ultimate market currency: better than loom issue and better than ripple route
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Marcell
Jun 4, 2008, 2:21:18 PM6/4/08
to Ripple users
loom.cc allows one to issue currency.
ripple allows routing, currently between trust rekationships.
We must make it possible for people and businesses to issue their own
currency in an auditable way. Ripple does not allow issuing currency,
but a highly trusted party effectively issues money, even his friends
don't know the full amount (he owes). You might trust your friend 4000
EUR, but you likely won't, if you know he owes a total 164000 EUR.
Loom.cc does not allow verification of issued amount. Also, loom.cc
requires one to trust BOTH the currency issuer AND the server operator
(which is unnecessary).
The solution for auditing the issued amount could be: the issuer signs
the hash( accountID ) for each (numbered) digitalcoin he issued.
Perhaps hash( concat( accountID, salt)) to allow verification, while
the identification of the different coins stuffed to same account
becomes impossible.
accountID is the Swissbank style huge number (as in loom.cc) makes
ownership possible (or transfer to other accountID at will).
billstclair's note: DigiCash did a pretty good job of that. The only
problem is that all trades need to go through the issuer.
The issuer can use a distributed system to do the transactions (hash-
signing). More freedom than being tied to a loom server.
To make the currencies "convertible", we need to find paths to convert
between currencies (according to dynamic market rules), kindof how
ripple finds path. Obviously, for private currencies we must implement
margin, that is different rate for the 2 directions, which can be
specified by each "agent".
How can this be distributed ?
Each (sub)market can publish an NxN matrix of currency conversion
rates (for the best path from curA .. curB).
The existence of highly-respected currencies like EUR or gold helps a
lot, because an Nx2 vector can be published, like www.xe.com/ict The
Nx2 is because of conversion of each currency TO and FROM EUR.
Now routing between the submarkets becomes simple. Note that for
greater amount the optimum exchangerate might not be possible (as
edges in the graph "saturate").
What we get by marrying loom and ripple is the ultimate money market
that has the potential to attract businesses like mine (including
conversion to and from fraud currencies) scale globally, and change
the world.
Note that international transfers is a huge perspective, currently
with highly fraudulent fees and latency.
I will detail a tricky digital coin later that is attractive to
businesses and their partners (while it will be important for
marketing, for technical implementation POV it's "just another type of
currency" beyond the scope of this message).
Marcell
ripple allows routing, currently between trust rekationships.
We must make it possible for people and businesses to issue their own
currency in an auditable way. Ripple does not allow issuing currency,
but a highly trusted party effectively issues money, even his friends
don't know the full amount (he owes). You might trust your friend 4000
EUR, but you likely won't, if you know he owes a total 164000 EUR.
Loom.cc does not allow verification of issued amount. Also, loom.cc
requires one to trust BOTH the currency issuer AND the server operator
(which is unnecessary).
The solution for auditing the issued amount could be: the issuer signs
the hash( accountID ) for each (numbered) digitalcoin he issued.
Perhaps hash( concat( accountID, salt)) to allow verification, while
the identification of the different coins stuffed to same account
becomes impossible.
accountID is the Swissbank style huge number (as in loom.cc) makes
ownership possible (or transfer to other accountID at will).
billstclair's note: DigiCash did a pretty good job of that. The only
problem is that all trades need to go through the issuer.
The issuer can use a distributed system to do the transactions (hash-
signing). More freedom than being tied to a loom server.
To make the currencies "convertible", we need to find paths to convert
between currencies (according to dynamic market rules), kindof how
ripple finds path. Obviously, for private currencies we must implement
margin, that is different rate for the 2 directions, which can be
specified by each "agent".
How can this be distributed ?
Each (sub)market can publish an NxN matrix of currency conversion
rates (for the best path from curA .. curB).
The existence of highly-respected currencies like EUR or gold helps a
lot, because an Nx2 vector can be published, like www.xe.com/ict The
Nx2 is because of conversion of each currency TO and FROM EUR.
