[mcd] ALL THE WALKERS

[Christopher Morris-Lent]

since walkers are a controversial topic among ‘max-fun’ cubers and their evaluations vary so violently depending on format and context, i thought i’d make a thread to discuss how we feel about these dudes. i’ll go first:

ajani goldmane — useless on an empty board, therefore too conditional for much constructed play recently (though he was in a modern tokens list or two). but jesus is this card powerful, even with two creatures. it’s one of the strongest cards in my cube, and maybe too strong to be much fun. also, this card is easy to play. it has one ability.

ajani vengeant — the best of the ajanis for constructed; terrible on a clogged board, but very high-impact on an empty board; better-suited than ajani g. for constructed due to the nature of modern, where he’s found a home in UWR and jund lists. i can’t imagine excluding him here, he’s about the right power-level though having +1 spammed at you can get frustrating.

ajani cop — hybridizes the previous ajanis by being useless on both an empty and clogged board. (or so my joke goes). does anyone play this card? it seems really bad, and nobody picked it ever, but i could reconsider.

big chandra — seems bad, though i’ve been told otherwise. too many possible red fatties to trifle with her, could reconsider.

regular chandra — to my mind this is the best chandra in cube. her effects are surprisingly powerful for the format, she’s beefy, and she ultimates quickly and decisively (unlike goldmane). again there are a lot of possible red 5’s but i would consider rotating her in again in the furystoke giant-thundermaw-thunderblust-siege-gang platoon

little chandra — bad all the time? cards like this find a niche in constructed because they eke out marginal value, which is not enough in cube

domri — i’ve been testing him. he’s not all that popular, since (as in constructed) people usually prefer to make a dude at 3. i’m keeping him in for a little longer, may cut.

good elspeth — being a top-5 walker, at first i thought she was too powerful, but now i’m not sure. she’s one of those marginal-value cards and in a shell not meant to abuse her she might not be all that good, or at least worse than ajani. would consider switching in again.

bad elspeth — this was a recommendation from a friend. she saw a little play when ZEN rotated out but neither she nor the deck were strong. and yet she could be perfect for cube! her quick ultimate means she’s more than just a pallid imitation of cube staple Cloudgoat Ranger. what do you guys think?

fight garruk — sometimes in, sometimes out, always very good. making a stream of bears is not a bad place to be in cube.

original garruk — i love everything about this card and think it should be in everyone’s cube.

big garruk — probably too powerful, right? especially given all the other options at 5 for green i have no desire to put him in.

good gideon — no fun to play against (ergo no fun to play with)

bad gideon — useless

baby jace — a fun and very powerful card with a surprising amount of play to it. will never cut.

new jace — in another thread, eric said he was gonna cut baby jace for this guy. though new jace is splashy and has a surprising amount of play to him as well, i wouldn’t — cubes don’t need more 4’s, especially when blue already has similar effects in FoF, deep analysis, Gifts that are even splashier and tougher to play. new jace is also much worse than baby jace, though whether that’s good for fun or not depends.

5-mana (big) jace — two-turn clock? no thanks. never include.

jtms — it’s possible that without all the support cards you find in legacy or standard lists of yore, big jace wouldn’t be overpowered. that being said, i’m reluctant to include cards that ruin control mirrors, and jtms can be really miserable to play against.

karn — i’m not a fan

koth — i love him

terrible lilly — way too bad

sweet lilly — one of the most fun cards in cube, due to being way worse than she is in constructed; her power level scales to the power level of whichever format, which imo is a huge design triumph. i’m a huge fan.

big lilly — i’m pretty apathetic, someone convince me to keep her out or put her in?

nicol bolas pw — nah, costs 8

nissa — bleh, tribal

sarkhan the mad — i like including one sarkhan or the other (though both is better than neither). for his distinctive flavor and br card advantage shtick this one usually gets the nod.

sarkhan vol — the original victim of the domri theory (“why not just make a dude instead”), though i like him a little.

old sorin — i’m a big fan of this card, but he’s been cut due to black wanting more giant creatures to reanimate at high cmc.

new sorin — significantly worse than good elspeth and tougher to cast. why not? sorin is sweet.

tamiyo — never tried her, what do you guys think?

vintage tezz — not enough artifacts

new tezz — ditto

tibalt — useless

venser — blinking is fun, he’s always in

vraska — quite possibly too bad, she’s rarely in as the 5-slot is crowded and there are more fun cards that are easier to cast than her.

as i see it …

staples: ajani vengeant, garruk wildspeaker, jace beleren, koth of the hammer, liliana of the veil, sorin, lord of innistrad, venser, the sojourner

sometimes in / sometimes out: ajani goldmane, garruk relentless, sarkhan vol, sarkhan the mad

too bad, too good, or too boring: ajani, caller of the pride, chandra, the firebrand, garruk, primal hunter, gideon jura, gideon, champion of justice, jace, memory adept, jace, the mind sculptor, karn liberated, liliana of the dark realms, nicol bolas, planeswalker, nissa revane, tezzeret the seeker, tezzeret, agent of bolas, tibalt, the fiend-blooded, vraska the unseen

need more information / on the fence / pleeeeeease discuss these cards with me??: chandra ablaze, chandra nalaar, domri rade, elspeth tirel, elspeth, knight-errant, jace, architect of thought, liliana vess, sorin markov, tamiyo, the moon sage

post your experiences and philosophies here!

