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Cyrus Kalbrener
Jul 3, 2019, 5:53:50 PM7/3/19
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The device is assembled and working. I am only missing the alpha screen that covers the pancake tube, which Kit Hub does not sell and IMI is out of at the moment. I have instead 3d printed a cover to protect it until I can acquire such a screen.
I need a device ID before I can upload any logs, however. How do I go about acquiring one?
I need a device ID before I can upload any logs, however. How do I go about acquiring one?
Sean Bonner
Jul 3, 2019, 11:21:31 PM7/3/19
to Cyrus Kalbrener, safecast...@googlegroups.com
Hi Cyrus-
I’ll email you a number personally in a moment.
The screen is only needed if you plan to use the bGeigie Nano outside of the case, as long as it’s inside it’s fine without it. I’d advise against using 3d printed one as the ones from Medcom are specifically made to have no impact on the measurement and be unlikely to damage the tube. A 3d printed one could both impact your measurement and damage the tube causing you to have to buy a new one. Better to just not put a screen on and keep it in the case until Medcom has screens available again.
Looking forward to seeing some data come in!
-s
On Jul 4, 2019, at 6:53 AM, Cyrus Kalbrener <cyr...@gmail.com> wrote:
The device is assembled and working. I am only missing the alpha screen that covers the pancake tube, which Kit Hub does not sell and IMI is out of at the moment. I have instead 3d printed a cover to protect it until I can acquire such a screen.
I need a device ID before I can upload any logs, however. How do I go about acquiring one?
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cyr...@gmail.com
Jul 4, 2019, 2:04:35 PM7/4/19
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It ran fine for a day, and now it doesn't register any clicks (yes, I took the 3d printed cover off.) I went for a drive and it read fine, then on the last leg it dropped to 0 cpm and I haven't gotten it to register anything since. I put the meter on it and the irover is getting power, and when I measure between the cathode and anode leads I get 323v pretty consistently. Any ideas?
Sean Bonner
Jul 4, 2019, 6:25:03 PM7/4/19
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Sounds like a connection issue or a short, first thing to do is look at all the solder points and see if something isn’t connected solidly. If it was working and just stopped that usually means there was a weak solder point that came off, or a wire that came loose.
If you can send close up photos of the board others can check as well.
Sean Bonner
Jul 4, 2019, 7:11:27 PM7/4/19
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It certainly could. A photo of the tube would be good too.
-s
On Jul 5, 2019, at 7:39 AM, Brain Dead Administration <bdsm...@gmail.com> wrote:Would a damaged membrane on the LMN tube cause this?
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Cyrus Kalbrener
Jul 4, 2019, 7:36:02 PM7/4/19
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Photos via link since posting more than one photo seemed to cause issues. Let me know if you need more detail.
Sean Bonner
Jul 4, 2019, 7:47:20 PM7/4/19
to Cyrus Kalbrener, safecast...@googlegroups.com
Photos did the trick - it’s definitely the tube - you popped it somehow. The top should be pulled perfectly tight and that you can see little wrinkles on the sides means the air tight seal has been punctured. If you attached the 3D printed screen to it, when you removed it that could have caused a leak or a compromised portion that then popped later when you were carrying it around which would explain why it worked and then all the sudden stopped.
The good news is that’s an easy part swapping replacement, the bad news is it’s the most expensive single part in the whole device...
-s
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cyr...@gmail.com
Jul 4, 2019, 7:50:27 PM7/4/19
to Sean Bonner, Safecast Device Discussions and Support
Hmm. That's how it arrived, with two parts of the membrane wrinkled. I made sure there was a hole in the cover to prevent any pressure issues as well.
Sean Bonner
Jul 4, 2019, 8:11:37 PM7/4/19
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It would have never worked if it looked like that before, you would have gotten 0 CMP from the start. If you were getting CMP readings and then it went to 0, that’s what happens when a tube pops.
I’m not sure what you mean by “hole in the cover” - the pelican case is air tight and has no pressure issues. If you mean you attached something to the tube and then removed it, the adhesive could have weakened the membrane causing the leak.
