Combat Tricks

[FlowerSunRain]

I run Giant Growth and I love it.  Giant Growth isn't a joke.  Its the type of card that I enjoy: it doesn't support a high powered archetype and doesn't add "unfair" power, but it has great potential upside for its cost.  I don't think Giant Growth needs an explanation on how or when to use it, but I do think people undervalue its effect on the game.  Its basically a "charm" card that packs three situational cards in one.  I find in green-white decks where spot removal is sparse, this effect is vital.  Keeping your efficient small drops alive while either creating tempo or forcing in damage is really important for this type of deck.  I think its a great roleplayer in a lot of different decks.

Here are some combat tricks that might be worth discussing by color:

White:  Test of Faith, Shelter (my favorite), Fortify, Harm's Way
Blue:  Umm, not really many. Telekinesis?  Aetherize?
Red:  Blood Lust, Instant Burn
Green:  Berserk, Giant Growth, Might of Oaks, Stonewood Invocation, Vines of Vastwood, Stampede, Any Fog Variants
Black:  -x/-x stuff, Grave Servitude
Gold:  Selensya Charm, SImic Charm, Boros Charm, Ghor Clan Ramager (Ravnica II is great for combat tricks)

Anyone have any of these or others they want to talk about?

[FlowerSunRain]

Also consider cards that allow for indirect combat tricks.  Harrow with Steppe Lynx/Plated Geopede.  Instants/discard enablers with Tarmagoyf. 

Also, I can't believe I didn't mention Briarhorn in the last post.

[Calvin Chan]

I really enjoy my combat tricks as well.  Adding them to a cube really diversifies cards that people will play around.
Some I enjoy that haven't been mentioned are agony warp, groundswell, zealous persecution, and rootborn defences (slightly different).

[FlowerSunRain]

I totally forgot about zealous persecution!  That's a fun choice for a token theme.  I mentioned Fortify before, but Rally the Peasants is similarly fun.  Having one or the other in your cube gives white a scary little reach card for token decks.

[Eric Chan]

Kevin, you gotta show us your list. You're killing us here! :P

I probably have the least experience with combat tricks in this group. I just know I want more of them in my cube.

Moment of Heroism has created lots of blowouts in limited. Agony Warp is certifiably insane, and the new R/W looks half decent itself. I've played Fleeting Distraction in gold-bordered Magic Online and been happy with it. Surprised Calvin didn't mention Double Cleave, cause I know you love that one. :)

The only one I currently run is Mutagenic Growth, as zero mana is the only amount where combat tricks are playable for us.

[FlowerSunRain]

My cube is currently dismantled for revisions, I will hopefully get a new version up and running for playing next weekend.  I really don't look forward to typing it out, though.  I guess I should upgrade to the modern world and make a spreadsheet or something.

I've never run double cleave.  I've used Guided Strike in the past, though, and while its less flashy then double cleave, I think I like it better for a somewhat similar purpose. 

I have thought about using Fleeting Distraction, but it just doesn't seem very blue.  Then again I run unstable mutation and that isn't very blue!

[Jason Waddell]

Fun discussion going. I had to look up almost all of these cards, for what that's worth. :)

I will say that I am a little skeptical about how well these cards would play in a more traditional "high power level" environment. We have a few (Ghor Clan, Boros Charm, Flash creatures, nuking a soulbond guy), but even Briarhorn never got played. Agony Warp was good when I had it. 

Do you think many of these would be successful in a cube where games play out more like constructed matches?

[Dom Harvey]

Slaughterhorn and Skinbrand Goblin are worth considering as well.

[FlowerSunRain]

I have a confession to make.  I haven't played Type 1 or 1.5 (Now known as VIntage or Legacy) since 1996, right before Mirage came out.  Back in 1996 both Giant Growth and Bloodlust were completely playable cards.  I have looked at recent Legacy decks and it doesn't really resemble the format I used to play.  So, I really doubt I can give you much useful advice on these issues.

[Eric Chan]

I had more combat tricks in the past, too, but they weren't cutting the mustard. Vines of Vastwood was barely playable, but just as often sat quietly in sideboards. I liked the idea of Briarhorn, but didn't bring it in cause I knew it couldn't compete. Agony Warp caused tons of blowouts here, too, but it was the removal aspect that people were taking it for.

All that's to say that I agree with your hypothesis - combat tricks can't thrive in a typical high-power cube.

My take on it is this. For combat tricks to do their duty, high quality, universal removal has to be toned down. It's hard to justify jamming a Giant Growth if you put your opponent on Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt, Terminate, or one of the myriad other cheap removal spells. The chance of getting eaten alive during combat is just too high. Good sorcery speed removal - your O Rings, Wraths, Flametongues - also contributes to the problem. If you know that creature attrition is high in the cube metagame, you want to increase your deck's creature density, and decrease the number of spells that rely on creatures sticking.

