[SCD] Ral Zarek

[Jason Waddell]

Hey guys, I don't really know how best to organize the forums with regard to new card discussion. Maybe I'll end up making a second group to house SCD stuff. Anyways, spoiler season is upon us. Izzet gets a spell that isn't a Damage + Draw variant. 

2UR Planeswalker - Ral [M]
[+1]: Tap target permanent, then untap another target permanent.
[-2]: Ral deals 3 damage to target creature or player.
[-7]: Flip five coins. Take an extra turn after this one for each coin that comes up heads.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/242

[Eric Chan]

At this nascent stage of this forum's life, I don't think we can afford to split off discussion into multiple subgroups yet. I think it's fine to gum up the main forum with individual card discussion for the time being. After all, who doesn't love preview season!

Anyways. I have no idea how playable the "world's best thief" is, as it's been notoriously tricky to evaluate new planeswalkers. But I will say that I love that ultimate.

Edit: On second thought, maybe he isn't all that difficult to evaluate, after all. His first two abilities are roughly analogous to Ajani Vengeant's, right down to the loyalty costs, and he even has the same converted mana cost. He has an extra point of starting loyalty over everyone's favourite cat planeswalker.

Having Lightning Bolt be his main defensive mechanism isn't a huge downgrade from Ajani's Lightning Helix. Indeed, that extra loyalty makes all the difference in the world when you're able to fire off two bolts in successive turns. The plus ability could be what makes or breaks Ral, and it's here that I think he falls a little short. Locking down their best creature or their most important land was a key component of Ajani's power, and Ral doesn't let you stifle their mana production in the same way. Instead, you can falter a key blocker, reuse your best land for mana, make your biggest creature vigilant, or mix and match all of the above. It seems like a fine ability, but not earth shattering. I'm probably the least capable brewer on this forum, though, so there could be a million uses for this ability that I'm missing.

Ajani Vengeant set the bar really high for planeswalkers, though, and even a poor man's version could be a reasonable inclusion.

[Jason Waddell]

The fact that his +1 is a bit perplexing is probably my favorite part about the card. You can't do falter + vigilance, obviously. There are other strange implications though. Tap down a mana to prevent their Doom Blade, then cast your creature second main phase? Tap it in first-main phase to limit the mana they have for playing counterspells?

I love that the ultimate is a binomial distribution simulation. Wizards is training an army of statisticians. 

I don't play any Grim Monolith style cards, so the +1 probably won't ramp more than 1, so his +1 ramping capabilities are on par with Koth. 

All in all Ral feels a bit like a fixed Ajani Vengeant. I also like that it is a splashy card that encourages people to play a really cool color combination that feels underplayed. Boros sees a ton of play, due to the natural overlaps and the huge draw of their gold cards. I want to keep my Planeswalker saturation down, so I very well may see Ajani leave to make way for Ral Zarek. 

[Calvin Chan]

I agree completely Jason.  This looks like a fixed ajani vengeant.  First thoughts I had was this is the first (i think), blue walker that's not meant for control.  I love the versatility of his first ability.  You can play tempo and make an extra mana and the same time!  and it interacts with a ton of other cards and effects.  The second ability is fair, and the third ability is interesting, but doesn't necessarily win you the game immediately.  I think he's a pretty nice incentive to play red/blue.
I'm looking forward to slotting him into my cube.

[Christopher Morris-Lent]

only one way to find out :)

(fwiw i think it's in the right area for cube power level. better than 4cmc chandra or 5cmc lilly, comparable to 4cmc sorin, worse than wildspeaker, goldmane, vengeant)

there are also not a lot of great izzet cards for cube beyond electrolyze and maybe izzet charm and call the skybreaker

[Eric Chan]

Dunno if it's because Chapin brainwashed me, but I'm fond of Desperate Ravings. It might be my favourite Izzet card in cube.

[Christopher Morris-Lent]

that's a sweet one, but can graveyard decks benefit enough from the random discard to make it playable? (given the glut of good draw spells available in cube, think twice is not something i'd consider and it only costs one color)

[Eric Chan]

Yeah, at the end of the day, Ravings is Just Another Draw Spell. It's probably not even on the same power level as Electrolyze, which all but guarantees you pure value. But I like that for a card filtering spell, it has a decent amount of play to it. I don't think I've seen the random discard power up the graveyard enough to make that aspect notable. But the nature of the random discard forces you to evaluate the optimal time to pull the trigger, and the flashback cost lets you pitch it to looting effects will still retaining part of its value. It's at its best when your hand is the worst, and at its worst when your hand is best, which is what most everyone wants out of their card draw. For that matter, I don't really see it as stacking up directly against Think Twice - really, Think Twice is to Divination as Desperate Ravings is to, I dunno, Careful Consideration. While the net gain of all of these spells is two cards, digging four deep gives you a lot more gas, and is an effect that scales very well with the power level of your deck. You know, Preordain / Ponder banned in old formats but not in Standard, etc.

