Re: Fw: Women entering Temples - Sadhguru clarifies

[Xavier William]

Hilda,

You write "There are traditions and mores which need to be preserved."

It was tradition in ancient times to sacrifice animals and even human beings and it is tradition among the Hindu Aghoris of Benares to consume human flesh even now in the belief that it will liberate them from the endless circles of birth and rebirth. Should we carry on with these traditions of animal/human sacrifice and cannibalism just because they are traditions?

Caste and caste discrimination, slavery, monarchy etc were traditions for over 2000 years. Should we go on catering to these practices just because they are traditions?

In Kerala women of the low castes had to go topless even to the temples. The first women to cover their breasts when going to the temple were beaten up for abusing tradition. So I suggest you stick to tradition and come topless to Kerala if you want to worship in a Temple.

Only fools and blind followers stick to tradition. Ordinary men and women accept change readily. If it were not so we would still be in the stone age.

I may also point out that the IS and other fundamentalists are sticklers for traditions and refuse to change. What is the fundamental difference between you and them except for your labels and the differences in your traditions?

On 8 February 2016 at 06:22, hilda raja <pac...@yahoo.com> wrote:

This is really educative -please circulate Everything is not Rights.In fact women can pray anywhere why only pick at Shani temple.There are traditions and mores which need to be preserved.This is no discrimination.If one says it is a right to walk where one wants/likes it is not allowed.Is that denial of Rights?Hence there are rules and regulations to control people and to ensure the good.One can even say the prevention of women from entering Shani temple is like that...if one does not want to heed to the sastras.PLEASE CIRCULATE.HR

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Rajan Gopalan 
To:
Sent: Sunday, 7 February 2016 4:57 PM
Subject: Women entering Temples - Sadhguru clarifies

What a brilliant reply by Sadhguru on why women are not allowed in certain temples.
Please do read it Full!!

http://satyavijayi.com/what-a-brilliant-reply-by-sadhuru-on-why-women-are-not-allowed-in-certain-temples-do-read-it-full/


Questioner: Sadhguru, why are women not being allowed into certain temples? For example, now with the Shani temple. Why this discrimination?

Sadhguru: At Linga Bhairavi, men are not allowed to enter the sanctum sanctorum, but they never protest. They are married and domesticated – they have been trained not to protest against anything (laughter).

It needs to be understood that these temples are not places of prayer – they are different types of energies. Since we are aware that the planets in the solar system have an impact upon our physiology, our psychological structure, and the context of our lives, we have created temples for the different planets.

Based on the time and date of your birth, and the latitude and longitude of your place of birth, Indian astrologers make complex calculations to see which planets have the greatest influence on your life. These things are relevant to you to some extent. However, if you have access to inner technology, it will level out these planetary impacts.

Shani or Saturn, which is a faraway planet, takes 30 years to complete one revolution around the sun. Considering the revolutions of Saturn and those of the Earth, and your birth details, they can calculate what impact Saturn has on you at different times of your life.

Shani is one of the sons of Surya, the sun – the other one being Yama. Shani is the lord of dominance, distress, depression, disease, and disaster. Yama is the lord of death – the “D” company. These two are brothers-in-arms, always working in tandem. Their mother, Surya’s wife, is Chaya. Chaya means “shadow.” This is science expressed in a dialectical way. The sun is the source of light for us. His wife is Chaya – shadow. Only because there is sunlight, there is shadow.

The seventh day, Saturday, is the day of Saturn. Seven being Saat, it isSaaturday or Saturday. Saturn is the seventh planet or graha in the Indian astrological system. The word “graha” means “to grasp” or “to impact.” Saturn as per modern astronomy is the sixth planet. But the Indian astrology looked at celestial objects which have a strong impact on life upon this planet. In that context, Sun and Moon are also counted as grahas, not to be understood as planets, making Saturn the seventh graha.

