Gravecrawler Aggro

[Jason Waddell]

I've got a shipment of 3 Gravecrawlers coming in the mail, and am trying to transform my black section to give it a new identity. The idea is that you can still use them as your traditional 2-power one-mana beaters, but do so much more with them. 

At the same time, I am considering dropping reanimator entirely. Here are my current design plans: 

Out: 

Dread Return

Unburial Rites

Diabolic Servitude

Smokestack

Carnophage 

Diregraf Ghoul 

Sarcomancy

Vampire Lacerator

Pack Rat

Nezumi Graverobber

Seal of Fire

Devil's Play

Gore-House Chainwalker

Mikaeus, the Lunarch

Rofellos

Supreme Verdict

Sorin LOA

Survival of the Fittest

Griselbrand

In: 

Dryad Militant

Unearth

Entomb

Rotting Rats

Gravecrawler x3

Bloodghast

Cabal Therapy

Gitaxian Probe

Pillar of Flame

Red Sun's Zenith

Goblin Bombardment

Detention Sphere

Day of Judgment

Tidehollow Sculler

Greater Gargadon

Ranger of Eos

2x Birthing Pod 

Disciple of Bolas

Mikaeus, the Unhallowed

Wall of Roots

Terminus?

This is a pretty sweeping transformation, so I'll go over it a bit point by point. Entomb is a really interesting card that has a lot of applications (Gravecrawler, Bloodghast, Vengevine, Lingering Souls, Ancient Grudge, Squee, etc.), and is not completely lame when you take out Reanimator. 

I am also going to be testing out Cabal Therapy, as we will have a critical mass of creatures that can be sacrificed at little cost. Additionally, adding in some cards (Gitaxian Probe, Tidehollow Sculler) that are very interactive and interesting in their own rights, but also combine well with Gravecrawler. We expand on the sacrifice theme by using Disciple of Bolas, which I personally feel will be more interesting in application that something more explicit like Graveborn Muse. 

Rotting Rats combines well with these other cards, and it also allows you to overcommit to the board. You can put all your zombies on the table, then use the unearth ability to get the chain going again after a wrath.

With any change, we also want ways to interact with it. In comes Pillar of Flame, Red Sun's Zenith, Terminus and Detention Sphere. This brings the interesting element of having cards that are specifically good in some matchups, but certainly not bad elsewhere. I think this adds a lot to the control drafting, playing and sideboarding experience. One of my favorite limited aspects is when you pick up a card like Pillar of Flame to shore up your matchup against an archetype. Even without it though, there are tons of ways to interact with a zombie subtheme, unlike the Reanimator archetype. 

Next we have some Gravecrawler machine guns. Goblin Bombardment, Carrion Feeder, Greater Gargadon. I thought about Blood Artist, but it feels like that card will be really underwhelming. 

Lastly, Griselbrand out, Mikaeus the Unhallowed in. I'm not sure about this one, but I think it could be sweet. 

I feel pretty good about these changes, but testing will show what works and what doesn't. Are there some pieces of tech I'm missing?

[Eric]

Blood Artist is really good in the "machine gun" archetype. Worth a shot, at the very least.

I run Blasting Station alongside Feeder and Gargadon, and it's usually the MVP whenever I draw it. It's very close to a colorless Goblin Bombardment.

Nether Traitor does a passable Gravecrawler impression. Reassembling Skeleton, too.

To fill up my yard, I have some dredge cards (Darkblast, Golgari Thug, Stinkweed Imp), along with discard outlets (Oona's Prowler, Putrid Imp, Rotting Rats, blue looters). These enablers cross over with the reanimator archetype. Without reanimator, maybe Entomb is enough. But I still like having ways to pitch an uncastable Vengevine that's stuck in my hand.

[Jason Waddell]

Blasting Station is indeed a good suggestion. 

I'll test Blood Artist. What I'll need to keep an eye on is the balance between supporting an archetype and forcing it on your players. I've really never played with the card. Would a non-dedicated "machine gun" deck be interested in the effect?

As far as Nether Traitor and Reassembling Skeleton are concerned, they're simply below the power level of my cube and wouldn't get played, even with cute interactions. I don't need to jam them if I can just play more Gravecrawlers :)

I'll still have a fair share of discard outlets (Prowler, Lotleth Troll, Lilliana, Rats, Wild Mongrel). To be honest Vengevine's "alternate cost" has almost never happened in our drafts, but I'm sure that will change with Entomb and Gravecrawlers running around. Actually, that sounds like a plain nuisance (in a good way). Pay BB to cast two Gravecrawlers from the yard and get a Vengevine for free? Jeez.  

[Eric Chan]

Fair enough. With your cube being way faster than pretty much any cube I've ever seen, Reassembling Skeleton probably doesn't cut the mustard.

Blood Artist is, sadly, only useful when you have sacrifice effects and recursion creatures. I doubt straight R/B aggro would have any use for it. But it and Gravecrawler are best friends, and it doubles as good anti-Wrath protection.

Yeah, Vengevine was underwhelming for a long time for us when used in regular G/x aggro decks. Then I added the black recursion creatures, along with some self-mill, and suddenly his stock has gone up. I don't know if I'd play him in a black deck without access to green mana, but when I used him in BUG, he was fantastic.

[Jason Waddell]

Well, I guess it depends on what your expectations are. I just view it as a 4/3 Haste for 2GG and wouldn't ever consider it in a deck that couldn't hardcast it. Even with Entomb, I see the Gravecrawler/Vengevine interaction as a bonus for B/G decks. 

Anyways, the balance to strike here will be trying to make sure that we strike a good balance. For these type of archetypes I like to aim for "cool decks that can come together" rather than "you are wrong if you play a Gravecrawler deck without a machine gun", for example. That'll come from testing/tuning though. However, I think it's much better to have decks with SOME identity rather than no identity. Cubes often live only in the extremes of "generic aggro/midrange/control" and "very specific combo archetype". I think the space in the middle is much more interesting. 

I also want connections with Gravecrawler decks to each color.

Green - Lotleth Troll, Pod, Vengevine, (Putrid Leech), ...

