A worthless pipe organ, not worth repairing..

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Noel Jones

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Nov 10, 2015, 6:41:48 PM11/10/15
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I’ve just come across a report by a church that explained that their current pipe organ was not worth repairing.  Been moved twice, falling apart, no longer reliable and no value.

They explained that they would not buy a digital/hybrid organ because it’s not a proven concept.

They would not buy a digital organ because they were concerned about obsolescence of electronic parts - totally ignoring that the major builders have a history of keeping them available.

Eventually, they chose to buy a pipe organ.

And have spent a lot of time packing up their old, not worth repairing pipe organ…which they intend to sell for $50,000.

It’s time for a reality check, isn’t it?

noel

Paul Weaver

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Nov 10, 2015, 7:00:27 PM11/10/15
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That is funny!
Sounds like a pipe organ bigot who would never consider anything else and who hasn't bothered to go hear a digital organ.
That argument might have been valid 40 or more years ago in a church with money to burn.  But----
Anyone interested in buying a Moller pipe organ?  I figure we will be very lucky to get $10K and am not counting on that.

Paul Weaver

Norm Buettner

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Nov 10, 2015, 7:41:32 PM11/10/15
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I hope no one is offended in my following comments regarding pipe vs. digital (electronic) organs.  I traveled extensively in Europe and found pipe organs some dating back many decades in most larger churches.  The organs were properly maintained and had a sound quality unrivaled by any instrument sounding through loudspeakers.  If it were not for these magnificent instruments, where would the digital people get their samples.  A pipe organ does require maintenance but it can always be repaired with material readily available, (provided it has not been modified by electronic controls). Any digital or electronic instrument older than 30 years, is relegated to an obsolete technology.  Repair parts are often expensive and only available from a dealership that represents the manufacturer.  To diagnose such instruments requires a well schooled technician equipped with sophisticated test equipment.  Digital organs have their place, but they can never replace an acoustic instrument.  Witness the fact that Yamaha builds excellent digital pianos, but so far they have not replaced a genuine acoustic piano when performing in a recital or with a symphony.  

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Noel jones

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Nov 10, 2015, 8:13:04 PM11/10/15
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Having lived and performed in Germany and Italy, I can state without question that pipe organs in Europe, even of questionable quality, sound superior to digital organs in the USA and pipe organs in the USA, except for a very few organs in the USa installed in comparable acoustics to what the average and even below average church in Europe possesses.

I never, ever saw a church with carpet over there…except for US Military chapels!

The only true comparison of a digital organ to a pipe is to have it in the same room as a pipe organ.

As has been proved by many organs built today, a few digital stops mixed in a pipe organ can be very hard to locate when playing…in fact, one pipe organ builder association refuses to install digital voices…except for a chosen few exceptions.  Other builders use them willy-nilly to complete pipe that otherwise would be missing crucial stops.


noel jones, aago
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Monty

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Nov 10, 2015, 9:43:31 PM11/10/15
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Noel points out an important fact--the room is the most important stop on an organ.  These days in the US, most churches are being built without acoustics, since the trend  is toward "worship centers", glorified auditoriums that pass as sanctuaries.  They are carpeted, cushioned and draperied so they look like a TV set or a living room and nothing like a church or a synagogue.  They are all based on spoken word and not on music.  The organ and choir can always be put through more speakers is the mindset of the audio techs.   If they went for natural sound, it would be totally different, but that isn't "in" right now.  It is all about entertainment not about sound. 

Monty Bennett

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Robert Tall

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Nov 10, 2015, 9:43:41 PM11/10/15
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Folks, everything is relative to money.  No one is arguing the beauty of the large beautiful European pipe organs. If you have the money you should have one in your church. If your budget is limited you'll be well served to install a beautiful digital organ by Rodgers. It all has to do with dollars.

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Steve Bosworth

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Nov 10, 2015, 10:39:12 PM11/10/15
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Exactly.
 
From: rodgersu...@googlegroups.com [mailto:rodgersu...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Tall
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:07 PM
To: rodgersu...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Frog Music's ROUG Forum Re: A worthless pipe organ, not worth repairing..

Walter Greenwood

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Nov 10, 2015, 10:56:59 PM11/10/15
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In the parlance of our times, "Like". Thank you, Robert.