In the order of grahas that have a strong influence upon this planet – Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn – though Shani is the seventh, he is a very dominant force, as health and happiness give you freedom of life, but disease and depression will seriously dominate your life. The question is are you allowing external forces, such as the celestial objects, to influence or impact you, or is your inner nature the only influence upon you. Hence, in this tradition, profound astrologers refused to make predictions for those who are on the spiritual path or under the influence of a spiritual Guru.

Because his is a 30-year cycle, once in 30 years, you become more susceptible to the influence of Saturn. This phase, known as Saade Saati, or in Tamil,Yelarai Shani, lasts for seven and a half years. You may become more susceptible to disease, depression, disasters, and death, and more vulnerable to external influences. In order to bridge the pits that may occur during a Saade Saati, various processes and rituals are associated with Shani temples.

There are temples for Shani Deva, where Saturn is personified as a god. Currently, there is this controversy about allowing women to enter a certain temple in Maharashtra, the Shani Shingnapur temple. Very powerful processes are conducted at this temple. Shani temples are mainly used for occult purposes and exorcism. People come there mainly to ward off occult influences or because they feel they are possessed. Because occult processes are conducted there, the energies are not conducive for women. As a woman is entrusted with the significant responsibility of manufacturing the next generation, her body is far more receptive and vulnerable to certain types of energies – especially during pregnancy and menstrual cycles.

Should women not enter the sanctum at all? They could if they were appropriately trained for it, but it would be much more difficult to train women than men for this purpose, simply because of a few biological advantages men have in this area of life. In the very nature of female biology, occult forces can have a deeper impact upon her system.

To remove occult influences and perform exorcisms, certain energies are used that are not nice for a woman at all. Shani is not nice. But he is a part of our lives – we have to deal with him too. Because of these occult forces, women are asked not to enter the area where such things are done. It would not be good for their physical wellbeing.

When certain things go wrong with life, you have to deal with them in a certain way, which may not be pleasant. These temples were created for this purpose. Today, some people perceive it as discrimination that women should not enter this space. It is not discrimination but discretion.

Maybe the way it is enforced is crude and seems discriminatory, and that is why these women are protesting. If one day, men protest in front of Linga Bhairavi and want to enter the sanctum, I will lock it. I will not let them into sanctum because it is not designed for men unless they are appropriately trained for it. This is not discrimination – it is necessary discretion. The space of Dhyanalinga, for one half of the lunar cycle, is managed by men; for the other half, it is managed by women – as that is the nature of an inclusive consecration, which Dhyanalinga is.

At certain temples, like the Velliangiri hill temple, women are prevented from going up the mountain, as the path goes through dense forest that was rich in wildlife in the past, and it was considered unsafe for women to take this journey. But today, these rules can be relaxed.

In view of the demand to allow women entry to the Shani temple, we need to educate people about the science behind these temples – what they are about and why they were built.

In today’s democratic fervor, we want to establish equality, but in certain contexts, this would work to the disadvantage of women.

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.

--

Regards

Xavier William

“Life is a futile process that exerts to render eternal what is essentially transient and in the process renders its own meaning to what is essentially meaningless.” - Xavier William

"All new ideas good or bad, great or small start with a one-man minority" - anonymous

Nature is very prodigal in generating life and very thrifty in sustaining it. - unknown

Respect existence or expect resistance - unknown

“Faith moves mountains, but only science (sic) can move them to the right place...”― Joseph Goebbels. 

"Ridicule is often the only possible weapon against ridiculous propositions" Thomas Jefferson

Propositions which are revered today as sacred may prove to be ridiculous tomorrow - me

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups - George Carlin

Religion is regarded by the common people as holy, by the wise as evil (sic), and by the rulers as useful - Senecca

:Those who have nothing to be proud of glorify their heritage - Thomas Paine

“All superstition is much the same, whether it be that of astrology, dreams, omens, retributive judgment or the like, in all of which the deluded believers observe events which are fulfilled, but neglect and pass over their failure, though it be much more common.” Francis Bacon 

[Xavier William]

