Rails 3 RC
Ken Foust
Tex
Jeremy Kemper
jeremy
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Fernando Perez
Marcelo de Moraes Serpa
On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 1:29 PM, Marnen Laibow-Koser
<li...@ruby-forum.com> wrote:
> Ken Foust wrote:
>> What happened to the release????
>
> And not a blog post since 8 June. Not impressed. Hey, core team: we
> understand that this is an open-source effort, but keep us updated when
> you miss your deadlines, 'K?
>
> Best,
> --
> Marnen Laibow-Koser
> http://www.marnen.org
> mar...@marnen.org
> --
> Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
>
Marcelo de Moraes Serpa
>least some of the core team (such as DHH) are paid by 37signals for the
>specific purpose of working on Rails (am I wrong about this?). That
>being the case, "they also have lives" is a lame excuse.
>Besides, even if it were a volunteer effort, it's a major project. When
>a blog post comes out on 2 June promising a release in a couple of days,
>and it's now 24 July, I don't think it's inappropriate to get impatient
>for a release or an explanation of the delay. Heck, if they asked for
>help, they might get some, but this silence is bad if the core team want
>to keep their credibility. Why should I trust a core team that can't
>get its act together to take 2 minutes to write a blog post explaining
>why the release was delayed?
Well, it might be just me -- I'm excited about Rails 3, but I don't
really need it right now. To be honest, I haven't even been following
closely, didn't even know about the release dates, so maybe my
judgement was too subjective. We probably won't get any solid answers
from this mailing list, as I rarely see core-members around.
Best,
Marcelo.
On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 1:41 PM, Marnen Laibow-Koser
<li...@ruby-forum.com> wrote:
> Marnen Laibow-Koser wrote:
>> Marcelo de Moraes Serpa wrote:
>>> Let them work, they also have lives. C'mon guys.
>>
>> Rails is not entirely a volunteer effort; my understanding is that at
>> least some of the core team (such as DHH) are paid by 37signals for the
>> specific purpose of working on Rails (am I wrong about this?). That
>> being the case, "they also have lives" is a lame excuse.
>>
>> Besides, even if it were a volunteer effort, it's a major project. When
>> a blog post comes out on 2 June promising a release in a couple of days,
>> and it's now 24 July,
>
> Oops, 8 June, not 2 June. Still bad.
Jeremy Kemper
<li...@ruby-forum.com> wrote:
> Marcelo de Moraes Serpa wrote:
>
> least some of the core team (such as DHH) are paid by 37signals for the
> specific purpose of working on Rails (am I wrong about this?). That
> being the case, "they also have lives" is a lame excuse.
>
> Besides, even if it were a volunteer effort, it's a major project. When
> a blog post comes out on 2 June promising a release in a couple of days,
> and it's now 24 July, I don't think it's inappropriate to get impatient
> for a release or an explanation of the delay. Heck, if they asked for
> help, they might get some, but this silence is bad if the core team want
> to keep their credibility. Why should I trust a core team that can't
> get its act together to take 2 minutes to write a blog post explaining
> why the release was delayed?
This should help clear things up: http://bit.ly/diXfGx
But really. Real soon now.
jeremy
Marnen Laibow-Koser
Oh, that was classy from a member of the core team. Not.
That attitude could get me (and probably a lot of others) to quit using
Rails. And I'm a Rabid Rails Fanboy [TM].
>
> But really. Real soon now.
>
> jeremy
Best,
Jeremy Kemper
<li...@ruby-forum.com> wrote:
> Jeremy Kemper wrote:
>> On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 11:40 AM, Marnen Laibow-Koser
>> <li...@ruby-forum.com> wrote:
>>> and it's now 24 July, I don't think it's inappropriate to get impatient
>>> for a release or an explanation of the delay. �Heck, if they asked for
>>> help, they might get some, but this silence is bad if the core team want
>>> to keep their credibility. �Why should I trust a core team that can't
>>> get its act together to take 2 minutes to write a blog post explaining
>>> why the release was delayed?
>>
>> This should help clear things up: http://bit.ly/diXfGx
>
> Oh, that was classy from a member of the core team. Not.
>
> That attitude could get me (and probably a lot of others) to quit using
> Rails. And I'm a Rabid Rails Fanboy [TM].
An attitude of entitlement just rubs everyone wrong and doesn't move
the project forward. Your annoyance is understandable but, alone, it
is not constructive.
Ultimately, your message is spot-on. It has been a while and many are
on pins and needles waiting for a non-beta gem to munch on. Real soon
now.
We, too, are pretty annoyed that the release candidate has dragged on,
but we want a candidate we'd feel comfortable deploying to production
with our own apps. Thankfully, we've had tons of people testing the
betas and bringing the polish up to release quality. That means a
short RC cycle.
Check out http://github.com/rails/rails/compare/v3.0.0.beta4...master
for a sense of the work that has been going into this. This release is
going to rock.
jeremy
Greg Donald
> This should help clear things up: http://bit.ly/diXfGx
Lol. Thanks, I needed that!
