Re: [annex] discussions of why one would say or not say "Don't Think of Failed Conservative Values"

[janine kovac]

On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 7:17 AM, Leftymathprof (Eric Schechter) <leftym...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Let's put the latest news about FCV, and discussions of why FCV works
or doesn't work, in this thread, so it doesn't have to mix with other
topics that it's not related to.

[EdwinRutsch]

Food for Failed Conservative Values thought is here.
http://progressivespirit.com/Projects/FailedConservativeValues/index.htm

lot's of stories and insights.

Failed Conservative Values Barack Obama: Status Quo v Change
Failed Conservative Values: Dona Ridgeway - Authoritarianism
Failed Conservative Values: Elaine Charkowski - Patriarchy Family
Values

Failed Conservative Values: Norman Solomon - Dog Eat Dog Greed
Failed Conservative Values: Don - Greed is Good
Failed Conservative Values: Norma - Greed
Failed Conservative Values: Karen Suarez - Greedy
Failed Conservative Values: Dan Healy - Greed Force
Failed Conservative Values: David Lutness - Me First
Failed Conservative Values: George Ripley - Me First
Failed Conservative Values: Nancy Kops - Selfishness
Failed Conservative Values: Ben Leet - Selfishness
Failed Conservative Values: Gordon Wright - Psychopath
Failed Conservative Values: Eric C Bauman - Ego Centric
Failed Conservative Values: Heartlessness
Failed Conservative Values: Trin Yarborough - Entitlement

Failed Conservative Values: Aris - Fear Power
Failed Conservative Values: Frank - Fear

Failed Conservative Values: Arun Akkineni - Self-Righteousness
Failed Conservative Values: Fred Davis - Self-Righteousness

Failed Conservative Values - Brenda Emerson - Hypocrisy
Failed Conservative Values: Michelle - Hypocrisy
Failed Conservative Values: Steve Reed - Hypocrisy

Failed Conservative Values: Jim Dean - Corruption v Tolerance

Failed Conservative Values - Robert Cuthbert - Compassionate
Conservative
Failed Conservative Values: Joseph Lyons - No Compassion

Failed Conservative Values: Brian Galt - Family Values
Failed Conservative Values: Joan - Family Values

Failed Conservative Values: Deloris - Name Calling
Failed Conservative Values: Jay Jackman - Neglect
Failed Conservative Values: Michael Nagler - Dehumanization

Failed Conservative Values: James Hargrove - Fundamentalism

On Failed Conservative Values Discussion: Michael Nagler


Failed Conservative Values Metaphors

Failed Conservative Values Metaphor - Robert Cuthbert - Drug Addicts
Failed Conservative Values Metaphor: Brian - Threatened Bear
Failed Conservative Values Metaphor - Joseph Lyons - Unequal Playing
Field
Failed Conservative Values Metaphor: Michael Nagler - Wolverine
Failed Conservative Values Metaphor - Gary Alford - Vacuum
Failed Conservative Values Metaphor: Arun Akkineni - Strict Teacher
Failed Conservative Values - Bill Honigman - Restrictive - Intolerance
Failed Conservative Values Metaphor - Brenda Emerson - Under Glass
Prize
Failed Conservative Values Metaphor - Jay Jackman - Predator
Failed Conservative Values Metaphor: Dan Healy - Red Pill Sleep
Failed Conservative Values Metaphor: Don - Bull Elephant
Failed Conservative Values Metaphor: Time Bomb
Failed Conservative Values Metaphor: Jim -Mud Stuck Elephant
Failed Conservative Values Metaphor: Owen Jackman - Hyena
Failed Conservative Values Metaphor: Kenneth Arnold - Angry God
Failed Conservative Values Metaphor: Joan - Quicksand
Failed Conservative Values Metaphor: Meat Grinder
Failed Conservative Values Metaphor: Michelle - Sold Soul
Failed Conservative Values Metaphor: Norma - Anaconda
Conservative Values Metaphor: Bill Honigman - Porcupine
Failed Conservative Values Metaphor Fred Davis - Feathering Nest
Failed Conservative Values Metaphor - Eric C Bauman - Fire v Rainbow
Failed Conservative Values Metaphor - Brian Galt - Brier Patch
Failed Conservative Values Metaphor - Harry Scott - Shredder
Failed Conservative Values Metaphor: Steve Reed - Backhoe
Failed Conservative Values Metaphor: Salazar-Rivera - Snake v Dolphins


Comparing and contrasting conservative and progressive values?
Video clips on Youtube

Progressive V Conservative Values? Louise E. Specht
Progressive V Conservative Values? Katharine Kunst
Progressive V Conservative Values? Alice W Clark
Progressive V Conservative Values? Frances Townes
Progressive V Conservative Values? James Latimer
Progressive V Conservative Values? Joellyn Richards-Martel
Progressive V Conservative Values? John Stone King
Progressive V Conservative Values? Kathryn Schreiber
Progressive V Conservative Values? Kent Gilbert
Progressive V Conservative Values? Lee Williamson
Progressive V Conservative Values? Carolyn Scarr
Progressive V Conservative Values? Esther Ho
Progressive vr Conservative Values? Tony Tiscareno
Progressive v Conservative Values? Richard J Wagner
Progressive v Conservative Values? Ahjamu Makalani
Progressive v Conservative Values? James Forsyth
Progressive v Conservative Values? JC Stiassni
Progressive v Conservative Values? Henry E Ha
Progressive v Conservative Values? Carole M Marie
Progressive v. Conservative Values? Cheryl Mollicone
Progressive v Conservative Values? Barbara A Levin
Progressive v Conservative Values? John R. Michael
Progressive v Conservative Values? Mary L Jacobs
Progressive v Conservative Values? Nina Shar
Progressive v Conservative Values? Scott Henderson
Progressive v Conservative Values? Tony Hale
Progressive v Conservative Values? Mimi Kennedy
Progressive v Conservative Values? Diane Strack
Progressive V Conservative Values? Charles M Taylor

[EdwinRutsch]

Im back from Netroots Nation.... and I know you've been missing the
discussion.. so, see
http://democracyforamerica.com/blog_posts/26088-presidential-candidate-bob-barr-on-the-failure-of-conservative-values

Libertarian Presidential Candidate Bob Barr on the Failure of
Conservative Values

At Netroots Nation in Austin, Texas, you can always tell when a VIP is
in the room. Just look for the person with a deferential crowed
gathered around them and follow the direction the cameras are
pointed. While I feel uncomfortable standing so deferentially in
anyone's presence, I have a job to do, and that's to find out how
exactly conservative values have failed. So, when I saw a crowed
gathered in the hallway, I moseyed on over with my video camera in
hand and worked myself into the front of the crowed. There was Bob
Barr, the Libertarian presidential candidate. After patiently waiting
for the other interviewers to finish asking their questions, I asked
Bob, "Have Conservative Values Failed?"