RTR limited is a great example of a combat trick laden environment done well. Selesnya alone had something like six combat tricks in the mix. At the same time, most of the set's removal was conditional, or expensive. Your gold creatures are immune to Ultimate Price; your opponent needs 6 open mana for Explosive Impact; their empty board means they can't cast Launch Party. And so on.

Toning down removal in a cube environment has a cascading effect. If removal is now going to miss half the creatures, or require some finesse to set up, creatures in turn need to be dialed back. Otherwise, the likes of Hero of Bladehold or Wolfir Silverheart will end every game on the spot. To say nothing of the game-dominating Titans, which cubes are having trouble containing even now.

If creatures are weakened, spells might also need to take a hit to fall in line. I don't know. I don't want to think about it any more.

Anyways. This is why I'm so eager to see Kevin's cube. :)

[Dom Harvey]

Excellent post, Eric

[Jason Waddell]

Slaughterhorn is interesting, particularly with my Double Strike subtheme. The creature side isn't completely embarrassing either. :P I wonder if I should drop Experiment One for it. Don't really have enough data on either. 

[Calvin Chan]

I think Eric hit the nail on the head.  With quality creatures and removal, simple effects like giant growth just lose a ton of value against excellent versatile removal in high powered cubes.  There are many ways to adjust a cube to accommodate them, but overall I think generic pump effects are narrow.  Compared to charms burn, -x/-x effects that get jammed into on-colour decks, only the aggressive green-based decks would want an effect like vines of vastwood.  From experience with Eric's cube, these cards that fit into one or two fringe archetypes will usually go around the table many times.

[FlowerSunRain]

I'm not disagreeing with you that pump spells are probably bad choices to include in a high power cube.

However, in every pack there will always be a card that goes 12th, 13th, 14th and last.  Having some cards that "only go into fringe archetypes" gives those fringe archtypes the unique advantage that they can aggressively go after speculative or universally desirable cards and be fairly confident that they will still get solid playables later on.  Cards like Cloudfin Raptor, Giant Growth or Jokulhaups can be valuable because of their limited nature.

Remember, in a booster draft, you are going to have 15-20 cards not in your deck regardless of whats in your cube.  Having some fringe cards is ok.

Obviously, that doesn't mean giant growth should be that fringe card, though.

[Jason Waddell]

15 - 20? You underestimate my unquenchable thirst for lands. 

[Eric Chan]

The current Standard environment - where Giant Growth, the Henry Ford Model T of pump effects, is marginally playable - gives me hope that crafting a relatively high power environment that supports ol' fashioned combat tricks is viable.

If we compare current Standard to the Standard of the past couple of seasons, there are a couple of immediate differences that strike the eye:

 - Removal has gone from cheap and universal, to conditional and slightly clunky. Lightning Bolt and Searing Blaze have given way to Pillar of Flame and Searing Spear. Path to Exile and Journey to Nowhere have turned into Pacifism. Go for the Throat, Disfigure, and Doom Blade are now Ultimate Price, Tragic Slip, and Murder. Vapor Snag has been downgraded into Unsummon. Dismember and Gut Shot are things of the past. The list goes on.

 - Creatures are, on the whole, less game-dominating and more fair. Most notably, the six mana behemoths' reign of terror has passed. Hero of Bladehold, a kill-on-sight target, is no longer a factor. Olivia Voldaren is about the scariest thing in the format.

The power level of ISD/RTR Standard is maybe a bit lower than what a typical cube designer is aiming for. But there's probably something to be learned by observing the pillars of the format, where the boundaries for power level are set.

[Eric Chan]

Kevin, I don't disagree that narrow, niche cards have a role to play in cube draft. Especially when it comes to rewarding drafters for diving into a specialized archetype.

However, what I've found is that for these niche cards to offset their narrow scope, they have to repay that debt in sheer power. +3/+3 to a creature won't cut it in a word where Lightning Bolt exists. For it to be maindeckable, I'd need a bigger incentive. Maybe something like +5/+4 for a single mana.

The narrow cards in my own cube right now need to do heavy lifting to justify their presence - Lava Spike, Confiscate, Act of Aggression, to name a few. They may not fit in a lot of decks, but they need to provide a unique or powerful effect when they're called upon. Unfortunately, pump spells are mostly made obsolete by good removal - at least that's the case with my cube, and in most typical high-powered cube environments.

[FlowerSunRain]

Well, 15 unplayed would be ~6 lands drafted along with 24 nonland cards.  That's 13% of the card pool, assuming not a single land went unplayed, which seems unlikely.  It seemed like a reasonable assumption, but if I'm wrong, then I guess I did underestimate your unquenchable thirst for land.  What percent of your card pool is lands?

