Suggestion: drop old Nvidia GPU drivers

[Jerrod Frost]

I'm going to make a case to drop older GPU drivers which don't offer anything more than current gen drivers.

#4.15 (Short-Term Drivers)

Same support as 410

#4.10 (LTS Drivers)

Support Goes all the way back to Geforce 600 Series Cards Released on March 22, 2012

#3.90 (LTS Drivers)

Support adds from Geforce 500 all the way back to Geforce 400 Series Cards. Geforce 500s were released on Nov 8th, 2010. These are supported by nouveau. Nouveau only doesn't support SLI, and Compute is a WIP (which would be a waste of electricity over 300w for less compute/performance than a GTX1050) for all NVC0 (Fermi) chips.

I can see keeping whats above, even if I'm skeptical about using Gaming GPUs older than 2012. Personally, I'd take a vote to ditch 390.XX in favor of 410 LTS and let the rest be covered by nouveau.

#3.40 (LTS Drivers)

Supports Geforce 800 down to adding support for Geforce 200 Series Cards to Geforce 8 series, 200 series was Released on June 17, 2008. Seriously, integrated intel GPUs beat these (GTX280) in performance and they're supported by nouveau.

https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Nvidia-GeForce-GTX-280-vs-Intel-Iris-Pro-HD-6200-Desktop/m8413vsm30277 

#304 (LTS Drivers)

supports Geforce 600 to Geforce 6. No reason to even have these.

[Fabio Erculiani]

I still have GT620, 800 cards around and I'm using LTS kernels with 3xx.xx drivers on those machines.

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 Fabio Erculiani

[Jerrod Frost]

And those are supported by the 410 drivers that go all the way back to GeForce 600s. Is there a need for the 3xx.xx drivers? Everything older is supported by nouveau.

[Jerrod Frost]

Fabio, Can you test and let us know if the 410.XX drivers are truly viable for Geforce 600 and 800 Series cards? Just because they claim support doesn't mean they actually work for all implementations. (some AIB partners may not work which was my experience with Nvidia's "GO" Series onboard GPUs from years ago.)

Does anyone else object or see a reason to be concerned over the dropping of previous drivers? I'd like to see this thread light up with comments at the very least acknowledging this option. Its less to maintain, still offers support, and even simplifies our system to not depend on various driver versions. My old Go Series even though supported in several nvidia-drivers version at the time just didn't work unless it was on nouveau, so this could even be better for older GPU users.

[Geaaru]

so hereinafter the possibilities:

1) Drop support to nvidia-drivers of all legacy cards in all our kernels. For this probably it's needed to fix something to gpu-configuration script on sabayon-live package.

2) Drop support to nvidia-drivers of legacy only for kernel where nvidia-drivers are not compilable

3) FWIS it seems that probably there are unofficial patches for 390 and 340 but it's needed to investigate

4) other ?

That the voting is open!

Regards,

G.

P.S. What kernel for ISO at the end ? 4.14 or 4.19 ?

[Jerrod Frost]

4.19 is latest LTS and 4.14 has NO Ryzen APU support and I'm not sure it even has Ryzen optimisation or amdgpu support so it cuts out a large user base. I don't see 4.14 kernel as a realistic option. Even if we don't drop 390.XX we win nothing to keep 340.xx and older IMHO.

[Daniele Rondina]

From my side... +1 for point 2 and move iso to 4.19. If we found the patch to nvidia-drivers for 390 and 340 we could apply later.

G.

[sabayonino]

Hi after GCC update , filezilla won't start anymore

$ filezilla
Reading locale option from /home/saba/.config/filezilla/filezilla.xml
Fatal Error: Mismatch between the program and library build versions
detected.
The library used 3.0 (wchar_t,compiler with C++ ABI 1010,wx
containers,compatible with 2.8),
and your program used 3.0 (wchar_t,compiler with C++ ABI 1011,wx
containers,compatible with 2.8).
Aborted (core dumped)

and see also :
https://forum.sabayon.org/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=35025&p=183287&sid=69bd259b343a32bb9f48e305c27c0c44#p183284


I solved recompiling wxGTK versions on my system.

Thanks.
Regards

[Jerrod Frost]

So https://www.if-not-true-then-false.com/2015/fedora-nvidia-guide/ has a screenshot of someone using 4.20 kernel, nvidia 415.27 and 410.93 drivers, with a Geforce GT 650M graphics card on fedora 29. No patching required.

I think this is all the proof we need to drop all nvidia-drivers older than 410.XX and rewrite our scripts to send everything older to nouveau. Anyone disagree? 410 is an LTS driver.

[Joost Ruis]

So have we decided on this yet?

[Jerrod Frost]

I've not seen any counter argument. I say we move forward with this plan.

[Geaaru]

So, for recap, hereinafter tasks todo:

* update gpu-configuration (sabayon-live) for drop legacy driver

* for kernel driver probably we could compile the old drivers where the kernel is supported (for maintains cards used by lxnay) but only as package installable manually by users. On ISO we move ahead and for legacy cards we use nouveau.

