Project status
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Jason Kolb
Jul 11, 2009, 7:04:07 PM7/11/09
to Ripple users
Hi guys,
Just found this project recently, am very keen to contribute whatever
I can or at least find people who want to work on something like
this. I think we need a system like this badly, it's something I've
been sketching out for a few years myself. Is there some kind of a
project status page somewhere that I missed?
Thanks,
Jason
Just found this project recently, am very keen to contribute whatever
I can or at least find people who want to work on something like
this. I think we need a system like this badly, it's something I've
been sketching out for a few years myself. Is there some kind of a
project status page somewhere that I missed?
Thanks,
Jason
otak...@gmail.com
Jul 12, 2009, 3:29:53 AM7/12/09
to rippl...@googlegroups.com
Do you mean this page
http://ripple.sourceforge.net/
and information is here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripple_monetary_system
what are your ideas?
Alex
Jason Kolb
Jul 12, 2009, 9:11:37 AM7/12/09
to rippl...@googlegroups.com
Was looking more for a page that describes what's being worked on and what the status is for the various bits.
wizardwatson
Jul 12, 2009, 11:48:03 AM7/12/09
to Ripple users
There's a mailing list as well that Ryan set up I think.
From my understanding Ripple is kind of frozen in the current state.
If you've looked around at other community currency projects you'll
probably see a lot of experimentation and people just playing with
things on their own.
And most community currency projects (75+%) imo are nothing but small
barter networks, that represents a single currency. Ripple is the
only system I know of that is designed from the beginning to resolve
transactions between not only different currencies, but between
different currencies, when possibly, neither party has a currency in
common.
So in my opinion, Ripple is the best idea so far, but status is that
it isn't moving anywhere at the moment. All sorts of intricate issues
come to light, when you start to actually design something like this.
Stability, free-riding, sock-puppetry, lack of ubiquity, transaction
limits, etc. And the type of model you use, changes what the problems
are.
Anyway, there's a thread in this group somewhere where Ryan talked
about status of the project.
On Jul 12, 8:11 am, Jason Kolb <jason.k...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Was looking more for a page that describes what's being worked on and what
> the status is for the various bits.
>
From my understanding Ripple is kind of frozen in the current state.
If you've looked around at other community currency projects you'll
probably see a lot of experimentation and people just playing with
things on their own.
And most community currency projects (75+%) imo are nothing but small
barter networks, that represents a single currency. Ripple is the
only system I know of that is designed from the beginning to resolve
transactions between not only different currencies, but between
different currencies, when possibly, neither party has a currency in
common.
So in my opinion, Ripple is the best idea so far, but status is that
it isn't moving anywhere at the moment. All sorts of intricate issues
come to light, when you start to actually design something like this.
Stability, free-riding, sock-puppetry, lack of ubiquity, transaction
limits, etc. And the type of model you use, changes what the problems
are.
Anyway, there's a thread in this group somewhere where Ryan talked
about status of the project.
On Jul 12, 8:11 am, Jason Kolb <jason.k...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Was looking more for a page that describes what's being worked on and what
> the status is for the various bits.
>
Jason Kolb
Jul 12, 2009, 2:14:38 PM7/12/09
to rippl...@googlegroups.com
Yeah, the thread I found was from 2007, was hoping there was some more activity than that.
Ripple is definitely the best conceptual implementation that I've found, most others are in outer space when it comes to a framework that will allow debt-based financial markets to actually function.
I'd love to think thru and hash out those details, those are make-or-break for this type of project. I'll check out the mailer, thanks for the pointer.
Ripple is definitely the best conceptual implementation that I've found, most others are in outer space when it comes to a framework that will allow debt-based financial markets to actually function.
I'd love to think thru and hash out those details, those are make-or-break for this type of project. I'll check out the mailer, thanks for the pointer.
Ryan Fugger
Jul 12, 2009, 2:38:19 PM7/12/09
to rippl...@googlegroups.com
Yes, the project is dormant right now. I did wake up this morning
thinking about Ripplepay.com, and how it must seem coming to that site
as a new user who doesn't quite know what it's all about. It's
probably pretty confusing and somewhat intimidating. It seems like it
has something to do with money, but it's hard to figure out what, and
some friend has invited you to join, but it might be risky.
thinking about Ripplepay.com, and how it must seem coming to that site
as a new user who doesn't quite know what it's all about. It's
probably pretty confusing and somewhat intimidating. It seems like it
has something to do with money, but it's hard to figure out what, and
some friend has invited you to join, but it might be risky.
Another issue I had launching Ripplepay was that a lot of people (like
hotmail users) didn't seem to get their email invitations delivered.
I fixed that, but it probably hurt when there were people actually
trying to grow their networks at the start.
Ripplepay could be done a lot better, that's for sure. Here are some
things Ripplepay could use:
- a demo for new users to play with before signing up
- a better interface
- a marketplace so users can spend their credits on something
- a facebook and/or opensocial interface
- a way of importing your contacts/friends list from another service
There is another mailing list on sourceforge for development of the
distributed protocol, but I don't think that's worth spending too much
more time on until it's clear what the need is that it fills. That's
probably true for any generic Ripple server, for that matter. Ripple
has probably always been a bit bogged down by trying to do too much
too soon.