So it's probably not for everyone, but count me as a fan. Izzet Charm, though? Eff that.

[Rob Dennis]

So it's probably not for everyone, but count me as a fan. Izzet Charm, though? Eff that.

>:( That is not ok.

Zarek looks pretty fun and I'm definitely going to sleeve him up. Probably in place of Prophetic Bolt.

[Jason Waddell]

I'm not sure what I'll swap out: 

Electrolyze

Fire // Ice

Izzet Charm

Anybody have convincing arguments?

[Eric Chan]

Heh, I was being facetious. I figure Izzet Charm is actually fine, in all likelihood. I just have an unnatural dislike for it. All of the three modes seem underpowered and situational at best. But it does provide options, which is something we as cube designers are always looking to bump up.

[FlowerSunRain]

 I really don't like Izzet Charm.  Unlike, say, Simic Charm where it gives me the choice between two spells I already play (and one more option that can be helpful), Izzet Charm lets me pick between three effects I don't think are worth playing.  It probably manages to be useful more often then not, but the card isn't interesting in the least.

[Jason Waddell]

This is pretty surprising news to me. This is probably the first I've heard of people not liking Izzet Charm. It may be related to my outrageous love for Spell Pierce, which has a pretty spectacular hit rate. It is often a kill spell, and double looting at instant speed is always a fun play. It's probably my favorite charm to play with. 

On the whole I hold all the Izzet spells in pretty high regard. I'm leaning towards benching Fire // Ice, which is probably pretty blasphemous. In the big picture Fire // Ice vs Electrolyze doesn't really matter. Electrolyze is a Gigadrowse away from being a fused Fire // Ice anyways, and the choice between them doesn't really affect the balance of archetypes in any meaningful way. This feels pretty deep in the range of "personal preference". It's things like this that make me wish for an assistant that will rotate 4 cards through 3 slots each week, to give me the superficial variety without actually changing anything. 

[Christopher Morris-Lent]

i dislike izzet charm in principle. it's hard to cast (even in my mono-fixing cube this is not a virtue) and all its modes are underpowered. but it sure helps you pitch something to reanimate! i think it's a narrow inclusion in smaller cubes with a lot of fixing and strong graveyard themes, simple exclusion otherwise.

on the other hand, i can't imagine a cube that wants simic charm.

of the guild charms boros charm seems like the only must-include in cube. the shard ones are even harder to cast and i think only jund charm is worth it (though again it may not be good enough without a graveyard theme)

On Monday, April 8, 2013 12:57:00 AM UTC-7, Jason Waddell wrote:

[Eric Chan]

I have Azorius Charm in my cube at the moment, and it's doing some decent (read: annoying) work for the control decks, in much the same way as in Standard. But its effect isn't anything unique, and doesn't feel special enough to warrant a gold slot. It'll probably come out when I acquire a Sphinx's Revelation.

If Titans are a big deal in your cubes, I could see an argument for Selesnya Charm. It's nice that the other two options aren't usually blanks for aggro decks, either. But WG cube sections are already packed to the brim with goodies.

I prefer Faithless Looting to Izzet Charm for filling up my graveyard. You can even ditch the spell to another looter, and still loot! It's all the reanimator player in me could ever ask for.

It's actually funny that everyone feels so strongly for or against Izzet Charm. Nobody is on the fence - it's either "RAWRGH BAD!" or "love all the options!". Speaking for myself, I assume the only reason that people in the thumbs down camp haven't voiced their dislike for the card is that it's easy to feel muzzled on other forums, when your opinion doesn't match the prevailing groupthink.

[Calvin Chan]

I have a similar view as Jason.  I love the options of izzet charm.  I see it as an optimal card for the red/blue tempo deck, though i think it's value plummets for any other build because the modes aren't as powerful in the late game.
The number of charms in cube really goes down to the number of slots you're willing to give to them and which archetypes you're trying to support.  Boros charm is fairly boring to me, but I like the options and potential of simic and ozhov charm.

Going back to the original reason we started derailing, I think the cut should be fire/ice.  It's already very similar to electrolyze, and I don't like that it might get played in a red deck with no blue, since ice is not too impressive.  I like gold cards that make players commit and consider risks.

[Jason Waddell]

Ice is probably the undervalued half in my opinion. The number of times that card is a cantripping Silence is a little absurd. 