Sakuntala,

I thank you for your open views. But from what you have written about your home that you dont allow shrill voices, it is obvious your home is a dictatorship and so is the society that you envision with no differences of opinions or shrill voiced discussions. From my 69 years of experience on this earth and my extensive education and world experience I find that no two persons have the same opinion on everything. What is more the same person can change his opinions many times in his lifetime. Thus I was a devout Catholic until my teens when I began to have doubts about what I had been taught or rather conditioned to. Since 18 I have been a die hard atheist and rationalist. On the other hand one of my brothers has become a more devout Catholic whereas in his younger days he was not as devout as me. We have heated discussions even now which takes us nowhere as he sticks to his guns and me to mine. (He is 74 almost) This difference or extremes of beliefs does not mean we are enemies. Only halfwits and retards keep the same opinion all their lives because they have no opinions. If there are no differences of opinions in your family then there is something wrong with your family which needs to be looked into urgently.

At one point in history everyone believed that the earth was flat and that the Sun went around the earth. Then some man whom the others scoffed at as a fool came and said that the earth was round and that it is the earth that goes round the sun. The promoters of this idea were persecuted and burned on the stakes. But now everyone accepts these ideas after many many shrill voiced discussions which you try to avoid.

Someone said

​

"All new ideas good or bad, great or small start with a one-man minority" Thus most if not all of today's religions started out with one man such as Zoroaster as in the case of Zoroastrianism, with Jesus and/or Paul as in the case of Christianity or with Mahaveer and Buddha as in the case of Jainism and Buddhism, with Mohammad as in the case of Islam ..etc All of these founders were scoffed at and persecuted when they started out and Jesus was even crucified. So what is scoffed at today will become the venerable truth tomorrow. Those who are persecuted today become persecutors tomorrow. So all this talk of sticking to traditions is totally meaningless.

My wife and I seldom agree on anything and we have heated discussions on many things almost every day. This does not mean our relationship is in disharmony. Only dictators fear differences of opinion and heated debates. Every religion, every party, every cult, every moment represents different opinions, different beliefs, different perceptions. What is more these opinions and perceptions change over time in all organizations just as they do in individuals.

You have been contacting me by internet which has only been made possible by science and rational thinking. Now you are biting the hand that feeds you when you say that everything is nature. If it were so there would have been internet and modern healthcare and all modern facilities and luxuries from the beginning of time. Bragging about nature seems to be in vogue among some cults now. But I think you have crossed the threshold between sense and nonsense when you scoff at science even as you enjoy and exploit its fruits to the hilt and further.

On 9 February 2016 at 13:58, Shakuntala Iyer <shakk...@gmail.com> wrote:

I perfectly do not entertain debate when harmony gets disturbed. I do not allow it inside home when my home wants  peace. And I reciprocate the same to society because it is a mass of minds. Each one, with own shrill logic, raising voice and shouting logic doesn't create a society. Hence, we do not want rationales, debates to kill the essence of togetherness which in turn is the mission of Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam. We should learn to accept that other people also have their minds. This is not understood by rationalists.

And as far as science is concerned, it was born in labs. Real science is nature. Be of any kind. Hindu as a civilization is Dharma of Nature. Or Swa-Bhaava; the constituency of our existence. Its beyond the comprehension of any rationalist as why earth gyrates around the Sun despite being extremely knowledgeable as how it gyrates! Labs only scratch what Nature has blessed. And Nature tells humans to understand, not disturb.

By the way, in my previous mail, I sent an attachment of a screenshot reflecting donations to the organisation which is 'fighting for' Shani temple sanctum entry. Did you see the tremendous rationale, devotion etc in the protest?

I end here! God Bless! 