Red - Goblin Bombardment, Greater Gargadon, Keldon Marauders, Hellspark Elemental, Hell's Thunder

White - Equipment w/ Disciple of Bolas (who is already pretty okay with crawler/ghast), Ranger of Eos, Tidehollow Sculler, ...?

Blue - ?Gitaxian Probe, Clique (does that count?), Unearth + Snapcaster, Looting

I wonder if Careful Study warrants reevaluation. 

[worstshacona]

Suture Priest is very interesting both with and against this strategy, but your power level might be too high for it.  Soul Warden is a very underrated card that works well with it and you can search for her with Ranger of Eos.  She also a "deal with it or lose" card for a lot of faster decks in a white tokens shell.  I also think Blood Artist is perfect for this idea, the card has been well loved by my group and we don't even include cards that will boost his power as much as you have.

[Jason Waddell]

I have to get something off my chest: I hate Suture Priest. 

It's probably not for a reason that anyone would guess. In the Mirrodin Besieged Gameday, our lazy store owner desided to hand out the New Phyrexia / Mirrodin Pure promos at random before the Top 8 was played, instead of to the top 2 affiliated Mirran and Phyrexian decks. Naturally I got a Suture Priest and won the tournament with a Mirran aligned deck. I was a little annoyed at the time, but I held my breath. After all, the third set would be Mirrodin Pure right? Wrong. 

So there that dumb Suture Priest is, worthless and sitting in a trade binder. I don't have the nerve to take it out. It just sits there, annoying me week after week. 

Will test Blood Artist. I pretty much test any card I'm not sure about instead of trying to theorycraft it. 

P.S. My shipment came in the mail from ChannelFireball today, just in time for my weekly Sunday draft (no Saturday mail here in Belgium). Can't wait to see the creepy crawlers in action. 

[Dom Harvey]

re. the cuts, you seem to be shaving a lot of cards that work well with the stuff you're replacing them with. Even if you drop reanimator I would keep Dread Return just because it works so well with the Gravecrawlers/Bloodghasts; likewise with Smokestack, Survival. Nezumi Graverobber seems like it gets a lot better: not only does it work well in the black aggro decks that should receive a boost, but it can work as hate against them out of other decks; I have a soft spot for the card in general though.

I really like the RSZ inclusion, and would second the Blasting Station suggestion. I'm not convinced Sculler is good enough even as a Zombie. I don't like Ranger of Eos as a Cube card in general but it's probably good/necessary with this move. As I said in the Pod thread, Butcher Ghoul could be nice as well.

I think the way you approach this topic has to be determined by how far you want to push graveyard effects. If you're cutting reanimator, a focus on aggro and sac outlets make a lot of sense. My inclination would be to push the graveyard theme as hard as possible: the full reanimation suite, dredge, discarders, etc.

Other good, cheap zombies: Putrid Imp, Lotleth Troll, Stillmoon Cavalier, Undead Gladiator

[Jason Waddell]

Man Dom, you are a wealth of good card suggestions. Really glad you're here!

Uh... Dread Return, yes. Perhaps I was a bit too sweeping with my cuts. Well, my main problem is space. Let me post my current list: http://deck.tk/2GEa5adk
If you have any specific cut  / reconfiguration suggestions on the topic I would be eternally grateful. 

Strange that you don't like Tidehollow Sculler. Maybe I am biased by the recent ChannelFireball Top 8 Orzhov card thingy that ranked it so highly?

As far as the configuration goes, I am currently putting this whole graveyard stuff at "subtheme" level. There is, like you say, room to push it further. My primary concern right now is getting Black aggro to the level where people want to play it. I can't say it's ever really been there. I also think there's a mechanical isolation issue. I wrote a stupid blog on this topic a while ago, and will give it the article treatment soon (now): http://moxmoxbalancego.blogspot.be/
I don't quite know where fully pushing graveyard would go w.r.t. Poison Principle, but I don't have it well conceptualized currently. I'll try to do some passive thinking about it, but I am still taking baby steps. Honestly my hope is that once I show a few archetypes that work well by breaking singleton and not power maximizing, others will jump on board and really push cube design to a whole new level. Currently my archetypes are a bit "obvious" perhaps. Not that they have to be creative and unexpected, but I do hope people like yourself with adventurous streaks join in. 

Other topics: 
Graverobber seemed great in theory, but even in the presence of the full on reanimator decks that folded to the card, he wasn't good. Smokestack I pushed for a long time, and never really liked it. The games I won with it were pretty lobsided, and the games where it just sat in my hand with no opportunity to cast it were pretty bad too. 

[Jason Waddell]

I prototyped a Gravecrawler aggro deck today, Brw, with pretty much the whole works (3 Gravecrawlers, Carrion Feeder, Rotting Rats, Tidehollow Sculler, Cabal Therapy, Goblin Bombardment, Ranger of Eos, Disciple of Bolas, Lingering Souls, etc.). It was a total blast to play, lots of tricky lines. 

I hit a Cabal Therapy blind, which pretty much gave me enough happiness to last me a week. The "machine gun" plays were possibly to pull off, but I also had to fight through a lot of my opponent's disruption. Tidehollow Sculler was spectacular. Many games played out in fun waves, where my board would get cleared and then I'd find a way to start repopulating. Very interactive games.

My opponent commented that he wanted a Syncopate or Dissipate style counterspell to give blue more ways of disrupting the deck. 

I really felt like I did not want Blood Artist, but really would have liked a Diregraf Captain style effect. I know it's super narrow, but I think it brings a nice element and ties some colors together in a new way. 

Ranger of Eos was awesome. Grabbing Carrion Feeder + Gravecrawler midgame was really fun. 

[Eric Chan]

Syncopate! Good call. I was just thinking I needed more exile effects to combat this archetype in my own cube, and the best part is that I can do a straight swap with Broken Ambitions, which has never been stellar.

It's funny. I've drafted the recursion creature deck a few times, and so far I've splashed every colour but white. Lingering Souls is something to think about, though.

I like that the deck plays "small ball", as GerryT would say. It has no way of going over the top. Instead, you have to work hard to eke out little advantages, and claw for every inch of ground. The wins are that much more satisfying. The other only deck I've found that makes me work harder is U/R tempo.