[Dom Harvey]

Ajani Goldmane: like it, does its job effectively, doesn't take over games by itself

Ajani Vengeant: very good, a nice flagship for a colour pair with few strong non-hybrid gold cards

Ajani COP: great if you're supporting a pump subtheme, poor otherwise

Gideon Jura: I don't think this is overpowered tbh, it's just a big dumb guy in control mirrors a lot of the time and isn't oppressively good against aggro decks
Gideon COJ: garbage

Elspeth KE: this is the only planeswalker I might want to cut for being too good; it's the hardest PW to come back from behind against, especially at it's mana cost

Elspeth Tirel: undeservedly overlooked imo; it provides a permanent solution to clogged boards and permanents that are hard to deal with in a way that's more fun/interactive than your typical sweeper, while also being a nice card while you're ahead. Its downside is that there is heavy competition among 5cc white cards.

Jace Beleren: a staple in my view, not too much more to say about it

Jace TMS: I can see why people would want to cut this for power/fun reasons, but I've found it manageable. It's an exceptional card in its own right but also works well with a lot of my Cube's subthemes. In addition, the prevalence of army-in-a-can cards and haste creatures mean that the -1 doesn't automatically win games as often as it does in Constructed.

Jace, Memory Adept: just not a fun card

Jace, Architect of Thought: decent but not something I'm in a hurry to find room for. Most 4cc blue cards are better.

Tezzeret the Seeker: obviously its worthiness for inclusion is heavily dependent on the contents of your Cube, but it's ceiling is very high

Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas: ditto

Tamiyo: not at any risk of being cut despite the strong competition at its CMC

Liliana Vess: it does a lot of cool things, but it's gradually being edged out.

Liliana of the Veil: see what Chris said. A lot of the most innovative Cube redesigns I've seen have had the explicit aim of making black a more appealing colour to draft. Liliana works with many of those changes and is a fantastic card in general.

Liliana of the Dark Realms: I'm growing to hate this type of incremental advantage card, to the extent that I think Phyrexian Arena is barely playable.

Sorin Markov: again, cute but costs too much

Sorin, Lord of Innistrad: solid but unremarkable

Chandra Nalaar: still as good as it was way back when. It also combos well with Boros Reckoner, which is my new favourite thing.

Chandra Ablaze: gtfo

Chandra the Firebrand: could be excellent in a spell-heavy Cube, but not what I want to be doing otherwise

Koth of the Hammer: inspires terror like few other cards can

Tibalt: nope

Garruk Wildspeaker: uncuttable

Garruk Relentless: very fun, supports sac subtheme and extra tutoring is always nice

Garruk, Primal Hunter: I don't like this card for reasons I can't rationally explain. Can't fault anyone for including it though.

Nissa: wat

Sarkhan Vol: great curve-topper for a R/x or G/x aggro deck, works well with sac effects, and the ultimate is usually game-ending and surprisingly easy to activate.

Sarkhan the Mad: adorable but maybe not good enough?

Domri Rade: haven't been able to try this yet; I've heard mixed reviews.

Vraska the Unseen: mediocre for its casting cost

Venser the Sojourner: the rare example of a PW whose value changes with the amount of effort you want to devote to it; it has value in a normal control deck, flickering lands or Wall of Omens or w/e but can also do truly disgusting things

Nicol Bolas: unnecessary but totally awesome

Karn: I like Karn quite a bit. When the -3 is used it's easily killable and the +4 has no immediate impact on the board, so it's not as offensive as it might seem. For me its colourlessness is a big plus; I like being able to draft a R/W or B/G control deck that has a legitimate top end threat the typical U/x control decks have a hard time with.

[Christopher Morris-Lent]

hey now, sarkhan the mad is pretty good. ROE standard jund would like a word with you.

in all seriousness this post was stupendous. i loved it all and agree with most of the analysis.

quickly:

i remember the first time i discovered venser had a -1 ability. he's pretty good.

phyrexian arena is an amazing card that chills out and wins control mirrors. liliana of the dark realms is mythic walker porn for twelve-year-olds.

you've convinced me to try bad elspeth and tamiyo right away, karn, nicky b, jtms, gideon later, and rotate relentless and chandra back in at some point.

i like having a pretty light walker section, typically between 9-12 for my 405. i've seen lists eschewing walkers completely but naaaaah they're fun. what kind of concentration do you guys favor?