Nelson Dodge

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Nov 11, 2015, 11:44:27 AM11/11/15
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Does anyone else see the irony: this church is attempting to justify the most costly choice of organ as the preferred technology, despite their experience with this technology in their present instrument that they deemed not worth repairing.  And of course they're dreaming if they think they'll get $50K for an organ that isn't worth repairing.  The irony doesn't stop.  The reality is that the old organ probably isn't worth repairing.  But why not be honest and state that you want/prefer a quality pipe organ.  It's a wonderful thing if you can afford it.


On Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 3:41:48 PM UTC-8, Noel Jones wrote:

Schuster Rodgers

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Nov 11, 2015, 2:32:25 PM11/11/15
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Well stated, Nelson.
Same with their reluctance towards a hybrid organ. You may install a pipe organ today and spend 100+k for a renovation after 30 years. You will still have the same organ.
Or you may install a pipe-digital organ today, spend 20-30k to renovate the pipe stops and buy a new digital console at 70-80k that will then represent state of the art sound, versatility and technology.

Which option may be more attractive, particularly considering what the congregation would prefer in 30 years...?

Mit freundlichen Grüßen / best regards,
Dieter Schuster
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Edward Stephen Cumming

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Nov 12, 2015, 2:02:35 AM11/12/15
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I don't understand the church believing that the digital/hybrid organ is "not a proven concept?" I suppose that they had to find something to justify their purchase of a new pipe organ. So sad indeed that they are not better stewards of the church's money. 

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Edward Stephen Cumming

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Nov 12, 2015, 2:05:18 AM11/12/15
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I don't understand the church believing that the digital/hybrid organ is "not a proven concept?" I suppose that they had to find something to justify their purchase of a new pipe organ. So sad indeed that they are not better stewards of the church's money. I wonder if they are aware that Rodgers pioneered the hybrid pipe/electronic concept? (and has been quite successful with this concept for many years). 

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EdB

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Nov 12, 2015, 9:54:26 AM11/12/15
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Exactly why Virgil Fox and the touring Black Beauty had 144 speakers and amplifiers to go along with them.

A pipe organ moves a lot of air and unless you have speakers that can move enough air you can’t approach matching a pipe organ.

But, you can’t beat the reliability of the new digital equipment.

Since 1962 I’ve been working on my home sound system to reproduce both Classic and Theatre organ recordings separate from my Rodgers 321. I now have a total of 3660 watts of amplifier power and cabinets that my wife call coffins.

 

Ed

 

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From: rodgersu...@googlegroups.com [mailto:rodgersu...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Norm Buettner
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 6:42 PM
To: rodgersusersfo.
Subject: Re: Frog Music's ROUG Forum Re: A worthless pipe organ, not worth repairing..

 

I hope no one is offended in my following comments regarding pipe vs. digital (electronic) organs.  I traveled extensively in Europe and found pipe organs some dating back many decades in most larger churches.  The organs were properly maintained and had a sound quality unrivaled by any instrument sounding through loudspeakers.  If it were not for these magnificent instruments, where would the digital people get their samples.  A pipe organ does require maintenance but it can always be repaired with material readily available, (provided it has not been modified by electronic controls). Any digital or electronic instrument older than 30 years, is relegated to an obsolete technology.  Repair parts are often expensive and only available from a dealership that represents the manufacturer.  To diagnose such instruments requires a well schooled technician equipped with sophisticated test equipment.  Digital organs have their place, but they can never replace an acoustic instrument.  Witness the fact that Yamaha builds excellent digital pianos, but so far they have not replaced a genuine acoustic piano when performing in a recital or with a symphony.  

EdB

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Nov 12, 2015, 9:54:55 AM11/12/15
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I will say I’ve seen installations where money wasn’t an issue and they still were done wrong.

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Noel jones

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Nov 12, 2015, 11:44:44 AM11/12/15
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As an educational guide, this is a report on the internet from yet another church that obviously wants a new pipe organ to replace their old, historic pipe organ.

Here are excerpts from the online report.

  1. General:

    Our current H&H organ was made for a much larger space than _______

Organ Committee Report to Vestry

The historical integrity of the instrument has long since been compromised by alterations and repair work undertaken to keep it operating.