Do we are all agreed ?

G.

[Jerrod Frost]

Cards used by lxnay (Geforce 600 Series) are supported by nvidia-drivers. Anything older than Geforce 600 Series (Geforce 500 and lower) should go to nouveau.

[Mihai Dobrescu]

So, basically, somebody decided to ditch my 560Ti card which works fine and to make me spend another 100-200 Euros to buy another card because ...? What is so hard to maintain? It's a simple patch, see here https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1091028-start-0.html.

Probably, in the next year my laptop would be also legacy, who cares for 16 GB of RAM, i7-3630QM, nVidia 650M? Buy another as long as we must consume! We are cows living to be milked, right?

Don't worry, luckly I can fix the system myself, there are many spending time to fix these things.

And I confirm, Nouveau is absolutely unusable on my 560Ti, at least. It's like watching an old black and white analogue television with a lousy antenna.

And I don't play games, just doing graphics...

Sorry to bother you!

[Fabio Erculiani]

Nouveau is pretty much unusable to me.

 Fabio Erculiani

[Jerrod Frost]

Nouveau doesn't work with the 560Ti? It claims it does. Can you test and return back with results?

Fabio, you said you were using GeForce 600 series and newer which are supported by the 410.XX drivers. You'd still be using nvidia-drivers.

[Fabio Erculiani]

I think with one of the cards the nvidia drivers told me (in kernel log messages) to use the 39x.something drivers.

I am almost sure it was a GT620, but I can check again.

--

 Fabio Erculiani

[Jerrod Frost]

I finally just got to part you said nouveau was unusable. Can you post some pictures so we can see what you see?  I'd like to look up your issues and see if it's a nouveau issue or misconfigured somehow through auto detection.

[Jerrod Frost]

Try upgrading to 410.XX drivers.

[Mihai Dobrescu]

It claims it works? So what? Does it matter you see pictures, text, even movies... in a hard way? Like falling apart? I've tried Nouveau last year, during my tests for lookig to make Celestia work without specifying the libs paths.

That was true horror. I could not make it sync vertically at all. Looked kind of interlaced too... I might be retarded at configuring it.

Still, applying the Gentoo's forum patches to nVidia works on 4.20. They even have an ebuild. I don't think there's something better than nVidia's drivers with all their issues.

[Jerrod Frost]

Yes it does matter. Bugs need filed if there is a problem. And I need to test/resolve if possible. Nouveau changes and grows with every kernel release so testing a year ago isn't the equivalent of testing it today. Beyond the kernel changes, mesa changes and grows as well. Does Ubuntu have this issue? What are they doing to mitigate this? They don't come with nvidia-drivers pre installed. That means it's using vesa or nouveau. I'm curious what other distros are doing here. Please understand, we're not removing support for your GPU. We just don't see any need to use, by default, proprietary drivers where the open source ones provide appropriate support. I want to properly investigate the problem and see if nouveau is an appropriate alternative for the 500 series. If yes, I need to find why you're experiencing issues and get them resolved. 

And being realistic, unless your GPU is in a laptop, 100-200 for a supported GPU replacement is not realistic as you can get a GT 710 NEW for ~40 pounds on Amazon. If you wish to avoid proprietary drivers the R7 250X 1G is 50 pounds on Amazon. Back to nvidia-drivers for a GTX1050Ti for 50 pounds. 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kurphy-GTX1050TI-128Bit-Graphics-Gaming/dp/B07LGY321K/ref=sr_1_5?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1549924587&sr=1-5&refinements=p_36%3A428446031 

Upgrading your GPU could also save you enough money to pay itself off over time. 1050 ti is 75W. Your 560 Ti is 180W. Nvidia's drivers aren't all amazing as they would have you believe. My Geforce 6150SE doesn't work and hasn't worked with ANY nvidia-drivers since I've owned it and requires nouveau. If you'd like to join the testing team, I'd be glad to have someone who can test older nvidia GPUs as I don't have any. I've been primarily AMD/ATI until my GTX 1080Ti which I've sold to purchase a Radeon VII. 

Thanks,

darksurf

[Jerrod Frost]

Also, as a note. If you cannot get the 500 series working on nouveau with my assistance, we can keep the 390.XX series which support goes back to through the geforce 400 series. This still means we can drop the 340.XX drivers resulting in only 2 versions (410.XX and 390.XX). Lets please begin testing soon. I want to have a decision before release date next month. that means I need tests performed and information verified before then. if you need to reach me quickly for testing etc. ping me using hangouts at piroi...@gmail.com I'll do what I can to help you dig and get info. If it works, we'll ditch 390.XX and below, it it doesn't, we still ditch 340.XX drivers.

Thanks,

darksurf

[Mihai Dobrescu]

I'm always willing to help, but ...

1. I am in EU, I pay for delivery almost half of the price of a card and I need warranty services too. So amazon it's out of question unless they have something I can't buy here (for instance my Klipsch system).

2. Why would I use Nouveau as long as I like nVidia?

3. The effort to patch the drivers is so small.

4. Cuda?

5. Ubuntu is a true failure for me, it died in two hours each time I have installed it. I rather trust Arch forums for problem solving...