Now routing between the submarkets becomes simple. Note that for
greater amount the optimum exchangerate might not be possible (as
edges in the graph "saturate").
What we get by marrying loom and ripple is the ultimate money market
that has the potential to attract businesses like mine (including
conversion to and from fraud currencies) scale globally, and change
the world.
Note that international transfers is a huge perspective, currently
with highly fraudulent fees and latency.
I will detail a tricky digital coin later that is attractive to
businesses and their partners (while it will be important for
marketing, for technical implementation POV it's "just another type of
currency" beyond the scope of this message).
Marcell
James Anastasios
Jun 4, 2008, 10:28:43 PM6/4/08
to rippl...@googlegroups.com
This looked like spam. Almost deleted it!
I went to the website but didn't see much of interest.
Ryan Fugger
Jun 5, 2008, 4:19:59 PM6/5/08
to rippl...@googlegroups.com
Definitely not spam -- some good ideas here. If digital coins ever
took off, Ripple would be a natural way to have them all be
interconvertible at transaction time. And auditing the total amount
of debt for your connected partners would be nice. The problem is
that people can create multiple Ripple identities, so doing this
auditing in Ripple doesn't solve much.
took off, Ripple would be a natural way to have them all be
interconvertible at transaction time. And auditing the total amount
of debt for your connected partners would be nice. The problem is
that people can create multiple Ripple identities, so doing this
auditing in Ripple doesn't solve much.
Ryan
Thomas Hartman
Jun 5, 2008, 7:57:57 PM6/5/08
to rippl...@googlegroups.com
It would if ripple (or ripple technology providers) made some effort
to map ripple accounts to human beings though, right?
to map ripple accounts to human beings though, right?
Since ripple allows "nonhuman" account types (banks, corps, currencies
etc) this wouldn't be a perfect solution. But it could be a start.
Ryan Fugger
Jun 5, 2008, 11:05:10 PM6/5/08
to rippl...@googlegroups.com
One design goal of Ripple is to be decentralized, meaning human beings
could sign up with multiple providers and there would be no way to
track it, so it's not that corporations are permitted. Actually,
corporations are probably a lot more accountable in this sense than
people, although Enron-style fraud is always a possibility.
could sign up with multiple providers and there would be no way to
track it, so it's not that corporations are permitted. Actually,
corporations are probably a lot more accountable in this sense than
people, although Enron-style fraud is always a possibility.
Ryan
Marcell
Jun 6, 2008, 12:18:24 PM6/6/08
to Ripple users
I got several feedback and questions in private, some excerpt:
[Q about my other related papers]
surprisingly few written words (on this subject) by me. I've been
studying the moneypulation and money problems for quite a while,
only a few EN words (on my otherwise Hungarian site): http://www.falura.hu/en/
note: I have no illusions about political/parliamental solutions.
My answer on a loom.cc developer's mail:
I think we should stir public discussion on this, involving
ripplepay.com and loom.cc and other openmoney, communitycurrency and
reinventingmoney developers.
Actually, I'm convinced we need to use some wiki, because on a forum
we cannot polish ideas and system specs
in short, the whole system boils down to 3 parts:
* 1) Digital Coin http://anchk.250free.com/ Focus on the base
concept, the redemption curve. It is marvellous (+lotsof garnish not
necessary to understand the concept, some examples are actually
incorrect)
* 2) auditable currency issuance and accounting (allowing anonymous
"swissbank" accounts)
* 3) "market providers" that consider the pricelists of market
recipients and find best path to make currencies "convertible"
At this time (I've spent quite some time thinking about this) I think
1)-2) are quite easy and scale easily.
The hard part is 3), but it's getting clear to me how it will work and
which teams are close to design and implement it.
Also, how it will spread, first by utilizing the high fees and latency
of international transfer of fraud-money.
> Correction: loom.cc *does* allow verification of issued amount.