--
Greg Donald
destiney.com | gregdonald.com
Greg Donald
<li...@ruby-forum.com> wrote:
> Oh, that was classy from a member of the core team. Not.
Get over it. No one wants to hear your bitching and moaning.
> That attitude could get me (and probably a lot of others) to quit using
> Rails. And I'm a Rabid Rails Fanboy [TM].
So quit. No one is holding a gun to your head. I'm sure Rasmus and
the Zend team would love to have you.
Marnen Laibow-Koser
> On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 12:21 PM, Marnen Laibow-Koser
> <li...@ruby-forum.com> wrote:
>>> This should help clear things up: http://bit.ly/diXfGx
>>
>> Oh, that was classy from a member of the core team. Not.
>>
>> That attitude could get me (and probably a lot of others) to quit using
>> Rails. And I'm a Rabid Rails Fanboy [TM].
>
> An attitude of entitlement just rubs everyone wrong and doesn't move
> the project forward.
What attitude of entitlement? I don't think I have one here. What I
*do* have, however, is an expectation that once a release estimate is
made, either a release or a revised estimate should follow, not 6 weeks
of silence. Is that unreasonable?
> Your annoyance is understandable but, alone, it
> is not constructive.
Neither is your silence. And your insults certainly aren't. Your
latest message is, for which I thank you.
>
> Ultimately, your message is spot-on. It has been a while and many are
> on pins and needles waiting for a non-beta gem to munch on. Real soon
> now.
I'm not so much impatient waiting for a release. Rather, I just think
better communication would be helpful. I'm already sold on Rails -- I
really, really love it. However, if I were sitting on the fence right
now -- say, switching from PHP or Java, and evaluating Ruby, Rails,
Sinatra, Python, Django, $RAILS_COMPETITOR... -- I'd think twice about
adopting a technology that has this sort of support from its core team.
In other words, I don't fundamentally care that much whether Rails 3 is
released in August or December. I just think that whatever is decided,
it should be better communicated.
>
> We, too, are pretty annoyed that the release candidate has dragged on,
> but we want a candidate we'd feel comfortable deploying to production
> with our own apps.
I appreciate that. Again, the time is not the problem. The lack of
communication is.
> Thankfully, we've had tons of people testing the
> betas and bringing the polish up to release quality. That means a
> short RC cycle.
>
> Check out http://github.com/rails/rails/compare/v3.0.0.beta4...master
> for a sense of the work that has been going into this. This release is
> going to rock.
Who cares how much it rocks if it never sees the light of day?
Robert Calco
Who cares how much it rocks if it never sees the light of day?
I totally sold a client on Rails 3 for a major project 2 months ago, on the assumption its release was as immanent as promised, and (Go Figure!) I heard the very same concern from that client about their project just yesterday.
I was looking at Padrino recently and rather like it. It's a young framework, nowhere near as mature, but has an interesting architectural "value prop"... and at least so far I haven't gotten any STFUs from the development team. :)
- Bob
>
> jeremy
Best,
--
Marnen Laibow-Koser
http://www.marnen.org
mar...@marnen.org
--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
--
Fernando Perez
This kind of answer is from whimps, not from successful business men. We
want an accurate date i.e: 25th of July 2010 12am? Sooner? Later?
At least keep us informed of what's going on! RC is gonna be delayed?
Not a big deal if you warn us about such delays.
An no, switching is not that easy, having to learn a new language, a new
framework, idioms, porting code, etc takes a lot of time.
37signals publishes books and articles on how to be a better coder, be
successful, haha, you don't seem to follow the principles you teach!
Marcelo de Moraes Serpa
not only the software, but the process behind it, too. Do we complain
when Blizzard says a new title will be done 'when it's done'? I would
not promise anything to my clients based on unreleased software, by
the way! We already have a track of releases for Rails, so I'm sure it
won't be a Rails Nuke'em forever. Just enjoy life and be more patient.
Greg Donald
Rails release dates are in no way keeping you from learning Ruby or
Rails 2. Stop whining.
> a new
> framework, idioms, porting code, etc takes a lot of time.
Like I told the last guy, no one is holding a gun to your head. Go
play with PHP or ASP if the Rails release dates don't suite you. You
won't be missed, I promise.
Ken Foust
> What happened to the release????
well i like it and it is working
that is the important part.
I will probably have a year at least on rail 3 before rails 4 so i am
happy jumping in at the leading edge
I just need a complex tutorial like a mini ebay
Greg Donald
> Release dates? There is no release date!
I'm well aware of this fact. This thread is full of cry-babies who
seem to think there is a release date, or that one has passed already.
> And why are you talking about learning ruby and rails2? We are talking
> about rails3 here! Did you post to the wrong thread?
No. There is nothing wrong with learning Rails 2 if you don't
currently know Rails at all.
> Ever heard about barriers to exit at college? Paid professional work
> requires more than just "playing" with a new language like you suggest.