Bob Barr: I'm not sure. The term "conservative values" means so many
different things to so many different people. To me, what has utterly
failed in the traditional conservative movement is any understanding
of or respect for true individual liberty and our constitutional
system of government, which was designed expressly to provide
protection for individual liberty........
http://democracyforamerica.com/blog_posts/26088-presidential-candidate-bob-barr-on-the-failure-of-conservative-values

[EdwinRutsch]

My interview with Bob Barr is on http://www.huffingtonpost.com/off-the-bus/
See headline video.

WATCH>>Libertarian Pres. Candidate Barr Blasts GOP "Conservative"
Values

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/edwin-rutsch/bob-barr-blasts-the-gops_b_116455.html
Bob Barr on the Failure of Conservative Values.

[EdwinRutsch]

I just came across this article by Sara Robinson on ourfuture.org
about why many progressives don't fight back against conservative
attacks.
http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2008083205/why-we-dont-shoot-back

It's helped me to better understand the objection to using Failed
Conservative Values argument by some progressives. It relates to
different cultural traditions in dealing with attacks in different
parts of the country.

"Drew Westen and Mike Lux both have cogent and persuasive posts up
that deftly explain — and raise the alarm about — the timidity that's
recently settled into Sen. Barack Obama's presidential campaign. Sen.
John McCain's shooting live rounds now; and, as usual, the Democrats
are refusing to fire back. If that doesn't change — this week, before
the Olympics starts — this could all too easily turn into Dukakis-all-
over-again.".........

[Moriji]

The Democratic Party is a party of losers. And I don't mean it in the
demeaning sense. I mean loser as in losing elections.

Take a look at how the Republicans are turning things around with the
offshore drilling thing. They are staying in Washington and demanding
that the Democrats pass a bill. They have a coherent message and they
fight what they believe.

Now look at the Democrats. They could have done the same thing in
regards to withdrawing troops from Iraq, but they didn't. No
fillibuster. They just gave in without a fight.

And look at Obama. He went from speaking clearly for what he believed
in to centrist babble.

But the Democrats are so confident about November. Well, I wouldn't
be surprised if they all of a sudden find themselves out of power
again. Imagine that!

The sad truth is the Democrats stand for absolutely nothing. That's
why they keep losing elections.

On Aug 7, 11:23 am, EdwinRutsch <hques...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I just came across this article by Sara Robinson on ourfuture.org
> about why many progressives don't fight back against conservative

> attacks.http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2008083205/why-we-dont-shoot-back

[Gregory J. Lawless]

No, they keep losing elections because they still cling to the idea that if
you just show the people the facts, then they'll vote in their own
self-interest. They still don't get that there are contested ideals of
things like freedom. They still think everyone is just being stubborn and
greedy. There are some who understand it, but not enough. And they do know
what they stand for, they just can't get the message out in a way that
resonates.

Obama is more than likely just listening to bad advice right now, but
hopefully it's not too late to get him to hear us. If not, well...what
happens happens, and we just keep trying. Or we get an emperor to impose it
on everyone and we build a huge empire of niceness by force and then get to
call everyone else heretics and lock them up for saying the moon is really
made of cheese and dinosaurs lived in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve.

[EdwinRutsch]

The likes of Bill O'Reilly and Newt Gingrich have long railed against
'San Francisco Values' as a cause of America's ills. I sat down with
San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom at the Netroots Nation Conference in
Austin, Texas to talk about conservative values. Gavin articulated
the case for how the conservative value of division has failed. He
listed case after case of failed results and finally likened
conservative values to schizophrenic and bipolar Tasmanian Devils.

http://democracyforamerica.com/blog_posts/26265

http://www.opednews.com/author/author13481.html

[dano]

This stuff started happening with the Obama campaign after he sat down for
his chats with Hillary at the end of the primary season. I'm concerned
that Clintonianism (i.e., issue triangulation that ignores Bill's natural
talent for empathy that was the real charismatic reason he won his
elections) has crept into the campaign in an effort to engage the swing
vote.

We Lakoffians all know this is based on a flawed theory of the "linear"
left-right dimension of political spectrum. The worst thing in political
strategy is to misjudge what led to some success and to try to reproduce it
by trying the flawed theory rather than the thing that actually worked.

How can we get the Obama campaign to stay focused on the
polar/multidimensional nature of political hybridization? Sometimes he
seems to get it (addressing the evangelicals by choosing the progressive
issues that they already believe in and appealing to that common ground,
also by the way engaging progressive stories and beginning the process of
inhibiting the conservative stories). Sometimes not so good.

At 11:23 AM -0700 8/7/08, EdwinRutsch wrote:
>I just came across this article by Sara Robinson on ourfuture.org
>about why many progressives don't fight back against conservative
>attacks.
>http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2008083205/why-we-dont-shoot-back
>
>It's helped me to better understand the objection to using Failed
>Conservative Values argument by some progressives. It relates to
>different cultural traditions in dealing with attacks in different
>parts of the country.
>
>"Drew Westen and Mike Lux both have cogent and persuasive posts up

>that deftly explain - and raise the alarm about - the timidity that's

>recently settled into Sen. Barack Obama's presidential campaign. Sen.
>John McCain's shooting live rounds now; and, as usual, the Democrats

>are refusing to fire back. If that doesn't change - this week, before
>the Olympics starts - this could all too easily turn into Dukakis-all-
>over-again.".........
>
>

[Leftymathprof (Eric Hussein Schechter)]

I've just thought of another reason why I don't care for the whole
"failed conservative values" approach. (Sorry, Edwin.) To me that
phrase suggests that, once upon a time in the past, conservative
values have worked; but more recently they have failed. I disagree.
I think they never work. How about "EXPOSED conservative values"?