> For example, here is the current issuance of an asset type:
> https://loom.cc/?function=grid&action=look&type=26ef701a952fe3d641a69bf859d
>b71c2&hash=50025bea374c44337c6ef28d8d9a44be1af386f4e571981a1521e88188d72499
> You can see the current value of -2177243377, which is the current
> liability of the issuer in integer units (217.7243376 grams of gold)
> https://loom.cc/?function=help&topic=grid_tutorial
By auditing the money supply, I mean that "for each token someone can
use to pay with, anyone can verify it is part of the known amount of
issued money".
The loom.cc "look" operation is not real auditing. It's trivial to use
a server that outputs -2177243377 for a similar query (== fractional
reserve banking).
As I said, 3) seems to be more work than 2). (That's why much hope is
in ripple developers who are likely to play an important role here)
Also, because of complexity, it seems to me we need do 3) in Java
first. When the APIs and reference implementation exists, it is
possible to implement in other (more "host-friendly") language(s) such
as C++ or even PHP / Perl if we want to make it possible for a larger
part of the opensource community to play with the concept.
Marcell
----
I just talked to a lawyer. He confirmed that it's legal for someone to
sign a contract which explicitely states that he can pass on his right
(eg. to access a service) to someone else based on electronic codes.
So good contract text (==signed digital coin) is just a matter of
wording. The enduser's agent (purse software) will need to implement
some considerations (when preparing transactions). Besides
individually determined preferences, the purse considers the
redemption curve and market value of currencies to decide which one to
trade.
[Q about my other related papers]
surprisingly few written words (on this subject) by me. I've been
studying the moneypulation and money problems for quite a while,
only a few EN words (on my otherwise Hungarian site): http://www.falura.hu/en/
note: I have no illusions about political/parliamental solutions.
My answer on a loom.cc developer's mail:
I think we should stir public discussion on this, involving
ripplepay.com and loom.cc and other openmoney, communitycurrency and
reinventingmoney developers.
Actually, I'm convinced we need to use some wiki, because on a forum
we cannot polish ideas and system specs
in short, the whole system boils down to 3 parts:
* 1) Digital Coin http://anchk.250free.com/ Focus on the base
concept, the redemption curve. It is marvellous (+lotsof garnish not
necessary to understand the concept, some examples are actually
incorrect)
* 2) auditable currency issuance and accounting (allowing anonymous
"swissbank" accounts)
* 3) "market providers" that consider the pricelists of market
recipients and find best path to make currencies "convertible"
At this time (I've spent quite some time thinking about this) I think
1)-2) are quite easy and scale easily.
The hard part is 3), but it's getting clear to me how it will work and
which teams are close to design and implement it.
Also, how it will spread, first by utilizing the high fees and latency
of international transfer of fraud-money.
> Correction: loom.cc *does* allow verification of issued amount.
> For example, here is the current issuance of an asset type:
> https://loom.cc/?function=grid&action=look&type=26ef701a952fe3d641a69bf859d
>b71c2&hash=50025bea374c44337c6ef28d8d9a44be1af386f4e571981a1521e88188d72499
> You can see the current value of -2177243377, which is the current
> liability of the issuer in integer units (217.7243376 grams of gold)
> https://loom.cc/?function=help&topic=grid_tutorial
By auditing the money supply, I mean that "for each token someone can
use to pay with, anyone can verify it is part of the known amount of
issued money".
The loom.cc "look" operation is not real auditing. It's trivial to use
a server that outputs -2177243377 for a similar query (== fractional
reserve banking).
As I said, 3) seems to be more work than 2). (That's why much hope is
in ripple developers who are likely to play an important role here)
Also, because of complexity, it seems to me we need do 3) in Java
first. When the APIs and reference implementation exists, it is
possible to implement in other (more "host-friendly") language(s) such
as C++ or even PHP / Perl if we want to make it possible for a larger
part of the opensource community to play with the concept.
Marcell
----
I just talked to a lawyer. He confirmed that it's legal for someone to
sign a contract which explicitely states that he can pass on his right
(eg. to access a service) to someone else based on electronic codes.