Are you sure you wouldn't have liked a Blood Artist? I still feel that you should give it a fair shake, and give it a try in your pre-con prototypes. Proxy it if you must - it's just testing. I know it's not the same format, but when Sam Black runs 3 of them in Legacy in a roughly analogous archetype, it's worth taking note.

[Jason Waddell]

See, this is what I love about this group. You guys challenge everything, but in a very respectful way. I'm making an order from my local store for my next 8-man draft, and I'll put Blood Artist on the list. It is true that I need to test with him. The only reason I didn't put in a proxy was laziness. I was already pretending Reanimate was Entomb, and didn't want to get myself too confused. 

Worth noting that although Sam's deck has many of the same cards, he has like triple the density of sacrifice outlets compared to a nearly perfectly optimized deck from my list. 

This deck also loved symmetrical sacrifice effects like Fleshbag Marauder and Innocent Blood. 

U/R Tempo is perhaps the most thrilling cube archetype I've played with. I still remember the first time I drafted it. Every time I won a game I felt like I had truly earned it, and that there were dozens of ways I could have lost the game with the same cards. 

It's worth noting that this is the first predominantly black aggro deck I've ever played that felt truly powerful. Usually I have black doing a supporting role while red or white do the heavy lifting, but this deck had like 13 black sources and could cast Geralf's Messenger reliably on Turn 3. Again, maybe not feasible in a real draft, but it was fun to see. 

[Eric Chan]

That just means you need more sac effects. ;) Get that Blasting Station in there, stat! I know Cooperfauss runs a Viscera Seer, but..  yeah. I'm not going that deep.

But you bring up a good point - the sacrifice outlets are nearly as important to the archetype as the recursive creatures. Especially if you're trying to tally up Blood Artist triggers. Mortarpod might be too slow for your cube, but it's been serviceable in mine. I've thought of giving the Rusalka sisters a try - particularly Plagued and Scorched - but haven't actually pulled the trigger. I went as far as acquiring Thoughtpicker Witch, but again, the power level seems a bit on the low side. Bloodthrone Vampire has the benefit that its sacrifice ability doesn't require mana, but it's pretty much just worse than Carrion Feeder in every way.

I think with the high quality fixing that you provide, BBB by turn 3 - or turn 4 at the latest - isn't unrealistic at all. For whatever reason, I routinely splash two colours alongside black when I build this archetype - that's pushing the boundaries for me - and the mana usually works out fine. Blood Crypts just aren't popular, at least compared to Watery Graves.

I could probably spend a lot more time discussing U/R tempo. But I'll save that for the inevitable thread. It's a sweet, sweet deck.

And yeah, I'm feeling the love for this group, too. I can honestly say I've learned more about cube design in the last half week than I have in, well, the last half year.

[Eric Chan]

Oh! It totally slipped my mind for a second, but the reason I started going overboard on sacrifice outlets in my own cube is because I wanted to buff treason effects, in order to give aggro more punch against midrange. Titan got you down? Nab it for a turn, and then let your hungry 1/1 zombie chow down on it. Nom nom nom.

Besides Zealous Conscripts, I've added Act of Aggression, and am considering Mark of Mutiny. It's probably too janky, but. Hey. Gotta give the guy holding Primeval Titan something to think about, you know? They hit six mana and they think they're so cool.

[Jason Waddell]

Alright, so here's probably the critical point, as we're getting into Poison Principle territory. If I want to push the number of sacrifice outlets, I need to create a desire for this sort of effect that extends beyond the scope of just the zombie subtheme. Threaten effects are a great starting point. 

One of the troubles I had when I pushed this sort of theme a couple years ago was that I would find a couple of these effects, but I couldn't really find decks that wanted them over the other things on offer. It may have just been a critical mass issue. One thing I've found with certain archetypes is that there can be a "no man's land" point where either fewer or more of that effect would be better, but if you're stuck in the middle you have cards that don't really do anything for your environment. What I need is to find a way to go from "a few sac outlets" to "many more sac outlets" without isolating it mechanically from my set too much. 

[Dom Harvey]

Nantuko Husk is more expensive than the other 'sac a guy to pump itself' creatures, but it's a Zombie so it can start that chain by itself. Phyrexian Altar is interesting if you have enough cards that benefit from creatures coming into play/dying. There's Gutless Ghoul if you're really desperate. As for other Zombies, Shambling Shell digs for Gravecrawlers, recurs itself, and then lets you cast them. Stronghold Assassin + Gravecrawler lets you gun down a creature every turn. Grimgrin is a very, very clunky but powerful Carrion Feeder.

Smallpox/Pox/Death Cloud(/Devastating Dreams/Wildfire etc.) become better by enough that I'd try them if they're currently borderline for you.

[Jason Waddell]

Knock knock? 

Who's there?

Sarkhan?

Sarkhan who?

I don't really have a punchline here. 

Conquering Masticore? Jinxed Idol? Tibalt Ultimate????

I don't know what I'm doing. 

[Jason Waddell]

Grimgrim... I looked at it a lot. I think I like Diregraf Captain more, as it's a card defensive decks will also draft. Deathtouch is a pretty relevant ability. 

Phyrexian Altar is an infinite combo with gravecrawler. Add in a death trigger thing and it's an instant win. Card feels kind of useless outside of that scenario, which doesn't really appeal to me as a designer. I'm okay with cards doing broken things on occasion / in the right circumstances, but if that's their only purpose in life I'm not really a fan. 

I run and like Smallpox, and have run Pox and Death Cloud in the past. I am sure they become better as cards, but I already have a huge problem with black's excessive color requirements. I'm pushing the boundary as is, and I can't afford to push it further. 

Currently I'm looking more for cards that are good with Gravecrawlers but would also be good in other contexts. Also cool tech that is good against Gravecrawler decks are also needed. I've been toying with the idea of Curse of Death's Hold, but don't know how it would fare. 

[Eric Chan]

Dom, your encyclopedic knowledge of old Magic cards is scary. As is your ability to combine them with modern era cards in ways nobody else has thought of. Impressive - but scary.

I have one question for you. Are you man or machine?

[Hannes Versmissen]

I really like Gutless Ghoul for all it's worth. it's such a simple and clean sacrifice outlet.