I work in genetics research at a medical university. I am presently
writing a Rails 3 application using Ruby 1.9.2-preview3. I am not
playing with anything but your girlfriend.
Greg Donald
> Okay now go play with your chromosomes while we talk about customers
> falling on our back, and development being held back.
Again, no one is stopping you from creating a Rails3 app. There is a
set of beta4 gems that are working fine for me and my colleagues. I
have found no real show-stoppers.
> Is the no release dates a habit in the ruby/rails ecosystem?
It doesn't matter. We have Rails2 and it works great. We have Rails3
beta4 and it works well enough to begin doing development. At some
point the 3.0 will arrive, but it's no big deal if it's not today.
> Because the
> developer of TextMate fell into this trap and now he suffers from it.
> Even Debian is moving away from that paradigm!
Who cares? If you are unhappy with Rails then use something else.
They don't care about your "business schedule" or whatever, and no one
here wants to hear you complain.
Alan Gutierrez
> Marcelo de Moraes Serpa wrote:
>
> least some of the core team (such as DHH) are paid by 37signals for the
> specific purpose of working on Rails (am I wrong about this?). That
> being the case, "they also have lives" is a lame excuse.
>
> Besides, even if it were a volunteer effort, it's a major project. When
> a blog post comes out on 2 June promising a release in a couple of days,
> for a release or an explanation of the delay. Heck, if they asked for
> help, they might get some, but this silence is bad if the core team want
> to keep their credibility. Why should I trust a core team that can't
> get its act together to take 2 minutes to write a blog post explaining
> why the release was delayed?
To paraphrase:
What am I paying you guys for? I demand *my* money's worth!
--
Alan Gutierrez - al...@blogometer.com - http://twitter.com/bigeasy
Alan Gutierrez
> On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Marnen Laibow-Koser
> <li...@ruby-forum.com <mailto:li...@ruby-forum.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
> Who cares how much it rocks if it never sees the light of day?
>
>
> I totally sold a client on Rails 3 for a major project 2 months ago, on
> the assumption its release was as immanent as promised, and (Go Figure!)
> I heard the very same concern from that client about their project just
> yesterday.
What promise? Citation would be nice.
Marnen Laibow-Koser
> Marnen Laibow-Koser wrote:
>> and it's now 24 July, I don't think it's inappropriate to get impatient
>> for a release or an explanation of the delay. Heck, if they asked for
>> help, they might get some, but this silence is bad if the core team want
>> to keep their credibility. Why should I trust a core team that can't
>> get its act together to take 2 minutes to write a blog post explaining
>> why the release was delayed?
>
> To paraphrase:
>
> What am I paying you guys for? I demand *my* money's worth!
Uh, what? That's not what I meant at all. I'm not demanding my
"money's worth". In fact, I'm not *demanding* anything.
I don't see how it's unreasonable to point out what I pointed out: that
saying "we'll have something in a couple of days" followed by 6 weeks of
silence reflects poorly on the core team. The core team may do what
they see fit with that information.
>
> --
> Alan Gutierrez - al...@blogometer.com - http://twitter.com/bigeasy
Best,
Marnen Laibow-Koser
[...]
> Pop quiz:
> ---------
> Greg Donald's statement "If you are unhappy with Rails then use
> something else [...] and no one here wants to hear you complain" is:
>
> 1. Anti-democratic
> 2. Against the 1st amendment of the United States Constitution
> 3. Against article #19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights
> 4. All the above
Probably 1 only (and inaccurate). Certainly none of the others. I'm as
frustrated as anybody else here, but I don't think I'm being repressed.
Best,
--
Marnen Laibow-Koser
http://www.marnen.org
mar...@marnen.org
Dee
terse an answer. Growing pains. I think everyone appreciates the work
that goes into Rails. Can I hear a "Hell yeah"?
At this huge code factory place I used to work (I forgot the name,
it's been a while) we had three mailing lists where the devs were
encouraged to announce new features, feature changes, and bug fixes.
Just a short note like, "New Feature: Hal9000 can now read lips."
Besides keeping everyone informed, it had the unexpected benefit
giving the devs that illusive sense of accomplishment, like when you
can check something off. A ton of "nice job" mails would come in and
you felt good about your work, even while filling out those *&%$! TPS
coversheets. Lighthouse alone doesn't give us that. It's good at
tracking bugs/issue but it doesn't allow someone to see what's going
on, have the pulse of the whole.
If the status was communicated more clearly, more often in a single
place, no one will care if it's late as long as they have something to
tell their dev-team, managers and clients. (Well, very few -- can't
please everybody.)
Just a thought.
Dee
Marnen Laibow-Koser
> I politely hinted at a similar question yesterday and got a similarly
> terse an answer. Growing pains. I think everyone appreciates the work
> that goes into Rails. Can I hear a "Hell yeah"?
HELL YEAH!
(Everything I've said here has been from the point of view of wanting
Rails to keep kicking ass.)
[...]