So good contract text (==signed digital coin) is just a matter of
wording. The enduser's agent (purse software) will need to implement
some considerations (when preparing transactions). Besides
individually determined preferences, the purse considers the
redemption curve and market value of currencies to decide which one to
trade.
abb
Jun 7, 2008, 7:02:29 AM6/7/08
to Ripple users
Never do business with friends:
1. some will abuse the friend relationship for profit
2. money can tear apart the friendship leaving one person stuck with
the bill
No thanks, I don't want to ask my friends to borrow $40k to buy a car
(or $200k to buy a house). I don't want to leverage my social
relationships so I can get stuff.
The Ripple idea is clever, but it places huge leverage on the social
relationship. Yes, you can create collective entities to blunt that
leverage, but you'd create a society of people who are expert at
manipulating themselves into Ripple, while the honest ones get stuck
with the bill. Ripple would punish honest people and reward con-men.
If we used Ripple as money, it would tear society apart.
Some in this thread alluded to the solution: competing mediums of
exchange. They must be freely interchangeable. That solves the
problem of money. The problem with current systems is the
monopolistic control over it. Allow the USD and Euro to compete
directly against silver and gold (and Ripple too, if you'd like).
If Visa/Mastercard would accept gold and silver for payment, that
would send us light years ahead. We could instantly opt out of the
current system.
1. some will abuse the friend relationship for profit
2. money can tear apart the friendship leaving one person stuck with
the bill
No thanks, I don't want to ask my friends to borrow $40k to buy a car
(or $200k to buy a house). I don't want to leverage my social
relationships so I can get stuff.
The Ripple idea is clever, but it places huge leverage on the social
relationship. Yes, you can create collective entities to blunt that
leverage, but you'd create a society of people who are expert at
manipulating themselves into Ripple, while the honest ones get stuck
with the bill. Ripple would punish honest people and reward con-men.
If we used Ripple as money, it would tear society apart.
Some in this thread alluded to the solution: competing mediums of
exchange. They must be freely interchangeable. That solves the
problem of money. The problem with current systems is the
monopolistic control over it. Allow the USD and Euro to compete
directly against silver and gold (and Ripple too, if you'd like).
If Visa/Mastercard would accept gold and silver for payment, that
would send us light years ahead. We could instantly opt out of the
current system.
abb
Jun 7, 2008, 7:03:48 AM6/7/08
to Ripple users
I had meant to put this in it's own message:
abb
Jun 7, 2008, 7:20:18 AM6/7/08
to Ripple users
I'd like to pay my MasterCard bill with GoldMoney.
I'd like a GoldMoney ATM card that gives me the local currency.
I'd like a bill paying service that pays my mortgage in the currency
of the bank's choice while I pay in the currency of my choice.
Money problem solved. May the best currency win. (probably
electronic gold or silver)
I'd like a GoldMoney ATM card that gives me the local currency.
I'd like a bill paying service that pays my mortgage in the currency
of the bank's choice while I pay in the currency of my choice.
Money problem solved. May the best currency win. (probably
electronic gold or silver)
Marcell
Jun 7, 2008, 9:12:39 PM6/7/08
to Ripple users
I doubt that people here can be deceived by the centuries old "gold
limits the money supply" tale.
Especially nonsense to think that gold is necessary to limit the
amount of electronic tokens in existence.
If the system allows limiting the total amount of electronic tokens in
existence to N,
than why should N be tied to the amount of gold that has been dug up ?
Even if the aim could be achieved, we would be in a big trouble,
because for a limited money supply, lending at interest causes all
money to accumulate in chunks corrupting the money supply (=>the fall
of the Roman Empire).
http://www.falura.hu/en/
read from "THE SOLUTION" part.
limits the money supply" tale.
Especially nonsense to think that gold is necessary to limit the
amount of electronic tokens in existence.
If the system allows limiting the total amount of electronic tokens in
existence to N,
than why should N be tied to the amount of gold that has been dug up ?