Only the talent of our current organist disguises the fact that the organ is in, at best, fair to poor mechanical condition. Its idiosyncrasies make it both exceptionally difficult and physically demanding to play. This limits our ability to have guest organists and creates a challenge for our own organist to re-adapt to instruments elsewhere. 


[later they mention that they would sell this organ to help pay for a new pipe organ…]

Appendix A: Discussion of an Electronic (or Digital) Organ.

In the past two decades, digital organs have developed as an alternative for churches seeking to retain the traditional sound of a pipe organ but either unable to afford such an instrument or facing architectural issues that make a pipe organ impractical.

Although electronic organs of various designs have been available since World War II, the

development of software-based digital church organs extends back only to about 1990. Currently, the best digital organs are able to generate sounds that advocates say are identical to those produced by a pipe organ. In the United States, the majority of these instruments employ a technology known as sampling that uses sound files previously recorded from various ranks of organ pipes. Others employ a process of synthesis where the pipe wave shape is created without using an actual sample. Below is a fuller explanation of the two systems:

Digital sampling: The waveform emanating from the pipe is recorded, then digitized (its voltage amplitude is converted to a series of numbers.) These numbers are permanently stored in ICs (integrated circuits.) When that particular note is called for (by actuating the specific stop and pressing the specific key), the central processing unit sends a signal to the ICs to read out those numbers. Then the original waveform is regenerated by a converter.

Real-Time Digital Synthesis: Each note is created in real-time, not stored on a chip. Nested sinewave algorithms compute and generate each note’s array of harmonic content each time a key is depressed, creating an overall envelope. Also known as “active” tone generation.

The console of a digital organ may look almost identical to that of a pipe organ. A number of advanced technologies have been harnessed to mimic the complexities and variations that typically occur in the sound of a pipe organ. Supporters praise the realistic and complex sound of good digital organs, the elimination of wheezing and humming that may exist with an older pipe organ, and the relative ease of maintenance. Skeptics suggest that digital organs lack the richness and variability of pipe organs under actual performance conditions – and that, in any case, much depends on the proper placement of speakers and the overall quality of installation.

Although a digital organ is less costly than a comparable pipe organ, a digital organ that is “customized” and voiced for a particular church space will nevertheless require a substantial investment. A custom design still relies on a standard organ model, but also emphasizes the appropriate esthetic appearance of the instrument and the proper placement of speakers. According to one builder, “Differences in organ literature, personal taste, acoustic specifications of the room, application of the organ, musical style, and architectural proportions all determine the final specification, size, and disposition of the instrument.” The companies with the best reputation for reliability are also the companies that offer the most expensive organs.

Digital organs come in a wide variety of sizes, styles and prices. It does not seem possible to obtain firm pricing information for a customized digital organ without inviting a company representative to visit the church and provide an estimate. Anecdotal information suggests that prices may vary from $20-30 thousand at the low end of the spectrum to as much as $1 million at the other extreme. For our church, a ballpark estimate of $150 thousand to $225 thousand might be reasonable. One commentator suggests that the life expectancy for an electronic organ should be projected as about one-fourth that of a traditional pipe organ.

Although some organ companies claim that advanced digital organs do not require periodic maintenance and tuning, firms that specialize in repair and maintenance do not agree. All the moving parts of an organ can wear out; key contacts get dirty easily; pedal springs can lose their action; speaker systems are vulnerable to dust and wear; circuit boards can fail because of oxidation. A new digital organ would typically come with a ten year warranty for parts. The new organs use a modular design that, manufacturers say, ensures the quick and easy replacement of failed components.

It should be emphasized that the technology used in digital organs has continued to evolve rapidly. Electronic organs built more than twenty years ago used analog technology and are considered useful now only for purposes of practice. A 1990 organ might fairly be viewed as an antique. Unlike pipe organs, which have used the same basic technology for centuries, there is considerable uncertainty about how long a digital organ is likely to remain “top of the line.” This raises unanswerable questions about whether replacement parts will remain available twenty, thirty or fifty years into the future. Many digital organs sold in the past twenty years were manufactured by companies that are no longer in business.