> If the status was communicated more clearly, more often in a single
> place, no one will care if it's late as long as they have something to
> tell their dev-team, managers and clients. (Well, very few -- can't
> please everybody.)
Exactly. That's what I meant about silence being more of an issue than
lateness.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Dee
Greg Donald
<li...@ruby-forum.com> wrote:
> Exactly. That's what I meant about silence being more of an issue than
> lateness.
They are in no way being silent and NOTHING is late. Take your whiny
ass over to the dashboard and you can see EXACTLY what is going on:
https://rails.lighthouseapp.com/dashboard
Bunch of fucking cry-babies. geez.
Greg Donald
<li...@ruby-forum.com> wrote:
> If name-calling is the best you can do, please don't bother.
Truth hurts.
David Kahn
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Sticks and stones may break my bones but whips and chains excite me.
...
Ooops, sorry. Wrong list :)
(Probably going to get banned for that)
yannimac
correct list of the remaining bugs? I was watching it a few weeks ago
and they removed the milestone, but they added it back a few days
ago.. only 2 tickets in the milestone right now, so it looks like its
close to finished. Maybe that will give you guys a warm fuzzy feeling
about 3.0... I personally don't care what the version tag says.
I started converting my most complex app to Rails 3 about a month ago
with the expectation that the code was almost ready based on the blog
from dhh. I was planning on pulling the trigger for the production
switchover when RC was available. But now that I have been running on
beta4, I don't see the point in waiting. My app has been tested
extensively and is running great on rails 3, and it really doesn't
matter to me what the version label is if it works. There are going
to be outstanding tickets regardless of what version they are on.. I
mean hell, 2.3.9 has 52 open tickets right now in LH. In my
experience (albeit, limited with one app on Rails 3), the code is
solid and you can figure out workarounds for any minor bug that you
might find. When RC or final 3.0 comes out I don't really expect to
have to change much (if anything).
I understand the frustration since dhh said it would be ready in
"days" ;-) And I felt some of that frustration until I finished the
conversion and testing a few days ago. Start using Rails 3 now! You
will not regret it... there are plenty of people using it with no
problems including me. FYI.. I saw gemcutter just completed their
conversion to Rails 3.
Marnen Laibow-Koser
> On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 3:23 PM, Marnen Laibow-Koser
> <li...@ruby-forum.com> wrote:
>> If name-calling is the best you can do, please don't bother.
>
> Truth hurts.
Which is why your name-calling didn't hurt. It just saddened me,
because IMHO name-calling has no place on a forum such as this one -- it
just cheapens the level of discourse and threatens the Rails community
that I think we all love.
And that's as far as I'm going to take this issue. It's off topic here,
and it's hijacking an important thread.
>
>
> --
> Greg Donald
> destiney.com | gregdonald.com
--
Marnen Laibow-Koser
http://www.marnen.org
mar...@marnen.org
Sent from my iPhone
Marcelo de Moraes Serpa
amount of effort needed to complete a still abstract task. That's why
agility prays fast, simple iterations, say no, cut the bloat. In the
case of Rails, it's really more passion than deadlines involved, not
to mention it is a collaborative remote effort from people around the
world, the process will be kind of chaotic, in the good sense.
Now, I'm not advocating the approach the core-team uses, sometimes
they go over the edge with their arrogancy, although this is changing
as more people get into the 'elite' sphere (i.e getting more diverse),
but I do think that this is a direct consequence of all the stupidity
that you often see around a highly-hyped topic such as Rails and other
IT topics. It is like selecting "friends". There are just too many
people that want fast / magical results or nerds that love to troll.
Marcelo.
Marcelo de Moraes Serpa
Cheers,
Marcelo.
cageface
> Truth hurts.
So does unnecessary rudeness.
Don't see any patches from you on the tracker by the way...
--
miles
Ryan Bigg
The name-calling, comparing of e-penises and general abusiveness stops
now.
You are mature members of the Ruby community and I would expect you to
act that way. What ever happened to MINASWAN (Matz Is Nice Always So We
Are Nice)? I'd expect this kind of behaviour from a PHP mailing list.
I respect the fact that you've been told that the release is "Any Time
Soon"(tm) and "Real Soon Now, Seriously!"(tm), but things come up that
stop the release from happening and postpone it. If you want to know
what's holding up this release, check out the Rails lighthouse and the
Bundler tracker. To the best of my knowledge, there will not be a Rails
release candidate released until there is a Bundler release candidate.
This is purely speculation on my part, but it makes perfect sense to me,
and hopefully to you.
We've all been waiting a while for this release to come out. But what is
stopping you from using it right now? What makes the label of "release
candidate" so much more appealing when the difference between it and
right now could be 1 single documentation commit? There is absolutely
nothing stopping you from using it.
So I encourage all of you to:
1) Co-operate and act like respectable members of the community like you
all really are, not shit-flinging monkeys.
and
2) Try porting over one of your applications this weekend to Rails 3.
It's really not that difficult.