[Jason Waddell]

I'll put in a Walker discussion in my DGM set review, but I am at 14 walkers at 360. A lot of them are not always played though, or need some context to succeed. 
Sarkhan Vol
Venser
Karn
Chandra, the Firebrand
UB Tezzeret

Ajani, Caller of the Pride

I have BW Sorin and 4CMC Elspeth out of my cube currently. I don't run Wildspeaker. Currently sticking to a max of two Planeswalkers per color. I prefer my Planeswalkers to play a role but not take over the game on their own. Ideally most of my planeswalkers have value that varies with context, and couldn't just be jammed into decks. 

[tomc...@gmail.com]

I recently noticed that Kranny has been testing "bad Gideon", and found it to be an interesting, skill-testing card. Not typical planeswalker power level, perhaps, but surprisingly good. It's actually making me want to try swapping out the Gideons, since the original Gideon is extraordinarily annoying.

[FlowerSunRain]

I think planeswalkers are very likable cards.  I like how you can interact with them.  I like how they let you make minor decisions every turn.  I really like how most of them are extremely playable.

There are a few I find to have unsavory effects on my cube (Jce TMS, Ajani Vengent, Karn), so I don't run them.  But overall, I love the card type.

[Jason Waddell]

I might give combover Gideon a swing. It's a standard legal PW that costs 5 dollars. We haven't seen that since... oh... uh... hey Tibalt, how's it going? We were just talking about... uh....

[Peter Angell]

My cube (which I'll be posting a write up on any week now) had a serious problem with planeswalkers.  They were too good.  Part of it was because there was so much mass removal in the format, and the number of cards which could deal with them outside of combat was quite low.

Before phasing them out entirely, as was suggested to me by my playgroup, I had an wonderful epiphany.  I'd use a very simple house rule/errata to "fix" planeswalkers.

In my cube, all planeswalkers are also creatures.  They can't attack or block.  That's (mostly) it. 

Because Planeswalkers are now creatures, the following dynamics have changed:
- Mass creature removal and Spot removal kills walkers.  This was our primary goal; to make them easier to interact with.
- Reanimation and Raise dead effects now allow you to rebuy walkers.  To offset a total "nerf," they become easier to get back if they are destroyed.
- If you grant a planeswalker protection from a color, creatures of that color won't damage them when they attack them.  They can pick up a sword of fire and ice and survive a mono-red beatdown.

The rules actually handle multi-typed permanents quite well, we only had to add a couple further addendums so this would "work like you'd expect":
- Gideon grants himself the ability to attack and block when he uses his "animation" ability.
- A planeswalker-creature's power and toughness is equal to their starting loyalty when not in play, and their current loyalty while in play, unless a P/T setting event takes place (like Gideon animating himself).
- Any damage dealt to a planeswalker-creature only results in removing loyalty and does not track damage dealt to it like normal creatures (otherwise, casting lightning bolt targeting a planeswalker with 6 loyalty would kill it, as it would become a 3/3 creature with 3 damage on it).

My cube is definitely not close to a "standard" cube, but I thought I'd share this rule change that I made, and have been quite happy with.  It's quick to explain to new drafters, and most people "get it" right away - this is important when using a house rule/errata.

edit: Poofreeding is gud.

[B4K4157]

Sarkahan the Mad seems bonkers with the "loves to be sacrificed" creatures in your latest update Jason. Maybe move redcap to black or red?

On Wednesday, April 17, 2013 2:27:38 PM UTC-4, Jason Waddell wrote:

I might give combover Gideon a swing. It's a standard legal PW that costs 5 dollars. We haven't seen that since... oh... uh... hey Tibalt, how's it going? We were just talking about... uh....

On Wednesday, April 17, 2013 8:04:15 PM UTC+2, tomc...@gmail.com wrote:

[Jason Waddell]

That's a great suggestion! I'll put it on the list for my next order. 

[Christopher Morris-Lent]

hey peter -- we were having a similar problem in my cube's infancy; all the good decks were either hardcore control or curve-out-into-walkers. running walkers with no errata is doable if you pare down the section (no good gideon or good elspeth) and work really hard to support aggro (which is imo worth it), but your current arrangement is creative and if you're happy with it then who am i to say it's wrong!

[Peter Angell]

Thanks.  I know it's not a solution that's right for everyone, as sometimes a color's identity might be how well it can deal with planeswalkers in and out of combat.  But it stunk to start cutting the premium walkers, so this ended up being an elegant solution.  The walkers are still fun and powerful, but not unbeatable.  If anyone else gives this a go, let me know how it works for you.