On Jul 13, 5:38 pm, "janine kovac" <janine.ko...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 7:17 AM, Leftymathprof (Eric Schechter) <
>

[Amy Meier]

The article is very interesting, I don't know if it is helpful in finding a way to a more progressive nation (especially if the insider crowd doesn't get the message). Maybe this is one reason why the Lakoff thing resonates so well with me. I'm pretty progressive minded, but I can imagine my (midwest/southern) family reacting to any given language very quickly and think about whether or not it would go over. I've also had a lifetime of training of confronting and defending myself against incorrect and ignorant arguments implied or spoken.

A great new thing I've tried is to dig the innuendo out of a phrase. Many times a conservative thinker will throw a piece of their (anti-govt, racist, sexist, corporate) frame into a discussion without it being overt or the main point and I will stop, back up and ask them to explain themselves. Ask them if they did intend the innuendo and exactly what is meant by it because I don't understand. Many times this leads them to being embarrassed at having to spell out their thinking (such as, 'well, you know, black people don't like that kind of thing' or 'well the government spends most of it's money supporting freeloaders', or 'middle eastern people are more likely to be terrorists'.

I find it completely amazing how Obama's tack to the so-called center has completely disengaged me in the race. I FEEL the fear and greed tactics (as in spying on Americans and drilling offshore instead of conserving) neutralilzing my activism. I care less and less about the presidential campaign and have started wondering what it will really be like with a McCain presidency (and getting passports for my kids).

I can't campaign for Obama with the trajectory he is headed. Why he is straying so far from his primary message is unknown, but it is devastating to our cause. It certainly smacks of Clintonian calculations and tons of "expert" advice from our professional losing establishment.

Maybe the real 'swing' vote is one that swings all of us supposed fringe elements right into apathy.

Go Cindy Sheehan. Maybe I'll put all of my campaigning efforts into getting her elected over Pelosi. Now that would be a dramatic shake up no matter what followed.

 

> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 23:29:08 -0700
> To: rockridge-an...@googlegroups.com
> From: r...@munb.com
> Subject: [annex] Failed Conservative Values - Why We Don't Shoot Back

[lwoods]

Amy,

The McCain camp loves you,and encourages you to tell all of your
friends! For every person that gives up on Obama because he is not
"200% their guy" the Republicans have gained a vote. Why does this
seem to be such a hard concept for Democrats to understand? It
happens over and over again. Republicans push emotion; Democrats are
too much "single issue" voters. If you don't agree with me on my
issue then I'll stay at home on election day! Guess who wins?

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[EdwinRutsch]

I don't know if I ever posted this.. But people have asked if I ever
interviewed Conservatives.. here is a story that Conservative Dave
wrote from his experience at netroots.:

it's at this url with photo.. see comments as well.

http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/?p=376

One of the people in the crowd talking to Barr turned out to be Edwin
Rutsch who is making a documentary about Progressive Values. He was
wearing a shirt which read "Conservative Values: Fear,
Authoritarianism, Self-Righteousness, Hypocrisy," so I had to follow
him around for a bit to see if I could get an opportunity to point out
to him that those terms were not values, but actions or types of
behavior. As a result, I got to see him interviewing people for his
documentary. Bizarrely he was asking Netrooters what they thought
'Conservative values' were, and getting answers like 'hate' and
'racism'. I wonder if he plans on asking Conservatives what they
thought 'progressive values' were. Fat chance. There's something
retarded about interviewing leftists about Conservative values, but I
give Rutsch points for being an authentic grassroots progressive
loony. It only got weirder when, after watching him for a while, he
ended up interviewing me for the documentary on the assumption that I
was a fellow progressive. I think I managed to lay down a brand of
bullshit complex enough that there's a fair chance that his NPR-addled
brain won't figure out that I was sarcastically deriding his efforts
until after he puts me in the film, unless he happens to read this
article.

(edwin: I'll be posting his interview shortly)

hi Dave,

Thanks for mentioning me in your article. I haven’t edited your
interview yet but will let you know when it’s online. I do hope to
interview more conservatives at some point.. So, perhaps you could
tell me some good places to do this. I’m also working on a documentary
about the Failure of Conservative Values.

Here’s the Bob Barr interview about how he feels Conservative Values
have Failed.

Pres. Candidate Bob Barr on Failure of Conservative Values

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lEzGsBeNUds

By the way, some of the Failed Conservative Values people talk about
are, name calling, demeaning, and put downs.
2 edwin rutsch // Jul 26, 2008 at 12:04 pm



Dave, here’s a definition of values.

Sociology: the ideals, customs, institutions, etc., of a society
toward which the people of the group have an affective regard. These
values may be positive, as cleanliness, freedom, or education, or
negative, as cruelty, crime, or blasphemy.
—
so, Fear, Authoritarianism, Self-Righteousness, Hypocrisy do qualify
as conservative values.
3 Dave Nalle // Jul 26, 2008 at 6:26 pm

Once again, I think you don’t quite get it, Edwin. ‘Name calling,
demeaning and put downs’ aren’t actually values. They’re actions. They
have no particular association with conservatism. They certainly don’t
fit the definition which you yourself posted.

You’re also off-base in connecting ‘authoritarianism, self-
righteousness and hypocrisy’ with conservatism. They’re not
particularly the domain of conservatives more than anyone else.
Hypocrisy is just part of politics all over the political spectrum.
Self-righteousness is a personal quality which is apolitical and found
equally on the left and the right. Authoritarianism may be a
conservative value. It’s certainly not a value of Republicans or the
American right, but if you can find some real conservatives - perhaps
among Democrats - the y might favor authoritarianism.

Good luck with the documentary.

Dave

[EdwinRutsch]

Eric, The title just keeps evloving. and the illiteration just keeps
getting better as well

Another story from Jim Hightower. - it is interesting how just about
any progressive you ask about how conservative values have failed
comes up, right off the bat, with an example, (even libertarian Bob
Barr had stories as well.)