Ryan
Thomas Hartman
Jul 12, 2009, 2:48:35 PM7/12/09
to rippl...@googlegroups.com
I would like to do a commercial startup based on ripple or something like it.
But after quite a long time attempting to wrap my head around this , I
can't figure out how, and I think neither can Ryan.
One big problem is that the banking system, for all that it is a
global laughing stock after the developments of 2008, still works
pretty darn well in most places. For all that it sounds great in
theory, it seems difficult to find a scenario where ripple-ish system
would have mass appeal in practice.
And for the non mass-appeal, fringy alt economic stuff things seem to
be working pretty well with LETS.
IIRC Chris Cook has some ideas about using ripple to run a clearing
union with asset/revenue backed currencies, but I'm still not clear on
whether this really needs ripple and couldn't do just as well using
some SWIFT clone or something like it.
Is ripple just a SWIFT clone, but better? Is it barter? Is it LETS
done right? And if any of the above, is it needed?
Thsese types of questions keep me up and night.
In short, if you think you have a commercially viable idea, feel free
to run it by the board in public or by me and/or Ryan in private and
maybe you can better than us :)
Meanwhile, ripple hybernates.
--
Thomas Hartman
Darcs hosting: patch-tag.com
Build a webapp with haskell: happstack.com
But after quite a long time attempting to wrap my head around this , I
can't figure out how, and I think neither can Ryan.
One big problem is that the banking system, for all that it is a
global laughing stock after the developments of 2008, still works
pretty darn well in most places. For all that it sounds great in
theory, it seems difficult to find a scenario where ripple-ish system
would have mass appeal in practice.
And for the non mass-appeal, fringy alt economic stuff things seem to
be working pretty well with LETS.
IIRC Chris Cook has some ideas about using ripple to run a clearing
union with asset/revenue backed currencies, but I'm still not clear on
whether this really needs ripple and couldn't do just as well using
some SWIFT clone or something like it.
Is ripple just a SWIFT clone, but better? Is it barter? Is it LETS
done right? And if any of the above, is it needed?
Thsese types of questions keep me up and night.
In short, if you think you have a commercially viable idea, feel free
to run it by the board in public or by me and/or Ryan in private and
maybe you can better than us :)
Meanwhile, ripple hybernates.
Thomas Hartman
Darcs hosting: patch-tag.com
Build a webapp with haskell: happstack.com
Chris Wagner
Jul 12, 2009, 4:09:13 PM7/12/09
to rippl...@googlegroups.com
Someone just needs to create a "Ripple Marketplace" website. It should
be an incredibly easy thing to create, and there are lots of people that
have interest in seeing Ripple and/or some kind of alternative monetary
system to fruition; they could start using the thing "today".
be an incredibly easy thing to create, and there are lots of people that
have interest in seeing Ripple and/or some kind of alternative monetary
system to fruition; they could start using the thing "today".
People that are interested in bootstrapping the market could kickstart
it by placing things they wouldn't lose sleep over losing -- old books,
spare computer parts, ... -- the types of things you throw up on Craig's
List when you no longer have a need for them. Then as trust networks
are built, more interesting exchanges can grow organically.
I've had interest in working on a Ripple Marketplace for some time,
myself, and I would definitely consider working on it if one or more
other people were interested. Especially fun would be to work with some
others in the Boston area on such a project...
I think trying to get big banks and the like to start using something
like Ripple is a bit of a lost cause. I sincerely hope that we'll all
have "Ripple cards", instead of "Visa cards", in our wallets in fifteen
years' time, but for now why not start with this simple step? I have a
lot of stuff in my room that I'd like to get rid of!
Cheers,
Chris W.
cjen...@googlemail.com
Jul 13, 2009, 5:36:48 AM7/13/09
to Ripple users
Hi Thomas
I posted this recent presentation on another thread.
http://www.slideshare.net/ChrisJCook/money-30
I see the requirement as for what Tom Greco calls a "Credit Clearing
Union", Credit being "time to pay" between seller and buyer.
Individuals, and "Enterprises" (groups of individuals defined by legal
protocols, formally or informally) create between themselves credit
obligations to provide "money's worth" at some future time (either
dated eg 30 days credit, or undated eg a bank note).
This "money's worth" can literally be anything, but since barter is
pretty inefficient and illiquid, society has evolved currencies (Units
of money's worth), which people are accustomed to use in exchange, and
as a "store of value".
In this blog entry
http://nordicenterprisetrust.wordpress.com/2009/04/12/towards-an-economics-of-common-sense/
I argue that there are essentially three bases for currencies which
are generally acceptable or fungible:
(a) Location - the use value of which backs over 70% of money in
circulation today - note that this is inherently geographicaly
constrained, so that Units redeemable in location use value can only
be redeemed in the country of issue;
(b) Energy, in static (material) and dynamic forms; and
(c) Knowledge - either;
(i) what you have between your ears, and dies with you, and is in fact
the key component of an individuals "use value" (it enables
individuals to deploy their energy aka manpower to optimal effect); or
(ii) objectified "Intellectual property",which also has a use value
over time.