According to one repair representative:

The electronic church organ market is in a volatile state. Some manufacturers have closed their doors, and others are on their way out. In order to survive, some companies have begun using their manufacturing facilities to produce circuit boards for other companies or moved their production facilities overseas, or quadrupled their parts pricing structure, or supplied their American name to an overseas manufacturer’s product...While very few electronic organ manufacturers are striving to increase reliability and maintain their level of quality, most are trying to increase profitability by using cheaper components. Rubber tactile contacts are a perfect example, since they are now being used in a large number of electronic church organ keyboards and draw knobs. In one well-known brand, I have seen them deteriorate into non-working condition in only 2 years...One major electronic organ manufacturer uses cheap plastic thumb pistons that actually melt into deformity from the heat of the internal lamp, and plastic draw knobs that crack and come apart during normal use.

Digital Organ Pros and Cons:

Pros: A custom-designed digital organ could provide a musical experience comparable to that of a new pipe organ at a significantly lower initial cost. Digital organs can be upgraded throughout their lifetimes via changes in software in the same manner that computers can be upgraded. Ongoing maintenance expenses should also be lower than with a pipe organ. The organ footprint would be smaller than with the existing organ, and the question of configuration could be addressed in accordance with the wishes of the parish.

Cons: The life expectancy of a digital organ is likely to be far shorter than that of a pipe organ. There are a number of other uncertainties related to digital organs including the availability of replacement parts, ensuring the proper placement and appearance of speakers, and unforeseeable issues of maintenance. In addition, some parishioners will no doubt question whether a digital organ is an appropriate instrument for a historic parish, such as _______  Church. Some may argue, as well, that a quality pipe organ is more likely than an electronic organ to attract first-rate musicians to our parish to serve as the director of music ministries.

If the option of an electronic organ is pursued, it would appear wise to select only among the largest and best-established manufacturers and to scrutinize carefully all contractual provisions related to maintenance and repairs.

Hybrid Organ

A hybrid organ is, as one might suspect, a combination of a pipe organ and a digital organ. This is a relatively new technology, dating back—in its current form—only about ten years. Hybrid organs appear be most suitable for churches that require a more versatile organ than they have, but lack the space to expand the number of pipes. In such an instance, an organ builder will supply a digital unit that contains the desired additional voices along with necessary loudspeakers.

Manufacturers assert that, with current technology, they can assure that the response of digital stops will perfectly match that of the pipes, so that listeners are unable to tell the difference.

Advocates argue that a hybrid can allow a church to retain the sound and appearance of a traditional pipe organ at a more affordable cost, with easier maintenance, and while consuming less space. Critics question hybrids’ durability, artistic integrity, quality of sound, and long-term cost-effectiveness. The absence of an extended track record complicates the challenge of gauging who is right.





 

Charles Strack

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Nov 12, 2015, 1:02:43 PM11/12/15
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The two best organs I ever heard were:

1. A Fritts 20-rank pipe organ built in historic northern European style.

2. A digital organ.

They were both very warm, enveloping sound. I didn't expect that from the pipe organ but this particular organ proved me wrong and dispelled some of the misconceptions I had about "baroque" style instruments.

Back in the 1970's at a trade show Rodgers gave out buttons that said "Listen." That still holds true.

stephen...@yahoo.com

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Nov 12, 2015, 3:25:10 PM11/12/15
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 The comments about the Hybrid organ are interesting. I believe that Rodgers first hybrid organ was marketed around 1971 or so in conjunction with Ruffatti under the name Gemini. The first digital hybrid organ was built by another company in 1971 adding a console and some digital stops to an existing pipe organ. The organ is still in weekly use today. 

I am always amused by the comments the naysayers come up with about digital and pipe hybrid instruments. I believe that through the years I have heard them all. 

 



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Noel jones

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Nov 12, 2015, 4:44:05 PM11/12/15
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Mikey

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Nov 12, 2015, 6:46:06 PM11/12/15
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Here is a facebook entry of an early Rodgers Hybrid Organ.


Mikey

EdB

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Nov 12, 2015, 6:46:10 PM11/12/15
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Exactly...because an organ installation regardless of it being a pipe organ or modern digital must be a “system” and anything that takes away from the “System” such as a carpet detracts from the result. Things such as room size, shape, ratios of length/width/height, material, placement of pipes/speakers, etc., all make up a “System.” A much simpler example is where people today have stereo or surround systems but don’t want large speakers. I have clients with Home Theater installations with grandiose screens, lighting and seating and have pissant speakers. One doesn’t even have a subwoofer. What you say Monty, is so on point.