Op zondag 17 maart 2013 21:27:34 UTC+1 schreef Dom Harvey het volgende:

[Dom Harvey]

A few more cards that work well with the additional sac outlets (there's naturally a lot of crossover with Birthing Pod, which is another reason I love that both of these ideas are being considered at the same time): Young Wolf, Mogg War Marshal, Doomed Traveler as cheap ways to spread the love across a few different colours, possibly Perilous Myr and/or Safehold Elite as well. Tuktuk the Explorer is cute. Rotlung Reanimator is both a Zombie and a sac enabler, and gets even better if you can find some good Clerics. Marsh Flitter is a really nice midrange card, both as a value creature in normal decks and a source of bodies for cards like Goblin Bombardment or Attrition (which should definitely be in imo if it isn't already).

Protean Hulk is probably the perfect top end card here: if you can't win after triggering it, you're doing something wrong :)

(There's Skirk Ridge Exhumer - also a Zombie! - if you want to go really deep)

[Jason Waddell]

Tuktuk! That is so good actually. Definitely loving the Perilous Myr suggestion too, exactly what I was looking for. Safehold Elite is also not the worst, I'll try it out. Thanks again for some great suggestions!

Edit: Attrition! I had no idea that card existed. I wonder if it's too strong with so many gravecrawlers running around. Not many ways to stop it once it gets going. What do you guys think? Do Attrition + Gravecrawler / Bloodghast games sound like fun?

[Eric Chan]

I agree, Attrition seems like a fantastic addition to the archetype. If anything, you might want to add that one, but cut back on the number of recurrable creatures. Are you up to 3 Gravecrawler and 2 Bloodghast now? In a tight 360 list, I wonder if you're reaching the point where the deck becomes too consistent. Especially as no one will fight you for those narrow cards.

[Jason Waddell]

If there's anything I've learned from reading lots of design files it's to overdo things to start to see what works, then dial it back to an acceptable level. This gives you more information, gets the players attention, etc. 

Right now I'm at 4 Gravecrawlers and 2 Bloodghasts, but who knows what's right. You're right about nobody fighting for the narrow cards, which is why I am trying to make this less narrow (i.e. Threaten effects, red wanting sac via Tuktuk, etc.). If you will, right now we're in design. We just want to have an outline of how this dynamic works and connects the different parts of our set. In "development" I tune and tweak. Both sides are important, but your input is much more valuable on the design side of things. If I don't have good ideas to start with no amount of tweaking will get me there. 

What I don't like about Attrition is the ratio of narrowness to power. Gravecrawlers recurring for B can be dealt with, 1 damage for B can be dealt with too. Recurring creature kill for BB? I can imagine that being a really lame game. I'll try it, but it seems like a source of frustration, whereas the other ideas seem more dynamic to play against. I'm just trying to be conscious of what's good in our set versus what makes for good Magic. Maybe I'm being too conservative here. 

I can say that I doubt any deck would play Attrition if that deck weren't completely broken with it. This is where non power-maximization is tricky. 

[Eric Chan]

Fair enough. All of your arguments make sense, especially the one about overdoing the initial design to try and gauge the type of gameplay that results. A true Maro disciple!

You bring up really interesting points about cube design vs. cube development. Truth be told, I'd never thought of it that way before. But it immediately clicked. We're designing a Magic gameplay environment and metagame. Why shouldn't we follow Wizards' tried and tested approach to doing so?

I don't know if you have an article in the works for this topic already, but it seems like a great topic to cover. Especially for the enterprising, up-and-coming cube designer who's new to the craft.

[Jason Waddell]

I actually read a lot more of David Sirlin's stuff than Mark Rosewater, but both are very good. 

Uh... article topics. At first I thought cube was a very shallow topic (not many potential articles). But now I have a dozen or so ideas with more popping up each week. I'm getting published once per two weeks, so at this rate I have infinite articles! 

Well, actually, I'm still scared of running dry. Truth be told I don't know if I can get motivated to cover the more "mundane" topics. I am looking forward to doing my first set review, which will be very different (I hope) from traditional Cube set reviews. I find the whole "this card is a 720 staple" thing a little patronizing, particularly if it's coming from people who don't run a cube of that size. It also presumes singleton power maximization, which... hopefully you know I'm not on board with. :)

There's also the fear that everyone will hate my stuff and my articles stop, in which case I want to have my most important ideas already out there. I'm not the best at pacing myself. 

[Dom Harvey]

I'm a big fan of both Sirlin and Rosewater as well.

At the risk of spamming, Helm of Possession and Eldrazi Monument?

[Jason Waddell]

Look Dom, you've got free reign here, no need to worry about spamming :)

Eldrazi Monument sounds great and splashy. Will pick up a copy. Helm of Possession is a card I've never played with, will test. 

[Rob Dennis]

One thing to consider with the Mikaeus, the Unhallowed swap, is that there's a few infinite combos that are now online if that's something you're interested in. Triskelion is fringe playable in regular cubes as an example.

[Dom Harvey]

I think the risk of games being 'unfun' due to Attrition lock is real but probably necessary. Grinding somebody out with Gravecrawlers isn't as realistic if they can just jam a Titan or whatever; you need to make up for the difference in raw power by letting the synergy between your recursive/value creatures and the enablers affect the game in a truly meaningful way. In addition, it's not automatic game over in the way that a card like Contamination (which I definitely wouldn't run) would be.

And, because this wouldn't be a post without some janky card suggestions: Culling Dais, Ritual of the Machine, Promise of Bunrei, Perilous Forays (?!)

On Monday, March 18, 2013 2:01:26 PM UTC, Jason Waddell wrote:

Tuktuk! That is so good actually. Definitely loving the Perilous Myr suggestion too, exactly what I was looking for. Safehold Elite is also not the worst, I'll try it out. Thanks again for some great suggestions!

Edit: Attrition! I had no idea that card existed. I wonder if it's too strong with so many gravecrawlers running around. Not many ways to stop it once it gets going. What do you guys think? Do Attrition + Gravecrawler / Bloodghast games sound like fun?

[Eric Chan]

The question about including some of these cards that can lock out an opponent might come down to power vs. consistency. On the one hand, including a full playset of Gravecrawlers and a duo of Bloodghasts in a tight 360 cube enables a drafter to regularly craft the black aggro recursion deck, with all its resultant synergies. On the other, including too many powerful combos with the recursion creatures threatens to give the archetype access to repeatable, unfun effects all too easily.