[Jason Waddell]

I have 46 lands in my 360 cube (12.8%), plus a weird add-on I am experimenting with that adds 24 lands. So about 9 lands per player, and some get more than that. I'm really on the fence as to whether the add-on is any good though, still tweaking. I'll make a thread. 

Also, even if the expected value is 6 lands per drafter, some people (aka me) will take an unreasonable amount more than that. I've had a draft where I had 6 lands after 8 picks. Less common now that people are getting better at my cube. 

[Christopher Morris-Lent]

this is an interesting discussion to resurrect. i don't like pump spells that are just pump spells enough to include them, not with charms and bloodrush and kicker running around.

some favorites:

boros charm, wrecking ogre, ghor-clan rampager, vines of vastwood, jund charm

possible:

harm's way, faith's shield, selesnya charm, simic charm

everyone should try wrecking ogre. it's (a) effective and (b) really funny. in my cube i estimate it as slightly better than thundermaw (but worse than siege-gang commander).

i don't think a high concentration is desirable. cube isn't drafting a new world order set -- there's enough going on already that combat tricks can benefit from a light touch.

[James Stevenson]

I just added Swift Justice but I haven't gotten a chance to play with it yet. I had so many wonderful blowouts with it in RtR that I thought it was worth a shot. Anybody tried it? I'd also like to run Brute Force just because I like the card, but I don't know if I ever will.

[FlowerSunRain]

I was really surprised that Wrecking Ogre was almost completely ignored by the MTG community.  When I saw it, I knew that it was a winner.  I had the same reaction as you Chris: this card is better then Thundermaw!  Better, both in the amount of burst damage it does (6 if you use it on a 0 power creature!) and in the amount of gameplay (you can't just tap all the fliers and beat face). 

I agree you don't want too huge a concentration.  I think I have 10-12 in my 600, almost all of which have legitimate other purposes besides being a
trick" (Simic Charm, Vines of Vastwood, Grim Servitude, the Bloodrush dudes, etc.).

[Jason Waddell]

I don't have time for a long drawn out post, but isn't one of the interesting parts of limited environments that there is a moderately high density of known-quantity combat tricks so that you can actually play around them and interact with your opponent? 

If I only have a handful that all do different things, then I'm never going to play around them. I'm just going to assume the other person doesn't have them (which will usually be right) and get blown out when they do. That's perhaps not the most compelling decision space to be playing in. When you push the balance of that decision, then you introduce more reading and mind-games into the environment. 

[James Stevenson]

You make a compelling argument, Jason. I guess it's different being the guy who knows the cube inside out.

[FlowerSunRain]

Well, like I said before, I'm not a Magic Player.  I'm a game player who enjoys Magic.  I play my cube twice a month tops.  Usually just once.  Sometimes zero times.  The cube often dramatically changes each time I play it.  There is never much of a known-quantity of anything.  So, no, the purpose of tricks for me is not to attempt to interact and play around them.  Its for setting up awesome blowouts.  Its for making the games we do play surprising and varied.  Its for the joy of entering the draft having no idea what you are going to build this time, but being confident it'll be awesome.

I'm sure if i played weekly (or more) I'd have a a different opinion.

[tomc...@gmail.com]

I love combat tricks, and am constantly looking for more. Can you consider "creatures with flash" combat tricks? I'm keeping Yeva in for that reason.

So far, I have mostly cubed with the same people over and over again--largely two-player. I have a one-minute introduction to my cube just about memorized, quickly explaining the power level, key archetypes that are supported, and the combat tricks and morph cards. Oh, and Mana Tithe, for those who haven't cubed... It doesn't take too long.

More people should test Harm's Way. It's sometimes a 3-for-1 for one mana, and usually a 2-for-1. It screws up combat math for one mana more than you'd believe. I recently was in a bad way with my WG tokens/Wake deck against a BR aggro deck, and an Arc Lightning that would have killed two of my mana elves instead zapped his own Goblin Guide.

FlowerSunRain, what other games do you play, out of curiosity? (Our cube last night was skipped in favor of Glory to Rome...)

[FlowerSunRain]

Umm, everything?

Currently, I'm playing a lot of Netrunner, League of Legends and am enjoying Copycat a good deal.

Some of my all time favorites include Imperial, Caylus, Taj Mahal, Bridge, Chicago Express, 18XX Games (not that I ever have the time to get a game going anymore.  1830, 1860, 1861 and 1880 are my favorites), Baltimore and Ohio, Descent: Journey's in the Dark (First Edition), Power Grid, Keythedral, Ra, Amun-Re, The Princes of Florence, Maharaja, Blood Bowl and Cutthroat Caverns.

Also my parents enjoy Dominion, so we play that frequently too.