Failed Conservatives Values: Jim Hightower on Greed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfzntcHcKnw

Failed Conservative Values Metaphor: Jim Hightower - Grasping
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPHV315sn3E

[Moriji]

Oh, shut up already. Why is it that all these Obamatrons come out of
the woodwork whenever anyone criticizes their hero? Go and work on
bringing Obama back to the left or bringing Republicans to the fold.
Stop blaming other progressives for your candidates uninspiring
campaign.

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[EdwinRutsch]

Exposed! Eternally Failed and Fatally Flawed Conservative Values of
Moriji and Bill O'Reilly

Bill O'Reilly and Moriji at their best; "shut up already"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIVnwYGU9Qo

Failed Conservative Values: Louise Specht on Hierarchy Authoritarian
Narcissism
I asked Louise Specht about the the failure of conservative values.
She addressed the hierarchal and authoritarian nature of
conservativism and how this can lead to narcissism for the people at
the top. Steven Colbert does a great job of imitating a conservative
on the Colbert Report. I just saw him begin his show lately by saying,
"Did I tell you I love me lately?" He hit's the nail on the head, as
does Louise.
http://democracyforamerica.com/blog_posts/25707

[janine kovac]

I like that.  "exposed" implies that there are two sides, one is hidden.

[Moriji]

Up yours. You're are an asshole.

[Moriji]

Well, it's been great guys, but I think this group has run it's
course. Good luck in November.

Moriji, a firm believer in eternally failed and fatally flawed
conservatives values who dares to criticize Obama

[EdwinRutsch]

> Up yours.  You're are an asshole.

Exposed! Eternally Failed and Fatally Flawed Conservative Values of
Moriji and Bill O'Reilly

Now let's see how many Progressives on this list publicly condemn this
behavior?
157 people are on this list.. let's see how many stand up for their
progressive values and condemn the failed conservative values of
demeaning, put downs and name calling.

----

regarding - two sides, one is hidden.

I think that is the failure of the strategy of, - personally feeling
that conservative values have failed, but hiding the fact, and trying
to appeal to conservatives with empathy. That is deceptive, there's a
hidden quality to keeping your true feelings submerged. It can only
lead to problems down the line since those contradictions will
eventually surface.. This strategy lacks integrity. Not only that,
it can not lead to empathy in the long run. To empathize with someone,
you need to know where they are emotionally. If you are hiding your
truth, others can not honestly empathize with you, because they don't
really see you.

When I tell conservatives that their values have failed, I still
look deeper into them and realize the common humanity. At the deepest
level, we all have the same humanity - Even if, their Conservative
Values are fatally flawed and eternally Failed and that that reallity
needs to be exposed.

so, in sort, it seems to me, you can empathize with conservatives,
but tell them their values have failed.

[janine kovac]

condemning isn't part of my nature, period. 

[Patrick Draper]

EdwinRutsch wrote:
>> Up yours. You're are an asshole.
>>
>
> Exposed! Eternally Failed and Fatally Flawed Conservative Values of
> Moriji and Bill O'Reilly
>
> Now let's see how many Progressives on this list publicly condemn this
> behavior?
> 157 people are on this list.. let's see how many stand up for their
> progressive values and condemn the failed conservative values of
> demeaning, put downs and name calling.
>

I think that half the problem here is people's tempers, and the other
half is your refusal to listen to the rest of us when we tell you that
your failed conservative values campaign is misguided.

And then this calling out business - what is that? Are you calling for
150+ people to all comment on this thread in your support? I can't
support you in that.

--
Patrick Draper |Don't |pdr...@gmail.com
Austin, Texas |Fear |Father Order runs at a
http://www.pdrap.org |The |good pace, but old Mother
Be Microsoft Free - Use Linux|Penguin|Chaos is winning the race.

[EdwinRutsch]

Patrick

The question is not if people on the the list do or don't support the
Failed Conservative Values project. My question is if it supports
"Oh, shut up already" and "Up yours.  You're are an asshole." type of
manifestation of progressive values. That's what I'm curious about?

This is the thread I'm talking about.

lwoods: - "Why We Don't Shoot Back" - The McCain camp loves you, and

encourages you to tell all of your friends!

Moriji: - Oh, shut up already.

EdwinRutsch: - Bill O'Reilly and Moriji at their best; "shut up
already"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIVnwYGU9Qo

Moriji: Up yours.  You're an asshole.

-------
I will say that when I talk to conservatives online, they complain
about the name calling from progressives. I condemn it when
conservatives do the name calling and I condemn it when progressives
do it. And I use the dictionary definition of condemn as in;
1. To express strong disapproval of: condemned the needless waste of
food.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/condemn

I suppose we could take a poll.
( ) I support this attitude: "Oh, shut up already. Up yours.
 You're an asshole."
( ) I express strong disapproval of "Oh, shut up already. Up

yours.  You're are an asshole."

( ) I don't know.

[Patrick Draper]

EdwinRutsch wrote:
> Patrick
>
> The question is not if people on the the list do or don't support the
> Failed Conservative Values project. My question is if it supports
> "Oh, shut up already" and "Up yours. You're are an asshole." type of
> manifestation of progressive values. That's what I'm curious about?
>

Moriji is gone, apparently. I was addressing you.

[Leftymathprof (Eric Hussein Schechter)]

Actually, I agree with Amy, except that I would go one step further: I
think that campaigning for Pelosi might be our best way of sending a
message to Obama about what he needs to do to salvage his campaign.

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[Amy Meier]

To whomever chastizes me for calling out Obama's current FAILING campaign tactics and FAILURE to 
stick to progressive values. 

I am a progressive and have never once claimed to be a Democrat in ideology (it has never been clearly 
defined). I stand on the rock of empowerment, empathy, and community responsibility, Dems blow around 
in the breeze according to each season. I'm not going anywhere, Dems come and leave me according to 
their actions. Why would you or any Dem presume one way allegiance?

Our voting system forces me to align myself with one of two candidates and so I am forced to 
choose from exactly two choices right now. Obama will be my choice in this instance. I have not moved 
from my principles and values, the candidates have waltzed their values all over the dance floor, 
depending who is watching. Strength is sticking to your values, not pandering. Those who just think 
that I'm stupidly 'helping the McCain campaign' are pretty narrow in their world view. It is not my 
fault that Obama is pandering and caving to corporate, establishment interests and power where he had 
said he will stand strong. I am the last thing from a single issue voter and those sort of dismissals
will assist YOU in losing the campaign.