It feels to me like this is similar to the issue that Jason went through when reevaluating his reanimator support. The archetype, in his experience, was both very consistent and very powerful. He opted to keep the consistency, by maintaining the same density of support for the archetype, while lowering the power, by swapping out Reanimate for the likes of Dread Return.

I assume Jason values the consistency of this new archetype just as highly, and is willing to sacrifice power to ensure that the deck is easy to assemble. I'm supporting black recursion aggro, too, and in my case, I'll probably lower the knob on consistency by a notch - only 2 Gravecrawlers, 1 Bloodghast, 1 Reassembling Skeleton, 1 Nether Traitor - while dialing up the power a hair, with effects like Braids, Cabal Minion. Attrition seems like too much, though, even for me.

There's a bunch of variables here to tweak, and that's half the fun of reworking a cube. Again, perhaps this is more of a development issue than a design issue. But I think that with "fun" being the overreaching goal here, as opposed to just efficiency or win rate, this discussion's still partially within the realm of design.

[Jason Waddell]

So the original idea was to view the Gravecrawlers as kind of a pesky threat. You deal with them, they come back. They put something like Blood Artist on the table and now you either take damage from the creature or take damage from blocking it to death. Your life total is slowly ticking. Death by a thousand cuts. You've stabilized on board but your life is still slowly draining out. Gotta race to get through the last damage.

Unlike other aggro decks that can just disappear to a board wipe, this one just keeps plugging away. As the aggro player you're also trying to balance zombies on board versus zombies on hand. You can get board wiped, drop a zombie, rebuild. The combos like Goblin Bombardment will be a nice addition, but the key is to make red decks also want these cards (to some degree) without black in the mix, I think. That's where cards like Tuktuk and the unearth red creatures come in. And Threaten / Sarkhan Vol. Not just cards, there should be multiple viable decks that pursue the sacrifice theme. Then as a drafter you can mix and match between these, but you're going to have to push into more colors to do so. Sarkhan is great but pushes you into green. Diregraf captain is cool but pushes you into blue. Ranger of Eos / Lingering Souls are awesome in these decks but want white. This is where we map things out in the "design" phase. 

So my main concern is having another deck that wants sacrifice effects but doesn't require Gravecrawlers. This is the layering process. I'm getting there with the Sarkhan / Threaten / Tuktuk ideas, but this is where I need the most help right not. If it's just cards Zombie decks can splash for I don't think that's as good of a dynamic. I want multiple people fighting for the Goblin Bombardment effects if I am going to push a high density of them. Otherwise I have to keep the scale small. 

[Eric Chan]

Gotcha!

Reveillark is the first creature that comes to mind that I often want dead. Viridian Emissary is another guy I wish would just die sometimes. Eldrazi spawn are great sac fodder, though you already run a couple spawn generators. Midnight Haunting is something I've been surprisingly happy with for aggro in general, and makes some disposable bodies. Raise the Alarm is kinda the poor man's version. Kuldotha Rebirth was a thing at one point, though I don't know how many worthless artifacts you lying around. Khalni Garden is cute, but really low in power level, even for your utility land pile. And..  Empty the Warrens! Huh? Huh?

Phew. Geez, this brewing thing that comes so naturally to you guys is hard.

[Jason Waddell]

Naturally? You have no idea how much time I spend fiddling with Gatherer search queries. 

[Calvin Chan]

Exactly Jason!  I can't even measure how much time I've spent adjusting search queries, or just digging through entire sets, to find a 99th synergistic gem for commander. 
It's convenient that many of those synergies and themes can also be implemented into cube.

[Eric Chan]

What? You mean you guys are just doing the same thing as lowly grunts like me..? I actually assumed you all had eidetic memories. No, serious.

More off the deep end: Murder Investigation, Grave Pact

[Jason Waddell]

I looked at Grave Pact for a while. Two issues: I want to be moving away from such color intensive black spells, and this would be pretty similar to the attrition call (I think). 

One thing that makes limited environments special is that all sorts of annoying spells that could never make it in constructed can be annoying as all hell in an environment where:

a) there are only 12 counterspells for 8 people

b) combat damage is the only real win condition

Part of the balance here is that many of our ways to abuse Gravecrawler stuff are either on vulnerable creatures (Carrion Feeder), or in another color (Goblin Bombardment). The effect there is that if somebody does set up a machine gun, they are constrained by the amount of black mana they have. Also, they always need Zombies on board, so the loops can generally be broken up by instant speed creature removal. 

I'm not trying to poopoo all over your suggestion, just talking out loud here. It's just if we're going to make an effect abundant (small creature recursion, sacrifice effects) we have to try to do that in the most fun way possible. I know some people are fan of griefer decks, but we need to be careful about how easy these things are to set up and what the reward is. From playtesting, recurring to make a large Carrion Feeder or to shoot off damage from Goblin Bombardment felt fair for the set-up, but making it so they can never stick a creature or permanent with something like Smokestack or Grave Pact felt too easy. 

Repetitive stuff people can't do anything about needs to be carefully considered (see Pack Rat, Invisible Stalker). 

As always, feel free to object or play the devil's advocate. I'm still trying to figure this out. 

[Eric Chan]

No, I'm totally on board. Grave Pact actually struck me as really similar to Attrition, only harder to cast. And global enchantments tend to be just about the most annoying permanent type in cube. Just throwing stuff at the wall.

The other nice effect on gameplay that I've noticed about sacrifice outlets, both in cube and elsewhere, is that they protect your creatures from gross misuse by your opponent. Mind Control my Serra Angel? No, sir, my Vampire Aristocrat is hungry. Lightning Helix my Delver? No life gain for you. Olivia pinging my Gravecrawler? She can certainly try, but she won't grow. And so on. It's a neat safety valve for the overpowered targeted removal effects.

[Jason Waddell]

Not to mention alpha striking into a lifegainer. 

[Jason Waddell]

So let's recap and map out where we are. 