Even if the aim could be achieved, we would be in a big trouble,
because for a limited money supply, lending at interest causes all
money to accumulate in chunks corrupting the money supply (=>the fall
of the Roman Empire).
http://www.falura.hu/en/
read from "THE SOLUTION" part.
Marcell
Jun 8, 2008, 6:19:08 AM6/8/08
to Ripple users
I've started to summarize concept, improvement proposals on
http://www.falura.hu/en/
Issuing currency is not a new thing. For success, a few improvements
are essential:
* new type of currency to make it appealing (see the contract
obligation redemption curve)
* public audit of the money supply, and accountibility of the issuer
and server (to make it resist defamation attack)
* automated market to make the currencies convertible
Not going to waste too much words on abb's gold. I think people here
are well aware of the fact that to limit the amount of electronic
tokens out there to certain N amount, gold does not help. History
shows that gold does not help, and it can simply be proven that it
cannot, even theoretically. (Even if there is a will to limit total
to N -which is questionable by itself-, and if public audit of the
whole worlds' gold and all the electronic tokens out there would be
possible at the same time, the gold is just unnecessary complication.
Auditing the worlds electronic tokens is needed anyway, and digging up
gold just to get a number N is anachronistic and stupid.
http://www.falura.hu/en/
Issuing currency is not a new thing. For success, a few improvements
are essential:
* new type of currency to make it appealing (see the contract
obligation redemption curve)
* public audit of the money supply, and accountibility of the issuer
and server (to make it resist defamation attack)
* automated market to make the currencies convertible
Not going to waste too much words on abb's gold. I think people here
are well aware of the fact that to limit the amount of electronic
tokens out there to certain N amount, gold does not help. History
shows that gold does not help, and it can simply be proven that it
cannot, even theoretically. (Even if there is a will to limit total
to N -which is questionable by itself-, and if public audit of the
whole worlds' gold and all the electronic tokens out there would be
possible at the same time, the gold is just unnecessary complication.
Auditing the worlds electronic tokens is needed anyway, and digging up
gold just to get a number N is anachronistic and stupid.
Mark Herpel
Jun 8, 2008, 9:05:29 AM6/8/08
to Ripple users
http://dgc.wetpaint.com/ THIS IS A PAYMENT WIKI FOR Ripple
and Loom or anything else you would like.
Ready to add content. I'll contact the Loom folks and some others for
content.
Martk
On Jun 6, 12:18 pm, Marcell <c...@x-dsl.hu> wrote:
> I got several feedback and questions in private, some excerpt:
>
> [Q about my other related papers]
> surprisingly few written words (on this subject) by me. I've been
> studying the moneypulation and money problems for quite a while,
> only a few EN words (on my otherwise Hungarian site):http://www.falura.hu/en/
> note: I have no illusions about political/parliamental solutions.
>
> My answer on a loom.cc developer's mail:
> I think we should stir public discussion on this, involving
> ripplepay.com and loom.cc and other openmoney, communitycurrency and
> reinventingmoney developers.
>
> Actually, I'm convinced we need to use some wiki, because on a forum
> we cannot polish ideas and system specs
>
> in short, the whole system boils down to 3 parts:
> * 1) Digital Coinhttp://anchk.250free.com/ Focus on the base
and Loom or anything else you would like.
Ready to add content. I'll contact the Loom folks and some others for
content.
Martk
On Jun 6, 12:18 pm, Marcell <c...@x-dsl.hu> wrote:
> I got several feedback and questions in private, some excerpt:
>
> [Q about my other related papers]
> surprisingly few written words (on this subject) by me. I've been
> studying the moneypulation and money problems for quite a while,
> only a few EN words (on my otherwise Hungarian site):http://www.falura.hu/en/
> note: I have no illusions about political/parliamental solutions.
>
> My answer on a loom.cc developer's mail:
> I think we should stir public discussion on this, involving
> ripplepay.com and loom.cc and other openmoney, communitycurrency and
> reinventingmoney developers.