There's another thing Edwin's interviewee, Dave, had right, self-righteousness and hypocrisy are certainly not exclusive to 
the conservative crowd.


Dave expresses my sentiments exactly except perhaps the authoritarianism part. You are not 
at all connecting with conservatives and the rest of the people 'get' what you are wanting 
from them and want to oblige (they already live within your frames). Participation in your 
project does not mean that someone agrees with your use of the term 'values'.

I wonder Edwin, how do you think your project is helping anyone but yourself.

Amy

3 Dave Nalle // Jul 26, 2008 at 6:26 pm
 
Once again, I think you don’t quite get it, Edwin. ‘Name calling,
demeaning and put downs’ aren’t actually values. They’re actions. They
have no particular association with conservatism. They certainly don’t
fit the definition which you yourself posted.
 
You’re also off-base in connecting ‘authoritarianism, self-
righteousness and hypocrisy’ with conservatism. They’re not
particularly the domain of conservatives more than anyone else.
Hypocrisy is just part of politics all over the political spectrum.
Self-righteousness is a personal quality which is apolitical and found
equally on the left and the right. Authoritarianism may be a
conservative value. It’s certainly not a value of Republicans or the
American right, but if you can find some real conservatives - perhaps
among Democrats - the y might favor authoritarianism.
 
Good luck with the documentary.
 
Dave

---

Your PC, mobile phone, and online services work together like never before. See how Windows® fits your life

[GregJL]

Actually, I kind of agree with Dave on the authoritarianism part,
also. I've seen a few authoritarian progressives before. Although I
have to marvel at how he first says it isn't a conservative value then
says it may be, but isn't a value of the Republicans or the American
right, as if the Republican ranks are not filled with conservatives.
it kind of seems the definition of conservative was different in each
of his sentences.

I do have to say, Amy, that agree completely that Obama has been
treading the wrong path lately. Like I remarked earlier, I think he is
spending too much time listening to other more "experienced" people in
his campaign. Wondering why it is no one has noticed that all those
"experienced" people have been LOSING. However, I would not say that
those of us who understand that he is playing the game as it has
always been played and letting those actions slide a little (although
I know I've tried to contact his campaign and anyone I can to get him
to STOP it) are just blindly following along. And I'm also not saying
YOU said that, I mean that comment for Moriji, if he is even still
around, because I am REALLY sick of hearing the word "Obamatron".

Edwin, my only comment is that you are correct and incorrect. No need
for name calling here, although it will happen from time to
time. :shrug: We're all only human. But name calling still isn't a
VALUE.

> _________________________________________________________________
> Your PC, mobile phone, and online services work together like never before.http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108587394/direct/01/

[Marv]

Aug.11, '09
The "timidity" of Obama comes from the fact that on the day he was
born, he would be subject to a double standard. McCain can slam him,
but if Obama slams back there is a price to pay. There are many folk
out there just waiting to label him an "uppity black". Campaign
strategists of both parties are aware of the double standard and are
guided by that knowledge.
Marv

On Aug 7, 11:23 am, EdwinRutsch <hques...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I just came across this article by Sara Robinson on ourfuture.org
> about why many progressives don't fight back against conservative

> attacks.http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2008083205/why-we-dont-shoot-back

[Marv]

Aug.11, '08
The Democratic Party has within its ranks a large contingent of well-
educated, affluent liberals. It is this group that recognizes the
growing divide between rich & poor as a product of Republican policies
going back to Reagan. This Democratic segment, in empathy with the
poor, support CHANGE ....the theme of the Obama campaign.
A puzzling reality is that those who would benefit most from
progressive changes are inclined to vote for someone with whom they
could drink a beer. That's the NASCAR, Harley-Davidson, gun-rack
folk. But this is the group we need! If you have any answers, get
back to me.
Marv

> > over-again.".........- Hide quoted text -

[Amy Meier]

Hi Marv, good to hear from you .

Here is the answer according to Lakoff: find a way to genuinely relate to them (there is always common ground among humans), conscisously use language and stories that activate empathy in their brains, have patience, build progressive infrastructure, repeat.

Good luck , that is what many of us are trying to do. It certainly isn't easy.

Amy 

> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 16:51:38 -0700
> Subject: [annex] Re: Failed Conservative Values - Why We Don't Shoot Back
> From: mt...@sbcglobal.net
> To: rockridge-an...@googlegroups.com

[Rikard]

>      A puzzling reality is that those who would benefit most from
> progressive changes are inclined to vote for someone with whom they
> could drink a beer.  That's the NASCAR, Harley-Davidson, gun-rack
> folk.  But this is the group we need!  If you have any answers, get
> back to me.
> Marv

Hey. People vote for candidates they trust, can identify with and who
share the same values. People don't vote for specific issues, like
lowered taxes for the poor, unless the issue is attached to a value,
like EMPATHY for other people or creating a more FAIR tax system.
Issues without values isn't trustworthy.

Rikard

[EdwinRutsch]

Like at past Republican National Conventions, there has been a lot of
talk about conservative values. Nothing new there, but this time the
RNC convention has the feeling of a sinking ship. The conservatives
are doing a lot of talking about the exact same Failed Conservative
Values that they have been talking about for the past 30 years. It's
the same Failed Conservative Values of indifference, incompetence,
compassionate conservativism and corruption that brought us the
disaster of Katrina. It's the same Failed Conservative Values of
authoritarianism, secrecy, deception and violence that brought us the
failed invasion and occupation of Iraq. It's the same Failed
Conservative Values of selfishness, greed and arrogance that brought
us Abramoff and a conservative congress mired in a culture of
corruption. It's the same Conservative Family Values and Traditional
Conservative Values of 'you are on your own', that have lifted the
national misery index. It's the same fundamentalism, self-
righteousness and hypocrisy that brought the sex scandals of Mark
Foley, Ted Haggard, Larry Craig, etc. etc.