-s
cyr...@gmail.com
Jul 4, 2019, 8:20:02 PM7/4/19
to Sean Bonner, Safecast Device Discussions and Support
There was no adhesive, just a thin friction fit cap to k keep me from clumsily poking a hole in it. It DID function just fine, and failed while it had been in the case for some time.
cyr...@gmail.com
Jul 4, 2019, 9:30:51 PM7/4/19
to Sean Bonner, Safecast Device Discussions and Support
I assure you it was certainly wrinkled between the 9 and 10 and between the 2 and 3 o'clock positions when I first opened it. I assumed that was how they looked, and it seems like there are some structure under the surface of the wrinkles that causes the deformation.
Regardless, I will contact LND tomorrow and order a replacement. Hopefully by the time it arrives I'll have the necessary screen to cover it. I'm just too clumsy not to damage it otherwise.
Cyrus Kalbrener
Jul 9, 2019, 11:59:37 AM7/9/19
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After talking with LND, they indicated that the wrinkling is not necessarily an indication of a popped sensor. That along with the fact that it DID arrive with those wrinkles and that it DID collect data at a rate comparable to other bGeigies (awesome feature of data sharing, btw) still has me suspicious. I am returning the GM tube to LND and ordered another separate tube in the mean time. We'll see what happens with the new tube and also await the results of LNDs analysis of the tube I am returning.
On Wednesday, July 3, 2019 at 4:53:50 PM UTC-5, Cyrus Kalbrener wrote:
Jam
Jul 9, 2019, 10:35:09 PM7/9/19
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Hello -
I had a look at your photos and can’t see any obvious reason for the failure. I’d say it’s just very bad luck with the tube. I agree with LND that the membrane looks intact and the wrinkles are not atypical. (I’d say I see them on maybe 20% of tubes.)
A failure of the tube itself after only a few hours of operation is also not unheard of, but I’d have to say it’s rare. I’ve seen many hundreds of tubes put into bGeigies and not even one percent of them have failed mysteriously. Still, it’s not a non-zero number.
If you get the tube back —or a replacement— and the trouble persists, we can troubleshoot from there. The only thing I can think to check in the meantime is solder joints. Most of what I can see in the photos looks looks fine, but there is some indication that some joints are “cold”. That is, the solder is not fully connected to both the board and the component. This often happens on ground plane connections because there is a large area of copper involved and it sucks the heat out of everything including the soldering tip. For instance, if you zoom in on your photo that shows the battery (IMG_20190704_182653.jpg) and look closely at the “bat+” pin (it’s labeled on the far side) you can see a ring in the solder around the brass pin. That shows incomplete adhesion. It’s easy to fix, just reheat the joint until the solder wets both the pin and the pad on the board. (All three parts —pin, pad, and solder— must get hot enough simultaneously for the solder’s adhesiveness to overcome its cohesiveness which can get tricky when they each have a different mass and heat-capacity.)
Anyway, I don’t see a “smoking gun” for the failure. On the voltage you measured on the tube, it’s probably fine. The voltage should be 500v but an ordinary voltmeter puts too much load on such a delicate circuit so it will sag and read low. You need a special high voltage, high impedance probe to measure it. On an ordinary digital meter you’ll see 300v or so.
- jam
I had a look at your photos and can’t see any obvious reason for the failure. I’d say it’s just very bad luck with the tube. I agree with LND that the membrane looks intact and the wrinkles are not atypical. (I’d say I see them on maybe 20% of tubes.)
A failure of the tube itself after only a few hours of operation is also not unheard of, but I’d have to say it’s rare. I’ve seen many hundreds of tubes put into bGeigies and not even one percent of them have failed mysteriously. Still, it’s not a non-zero number.