I have a friend, Chris Darroch, who's helping me port rboard
http://github.com/radar/rboard to Rails 3. Check out the progress on the
rails3 branch. As far as I know, we haven't ran into a single Rails bug.
All of our problems are because of something we've done or because we
needed to use a newer version of a plugin (named_scope instead of just
scope, for example).
If you want Rails 3 to be the best it can be, you can help by doing this
one small thing. Port your application and see if there's any bugs with
it and if they are, report them. I would hope the core team acts in a
better attitude than seen in this thread (but it's understandable, given
the ungratefulness witnessed) and help you to help us help you.
Enough fighting. I don't want to be a part of a community where people
fight over something so... irrelevant. We are *the best* community on
the web. Let's not tarnish that reputation by repeating the actions of
this thread.
Mark Gandolfo
We all work in software, we understand that fixed timeframe's don't
exist, and when they do we end up with Vista type scenarios.
To the core team, take your time, get things right..
Ryan Bigg
You have been around as long or longer than I have. I would have thought
by now you would have risen above the name-calling and generally
arrogant attitude. To me, you are a fellow senior member of the
community and it greatly saddens me to see somebody of your level acting
in such an immature fashion.
Telling people to leave the community is one sure fire way for them to
do that, and I'm sure deep down you don't want that to happen because
without people we are without community.
I'd like to thank you for being one of the few people who are not only
building a Rails 3 application, but also one of the few people using
Ruby 1.9.2.
Please consider the weight of your opinions before blasting those who do
not deserve it.
Greg Donald
> You have been around as long or longer than I have.
Cry babies who think the Rails core or community owes them something
can go cry somewhere else. Last I checked this is a place for
technical discussions, not crying over mismanaged business plans.
Rimantas Liubertas
> do that, and I'm sure deep down you don't want that to happen because
> without people we are without community.
Not everyone is good for community. I won't be sad a bit if some
leave.
Regards,
Rimantas
Ryan Bigg
> Cry babies who think the Rails core or community owes them something
> can go cry somewhere else.
Must you be so arrogant? What gives you the "right" to dictate where
people should go?
Please act like a respectable member.
Rimantas Liubertas
> people should go?
>
> Please act like a respectable member.
Care to elaborate why do you have a right to tell others how to act?
Regards,
Rimantas
Ryan Bigg
I was not telling anybody else how to act. I was simply asking
(indicated by the word "Please" at the start of the sentence) that he
act like a "respectable member".
**Please** do not misconstrue what I write.
Rimantas Liubertas
> (indicated by the word "Please" at the start of the sentence) that he
> act like a "respectable member".
>
> **Please** do not misconstrue what I write.
Cannot stop from telling (sorry, "asking") others
what to do?
When why do you misconstrue what others write?
Let's see:
Greg:
>> Cry babies who think the Rails core or community owes them something
>> can go cry somewhere else.
Ryan:
>Must you be so arrogant? What gives you the "right" to dictate where
>people should go?
Nobody dictated anything. Merely a notion that cry babies CAN go
cry somewhere else.
Regards,
Rimantas
Ryan Bigg
So (and I guess it's my turn to potentially misconstrue) what you're
saying is that the people who apparently are interested in the future of
Rails should leave?
I think this isn't a very positive attitude to have. These people who
are interested in Rails will be the people who tell their friends about
it and then they'll tell their friends about it. These are the people we
should be **helping** rather than **berating**. Although I've been on
that side of the fence too, but I realised it is the wrong side to be
on.
I understand their whinging is annoying, but acting in some of the ways
we've seen in this thread is not appropriate, **especially** for core
members. We need to work together as a community to make this release
the best release it can be.
If people want to know what's holding up the release then we should be
pointing them (in a positive fashion, a la Ruby community, not RTFBT
(read the f*cking bug tracker) a la PHP/C community) to the Bundler
tracker: http://github.com/carlhuda/bundler/issues which at the very top
lists all the bugs that need to be fixed before a 1.0 release candidate
comes out. I'll reiterate my opinion: I think that there won't be a
Rails release candidate without a Bundler release candidate.
As for the people who aren't good for this community, I so far see two
of them in this entire thread and let me tell you: they aren't the
people who are whining that Rails 3 isn't out yet. They're on the other
side of that particular fence. Maybe they should leave?
Michael Schuerig
> As for the people who aren't good for this community, I so far see
> two of them in this entire thread and let me tell you: they aren't
> the people who are whining that Rails 3 isn't out yet. They're on
> the other side of that particular fence. Maybe they should leave?
To get an idea of the impact that certain people leaving would have on
the community, I suggest writing a script to count the number of
contributions to the mailing list that the people involved in this
thread have made over the years.
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:mic...@schuerig.de
http://www.schuerig.de/michael/
Ryan Bigg
> On Monday 26 July 2010, Ryan Bigg wrote:
>
>> As for the people who aren't good for this community, I so far see
>> two of them in this entire thread and let me tell you: they aren't
>> the people who are whining that Rails 3 isn't out yet. They're on
>> the other side of that particular fence. Maybe they should leave?
