilly about that.

> http://sagemath.org/doc/faq/faq-contribute.html

 One of the first questions there is "I’m not a
> programmer. Is there another way I can help out?".  There is no
> corresponding question for programmers who are not mathematicians --
> is it really supposed to be obvious how they can help?

"I am not a mathematican. Is there another way I can help out?"
--> Lets formulate something, I am sure it will be no problem add it
to the page.

> "fresh and new" edge (which is perhaps the same as 'amateurish', I
> admit).

interesting thought

I like ALL of Eviatars designs very much, though I would vote for the
2nd. I think most important is to get them out "in the wild" soonest,
so please Eviatar publish. (I guess Link can be optimised later)

[kcrisman]

On Jan 27, 11:42 am, Emil Widmann <emil.widm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > This is probably the best choice of the options available.  Could
> > someone with control over the website set up a page likehttp://sagemath.org/development-programmer.htmlwhich, for now, would
> > redirect to development.html, but could be modified later, once we
> > have some content specific to programmers?
>
> Best is to PM Harald Schilly about that.
>
> >http://sagemath.org/doc/faq/faq-contribute.html
>
>   One of the first questions there is "I’m not a
>
> > programmer. Is there another way I can help out?".  There is no
> > corresponding question for programmers who are not mathematicians --
> > is it really supposed to be obvious how they can help?
>
> "I am not a mathematican. Is there another way I can help out?"
> --> Lets formulate something, I am sure it will be no problem add it
> to the page.

Yes, we definitely need this. Esp. Cython, the notebook, build system
should be mentioned on this. And pretty prominently.

- kcrisman

[Niles]

On Jan 27, 11:42 am, Emil Widmann <emil.widm...@gmail.com> wrote:

>

> I like ALL of Eviatars designs very much, though I would vote for the
> 2nd. I think most important is to get them out "in the wild" soonest,
> so please Eviatar publish. (I guess Link can be optimised later)

Agreed -- some of the other designs there are still "in progress", and
I think it's clear that the design for this ad has begun to stabilize.

[Harald Schilly]

On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 17:20, Niles <nil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Could
> someone with control over the website set up a page like
> http://sagemath.org/development-programmer.html which, for now, would
> redirect to development.html, but could be modified later, once we
> have some content specific to programmers?

This is done in a matter of seconds, no need to do it now. If you have
some content to want to put there, email me and I'll do the html
formatting and put it online. Just make sure you target the right
place, there are three possibilities: first the webseite, mainly some
static pages to provide some entry points. then, there is the official
documentation, maintained through trac and part of sage, and three,
there are wiki pages. I'm not sure what you want to put online, but
stuff on a development-...html page should be quite general and filled
with links to more specific pages.

H

[Harald Schilly]

On Thursday, January 27, 2011 2:47:29 PM UTC+1, kcrisman wrote:

> >http://tinyurl.com/68e5n6z

 I fear there is too much on this ad and it's too unorganized. You need to introduce more symmetry, maybe gradients, golden ratio and all that. The font is not so important as long it's readable. Should I try to come up with a design or is this already settled? I've only read the thread but I didn't thought much about it. Maybe I have some time in the next days for that ...

H

[Harald Schilly]

Here is my idea, svg sources are in the same dir.

http://boxen.math.washington.edu/home/schilly/marketing/stackoverflow/stackoverflow-sage-schilly-01.png

H

[kcrisman]

Umm... busy? Maybe it would be helpful to compare it to the other
logos which have been successful there; I'm imagining it that small,
but maybe it will be rather larger than it looks in my browser.

On Jan 27, 1:16 pm, Harald Schilly <harald.schi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Here is my idea, svg sources are in the same dir.
>

> http://boxen.math.washington.edu/home/schilly/marketing/stackoverflow...
>
> H

[Nicolas M. Thiery]

On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 10:16:54AM -0800, Harald Schilly wrote:
> Here is my idea, svg sources are in the same dir.
> http://boxen.math.washington.edu/home/schilly/marketing/stackoverflow/stackoverflow-sage-schilly-01.png

Wow, a beautiful summary of our development process!

What about "#4122" or "ticket 4122" instead, "issues" being a bit negative?

Could trac be moved closer to the ticket number?

[Eviatar]

Harald, I think your version is too crowded. The ad should convey
quickly what Sage is.

You gave some good criticism; here's another version:

http://tinyurl.com/487hagz

[kcrisman]

I'm so nerdy. But seeing the Mandelbrot set in any orientation other
than the usual one is like dragging fingernails on a blackboard.