I thrill to hear the older European pipe organs. The reverberation and phase interaction is magnificent.

 

Ed

 

-----Original Message-----
From: rodgersu...@googlegroups.com [mailto:rodgersu...@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 7:26 PM
To: rodgersu...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Frog Music's ROUG Forum Re: A worthless pipe organ, not worth repairing..

 

Noel points out an important fact--the room is the most important stop on an organ.  These days in the US, most churches are being built without acoustics, since the trend  is toward "worship centers", glorified auditoriums that pass as sanctuaries.  They are carpeted, cushioned and draperied so they look like a TV set or a living room and nothing like a church or a synagogue.  They are all based on spoken word and not on music.  The organ and choir can always be put through more speakers is the mindset of the audio techs.   If they went for natural sound, it would be totally different, but that isn't "in" right now.  It is all about entertainment not about sound. 

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Richard Wildhirt

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Nov 13, 2015, 5:49:33 PM11/13/15
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Several confusing messages there. Worthless = $50K? Digital organ technology not proven? Are these people living under a rock? Looks like they're either going by information of the 1970s or they're not doing their homework. So sad. They're missing out.

Rich

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Robert Mcmenis

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Nov 16, 2015, 2:52:10 PM11/16/15
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In response to the posting of the article on digital organs.  The discussion seemed to be about historic churches whose buildings and finances are such that they can reasonably discuss a digital organ, a hybrid organ and a pipe organ.

Left out of the article were all the churches that don't have space for nor have the funds to ever purchase a pipe organ of any size as well as many churches that are in the middle of these two extremes.

We haven't always had digital organs.  What historic path did churches take?  One solution is the reed organ.  The reed organ did not have tuning problems that pipe organs have.  They were better able to withstand being in churches where there is zero heating or air conditioning. They also came in a variety of sizes much like any organ technology is able to do.  Reed organs used reeds much like an accordian.  What provides the superior sound for organ is the sound board.  The sounding boards varied greatly I suspect.  A reed organ in a larger sanctuary would need a larger sound board than a reed organ in a church seating 100 people.
 
I have a pump reed church organ.  It was used in a Presbyterian church that closed.  The console does not have the decorative top that the home reed organs often had.  Also there is a 4 foot coupler.  There are two 8 foot stops plus this 2 foot for notes down to G below middle C.  The notes below that have a 16 foot stop and two 2 foot stops.  The two foot stops are designed to play the accompaniment while the right hand plays the treble.  The Roland Classic one manual organ is a take off from this organ.

While this organ is very limited to play organ liturature, it is well equiped to play hymns.  Useing the two 8 foot stops, the one two foot stop and using the four foot coupler it is possible to have 8, 4, 2, and 1 foot stops.  With the bass coupler it makes it easier to make sure that tthe bass note is played with enough bass.

I had a great opportunity to see and play a "large" reed church organ.  It has two manulals and a pedal board that was built to AGO specifications are at least very close.  Oringanlly this organ had a hand crank.  It now has a "silent" blower like pipe organs.

I share this because the discussion of using something besides working pipes has been a part of church history for a while.  Many of the rural churches in Arkansas built pre 1900 seated at most 100 people.  My grandmother attended church with a church model reed organ.  She did not like pianos for worship.  She was grown before she attended a church using a piano for worship.  My grandmother was born in 1895.  The use of pianos in churches in Arkansas appears to be more prevalent after WWI.l  One reason I suspect is that upright pianos made especially before 1900 were not that well made. Plus, there was no heat or air in those days except Sunday morning and maybe Wednesday nights.

From what I have read, it appears that the church reed organ began to loose favor to the Hammond organ which became available about 1935.  The "F note" registration on the great is titled full gt as I recall.  (Not on the B3)  This registration sounds more like a reed organ than a pipe organ if the knob inside the organ (that can be reached by removing the back of the organ( is turned all the way to the left. Turned all the way to "bass" all the glicks and such are not heard. Turned all the way to "bright" every click is heard and magnified.  This is the sound that  was discovered  and used by various people.  New styles of music were created around this version of the Hammond, the B3.