>
> To get an idea of the impact that certain people leaving would have on
> the community, I suggest writing a script to count the number of
> contributions to the mailing list that the people involved in this
> thread have made over the years.
Again with the e-penis comparisons. Jeez.
I personally couldn't give a crap (and you shouldn't either) about how
many contributions they've made to the mailing list. The manner in which
they are acting now is not beneficial to the community. If they were
even decent members then they'd be decent *all the time*. Making x
contributions to the mailing list doesn't give you the right to act in
the manner seen in this thread.
If you don't like that somebody is whinging because Rails 3 isn't out
yet, there are better ways of dealing with it than calling them
crybabies, like not replying at all or, as I said earlier, pointing them
in a professional manner at the relevant issue tracker.
Before you point it out, yes I've done this too but I've seen the error
of my ways and I'm looking to fix them.
Oldroy
1. Bundler needs to go to rc1 - maybe in a few days with no bugs -
maybe in a couple weeks with lots of bugs.
That may be all - but.....if that isn't the last issue here are next
couple of issues that seem important.
2. ActiveRecord is about half as fast as it was in rails 2.3.5 - it
won't remain that way. There is a lot of stuff and junk that has to be
cleared out of it - it will probably be a couple of weeks before jose
valim and possibly wycats turn their attention to a major clean up of
active record to get old stuff out of the way.
3. Memory leaks......seems to me that you wouldn't wan't to deploy a
high traffic site with beta4 and ruby 1.9.2 rc..x... until the memory
issues are taken care of. That might be a ruby 1.9.2 issue...it might
be a rails issue, that is beyond me at the moment.
If I were a betting man, and I'm not, I'd bet we will see rails 3 rc1
within two weeks, and we may see it in the next 4 or 5 days (today
being July 25, 2010)
This is a (somewhat) educated guess after following the "f*cking bug
tracker" (is there just a "bug tracker"?) and reading through what to
me would be the most important issues. (And if a bug is on the "bug
tracker" how does it get bumped up to the "f"cking bug tracer"??)
My best guess at the silence about what is going on? I dunno.... Seems
that one blog post or twitter post confirming the above would be all
that it would take now and all that it would have taken a month ago
just to let people who are interested what is going on. Part of the
big push for rails 3 is to expand not only what experts can do with
the system, but what beginners and intermediates can do, and to expand
the total base of users. This has been the stated goal of the core
team over and over. Not communicating is not the way you expand the
total base of users. And while whining about "where is it?" doesn't
help, how exaclty does it hurt? To paraphrase New Jersey's
governor...."you must be some of the thinnest skinned people I've ever
known".
If you are on the core team, and you don't get why people are excited
and confused and a little bit irritated at the lack of
communication....let me restate that, I don't know how you could not
understand after most of you have given presentation after
presentation about what is coming.
But this is an opportunity. You build a community by
communicating.......see that the root of both words is the same? You
build irritation by not communicating.
And those of you who want the noobs to take a ticket and fix it and
send the patch......how long have you been working in rails...a couple
years?? As a member of the ruby and rails community you can't give
others a couple of years to catch up - and in some cases - surpass
your ruby and rails skill?
And rails itself.....it's no accident that it took this long to re-
factor it. Rails 3 really is a lot of merb, isn't it? And only because
it was rebuilt with lots of new outside blood will it be as good as
it's going to be. All the more to look to the future of what will
rails 3 would have been without merb.....and what will rails 4 or 5 be
without @whineynoobgenius4 sticking around?
So listen up.....@dhh, @wycats, @josevalim, @spastorino etc. You have
a giant opportunity to sooth the massive amount of people who have
become interested, well, largely by your own efforts to attract their
interest. Use that opportunity to communicate and set a foundation for
some of the outside blood that is coming in. For every noob that you
find irritating and will disappear in a couple of months because they
can't pay their dues, there are 5 others that are irritated and will
pay their dues and may be on the rails 4 core team, if you are will to
communicate. Just a blog post or twitter post a day from one of you
will more than suffice. I've noticed a couple of those things in the
last day or two and it really helps.
And @jeremy/@bitsweet - good for you for speaking your mind, but the
FU stuff has a way of coming back to haunt you in things like client
negotiations. That post will be here for eons....and you have no idea
of all of the people who have seen it and taken note. If I had done
that it would keep me up at night.
So yes....everybody remain calm. Our long community nightmare is
almost over. A few days - couple of weeks at the outside, and people
can finish their gems and plugins, and books, and ide's and projects,
and hosting platforms and.....well, you get the idea...
There I've said it. I'll go back to the shadows now....
Greg Donald
> what you're
> saying is that the people who apparently are interested in the future of
> Rails should leave?
Cry babies who mismanaged their *cough* business plans, based on a
never-officially-announced Rails 3 release date, SHOULD go cry
somewhere else. This is a technical group and when someone starts
crying about how Rails 3 isn't out yet (oh woe is I), I will continue
to remind them to stop crying.
They can build their app in Rails 2 and bring it forward later.