>
> Actually, I'm convinced we need to use some wiki, because on a forum
> we cannot polish ideas and system specs
>
> in short, the whole system boils down to 3 parts:
> concept, the redemption curve. It is marvellous (+lotsof garnish not
> necessary to understand the concept, some examples are actually
> incorrect)
> * 2) auditable currency issuance and accounting (allowing anonymous
> "swissbank" accounts)
> * 3) "market providers" that consider the pricelists of market
> recipients and find best path to make currencies "convertible"
>
> At this time (I've spent quite some time thinking about this) I think
> 1)-2) are quite easy and scale easily.
> The hard part is 3), but it's getting clear to me how it will work and
> which teams are close to design and implement it.
> Also, how it will spread, first by utilizing the high fees and latency
> of international transfer of fraud-money.
>
> > Correction: loom.cc *does* allow verification of issued amount.
> > For example, here is the current issuance of an asset type:
> >https://loom.cc/?function=grid&action=look&type=26ef701a952fe3d641a69...
> necessary to understand the concept, some examples are actually
> incorrect)
> * 2) auditable currency issuance and accounting (allowing anonymous
> "swissbank" accounts)
> * 3) "market providers" that consider the pricelists of market
> recipients and find best path to make currencies "convertible"
>
> At this time (I've spent quite some time thinking about this) I think
> 1)-2) are quite easy and scale easily.
> The hard part is 3), but it's getting clear to me how it will work and
> which teams are close to design and implement it.
> Also, how it will spread, first by utilizing the high fees and latency
> of international transfer of fraud-money.
>
> > Correction: loom.cc *does* allow verification of issued amount.
> > For example, here is the current issuance of an asset type:
Thomas Hartman
Jun 8, 2008, 12:29:53 PM6/8/08
to rippl...@googlegroups.com
Please let's keep things civil on the ripple list.
It will make your pitch more convincing too.
abb
Jun 8, 2008, 3:36:49 PM6/8/08
to Ripple users
I understand your argument.
Historically gold has not worked because gold can be hoarded. This
leads to monopolistic control over the money supply. And allows banks
to lend the medium of exchange at interest. I agree, that has been a
problem historically.
Similarly, if Ripple were the world's currency, (even aside from my
argument that its design would tear society apart), it too would
eventually be corrupted. It is human nature to find a way to do so.
The solution is multiple, competing mediums of exchange. Each freely
exchangeable for another.
At the moment, electronic gold is an escape from the current system
and available right now. Give me a Mastercard debit card that deducts
from my GoldMoney account and I could opt out of FRNs TODAY. No need
to convince everyone that my way is best... and it works seamlessly
with today's system.
And when... NOT IF... GoldMoney is corrupted, I can switch to
another... SilverMoney or CopperMoney or any other competing store of
wealth.
Historically gold has not worked because gold can be hoarded. This
leads to monopolistic control over the money supply. And allows banks
to lend the medium of exchange at interest. I agree, that has been a
problem historically.
Similarly, if Ripple were the world's currency, (even aside from my
argument that its design would tear society apart), it too would
eventually be corrupted. It is human nature to find a way to do so.
The solution is multiple, competing mediums of exchange. Each freely
exchangeable for another.
At the moment, electronic gold is an escape from the current system
and available right now. Give me a Mastercard debit card that deducts
from my GoldMoney account and I could opt out of FRNs TODAY. No need
to convince everyone that my way is best... and it works seamlessly
with today's system.
And when... NOT IF... GoldMoney is corrupted, I can switch to
another... SilverMoney or CopperMoney or any other competing store of
wealth.
Marcell
Jun 8, 2008, 4:05:06 PM6/8/08
to Ripple users
> At the moment, electronic gold is an escape from the current system
electronic gold is no escape from the current system, just a deception
(the next in the row related to money created by private banks,
sometimes masqueraded as government issued, sometimes masqueraded as
gold-backed money)
Digital gold is planned to divert attention from a proper auditable
money supply and maintain the fraudulent money supply for a few more
decades.
Along the good-old gold-trick, media power with the banking
sponsorship/ownership tries to deceive monetary illiterate people
worldwide into the false sense of security and justice they are
looking for, but will not find with digital gold.