The problem is that progressives, liberals and democrats are not
directly taking on the Failed Conservative Values. Progressives need
to call conservative values what they are. Failed! It's not just
failed policies, it's failed values. Even conservatives shout from
the rooftops that they base their policies on their values. Take them
at their word. I see progressives repeatedly attack the failed
conservative policies, but they will not directly attack the Failed
Conservative Values.
I've interviewed over 100 people and asked them if Conservative Values
have Failed? They all had no problem coming up with example after
example after example of the failures. People know in their heart, in
their guts, in their bodies, how conservative values have failed the
country. It's time for progressives to stand up and confront
conservatives directly at the values level. Start off by telling them
directly and with the conviction you feel in your guts that their
values have failed.
Here are just a few of the stories people have shared with me.

Failed Conservative Values: Louise Specht on Hierarchy Authoritarian
Narcissism

ttp://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/25/13472/5298/266/541805

 I asked Louise Specht about the the failure of conservative values.
She addressed the hierarchal and authoritarian nature of
conservativism and how this can lead  to narcissism for the people at
the top. Steven Colbert does a great job of imitating a conservative
on the Colbert Report. I just saw him begin his show lately by saying,

"Did I tell you I love me lately?"  He hit's the nail on the head, as
does Louise.

Failed Conservative Values: Arianna Huffington on Family Values
Hypocrisy
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/21/123819/624/257/539764
Arianna Huffington is a well know progressive speaker and activist. 
She started the popular Huffington Post website and it seems you can't
turn on a progressive TV show  without her popping up on it and taking
a swipe at the conservatives. I saw Arianna at our local bookstore
where she was promoting her new book, The Right is Wrong. During the Q
and A, I asked her how conservative values have failed. She had plenty
to say. 

Failed Conservative Values: They're Not Working - George Lakoff
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/20/114334/856/994/539027
George Lakoff is a linguistics professor at UC Berkeley and author of
numerous books on metaphors, framing and politics. Howard Dean has
called him, "one of the most influential political thinkers of the
progressive movement." George was at our local bookstore talking about
his latest book, The Political Mind. During the question and answer
period, I asked him if he personally feels that Conservative Values
have Failed and if so, how have they failed?

Failed Conservative Values: David Sirota on Economic Darwinism

David Sirota came and talked about his new book, 'The Uprising' at the
Oakland Democracy for America meet-up on June 11, 2008.  During the Q
and A, I asked David how conservative values have failed and he talked
about the failure of Conservative Economic Darwinism. The full video
of his 70 minute talk and slideshow is now online.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/13/175642/490/380/535597


Failed Conservative Values: Gavin Newsom on Division & Schizophrenic
Tasmanian Devils
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/17/135620/004/493/569045

The likes of Bill O'Reilly and Newt Gingrich have long railed against

'San Francisco Values' as a cause of Americas ills.   I sat down with

San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom at the Netroots Nation Conference in
Austin, Texas to talk about  conservative values.  Gavin articulated

the case for how the conservative value of division leads to weakness
and failure. Finally he likened the values to schizophrenic and
bipolar Tasmanian Devils. 

Presidential Candidate Bob Barr on the Failure of Conservative Values
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/7/27/13453/8531/568/557775
At Netroots Nation in Austin, Texas, you can always tell when a VIP is
in the room.  Just look for the person with a deferential crowed
gathered around them and  follow the direction the cameras are
pointed. While I feel uncomfortable standing so deferentially in
anyone's presence, I have a job to do, and that's to find out how
exactly conservative values have failed. So, when I saw a crowd
gathered in the hallway, I moseyed on over with my video camera in
hand and worked myself into the front of the crowed.  There was  Bob
Barr, the Libertarian presidential candidate. After patiently waiting
for the other interviewers to finish asking their questions, I asked
Bob, "Have Conservative Values Failed?"

Fatally Flawed Conservative Value of  Hypocrisy
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/7/6/172922/9355/747/547426
Several people I asked about the failure of conservative values
mentioned hypocrisy.   Michelle, Owen and Steve  brought up examples
of conservative hypocrisy in;  family values, education,  finance, the
economy,  the occupation of Iraq and in human rights. While we all may
exhibit varying degrees of hypocrisy in our lives, it seems that the
conservative movement has embraced and institutionalized this value.

Failed Conservative Values: Congresswoman Maxine Waters on Blame, Hate
& Lying
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/7/2/124358/1892/254/544876
I interviewed Congresswoman Maxine Waters and asked her about
progressive and conservative values. In this section, Maxine mentions
that conservatives have tricked people with the failed conservative
values of  blame, hate and lying.   These values are also failing
because more people are not following them anymore and in fact, 
people are starting to turn toward progressives values. She goes on to
talk about how the occupation of Iraq is a metaphor for the failure of
conservative values.

Failed Conservative Values: Gordon Wright on Psychopaths and Fear
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/28/152028/516/681/543424
Gordon Wright values freedom but was raised by a conservative
autocratic, dictatorial and bully of a father. He feels conservatives
fear life's changes and it's spontaneity. An example is how all of
George Bush's public events are totally choreographed and controlled
events.   He also thinks  that the corporate conservatives value of
heartlessness and unfettered self-interest, are the same values as a
psychopaths.


Failed Conservative Values: Elaine Charkowski on Patriarchy Family
Values
http://www.democracyforamerica.com/blog_posts/25718
Elaine Charkowski talked with me about how conservative values have
failed. She says, Conservative Family Values is about patriarchy and
fear of authority. It’s about not using your own mind and woman are to
be subservient to the man. The type of power used is random punishment
and reward, which studies show is the best way to drive animals crazy.


Failed Conservative Values
http://progressivespirit.com/Projects/FailedConservativeValues
Assist us in systematically building the arguments and telling the
stories that reveal how Conservative Values have Failed. Join in our
effort to create a documentary and book on the subject
by contributing articles, posts, chapters for the book and video
clips. Check our website for more information and a growing outline of
tasks that need to be done on this project.

See more Progressive Values Stories:
http://progressivespirit.com/InterviewStories/ProgressiveValuesStories.htm

Edwin Rutsch
What Are Progressive Values? Documentary Project
http://ProgressiveSpirit.com
and Study Group
http://www.dfalink.com/group.php?id=2285


Take the Poll Here:
Should progressives, liberals and democrats confront conservatives at
the values level and say that conservative values have failed?
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/9/4/144050/5022/202/586617

[janine kovac]

So if they've failed so catastrophically, why are McCain and Obama neck in neck?  How come it doesn't work to tell them their values have failed?  How come it makes some of our dear relatives cry when we point that out? 