Black - Primary holder of the Zombie Theme

1-2 Carrion Feeder

3-4 Gravecrawler

1-2 Bloodghast

Entomb

Unearth

Cabal Therapy

Rotting Rats (triple duty: zombie, discards crawlers/ghasts, unearths to get Gravecrawler chains going)

Wretched Anurid

Fleshbag Marauder

Boneshredder instead of Gatekeeper

Geralf's Messenger

Disciple of Bolas

Mikaeus, the Unhallowed

?Blood Artist

?Marsh Flitter

?Butcher Ghoul

[Attrition]

[Braids]

[Grave Pact]

Red: 

Supplements Sacrifice Theme

1-2 Goblin Bombardment

Greater Gargadon

Falkenrath Aristocrat

Fire Imp (pod)

Hellspark Elemental

Hell's Thunder

Keldon Marauders

Chandra's Phoenix

Tuktuk, the Explorer

Mogg War Marshals

Threaten

Pillar of Flame

Red Sun's Zenith

Squee, Goblin Nabob

?Pyreheart Wolf

RG: 

Sarkhan Vol

?Ancient Grudge

Green:

3-4 Birthing Pod

More destroy Enchant/Artifact Bullets

Vorapede

Strangleroot Geist

Thragtusk

Lotleth Troll

Wall of Roots

Mana Elves for Pod

Scavenging Ooze (Graveyard hate)

Vengevine (great with Entomb + Gravecrawlers)

Deadbridge Goliath (likes to die)

Avenger of Zendikar

?Putrid Leech

?Safehold Elite

?Young Wolf

?Protean Hulk

Blue: 

Gitaxian Probe

Fatestitcher (all-star)

Diregraph Captain

Pestermite

Vedalken Shackles

Dissipate

Syncopate

?Stitched Drake

?Grimgrin

?Another Brainstorm

?Tezzeret, the Seeker (pod)

UW:

Detention Sphere

White:

Tidehollow Sculler

Ranger of Eos

Lingering Souls

Condemn

Cataclysmn

Terminus

?Stillmoon Cavalier (never liked this card)

Colorless:

Perilous Myr

Relic of Progenitus

?Voltaic Key

?Culling Dais

?Helm of Possession

?Eldrazi Monument

From a top level view, how does it look? Would non-black red decks want to play into the sacrifice theme, or do they need more? Red tokens? 

[Jason Waddell]

Furnace Celebration or Jinxed Idol?

[Calvin Chan]

I think there's enough there to play a nonblack deck with a sacrifice subtheme.  If you go for more red tokens (presumably goblins), siege-gang commander is a good one.
I'm not a fan of stillmoon cavalier, generally protection is not a very interactive ability, and having protection from two colours i very swingy being either useless or amazing against other decks.
Voltaic key is an interesting one.  Plays well with pod, but the pod deck also wants creatures over spells.  There are also some other neat tricks with your other artifacts.
I've never been impressed with culling dias.  I find you get value from the card too slowly, though the effect is fine.
I would definitely go with jinxed idol. It's such an interactive card, and sets up interesting decisions even though the card is very simple.

[Dom Harvey]

idk how I forgot about Pattern of Rebirth and Puppeteer Clique (!!) until now, but they should be locks imo. Clique in particular leads to some disgusting blowouts (e.g. you have a 1/1 Carrion Feeder in play. Play Clique, returning your opponent's Zealous Conscripts taking their best guy. Sac Conscripts, then sac Clique and get it back, taking their next best guy. Attack with your 3/3 Clique, Conscripts, and their two guys. Sac Conscripts and the stolen creatures, leaving you with a 6/6 Feeder, a 2/1 Clique, and two of their guys dead. Substitute Conscripts for Mulldrifter, or Thragtusk, or Restoration Angel, or a Titan (!), or Wolfir Silverheart, or... O_O)  

[Jason Waddell]

Puppeteer Clique... I like it. I thought I had it in a binder somewhere, but I guess I'll have to wait to test it. 

I added Mentor of the Meek and Stonecloaker to the test pile. Mentor is potentially insane with Bloodghast/Gravecrawler, in a much more interactive way than Skullclamp, for example. 

Stonecloaker gives decks another way to disrupt the recursion and force the zombie decks to play "above ground". 

Added Stitched Drake for Serendib Efreet. Might reverse it later, but Blue is strong as is and this gives another tie between Blue and Black. 

Jinxed Idol is in 

Wickerbough for Bramblecrush

 Pestermite for Delver #2

 Stupor for Mind Twist

 Day of Judgment #2 for Balance

Avalanche Riders for Goblin Ruinblasters (pod)

Bone Shredder for Gatekeeper of Malakir

Perilous Myr for Experiment One

Additional changes will have to wait til my next order comes in. 

[Calvin Chan]

Puppeteer clique is one of my favorites, though it's always been underwhelming for me in Eric's cube.  It just feels bad when you only steal a random 2/2 from aggressive decks, though it improves a lot with sac outlets.
Another important thing that might come up is against the gravecrawler deck, you can take their gravecrawler or bloodghast (in response to the landfall trigger :P)  and let it get exiled at the end of turn.

[Eric Chan]

Yeah, I've had it in for a while, and while fine, Puppeteer Clique has never been too exciting. It's value fluctuates a lot depending on the match-up. Against a creature-light control deck, their graveyard full of instants and sorceries often just sits there, taunting you. But I'd say test it out for yourself and see if it fares any better.

Incidental graveyard hate is always good when you're introducing potentially annoying effects. I like the idea of Stonecloaker, and hopefully it pans out. Reminds me a little bit of Aven Mindcensor, though the bounce clause is a bit harder to make work for you. Is Necrogenesis too narrow? Withered Wretch and Thraben Heretic are okay, but as just vanilla bears they're a bit weak.

[Jason Waddell]

Necrogenesis... I think I would prefer a more flexible mono-colored option. Or hybrid. I'd much rather have a second Deathrite Shaman around, especially with my 20 fetchlands. 

Speaking of which... Leonin Arbiter? Is it too awkward with Steppe Lynx as the main white aggro beater? Decent anti-pod tech too. I think it's a little strange though. 

[Dom Harvey]

I really like these changes. 

Most Pod decks can function decently without Pod, so Arbiter is a situational delaying tactic at best; and as you said, there's a tension between pushing landfall and playing Arbiter. If you're having to stagger your fetchland activations to get around your own Arbiter, your opponent will have more time to get the mana needed to pay for it.