Mark: thank you for the wetpaint wiki. Starting work at
http://dgc.wetpaint.com/page/Agora
thomas hartman
Jun 8, 2008, 8:17:25 PM6/8/08
to Ripple users
Marcell, James Turk seems to make this argument with regards to gld
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=james+turk+gld&btnG=Google+Search
To be honest, while I find this discussion academically interesting, I
think it goes a little too far afield from "what do we want the user
experience of ripple to be" which is what I am pretty much stuck on at
this point.
So Marcell, if I may ask you a question, when you imagine yourself
using ripple in the near future, what does it "feel" like? Do you use
a credit card? Do you log in through a web browser? Do you send an
sms?
Finally can you imagine yourself using ripple in a scenario short of
total Weimerian economic collapse? What's the scenario, if you can?
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=james+turk+gld&btnG=Google+Search
To be honest, while I find this discussion academically interesting, I
think it goes a little too far afield from "what do we want the user
experience of ripple to be" which is what I am pretty much stuck on at
this point.
So Marcell, if I may ask you a question, when you imagine yourself
using ripple in the near future, what does it "feel" like? Do you use
a credit card? Do you log in through a web browser? Do you send an
sms?
Finally can you imagine yourself using ripple in a scenario short of
total Weimerian economic collapse? What's the scenario, if you can?
James Anastasios
Jun 8, 2008, 11:24:12 PM6/8/08
to rippl...@googlegroups.com
I think Ripple has a lot of value to add to the LETS community. What
if every LETS group had it's own server? Could Ripple work in that
capacity?
if every LETS group had it's own server? Could Ripple work in that
capacity?
Sepp
Jun 9, 2008, 6:51:49 AM6/9/08
to Ripple users
I see ripple as a means of linking up any and all forms of alternative
currency with "official" currencies to extend reach and usefulness of
the alternatives. In time, the most popular currencies will gain
preeminence.
Ripple itself, as interpersonal ripple, could be a currency as well -
credit based.
If we are going towards an auditable total of emitted tokens, why not
add another feature: The possibility for a monthly demurrage charge.
This need not be implemented immediately or even decided immediately,
but I see a demurrage as a good tool to keep total of emitted tokens
in line with volume of trade.
Demurrage could also constitute a reserve as an insurance against loss
from single accounts going bad, and it could serve as a re-
distribution reserve to prevent excessive accumulation of tokens as
happens in today's economy, partly due to the mechanism of interest.
Sepp
On Jun 9, 2:17 am, thomas hartman <thomashartm...@googlemail.com>
wrote:
currency with "official" currencies to extend reach and usefulness of
the alternatives. In time, the most popular currencies will gain
preeminence.
Ripple itself, as interpersonal ripple, could be a currency as well -
credit based.
If we are going towards an auditable total of emitted tokens, why not
add another feature: The possibility for a monthly demurrage charge.
This need not be implemented immediately or even decided immediately,
but I see a demurrage as a good tool to keep total of emitted tokens
in line with volume of trade.
Demurrage could also constitute a reserve as an insurance against loss
from single accounts going bad, and it could serve as a re-
distribution reserve to prevent excessive accumulation of tokens as
happens in today's economy, partly due to the mechanism of interest.
Sepp
On Jun 9, 2:17 am, thomas hartman <thomashartm...@googlemail.com>
wrote:
Sepp
Jun 9, 2008, 6:52:17 AM6/9/08
to Ripple users
I see ripple as a means of linking up any and all forms of alternative
currency with "official" currencies to extend reach and usefulness of
the alternatives. In time, the most popular currencies will gain
preeminence.
Ripple itself, as interpersonal ripple, could be a currency as well -
credit based.
If we are going towards an auditable total of emitted tokens, why not
add another feature: The possibility for a monthly demurrage charge.
This need not be implemented immediately or even decided immediately,
but I see a demurrage as a good tool to keep total of emitted tokens
in line with volume of trade.