How come the facts don't work?

We KNOW conservative ideas, values and policies do not work.  And as we have seen, it doesn't work to say they don't work.  There is a reason why.  That's what this discussion should be pointed to -- because it isn't so simple to get that message out.

[EdwinRutsch]

janine,

what's your alternative to standing up to conservatives?
Could you spell it out. whatever it is, I don't see it working.

Democrats have not tried to directly make the arguement that
conservative vaues have failed.

[Greg Lawless]

The reason they don't work is because the world simply isn't built the way regressives think it is. They talk all the time about '"making it on your own", but the truth is, it's never been that way. And to tell the truth, I feel sorry for anyone who is "on their own". It must be awfully lonely. There is no absolute right and wrong (well, there is, it's just that it only applies to which style of pizza is REAL pizza and how it should be eaten). The way conservatives look at the world simply does not work. Blind obedience does not work when circumstances change. It's why Iraq has failed, it's why every major policy of Republicans has failed over and over again. But Democrats and progressives (notice how I do not say they are one and the same) have failed miserably because they have never appealed to people's HEARTS (yes, i know the heart is just a muscle pumping oxygenated blood to the real center of our being, but since everything is a metaphor, I'm going with it.). Ok, not "never". FDR did it. JFK did it. Lincoln did it (why oh WHY did that man have to be a Republican?) Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Ben Franklin....all these men reached out and touched our HEARTS. Obama can do that, he HAS done it. The problem is, if he doesn't talk issues and policy sometimes, he may lose financial backing from idiot Democrats who have no freaking clue.

I saw an ad for "Morning Joe" the other day that pissed me off at the time, but the more I think about it, the more I think he was right. It was a clip form when he was talking about the "gas tax holiday" that the Republicans were trying to get passed, and the Democratic reaction to it was like "I don't know why anyone would think this would be a good idea". (He was doing it in a John Kerry/liberal elite type voice, which is probably what REALLY pissed me off.) So then he says "Well of course you don't!" And he's RIGHT! Of course Democrats don't understand it. maybe if they tried FEELING instead of THINKING...because yes, if you THINK about it, it doesn't really save you any money. But try this, Dems....picture in your mind the sight of the sign at the gas station...now picture the numbers going DOWN. How does that FEEL?

Sarah Palin and those "people" at the convention scared the shit out of me last night at one point. She talked about Obama wanting to read the terrorists their rights in such a mocking tone, and those "people" cheered, like the rights in our Consitution are not basic human rights. Like the "terrorists" (and also said as if it can be taken for granted that anyone detained IS a "terrorist") aren't human, are even lower than ANIMALS. It scares me that these people can empathize with a few cells grown in a petri dish, but not with a man strung up by his privates and being probed with cattle prods, just because he's brown with black hair and speaks a language other than English and worships the god of Abraham a bit differently. But Dems and progressives have almost as much of a problem with empathy.

Hell, I don't know if any of this is helpful, but there is one thing I think we need to do...keep hammering home that "on your own" isn't how America works.

I was just reading about John McCain's tax and health plans in an article on CNN.com. The "journalist" of course accepts the conservative frame that taxes are some type of burden from which we need "relief". Taxes are not some burden we need relief from. They are the price we gladly pay to ensure that we can get and do the things we need to live. They pay for our roads, our schools, our banking systems, our courts, our regulatory agencies that keep us safe from soulless corporations. Taxes keep us from having to try and make it "on our own".

Another point that I think needs to be hammered home is about John McCain's "health plan". Obama needs to point out how it is an "on your own" plan. It is designed to force individuals OUT of their employer based health plans and have them buy insurance "on their own". "On your own" is a point that has to be hammered away at over and over again. America is not a country of "On your own". America was created from COMMON dreams and COMMON goals of improving life for EVERYONE here through a government that protects and empowers its citizenry. To paraphrase Tom Hanks, "There's no "on your own" in America!" There is "Howdy neighbor! How can I help you today?" There is no, "Oh, the toxic waste from my factory killed your sheep? Well, sorry, but you're "on your own"." This is a country where the factory owner studied the area beforehand and found a way to ensure his toxic waste wouldn't accidentally hurt anyone. And that would be because our government has set up protections to ensure that the factory does that before allowing him to BUILD his factory. That's PROTECTION. That's what GOVERNMENT does. Conservatives don't want those protections. John McCain doesn't want those protections. Sarah Palin doesn't care who gets hurt or what kind of state or country or world she leaves her descendants as long as SHE gets paid NOW. She doesn't care if people need oxygen tanks from the day they're born as long as her hubby can race his "snow machine" all over the place. Well, it's not your air, it's not your land, Sarah. It belongs to the PEOPLE, and the PEOPLE have a stake in it. We need to have it out there that America is not about making all by yourself.

[janine kovac]

I wouldn't say it isn't working; I'd say it isn't being applied.  AT ALL.

Lakoff has been talking about re-framing the debate for 15 years now.  And people nod and say, "YES" and think he's some kind genius and then they turn around and talk about tax relief and the Iraq War.  And failed conservative values.  And think that the words will make a difference and that "people don't think that way."

Look at Obama's website -  they have a whole "get the facts right" section where they REMIND everyone about all the lies and smears and try to "set the record straight."  They say silly things like, "Obama does too fly with an American flag on his plane."  (If you think Obama is unpatriotic, you don't care if he has a flag on his plane or not.  He is still unpatriotic.  )

It means they are always on the defensive.  It means that by bringing up the lie, they keep reinforcing the frame, instead of countering it.

One alternative to the smear/truth section might be:
To introduce the frame of false advertising.  Then expose the false frame - you can say, "the republicans are trying frame Obama as unpatriotic.  To do this, they have to make up lies.  But this is how we know that Barack and Michelle are truly patriotic:  <list stuff here>"

This way  you expose the frame of falsity and counter the frame of patriotism without explicitly mentioning the lies.

Do you see anybody doing this?  (Besides the republicans)  No, you don't.  Because too many people who call themselves progressives think that it will work to repeat "your values have failed."  All the while the republicans are showing us how our values have failed to connect.