There's an ebook for the transition:
http://www.railsupgradehandbook.com/
They can build their app in Rails 3 beta 4 and will already be 99%
ready for the 3.0 release.
Either way, please stop acting like it's OK for them to continue to cry.
Remember:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/urbanwide/244690884/
Yehuda Katz
Thanks for your attempts to put together a coherent answer for what's
happening based upon reading our public utterances.
Unfortunately, we don't always realize that out comments on the bug
tracker, on the Rails core list, on Twitter, etc. cannot easily be put
together to form a coherent understanding of the current status of
things. That said, as you have shown, there is sufficient public
information for an enterprising person to figure out what's happening.
I say that purely because we don't always realize that our scattered
communications can come across as silence, and this is something we
should work on improving.
Comments inline.
On Jul 25, 6:23 pm, Oldroy <roy.tsc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My best guess and a heavy dose of speculation for rails 3 rc1
> 1. Bundler needs to go to rc1 - maybe in a few days with no bugs -
> maybe in a couple weeks with lots of bugs.
correct. Keep an eye out for an announcement soon.
> That may be all - but.....if that isn't the last issue here are next
> couple of issues that seem important.
> 2. ActiveRecord is about half as fast as it was in rails 2.3.5 - it
> won't remain that way. There is a lot of stuff and junk that has to be
> cleared out of it - it will probably be a couple of weeks before jose
> valim and possibly wycats turn their attention to a major clean up of
> active record to get old stuff out of the way.
actively looking at the current state of performance in ActiveRecord.
The important open ticket is at
https://rails.lighthouseapp.com/projects/8994/tickets/5098-rails-3-beta-4-activerecord-5x-slower-than-rails-235
(which overstates the magnitude of the performance issue, but not the
reality of it). I recently commented on the ticket (https://
rails.lighthouseapp.com/projects/8994/tickets/5098-rails-3-beta-4-
activerecord-5x-slower-than-rails-235#ticket-5098-60). Aaron is
spending some time with Arel, which seems to be the crux of the
issue.
> 3. Memory leaks......seems to me that you wouldn't wan't to deploy a
> high traffic site with beta4 and ruby 1.9.2 rc..x... until the memory
> issues are taken care of. That might be a ruby 1.9.2 issue...it might
> be a rails issue, that is beyond me at the moment.
https://rails.lighthouseapp.com/projects/8994/tickets/5042-memory-leak-with-ruby-192-rails-30-beta-4
and https://rails.lighthouseapp.com/projects/8994/tickets/4183-possible-memory-leak-in-rails-3.
This is something we're actively looking into. This is likely a
problem in Ruby 1.9, but it may already be resolved (http://
redmine.ruby-lang.org/issues/show/3466#note-3). We're working with
Aman Gupta (memprof), and have so far been unable to reproduce this
issue. We are actively trying though.
>
> If I were a betting man, and I'm not, I'd bet we will see rails 3 rc1
> within two weeks, and we may see it in the next 4 or 5 days (today
> being July 25, 2010)
>
> This is a (somewhat) educated guess after following the "f*cking bug
> tracker" (is there just a "bug tracker"?) and reading through what to
> me would be the most important issues. (And if a bug is on the "bug
> tracker" how does it get bumped up to the "f"cking bug tracer"??)
>
> My best guess at the silence about what is going on? I dunno.... Seems
> that one blog post or twitter post confirming the above would be all
> that it would take now and all that it would have taken a month ago
> just to let people who are interested what is going on. Part of the
> big push for rails 3 is to expand not only what experts can do with
> the system, but what beginners and intermediates can do, and to expand
> the total base of users. This has been the stated goal of the core
> team over and over. Not communicating is not the way you expand the
> total base of users. And while whining about "where is it?" doesn't
> help, how exaclty does it hurt? To paraphrase New Jersey's
> governor...."you must be some of the thinnest skinned people I've ever
> known".
up to. We may not always be able to give a satisfactory response
(lately, it's been "as soon as we stop getting so many darn bugs"),
but it's a perfectly valid question to ask as often as you'd like.
> If you are on the core team, and you don't get why people are excited
> and confused and a little bit irritated at the lack of
> communication....let me restate that, I don't know how you could not
> understand after most of you have given presentation after
> presentation about what is coming.
something kick-ass, have talked a lot about it, and people want it. We
understand that fully. Thanks to the efforts of the community, we've
gotten a huge inflow of bugs, as well as feedback from plugin authors.
This is why RSpec, DataMapper, Haml, etc. are working flawlessly on
the Rails 3 betas. We've come a long way, and are closing in on the
finish-line.
> But this is an opportunity. You build a community by
> communicating.......see that the root of both words is the same? You
> build irritation by not communicating.
people to put the pieces together reasonably. I'm going to try to
resolve that in the weeks ahead.