6. Last time I have had issues with Nouveau (and right now with other major problems) nobody could help me properly.

7. I use Sabayon since version 6 and I didn't re-installed it since then, unless I have got a new PC or for testing reasons. I know the times to have something solved on Linux, I don't see much change from year to year due to the lack of support from many vendors. I don't believe Nouveau will work.

8. I see only dischord and disbelief in all open projects, everybody is doing a fork rather than collaborate in one direction. This is the trend and it's counterproductive.

In the end, I'll tell you what I have told to KDE team too: I - as user - should be served by the software and not viceversa. I understand that are impossible things, that are hard things (to achieve), as I am software developer myself, but I see too much shortcuts and patches in this field of work lately that make life a hell when it shouldn't. It becomes unacceptable. for a user, especially when it's not a technical person.

I can try nouveau for you, but configuring it should be a flawless short proces rather than tuning a lot to achieve what I get by 30 minutes of work on nVidias proprietary drivers to build them on 4.20.

[Jerrod Frost]

I don't disagree with the idea that the software should service the user. 

CUDA doesn't depend on nvidia-drivers.

As for switching to nouveau, you may need to remove a blacklist and eselect opengl set xorg-x11. There should be instructions on the wiki. Tests are greatly appreciated. Thank you. 

[Mihai Dobrescu]

I have said that I have installed Nouveau once, so I know how to. The results, however, were disappointing. Unless you know how to make Nouveau usable, it's pointless.

Also, CUDA depends on the proprietary drivers, they say everywhere...

And what's the point of having it if you don't use it?

And here, the question: do we spend more time on discussing this rather than maintaining a small package build?

[Jerrod Frost]

If you wish to help, I urge you to do so. Patching the drivers creates more churn than just Nvidia drivers. We also deal with other things that are outside the kernel such as ZFS. The more dependencies slowing down our ability to upgrade the kernel, the larger the annoyance. We also have to update scripts to check GPUs and manage between driver versions. It's not all cut and dry as you seem to believe. More time and effort goes into this than you realize.

As for CUDA, I apologize as I don't use it and figured the separation of the toolkit and sdk from the driver meant it worked without the proprietary driver. If you're pushing compilation with CUDA, once again upgrading your card could most likely save you money.

I can always use more testers so we can have more valid info to make appropriate judgements.  I have to rely on forums and documentation for hardware I don't have and make decisions from there. So please test where you can and report back with logs and feedback.

Thanks,

Darksurf

[Jerrod Frost]

I just realized my report didn't go to the sabayon group but to one individual, resending.

GeForce 560 already doesn't work on live boot because 410.XX drivers are loaded and ignore all GeForce 500 and lower cards. Boot in safe mode to use vesa and get installation. 

After install, using nouveau by default. Basic desktop compositing works smooth. No issues in productivity tasks. Moving onto gaming. Unigine heaven benchmark gets 7-8fps 1280x720 low no AA. Seems like 3D acceleration is limited for some reason?

Alt+shift+f12 disable compositing

No change.

Upgrade from 4.14 driver to 4.20 . Strange issue where screen not found. Modprobe nouveau, works. Restart lightdm, login, test. Same fps.

Glxgears fullacreen seems to get about 60fps

Switched to GTX580

4.20 kernel has issues with nouveau...
Actually appears to be /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist.conf still has nouveau blacklist. Issue resolved.

Glxgears fullscreen gets 60fps. Unigine heaven gets 10fps.

Swap in GTX 460. Works immediately. Compositing works OK, minor screen tearing. Glxgears gets 60fps fullscreen. Unigine heaven 5-7 fps.

Switched to nvidia-drivers 390.XX. required downgrade to 4.18 kernel.

GTX 460 nvidia-drivers failed to open drm device. Stuck in CLI. Nouveau not loaded, but checking to be sure.

echo blacklist nouveau > /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist-nvidia-nouveau.conf 
echo options nouveau modeset=0 > /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist-nvidia-nouveau.conf 

Sabayon-dracut --rebuild-all

Removed xorg.conf

Eselect opengl set nvidia

Issue resolved. 

GTX 460 unigine gets 40-70fps.
GTX 560 unigine gets mid 40s-70fps
GTX 580 unigine gets mid 40s- mid 70s fps


Began digging into 3D acceleration limitations. It seems Fermi (Geforce 400/500 cards) do not have reclocking support in nouveau meaning the run at the lowest possible power setting. Geforce 600 and newer cards can have issues when nouveau enables unsupported opengl features by default that the cards can't handle like lighting effects which happen beyond opengl 4.1 for example.

For now it appears the GPU and driver script needs updated and 340.XX can be dropped. But with my recent testing, I cannot with good conscience request removal of 390.XX drivers. These cards still have some performant life to them still yet albeit on low or medium-low graphical settings with high power consumption.

Decision with this is made. 410.XX and 390.XX drivers will be the only ones currently supported. 340.XX will be dropped.

Thanks,

Darksurf