- kcrisman

[Emil Widmann]

I fear this thread is going nowhere. Let's publish one and start with
the
wiki etc. For development this was published recently
http://www.liafa.jussieu.fr/~labbe/Sage/how-to-contribute/

[Emil Widmann]

> I fear this thread is going nowhere. Let's publish one and start with
> the
> wiki etc. For development this was published recentlyhttp://www.liafa.jussieu.fr/~labbe/Sage/how-to-contribute/

I am sorry for "this thread is going no where", I obviously killed it,
which is a shame. What I wanted to express is that I think we have
good enough suggestions, let's choose one and publish it at
stackoverflow.

To make it going again I made a page with all suggestions combined
(and also some other ads for comparison).
http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/emil/doc/SageAds/

I think the sage ads look better than the others!
what do you think?

[Eviatar]

You're right. Let's decide on one and get it published quickly! Thanks
for making the page, it gives some perspective.

I don't know about the "how to contribute" page. It does give a lot of
information about contributing, but doesn't talk much about Sage. I
think anyone wanting to contribute would like to learn more about the
Sage project beforehand, and most of the people who see the ad won't
know much, if at all, about Sage. I'll make a wiki page with some
links to general information and development information, maybe we
could link to that?

[Eviatar]

I made a very basic landing page:

http://wiki.sagemath.org/StackOverflowLanding

[William Stein]

Wow, we should use that somehow. (A t-shirt? Sticker? Illustration
for the development guide?) It's an amazing diagram. Maybe you
should change the issue from "trac 4211" in your current design to
"trac 2048", which is more relevant.

Harald, you described the Mandelbrot design as "I fear there is too
much on this ad", and responded with an ad that has way more in it...
:-).

I personally like the second ad at
http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/emil/doc/SageAds/ the best.

I think it's really, really wonderful that you all are putting this
together; it seems like an excellent way to recruit new tallent from
outside of the academic mathematics community.

-- William

> H
>
> --
> To post to this group, send an email to sage-...@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to
> sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
> URL: http://www.sagemath.org
>

--
William Stein
Professor of Mathematics
University of Washington
http://wstein.org

[David Roe]

I agree with William on "Eviatar 2": it's clear and concise.
David

[Ivan Andrus]

I prefer number 3, but 2 is my second choice.

-Ivan

[Eviatar]

>I think it's really, really wonderful that you all are putting this
>together; it seems like an excellent way to recruit new tallent from
>outside of the academic mathematics community.

I hope it does!

Can I now make the submission, since there is a majority on the choice
of ad?

[Emil Widmann]

Please Eviatar do it !

[William Stein]

Yes, please submit it.

-- William

[Eviatar]

I can't post it because you need 10 reputation to post images. Anyone
have a Meta StackOverflow account with over 10 reputation?

Also, what page should I link to?

Thanks in advance.

[Niles]

On Jan 29, 4:57 am, Eviatar <eviatarb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I can't post it because you need 10 reputation to post images. Anyone
> have a Meta StackOverflow account with over 10 reputation?

I can't help here, but I did see that someone with +200 on
StackOverflow gets a +100 bonus on Meta, so maybe someone else can
help that way. I also saw that 15 points are required to upvote
there, . . . so bear that in mind if you want to vote for the Sage
ad :)

[Ivan Andrus]

I just created a Meta StackOverflow account and have 101 reputation. I'll post the image, and link to
http://wiki.sagemath.org/StackOverflowLanding
unless people think I should link to somewhere else, like the front page.

-Ivan

[Ivan Andrus]

Okay it's up at
http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/74983/open-source-advertising-sidebar-1h-2011/77019#77019
so feel free to vote for it.

I think I can still edit it to point somewhere else if we want.

-Ivan

[Niles]

On Jan 29, 9:41 am, Ivan Andrus <darthand...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Okay it's up athttp://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/74983/open-source-advertising...

> so feel free to vote for it.
>
> I think I can still edit it to point somewhere else if we want.
>
> -Ivan

Thanks! Now I have to get some rep. points so I can vote :)

[Eviatar]

Thank you.

How did you get all that reputation, just from associating your
StackOverflow profile?

[Ivan Andrus]

> Thank you.
>
> How did you get all that reputation, just from associating your
> StackOverflow profile?

Yep. I was looking and there a _lot_ of people with 101 reputation. :-)

-Ivan

[Niles]

But it's not too hard to build up the 15 points necessary to vote -- I
managed to do it yesterday. As I understand it, there are no
restrictions on developers voting for projects they're currently
involved with (that is -- go vote for sage!).

One minor issue: I noticed that we have no hover text. May I suggest
"Sage: Open source mathematics software" ?

thanks again to all involved,
Niles

and p.s. Let's make sure to not forget about the landing page :)