On Thursday, April 18, 2013 12:28:04 PM UTC-4, tomc...@gmail.com wrote:

I love combat tricks, and am constantly looking for more. Can you consider "creatures with flash" combat tricks? I'm keeping Yeva in for that reason.

So far, I have mostly cubed with the same people over and over again--largely two-player. I have a one-minute introduction to my cube just about memorized, quickly explaining the power level, key archetypes that are supported, and the combat tricks and morph cards. Oh, and Mana Tithe, for those who haven't cubed... It doesn't take too long.

More people should test Harm's Way. It's sometimes a 3-for-1 for one mana, and usually a 2-for-1. It screws up combat math for one mana more than you'd believe. I recently was in a bad way with my WG tokens/Wake deck against a BR aggro deck, and an Arc Lightning that would have killed two of my mana elves instead zapped his own Goblin Guide.

FlowerSunRain, what other games do you play, out of curiosity? (Our cube last night was skipped in favor of Glory to Rome...)

On Thursday, April 18, 2013 9:02:52 AM UTC-7, FlowerSunRain wrote:

[Christopher Morris-Lent]

real quick:

jason makes a good point, though i'd say that playing around a variety of tricks can be fun. in RTR draft you had to guess if he had chorus of might, giant growth, swift justice etc. they all did different things and they could have any combination of them, or none at all. i think that's fun design space. mostly it didn't matter though, since you were playing against selesnya and just losing anyway...

i agree that swift justice is the best limited combat trick printed in years. since vines of vastwood, let's say. or was the best until gtc. rampager is amazing.

my favorite limited combat trick of all time is carom. nice gelectrode, bro!

people overlook wrecking ogre because it's not constructed-playable. just an example of how playing a lot of standard / modern / legacy competitively can also restrict your imagination and worsen existing cognitive biases.

i just checked out eric's old post and am hesitant to put in more pure combat tricks in the cube for the 'underpowered' reason. the 'narrow' reason also comes to mind. there's enough weird stuff that happens during combat, anyway -- you could even classify bit-blast as a trick if you wanted.

if i were to put in more tricks, i'd try vines, harm's way, faith's shield.

On Thursday, April 18, 2013 9:28:04 AM UTC-7, tomc...@gmail.com wrote:

I love combat tricks, and am constantly looking for more. Can you consider "creatures with flash" combat tricks? I'm keeping Yeva in for that reason.

So far, I have mostly cubed with the same people over and over again--largely two-player. I have a one-minute introduction to my cube just about memorized, quickly explaining the power level, key archetypes that are supported, and the combat tricks and morph cards. Oh, and Mana Tithe, for those who haven't cubed... It doesn't take too long.

More people should test Harm's Way. It's sometimes a 3-for-1 for one mana, and usually a 2-for-1. It screws up combat math for one mana more than you'd believe. I recently was in a bad way with my WG tokens/Wake deck against a BR aggro deck, and an Arc Lightning that would have killed two of my mana elves instead zapped his own Goblin Guide.

FlowerSunRain, what other games do you play, out of curiosity? (Our cube last night was skipped in favor of Glory to Rome...)

On Thursday, April 18, 2013 9:02:52 AM UTC-7, FlowerSunRain wrote:

[Chris Taylor (The Bakaist)]

I think people overlook Wrecking ogre because of all the awesome cards at 5 in red :(

Currently I have Kiki-Jiki, Thundermaw Helkite, Zealous Conscripts, Chandra Nalar and Seige Gang Commander, and love them all.

I kinda don't wanna add another for fear of the curve.

Has anyone got a chance to play with the new buyback bloodrush guy, Pyrewild Shaman?

R2

Creature - Goblin Shaman

3/1

Bloodrush R1

Whenever one or more creatures you control deals combat damage to a player, you may pay 3. If you do, return ~ to your hand.

Reminds me of Hammer of Bogarden in a good way

[Jason Waddell]

Pyrewild is a little difficult to evaluate for me. My gut instinct is that it compares poorly to Reckless Charge (and possibly even Slaughterhorn). The recursion is really slow. However, it may be just what you need to push though damage. Then again, five mana is a ton to pay to recycle this sort of effect. How many times is my aggro deck going to want or be able to pay for that? Don't I have better things to be doing? And if I am hitting with Bloodrushed guys for a couple turns, won't the game already be over? 

Hard to say, but I think at my cube's power level it's a pass. Fun looking card for elsewhere though. 

[Christopher Morris-Lent]

reckless charge is bonkers. 

the new guy is more comparable to thunderblade charge, which is imo really playable.

chris: i often rotate things in and out at 5+ cmc, though i always keep conscripts, sgc, kiki. maybe try cutting thundermaw or chandra for a week?

[Chris Taylor (The Bakaist)]

Might do that, yeah. Shes not really a fan favorite around here the way the rest of them are