> And those of you who want the noobs to take a ticket and fix it and
> send the patch......how long have you been working in rails...a couple
> years?? As a member of the ruby and rails community you can't give
> others a couple of years to catch up - and in some cases - surpass
> your ruby and rails skill?
bug tracker if there's interested in contributing, saying "it'll be
done when you start helping" is not actually that helpful. A lot of
people on this list, and out there in the world, aren't necessarily
capable of contributing, especially at this stage. The Bugmash project
(http://wiki.railsbridge.org/projects/1/wiki/BugMash), which
RailsBridge puts on periodically, is extremely helpful at getting new
contributors past the initial hurdles. Their contribution guidelines
are quite helpful as well.
> And rails itself.....it's no accident that it took this long to re-
> factor it. Rails 3 really is a lot of merb, isn't it? And only because
> it was rebuilt with lots of new outside blood will it be as good as
> it's going to be. All the more to look to the future of what will
> rails 3 would have been without merb.....and what will rails 4 or 5 be
> without @whineynoobgenius4 sticking around?
@josevalim, and @spastorino and @xaviernoria to the group of people
with commit access. Half a dozen or so more (Mikel Lindsaar, Neeraj
Singh, Andrew White, Rohit Arondekar, and some others I'm forgetting
atm) are actively participating in the day-to-day Rails 3 work. From
my vantage point, we have far more activity and regular infusions of
new blood today than we did when I started work on Rails 3 in January
2009. And I absolutely agree that continuing to support the
participation of new, interested developers is critical to the
progress of Rails in the years ahead.
> So listen up.....@dhh, @wycats, @josevalim, @spastorino etc. You have
> a giant opportunity to sooth the massive amount of people who have
> become interested, well, largely by your own efforts to attract their
> interest. Use that opportunity to communicate and set a foundation for
> some of the outside blood that is coming in. For every noob that you
> find irritating and will disappear in a couple of months because they
> can't pay their dues, there are 5 others that are irritated and will
> pay their dues and may be on the rails 4 core team, if you are will to
> communicate. Just a blog post or twitter post a day from one of you
> will more than suffice. I've noticed a couple of those things in the
> last day or two and it really helps.
is that no noob is too irritating to spend time listening to. In fact,
the perspective of new Rails developers is very important, since there
are certainly irritations in the process that we can no longer see (as
you have pointed out). I've said this before, and I'll say it again:
if you are interested in participating in the development of Rails,
feel free to email me directly. I spend a fair amount of my day-to-day
work communicating with community members, and I don't mind helping
people get up to speed.
> And @jeremy/@bitsweet - good for you for speaking your mind, but the
> FU stuff has a way of coming back to haunt you in things like client
> negotiations. That post will be here for eons....and you have no idea
> of all of the people who have seen it and taken note. If I had done
> that it would keep me up at night.
>
> So yes....everybody remain calm. Our long community nightmare is
> almost over. A few days - couple of weeks at the outside, and people
> can finish their gems and plugins, and books, and ide's and projects,
> and hosting platforms and.....well, you get the idea...
hosting platforms have taken the drawn-out process of the Rails 3 beta
period to provide extremely useful feedback about the current state of
things. The feedback of David Chelimsky (rspec, on exposed testing
APIs), Nathan Weisenbaum (haml, on templating APIs), several people at
New Relic (on instrumentation), the folks at Engine Yard and Heroku
(on bundler) and Sam Ruby (Agile Web Development on Rails, on general
backwards compatibility) have been critical to ensuring that the final
release of Rails 3 is up to the level of polish that you've come to
expect from Rails. Thank you all.
>
> There I've said it. I'll go back to the shadows now....
we need to communicate with the community in a single, public place.
This will be resolved.
Michael Schuerig
> Michael Schuerig wrote:
> > On Monday 26 July 2010, Ryan Bigg wrote:
> >> As for the people who aren't good for this community, I so far see
> >> two of them in this entire thread and let me tell you: they aren't
> >> the people who are whining that Rails 3 isn't out yet. They're on
> >> the other side of that particular fence. Maybe they should leave?
> >
> > To get an idea of the impact that certain people leaving would have
> > on the community, I suggest writing a script to count the number
> > of contributions to the mailing list that the people involved in
> > this thread have made over the years.
>
> Again with the e-penis comparisons. Jeez.
I think you're getting this wrong.
> I personally couldn't give a crap (and you shouldn't either) about
> how many contributions they've made to the mailing list. The manner
> in which they are acting now is not beneficial to the community. If
> they were even decent members then they'd be decent *all the time*.
> Making x contributions to the mailing list doesn't give you the
> right to act in the manner seen in this thread.
I'll put it more plainly. I wouldn't want people to leave who put a lot
of effort into answering questions no matter how silly or misguided they
are (the questions!). That doesn't make what these people say and do
right all the time and I don't have to like it all the time.
> If you don't like that somebody is whinging because Rails 3 isn't out
> yet, [...]
Don't get me started whinging about things related to Rails. No matter,
we all in here are apparently still using it.
Afterschool Carl
Jeremy is kind of a dick. He wrote a dickish post. We're all still
alive. Get over it.