Demurrage could also constitute a reserve as an insurance against loss
from single accounts going bad, and it could serve as a re-
distribution reserve to prevent excessive accumulation of tokens as
happens in today's economy, partly due to the mechanism of interest.
Sepp
On Jun 9, 2:17 am, thomas hartman <thomashartm...@googlemail.com>
wrote:
currency with "official" currencies to extend reach and usefulness of
the alternatives. In time, the most popular currencies will gain
preeminence.
Ripple itself, as interpersonal ripple, could be a currency as well -
credit based.
If we are going towards an auditable total of emitted tokens, why not
add another feature: The possibility for a monthly demurrage charge.
This need not be implemented immediately or even decided immediately,
but I see a demurrage as a good tool to keep total of emitted tokens
in line with volume of trade.
Demurrage could also constitute a reserve as an insurance against loss
from single accounts going bad, and it could serve as a re-
distribution reserve to prevent excessive accumulation of tokens as
happens in today's economy, partly due to the mechanism of interest.
Sepp
On Jun 9, 2:17 am, thomas hartman <thomashartm...@googlemail.com>
wrote:
Marcell
Jun 10, 2008, 7:34:46 PM6/10/08
to Ripple users
Sepp <s...@lastrega.com> wrote:
> I see ripple as a means of linking up any and all forms of alternative
> currency with "official" currencies to extend reach and usefulness of
> the alternatives.
absolutely, ripple is apparently closer than anything else to hook up
> I see ripple as a means of linking up any and all forms of alternative
> currency with "official" currencies to extend reach and usefulness of
> the alternatives.
the
isolated local currencies to a convertible world wide market that
reaches
the critical mass.
> If we are going towards an auditable total of emitted tokens
auditable total of emitted tokens protects honest parties and helps
avoid everyday fraud
(that the money changers would use to mount a defamation attack).
> add another feature: The possibility for a monthly demurrage charge.
> This need not be implemented immediately or even decided immediately,
> but I see a demurrage as a good tool to keep total of emitted tokens
> in line with volume of trade.
straightforward for the governments to demand it as a tax,
likely together with "Tobin-tax" (which is 1000..5000 ppm of
transactions,
and results in money velocity-- , although rather effects speculative
trade only and not real-exchange-related trade).
The feasibility is a good question.
1) since the money we can issue is backed by real obligations
(service / goods),
system + currencies that provide yield (see redemption curves on
http://www.falura.hu/en/ )
are likely to win over system + currencies that "lose value".
2) even if laws are passed that make it obligatory, is it enforcable ?
Aren't the laws of math
stronger than the laws of man ? (crypto anarchy) My guess is that it's
possible to word contracts so they avoid demurrage
or other taxation unless they get to court (which is a negligible
percentage of all contracts).
Demurrage would go well with government issued Fiat money, but it's
very likely that critical mass
is reached with a proper auditable electronic currency system before
any parliament is straightened
to fix the flawed money issue. So the only chance we'd see government
issued money if we monetize the bonds
that government issues, by a market, so people start to use it as
money. But demurrage is just countrary
to the concept of governent issued bonds.
> Demurrage could also constitute a reserve as an insurance against loss
> from single accounts going bad
Some proper taxation method and democratically spent budget would be
cool
(instead of the current questionable methods governments do), but I
doubt
it can compete with a monetary system of almost 0 cost.
To finance the system itself and education,
we can generate revenue in the beginning, by providing cheaper
"bridges"
than the current alternatives (think about international transfers and
paypal),
but expect profits going to near 0 quickly as competitition will
work ...
for the benefit of mankind.
Thomas Hartman
Jun 10, 2008, 7:42:57 PM6/10/08
to rippl...@googlegroups.com
>"but expect profits going to near 0"
real systems, run by real people, who need to eat, pay rent, and raise
kids, needs to bring in some kind of revenue somewhere.
with gmail and the like free services the revenue is advertising.
with ripple it could conceivably be other. but it has to be something.
just saying.
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