All that is new today is technology.  For well over a century churches who could not afford a pipe organ or the cost to keep it playing had a choice.  First, the reed organ. Then the Hammond.   After WWII there were several players in analog electronic organs: Baldwin, Conn, Wurlizer and others that prospered and then died.  Only Rodgers and Allen who make these electronicorgans survived the change to go digital.

We have an 808 Rodgers organ that is nine years old.  Some of the lights had burned out and we had those replaced.  I also had some voicing done to make the organ sound more like what I would expect from a pipe organ in our sanctuary.

That is not bad for the costs of maintenance.  I could have continued depending on my memory to remember what stops I was playing whose lights were out.  The voicing was not a maintenance issue.

Our organ has 45 digital ranks that come on as default.  That doesn't count the stops that are behind such as principal 8 behind the diapason 8.  Then there is the MX200 with Hector's extra stops.

The key to keeping our organ sounding like a pipe organ is to have each stop loud enough that it doesn't require the tutti piston to get FF from the organ.  The fewer stops that provide the wanted sound the better in our organ sounding like a pipe organ in such a way that it would fool pipe organists if they could only hear the sound.

Now the diapason 8 and octave 4 can be used to play a hymn such as "Sweet Hour of Prayer." 

I still have the principal 8 to use for baroque music.  Pipe organs can't compete with digitals in have back up stops for the default name stop. 

I say only hear becauses true pipe organists would know that there is no way to make a ;pipe organ soud as great as our organ!   They would know that there would need to be pipes and lots of them and there is a small organ chamber  each side of the choir.  These chambers only open to the choir.  Rodgers had decorative speakers on the walls of the organ chambers that speak to the nave in the same way a pipe organ would if a large opening were made from the organ chambers to the nave.  That would affect the beauty of our neo Gothic church with all wood walls and ceiling.

Sometimes the digital will sound better than the pipe:

Especially in a chapel size church that seats 275 maximum like my church?






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Ralph Cullen

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Nov 16, 2015, 3:09:45 PM11/16/15
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A very good summary of the history and issues involved with "alternative" organs for church use. Thank you Robert.
Ralph
Rodgers
New Zealand

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Noel jones

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Nov 16, 2015, 3:18:22 PM11/16/15
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Looking at the beautiful cathedrals and churches in Europe, the digital organ is not threatening the pipe organ in any way.

Congregations and leaders of congregations unwilling to financially support the church as people once did, are the reason the pipe organ is becoming a rare beast.

boz...@frontier.com

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Nov 16, 2015, 5:14:46 PM11/16/15
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Robert - Very interesting reading. Thanks for sharing a bit of your history and experience.
 
John J. Bozzola
Allegiant 678 + MX200 + ProFiler
Carbondale, IL

“When the last tree has been cut down, the last fish caught, the last river poisoned, only then will we realize that one cannot eat money.”  — Native American Saying



John Mitchell

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Nov 19, 2015, 8:12:25 PM11/19/15
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Digital organs are only posing a threat to pipe organs that are inferior in quality.
 
I believe the digital organ has changed the pipe organ market for the better. As mentioned recently, there have been substitutes for the pipe organ such as reed organs and then electronic organs. Those instruments were not especially of good sound quality compared to pipe organs. Another economical substitute for a standard pipe organ was a small pipe organ with unit stops, playing on both keyboards and pedal at various pitches. These did sound like a pipe organ but they were often bland and boring and were not useful for playing much of organ literature.
 
Digital organs have replaced most small pipe organs at the lower and the middle of the organ market. Few churches want a 5 rank pipe organ when they can have a digital organ that's much more capable. Because their sound quality has gotten better and better, digital organs have driven from the market cheaper pipe organs of low quality. The pipe organ business has changed because pipe organs have to compete with digital organs. No longer are there pipe organ companies shipping out dozens of stock models for churches. Digital organs with added ranks of pipes or pipe organs with digital stops are also becoming common.
 
This changing pipe organ market has created many smaller pipe organ makers who create custom organs. The larger pipe organ companies that have survived also have to make an organ that is more carefully made and offers something special. Just having pipes is no longer enough. I'm sure pipe organ companies will survive but their customers will be limited to those can afford the price.
 
John Mitchell 

Subject: Re: Frog Music's ROUG Forum Re: A worthless pipe organ, not worth repairing..
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 15:18:05 -0500
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