On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 11:30 AM, Xavier William <vare...@gmail.com> wrote:

So Sakuntala,

Are you suggesting that emotions should substitute for science and logic? Emotions have their value for they are emotional satisfactions that make worth living. But to make life smooth and easy we need science which in turn is based on logic and rationale. Thus when you fall ill you approach a hospital or doctor who treats you in conformation with logical and rational premises. What is more emotions and emotional values differ from person to person whereas rationale is a thing common to all. There is no way of coming to a consensus in emotional matters whereas logic is about coming to a consensus. In a discussion such as ours emotions have no value since your emotions and my emotions may seldom be the same. In contrast we can come to a consensus in matters of logic and rationale. So if we are discussing something or debating on something as we are doing now reg tradtions resorting to emotions cannot help whereas with logic we can come to a consensus or at least agree to disagree which is not possible if we resort to our emotions

On 9 February 2016 at 10:19, Shakuntala Iyer <shakk...@gmail.com> wrote:

No Mr Williams. You are mistaking Ms Annapoorni. When many women, educated woman accept Dharma and tradition of society, it is only a voice of rejection to so called rationalism! And I repeat, brain driven logic! While society lives on heart! You see today, food is grown by people who have gratitude to earth not by rationales who sit and comment. So, health of society is in understanding. Critical clinicism called rationale is just to push one's own ego against the mass. It is just identity crisis!

Kindly do not counter wisdom with rationale! Wisdom is perfect understanding even of a wrong while rationale is deliberate misunderstanding even of right/correct!

So, please leave it. We shall for sure defend our tradition. And the word tradition meaning what I have defined in my first response.

Thanks

On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 5:14 AM, Xavier William <vare...@gmail.com> wrote:

You are saying that you have to stick to some traditions such as women not entering some temples whereas you have to forsake other traditions such as women going topless to temples. There is a temple in Kerala at Kodungalloor where the tradition is to sing obscene songs. Should we carry on with this? Who decides what tradition should be kept and what should be abandoned? Is some Hilda some authority in deciding such things? Whether it leaves a disgusting taste in your mouth or not you should either stick to traditions or not stick. You cannot have it both ways and so if you are a stickler for traditions then I think the right thing to do is to go topless and sing obscene things in Kerala temples.

I am an atheist and a rationalist and it leaves a very bad feeling all over me when educated men and women preach nonsense. By the way you have not answered my question as to how Muslims are responsible for Sati when Sati was being practiced in India at least a thousand years before the Muslims came.

On 8 February 2016 at 22:55, Annapoorni S <poornis...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Mr. William

I find it difficult to believe you couldn't or didn't get the point behind Dr. Hilda's mail. I somehow get the feeling that you simply used that word to pick on long-dead practices which have no relevance to the spirit of her mail.

And by the way, why was there no mention of any traditions of other religions mentioned in your response, i wonder. i am sure you know that every community had such unjustified traditions. 

It was truly a shocking  statement that you had made in asking Dr. Hilda to come topless to the temple, which has left a disgusting taste in the mouth.

I do hope you will not repeat such uncalled for blunders in future.

--

Best

Shakuntala Iyer

"EVERY GREAT PROBLEM IS A POTENTIAL OPPORTUNITY "

--

Regards

Xavier William

“Life is a futile process that exerts to render eternal what is essentially transient and in the process renders its own meaning to what is essentially meaningless.” - Xavier William

"All new ideas good or bad, great or small start with a one-man minority" - anonymous

Nature is very prodigal in generating life and very thrifty in sustaining it. - unknown

Respect existence or expect resistance - unknown

“Faith moves mountains, but only science (sic) can move them to the right place...”― Joseph Goebbels. 

"Ridicule is often the only possible weapon against ridiculous propositions" Thomas Jefferson

Propositions which are revered today as sacred may prove to be ridiculous tomorrow - me

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups - George Carlin

Religion is regarded by the common people as holy, by the wise as evil (sic), and by the rulers as useful - Senecca

:Those who have nothing to be proud of glorify their heritage - Thomas Paine

“All superstition is much the same, whether it be that of astrology, dreams, omens, retributive judgment or the like, in all of which the deluded believers observe events which are fulfilled, but neglect and pass over their failure, though it be much more common.” Francis Bacon 

--

Best

Shakuntala Iyer

"EVERY GREAT PROBLEM IS A POTENTIAL OPPORTUNITY "