Maybe I'm just sick of playing against it in Modern/Legacy, but I find Deathrite Shaman an unfun and oppressive card. It's not something I would want to double up on.

[Jason Waddell]

Thoughts on Furnace Celebration? I now have a ton of sacrifice outlets. Possibly too slow, possibly infinitely fun. Not sure. 

[FlowerSunRain]

I loved Furance Celebration in Scars Limited.  In one draft I got three copies and it was hilarious.   Furnace Celebration was one of the few "Red Uncommon you need to build around" that actually worked.  I would definitely give it a run.

On Thursday, March 14, 2013 5:51:33 AM UTC-4, Jason Waddell wrote:

I've got a shipment of 3 Gravecrawlers coming in the mail, and am trying to transform my black section to give it a new identity. The idea is that you can still use them as your traditional 2-power one-mana beaters, but do so much more with them. 

At the same time, I am considering dropping reanimator entirely. Here are my current design plans: 

Out: 

Dread Return

Unburial Rites

Diabolic Servitude

Smokestack

Carnophage 

Diregraf Ghoul 

Sarcomancy

Vampire Lacerator

Pack Rat

Nezumi Graverobber

Seal of Fire

Devil's Play

Gore-House Chainwalker

Mikaeus, the Lunarch

Rofellos

Supreme Verdict

Sorin LOA

Survival of the Fittest

Griselbrand

In: 

Dryad Militant

Unearth

Entomb

Rotting Rats

Gravecrawler x3

Bloodghast

Cabal Therapy

Gitaxian Probe

Pillar of Flame

Red Sun's Zenith

Goblin Bombardment

Detention Sphere

Day of Judgment

Tidehollow Sculler

Greater Gargadon

Ranger of Eos

2x Birthing Pod 

Disciple of Bolas

Mikaeus, the Unhallowed

Wall of Roots

Terminus?

This is a pretty sweeping transformation, so I'll go over it a bit point by point. Entomb is a really interesting card that has a lot of applications (Gravecrawler, Bloodghast, Vengevine, Lingering Souls, Ancient Grudge, Squee, etc.), and is not completely lame when you take out Reanimator. 

I am also going to be testing out Cabal Therapy, as we will have a critical mass of creatures that can be sacrificed at little cost. Additionally, adding in some cards (Gitaxian Probe, Tidehollow Sculler) that are very interactive and interesting in their own rights, but also combine well with Gravecrawler. We expand on the sacrifice theme by using Disciple of Bolas, which I personally feel will be more interesting in application that something more explicit like Graveborn Muse. 

Rotting Rats combines well with these other cards, and it also allows you to overcommit to the board. You can put all your zombies on the table, then use the unearth ability to get the chain going again after a wrath.

With any change, we also want ways to interact with it. In comes Pillar of Flame, Red Sun's Zenith, Terminus and Detention Sphere. This brings the interesting element of having cards that are specifically good in some matchups, but certainly not bad elsewhere. I think this adds a lot to the control drafting, playing and sideboarding experience. One of my favorite limited aspects is when you pick up a card like Pillar of Flame to shore up your matchup against an archetype. Even without it though, there are tons of ways to interact with a zombie subtheme, unlike the Reanimator archetype. 

Next we have some Gravecrawler machine guns. Goblin Bombardment, Carrion Feeder, Greater Gargadon. I thought about Blood Artist, but it feels like that card will be really underwhelming. 

Lastly, Griselbrand out, Mikaeus the Unhallowed in. I'm not sure about this one, but I think it could be sweet. 

I feel pretty good about these changes, but testing will show what works and what doesn't. Are there some pieces of tech I'm missing?

[Jason Waddell]

It just hit me: we need more Eldrazi spawn tokens in here. 

In:

Nest Invader
Kozilek's Preditor
motherfucking Pawn of Ulamog

These have such great interactions with all the sacrifice stuff (especially Furnace Celebration)

Color me excited. 

[FlowerSunRain]

Growth Spasm is legit ramp if you are taking this route.  You're running 2 cultivates, at least one of them could easily make the switch.

[Jason Waddell]

Yeah, I am running one Growth Spasm already, a second couldn't hurt. 

[FlowerSunRain]

I totally checked your list to see if you were running cultivate/kodama's reach and I didn't even notice the growth spasm.  Very noobish of me.

[Jason Waddell]

Well, the cultivate is going to get cut either way I think. Either Harrow or Spasm #2 is making an entrance. 

[Dom Harvey]

Harrow is a no-brainer if you're pushing landfall. I don't know about Growth Spasm though: how likely am I to want a green ramp spell in my sac subtheme, probably base-black, deck? I'd rather have the card that's better in the decks that want it most.

I love Hannes' (?) Apprentice Necromancer suggestion as well. If your worry about reanimation is that cheap reanimation spells are too powerful, how about Victimize, which is conditional in a way that ties into this subtheme?

[Jason Waddell]

Perhaps a second Growth Spasm isn't needed. I really like the first one though, independent of any sacrifice subtheme. Eldrazi Spawn tokens are probably my favorite resource management mechanic ever printed. It's very clean and adds a lot to gameplay. Harrow was out because... well, it's one of those cards I kind of forgot existed for a while, and need to track down in one of my boxes. It's been on my mind for a while and I've just never marked it in my cube file. 

Apprentice Necromancer is a cute card, but I'm not really focused on reanimation at the moment. The more I push into this stuff, the more I see why Wizards only pushes so many themes in a given set. It's more important to execute a few things well than a lot of things in a mediocre way. Apprentice Necromancer is just not exactly what I'm looking for at the moment, but it's a good one to have in mind. 

For reference, I had for a while a Reanimator implementation I was relatively happy with: http://www.channelfireball.com/home/the-cube-fallacy/

I mentioned this tangentially before, but I view the future of (at least my) cube design as something with an element of seasonality. I pick some web of layered mechanics and themes, work on the execution of connecting them and pull it all together. What I imagine will happen is that at one point I'll call a given set design "done" and retire it (and actually save that list somewhere). Then I'll get to work on another set of designs. 