I prefer Faithless Looting to Izzet Charm for filling up my graveyard. You can even ditch the spell to another looter, and still loot! It's all the reanimator player in me could ever ask for.

Lol Eric. "I prefer an effect that costs R (with optional flashback) to an effect that costs UR." Okay, instant speed quibbles are there too. :) 

[FlowerSunRain]

Ice is awesome.  I find I cast Ice just as much as fire and that I am just as likely to put Ice in a deck with no blue as fire in a deck with no red (that is, almost never, but its better then an extra basic).

And my cube doesn't just like Simic Charm, its heads-over-heels in love with it.  My friend was crushed when he learned I was running it: he really wanted it in his Tier 2 cube.

On topic, Ral Zarek is a slam dunk for me.  He's got interesting options and doesn't seem like he would cause me any problems.

[Christopher Morris-Lent]

hey now, i'm firmly in the "i barely want izzet charm" camp :)

fire//ice is OK, could be worth putting in again (i think i cut it for arc trail. violent eruption in a similar vein is also all kinds of fun, ditto fiery justice)

agreed azorius and selesnya could be played.

faithless is a snap include in my cube and i have trouble imagining cubes that don't drool over it

flowers, could you elaborate on why simic charm is so sweet?

[FlowerSunRain]

I run Giant Growth.  I run Vapor Snag.  I find these effects valuable enough to dedicate a card to them.  Simic Charm is even better: I get both effects from a single card!  Green/Blue tempo always loves bounce, and unlike Red/Blue tempo or Red/Green aggro, doesn't have access to burn, making the pump effect very desirable for both trades and reach. 

And it does something else too.

Basically, the card gives you one effect you basically always want to have access to (unsummon), one mode that you want situational access to that is hard to get in these colors (giant growth) and one mode that occasionally could be useful (hexproof).  Its absolutely great.  Red/Blue decks want both burn and counters, but in the cube there are usually tons of those in cube and there are basically all better in both cost and quality. Cheap pump and bounce is generally an extremely small percentage of the cube, which makes it so valuable.

Its probably even better for people who DON'T run unsummon/giant growth because it makes its role even less replicable.

[Christopher Morris-Lent]

interesting, i don't run snag but could be persuaded to try it. giant growth is kind of a "meh" since i like bloodrush already.

do you also have coiling oracle? its one of my favorites

[FlowerSunRain]

I don't run coiling oracle.  I'm happy with the mono-green ramp cards as it is.  Simic Sky Swallower and Prime Speaker Zergana give people enough reason to put blue in there ramp decks without needing a green/blue card specifically for it.  Red/Green and White/Green ramp are both popular too.  I prefer to differentiate these decks by what they finish with (Jokulhaups, Wildfire, Form of the Dragon, Mirari's Wake, Armada Wurm, etc.) as opposed to how they get there.

I have nothing against the card and if you want to push ramp towards specifically blue green both it and urban evolution seem like good includes.

[Christopher Morris-Lent]

ooh urban is sweet. may try it. thanks!

psz is a neat card but i'm not a fan of fatties that suck as reanimator targets / durdle instead of putting immediate pressure on. as much as the titans pissed me off in standard in cube i am a fan. of course it's your call but simic charm and psz seem like they do very different things.

i hate jokulhaups ("if you control a walker, win the game") and find wake underwhelming but am interested in trying wildfire and form of the dragon again, can you describe how the decks look and what the games with those cards are like?

[FlowerSunRain]

Simic Charm and PSZ indeed do very different things.  They needn't be going in the same deck.

Red/Green ramp in general is a flashy, splashy and unstable deck type.  You attempt to build up, using value creatures  to survive until you can land something ridiculous sweeper where something of yours survives. Crater Hellion, Wildfire with a dude that survives it, Jokulhaups with a planeswalker, etc.  With form of the dragon, the formula changes slightly: you instead try to ignore whatever you can as long as you can so long as you have form of the dragon out, then cast form of the dragon and hope they can't answer it.  The deck is fun because your deck is forced to include a strange mix of cards to get things done (ramp, value creatures, spot removal, sweepers, fat) that each hand you get normally plays very different then the last.

[Christopher Morris-Lent]

yep, i'm with you. as much as decks that 'don't work half the time' annoy me i think the kind of 'power over consistency' thing you find in constructed ramp is a fun thing to have in cube.

with a ramp theme what kind of a curve are you looking at? my playgroup has been clamoring for more fatties, and with both reanimator and ramp supported it's gotta be better to err on the side of too many. (my cube is 405 cards, 328 spells, 45 4's, 30 5's, 12 6's, 7 7's, 5 8's.)

i just realized this thread is pretty off-topic. too late to do much now, though...