[EdwinRutsch]

Poll:
Should progressives confront Sara Palin and failed conservatives
values?
http://www.opednews.com/Poll/Should-progressives-confro-by-Edwin-Rutsch-080904-11.html


Should progressives confront conservatives at the values level and say

that conservative values have failed?

( ) Yes, tell Conservatives that their values have failed.
( ) No, keep the debate at the failed conservative policy level.
( ) Don't criticize conservatives failures, just talk about positive
progressive values.
( ) All of the above, failed conservative values&policies and
positive progressive values.

( ) I don't know

( ) Other

[janine kovac]

Yeah, I was pretty terrified, too.  That heartless woman is a bitch.  I only hope more people watch the Daily Show than watch the GOP convention.

[janine kovac]

Edwin, why is your family still conservative?  Surely you have told them that their values have failed. 

[Leftymathprof (Eric Hussein Schechter)]

Cheney reminded me of "1984." Palin reminds me of "Rhinoceros."

I'm starting to agree with at least part of Edwin's idea, but I might
approach it differently. Maybe I'll make myself a button that says
"Selfishness hasn't worked; let's try cooperation." Or perhaps
"Authoritarianism hasn't worked; let's try empathy." What does this
group think of those ideas?

By the way, Lakoff's most recent article did mention (though he only
barely mentioned it):

"What Democrats have shied away from is a frontal attack on radical
conservatism itself as an un-American and harmful ideology."

On Sep 4, 3:46 pm, "janine kovac" <janine.ko...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Edwin, why is your family still conservative?  Surely you have told them
> that their values have failed.
>

> On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 1:41 PM, EdwinRutsch <hques...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Poll:
> > Should progressives confront Sara Palin and failed conservatives
> > values?
>

> >http://www.opednews.com/Poll/Should-progressives-confro-by-Edwin-Ruts...

[janine kovac]

right now I'm ruminating over nurturant parent/strict father models in terms of checks and balances vs moral order.  Lakoff talks a lot about moral order and order of authority in Political Mind.  For me it provided a process for analysis.  In the Moral Order, some things (values, people, etc) have and should have authority over others.  The checks and balances spreads the authority between parties.

We have models for both in our lives and in our heads. 

I think this understanding is crucial -- esp right now with the bitch-slapping Palin has done at the media.  And the conservatives calling foul when the media reports that: Palin never returned the 237 million dollars she receivedf for the Bridge to Nowhere, her questionable ethics & Troopergate, that Palin used her "choice" to have a baby with Down''s but wants to deny women from being able to make the same choice, etc. 

The conservatives are aghast -- they cry sexism but what they are really apalled at is that the media is over stepping its bounds (asking questions to which they don't have answers).  The media thinks of itself as the checks and balances.  Both think they are in the right.  (no pun intended)

something to think about.  Talking to conservatives in terms of checks and balances instead of reinforcing the moral order frames.

[Greg Lawless]

Conservatives have been busy for the past forty years both slowly undermining the credibility of the media as the "fourth estate" and inculcating their conservative view points as the norm by which to view issues. This year the journalists have decided it's time to take back the responsibilities they've abdicated to moronic pundits like O'Reilly, Scarborough, and Hannity.

 

Conservatives don't believe in the system of checks and balances. They're the one whose ancestors wanted to make George Washington our king. And they're slowly working the Presidency up to that.So talking to them (which is something I avoid anyway, I'll leave that to someone who won't choke them) in terms of checks and blances probably won't work well. However, it will probably work on bi-conceptuals :)

[janine kovac]

what about linking checks and balances to accountability?

although I think it's worth pointing out, cons aren't against checks and balances when it is the "higher" perceived position to the lower, just when it is lower to higher.  But then there's something amiss in that assessment too -- how to explain the sudden worthy attribute that Palin took on the establishment.  Classic Underdog Hero Narrative trumps moral order, I guess.

[EdwinRutsch]

Eric

"frontal attack "
yeah, you can't get more frontal than Failed Conservative Values.

"Authoritarianism hasn't worked; let's try empathy."

In my opinion it's a step in the right direction. Anything to help
draw the distinctions between the conservative and progressive values
in peoples minds is a help.

I think what's needed is a comprehensive strategic and systematic plan
or framework to take back the values debate. your suggestions would be
part of that. how would you see your comparisons fitting into a larger
strategy to take back the values debate?

edwin








On Sep 5, 4:51 am, "Leftymathprof (Eric Hussein Schechter)"

> > > (  ) Other- Hide quoted text -

[Amy Meier]

I wish this refrain could start in the echo chamber: "Pro War cannot be Pro Life!"
Why don't we ever hear this? Oh, right, it's because any given politician (save perhaps Kucinich) is afraid to be seen as anti-military. They stick their finger in the air and calculate away their gut feelings.

Amy

 

---

Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 13:40:42 -0700
From: janine...@gmail.com
To: rockridge-an...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [annex] Re: Sara Palin and the same Failed Conservative Values

---

See how Windows connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life. See Now

[Leftymathprof (Eric Hussein Schechter)]

Perhaps we should study the speeches and writings of Kucinich, and try
to understand better how he is able to break away from the herd.

[EdwinRutsch]

Daily Show Coverage: GOP RNC Conservatives Failed to Remember Small
Town Values

Here's a funny clip from the Daily Show's coverage of the Republican
National Convention. In their various speeches, conservatives made a
big point of trying to connect their Failed Conservative Values to
Small Town Values. Yes, they never give up on the values debate and
always try to add a new wrinkle to their rhetorical values debate
arsenal. However, this time the Daily Show's best darn news team on
the planet went out to investigate. As you'll see, the problem is
that conservatives just can't remember what those values are.

View @:
http://democracyforamerica.com/blog_posts/26632
or
http://www.opednews.com/articles/RNC-GOP-Conservatives-Fail-by-Edwin-Rutsch-080907-92.html


Take the poll: What are Conservative Small Town Values?
http://www.opednews.com/Poll/What-are-Real-Conservative-by-Edwin-Rutsch-080907-480.html

( ) Another cynical conservative gimmick like; Family Values,
Traditional Values, Values Voters, Compassionate Conservative and are
used to wrap themselves in a coat of moral superiority.

( ) An honest attempt to articulate conservative values.


Edwin
http://progressivespirit.com