There's a lot of space to work in. I mean, this whole Birthing Pod/Threaten Effects/Sacrifice/Eldrazi Token/Zombies layered junk started with multiple copies of Gravecrawler and branched out from there. For a lot of it to work though, I've had to take out slots that were dedicated to Reanimator. I don't really have a great argument against including Victimize at the moment, as it is a very good suggestion. For some reason I'm just not "feeling it", if you will. I'm especially wary of reanimation at the moment as I am including Entomb, which I would never include in a draft environment that included reanimation. 

I should probably cut Recurring Nightmare. I've been on the fence about it, and it actually hasn't produced bad games in a long time. Thoughts anyone?

[Eric Chan]

I'll vouch for Kozilek's Predator and Pawn of Ulamog. Predator was something I threw in on a whim in the first iteration of our cube, and it's surprised me with how versatile it is. The bodies are useful in aggro, carrying swords and equipment; in ramp, to block and make mana; and in tokens, to power up things like Eldrazi Monument. Pawn is a card I've only recently included, but the one time I had it, it made a ton of spawn with just a single Gravecrawler doing the heavy lifting.

Like you said, the spawn are a really flexible, skill testing mechanic. If you support tokens as a subtheme, the spawn give you more reason to include global pump effects in green, like Overrun (or any of the variants, like Overwhelming Stampede).

[Jason Waddell]

Yeah, funny you mention it, I was looking for a spot for Overrun yesterday. The best I can find (at the moment) is taking out Lodestone Golem, which is a card I love on paper but really hasn't been contributing anything significant. 

Either that or Plow Under. Is Plow Under a fun card?  Well, maybe, but it's one of the major incentives to play ramp. I also think the card breaks people's spirits. In one of my early cube drafts, I went
Turn 3: Plow Under
Turn 4: Garruk + Regrowth for Plow Under
Turn 5: Plow Under (opponent scoops)

I think if I had "still had all these" 'd him by revealing an Eternal Witness after the game that he would have had to go home to take a cold shower. 

[Eric Chan]

I..  kind of like Plow Under. But I'm maybe not the best person to ask, cause I love me a land destruction spell. You're talking to someone with both Stone Rain and Mwonvuli Acid-Moss in their cube.

I've found that Eldrazi Monument is a lot more powerful than Overrun, even in green decks. It reads worse on paper, to be sure, and everyone's who tried it - including me - didn't expect much. And then you play it, and you discover your whole team is indestrucible and unblockable, and that you don't have to attack with all your troops. And then you realize you can't lose.

[Jason Waddell]

Yeah, I thought about it while drafting and Plow Under is pretty necessary as an incentive card. Not sure about Overrun.

Eldrazi Monument is another one of those cards I had stopped thinking about. In the early part of my cube it was never worth the ($) cost, and then I just forgot. It would have been pretty good today. 

EDIT: Jinxed Idol was showing some pretty great potential though. 

[Rob Dennis]

So I saw Stronghold Assassin discussed briefly on twitter yesterday. Seems like it would gain a lot from multiple Gravecrawlers in cube (I just realized there's around 3 threads discussing breaking singleton, and I laughed at the parallels between number of threads and duplicate cards in cube)

On Sunday, March 24, 2013 3:01:48 PM UTC-4, Jason Waddell wrote:

Yeah, I thought about it while drafting and Plow Under is pretty necessary as an incentive card. Not sure about Overrun.

Eldrazi Monument is another one of those cards I had stopped thinking about. In the early part of my cube it was never worth the ($) cost, and then I just forgot. It would have been pretty good today. 

EDIT: Jinxed Idol was showing some pretty great potential though. 

[Jason Waddell]

It's a Zombie but only on Gatherer Errata? Ugh....

[Rob Dennis]

play'em as they are :p. I wish that I could Restoration Angel Karmic Guide, but you don't hear me complaining.

[Jason Waddell]

I just don't have a good way of communicating the creature type to players short of writing on the card. Anybody have easy recommendations for showing creature type errata?

[Rob Dennis]

• For the cards I've proxied via printer I write it on the card
• when I've had the time I used an image editor (e.g. GIMP) to put it on the image I was about to print (most of my rebel errata was like this)
• when I didn't have the time, I wrote it in pen on the card
  
• For real cards, I put a small sticky label on the type line with "Zombie" on the inner sleeve (I double sleeve)

I know what you meant when you said "ugh" but I was trying to be funny

[Jason Waddell]

I figured you knew, but you can never be too sure. I've spent too much time on other forums where every word can be an accidental landmine. :P Indeed, you were funny. 

I'll probably just mutilate the actual card with a pen. How much can a Stronghold Assassin be worth anyways?

[Jason Waddell]

Another TappedOut mock draft. A few more cuts to be made here. How would you guys build this deck?

[Dom Harvey]

I'd cut Pillage, Duress, Therapy and either Jinxed Idol/Unearth, and shift the manabase more towards black.

[Chris Taylor (The Bakaist)]

Did anyone try loaming shaman or primal command? They seem like nice incidental ways to help interact with the gravecrawler deck, on top of scavenging ooze.

[Jason Waddell]

I have not tried those yet, but they seem like solid suggestions. Loaming Shaman may be a little narrow, but Primal Command could slot in for Plow Under without too much trouble. 

[Christopher Morris-Lent]

primal command is really good

i also like jund charm

someone was suggesting noxious revival somewhere else? that's a pretty strong card

[Liam Williams]

Seems like all the haunt cards would be sick with so much saccing going on, getting both activations should be fairly easy. Seize the Soul seems like the big one

Golgari Thug is a standout but other Dredge cards seem cool. I would give darkblast a try.

Lumberknot seems like a sweet card with sac effects

The Zuberas are cool but require far too much commitment to make work

Shambling Swarm is a swell guy

Demonlord of Ashmouth is a 5/4 with flying for 4 that sacs a creature when it etb

Unrelated but the Kamigawa soulshift spirits and birthing pod seem like a spicy combo, and we have two decent enough undying spirits in stormbound geist and strangleroot geist

[Jason Waddell]

Hi Liam! Thanks for the suggestions, definitely some good ones to try there (Demonlord in particular seems really interesting). 

In the meantime, we've moved our forums to another site. Perhaps you could post in this thread:
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/jason-waddells-cube.14/

Thanks again!