If you get the tube back —or a replacement— and the trouble persists, we can troubleshoot from there. The only thing I can think to check in the meantime is solder joints. Most of what I can see in the photos looks looks fine, but there is some indication that some joints are “cold”. That is, the solder is not fully connected to both the board and the component. This often happens on ground plane connections because there is a large area of copper involved and it sucks the heat out of everything including the soldering tip. For instance, if you zoom in on your photo that shows the battery (IMG_20190704_182653.jpg) and look closely at the “bat+” pin (it’s labeled on the far side) you can see a ring in the solder around the brass pin. That shows incomplete adhesion. It’s easy to fix, just reheat the joint until the solder wets both the pin and the pad on the board. (All three parts —pin, pad, and solder— must get hot enough simultaneously for the solder’s adhesiveness to overcome its cohesiveness which can get tricky when they each have a different mass and heat-capacity.)
Anyway, I don’t see a “smoking gun” for the failure. On the voltage you measured on the tube, it’s probably fine. The voltage should be 500v but an ordinary voltmeter puts too much load on such a delicate circuit so it will sag and read low. You need a special high voltage, high impedance probe to measure it. On an ordinary digital meter you’ll see 300v or so.
- jam
cyr...@gmail.com
Jul 9, 2019, 10:55:54 PM7/9/19
to Jam, Safecast Device Discussions and Support
Thanks for the info. I'll take a look at the joint you identified and try to see if I can spot similar issues elsewhere. Thanks also for the voltage info. That helps a lot.
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cyr...@gmail.com
Jul 11, 2019, 7:55:49 PM7/11/19
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LND was awesome and sent me a replacement GM tube very quickly. I checked it for wrinkles, which it had, though to a slightly lesser degree than the previous one. I also wired the tube up to the bGeigie without installing it to make sure it worked, which it did.
I then went ahead and installed it on inserted it into the pelican case. I took it outside and reset the GPS and put it into logging mode and left it on to make sure it didn't fail on me again.
It failed on me again. I am right back to where I was a week ago. I need some advice on how to proceed before I drop more money on another tube.
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Edouard Lafargue
Jul 12, 2019, 2:15:00 AM7/12/19
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Can you share other pictures of your setup? How is the tube inserted, what does it touch, etc...
Ed
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Rob Oudendijk
Jul 12, 2019, 4:29:41 PM7/12/19
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Are you sure the connection is still correct when you insert the unit into the case? If the tube is good and the Irover works fine outside of the case, I suspect the connection could be the issue.
regards
rob
cyr...@gmail.com
Jul 12, 2019, 4:57:45 PM7/12/19
to Rob Oudendijk, Safecast Device Discussions and Support
It works fine outside the case and inside the case, for a while. After a limited time it simply stops registering clicks and never recovers until I replace the GM tube. It is not an intermittent issue; once it stops receiving clicks that's it.
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Rob Oudendijk
Jul 12, 2019, 5:01:25 PM7/12/19
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And after replacing the tube it is fine again?
regards
rob
Regards,
Rob Oudendijk Yuka Hayashi
cyr...@gmail.com
Jul 12, 2019, 5:02:34 PM7/12/19
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After replacing the tube it exhibited the same behavior where it worked fine for a little while, then nothing.
Rob Oudendijk
Jul 12, 2019, 5:06:38 PM7/12/19
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Thanks for the reply. I am started to suspect the Irover. Since counting works fine and the tubes seesm to be fine.
regards
rpb
Regards,
Rob Oudendijk Yuka Hayashi
cyr...@gmail.com
Jul 12, 2019, 5:08:43 PM7/12/19
to Rob Oudendijk, Safecast Device Discussions and Support
I suspect that as well, though it is scary to think that a iRover could destroy a GM tube.
Cyrus Kalbrener
Aug 2, 2019, 10:28:02 AM8/2/19
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Final update.
I had someone with more expertise than myself look at it, and the nearest they could tell was that it was a defective iRover. That defect may or may not have been caused by stress on the board by some mounting hardware that was improperly sized, or it may have just been defective from the start. Either way, the GM tube was NOT harmed and works just fine with a replacement iRover board.
Yay!
On Wednesday, July 3, 2019 at 4:53:50 PM UTC-5, Cyrus Kalbrener wrote:
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