In order for the Credit Clearing System to operate we need:
(a) a "Value Standard" - or Unit of measure - as John Law put it, the
value we exchange goods BY, not FOR. The WIR credit clearing barter
system is a good example, where no Swiss Francs change hands, but
goods and services change hands BY REFERENCE TO Swiss Francs as a
Value Standard.
NB: I advocate an "energy standard"
http://ftalphaville.ft.com/2009/04/06/54175/a-commodity-anchor-or-oil-as-money/
(b) an accounting system, consisting of a shared transaction
repository, and a shared title repository;
(c) a framework of trust - which is the legal protocol which gives
transactions legal effect,specifies a mutual guarantee, governance;
etc etc;
(d) an operating system - ie what is known as a settlement system,
which specifies the algorithms which apply to the settlement of
outstanding obligations.
My work has been in relation to the overall architecture of Peer to
Peer monetary systems and markets generally (as above) and
specifically the framework of trust I call a "Guarantee Society", and
the mechanism which allows redeemable Units to be issued / created by
productive assets - which I call a "Capital Partnership".
Ripple I see as a methodology or algorithm for the settlement of
obligations. ie it is a settlement tool.
It would be quite possible to apply Ripple right now in the settlement
of Brent/BFOE forward contracts in North Sea crude oil. That is quite
a simple use case.
Also in the settlement of Credit Default Swaps, where it would be an
alternative to the current plans (which are either cynical or daft)
to create central counterparties aka "single points of failure" to
clear this toxic waste. The solution I advocate there is for a shared
transaction repository, a mutual guarantee backed by a default pool in
turn backed by governments, to whom premiums/provisions are paid, and
a Ripple clearing/settlement algorithm.
I am aware of work going on in Ecuador for a system to clear and
settle bilateral trade credits between businesses a database of which
is held as the national Value Added Tax database. Again, a Ripple
algorithm is IMHO necessary to optimise what is essentially the
settlement of obligations with other obligations.
The key point is that we would be getting rid of dated obligations. ie
all obligations would be undated (that's why "redeemable" banknotes
work - except they are not redeemable for money's worth, as I advocate
they should be, merely for more intrinsically worthless banknotes),
and this simplifies the system and process immensely.
I could go on.Hopefully you get the idea.
Best Regards
Chris Cook
On Jul 12, 7:48 pm, Thomas Hartman <thomashartm...@googlemail.com>
wrote:
I posted this recent presentation on another thread.
http://www.slideshare.net/ChrisJCook/money-30
I see the requirement as for what Tom Greco calls a "Credit Clearing
Union", Credit being "time to pay" between seller and buyer.
Individuals, and "Enterprises" (groups of individuals defined by legal
protocols, formally or informally) create between themselves credit
obligations to provide "money's worth" at some future time (either
dated eg 30 days credit, or undated eg a bank note).
This "money's worth" can literally be anything, but since barter is
pretty inefficient and illiquid, society has evolved currencies (Units
of money's worth), which people are accustomed to use in exchange, and
as a "store of value".
In this blog entry
http://nordicenterprisetrust.wordpress.com/2009/04/12/towards-an-economics-of-common-sense/
I argue that there are essentially three bases for currencies which
are generally acceptable or fungible:
(a) Location - the use value of which backs over 70% of money in
circulation today - note that this is inherently geographicaly
constrained, so that Units redeemable in location use value can only
be redeemed in the country of issue;
(b) Energy, in static (material) and dynamic forms; and
(c) Knowledge - either;
(i) what you have between your ears, and dies with you, and is in fact
the key component of an individuals "use value" (it enables
individuals to deploy their energy aka manpower to optimal effect); or
(ii) objectified "Intellectual property",which also has a use value
over time.
In order for the Credit Clearing System to operate we need:
(a) a "Value Standard" - or Unit of measure - as John Law put it, the
value we exchange goods BY, not FOR. The WIR credit clearing barter
system is a good example, where no Swiss Francs change hands, but
goods and services change hands BY REFERENCE TO Swiss Francs as a
Value Standard.
NB: I advocate an "energy standard"
http://ftalphaville.ft.com/2009/04/06/54175/a-commodity-anchor-or-oil-as-money/
(b) an accounting system, consisting of a shared transaction
repository, and a shared title repository;
(c) a framework of trust - which is the legal protocol which gives
transactions legal effect,specifies a mutual guarantee, governance;
etc etc;
(d) an operating system - ie what is known as a settlement system,
which specifies the algorithms which apply to the settlement of
outstanding obligations.
My work has been in relation to the overall architecture of Peer to
Peer monetary systems and markets generally (as above) and
specifically the framework of trust I call a "Guarantee Society", and
the mechanism which allows redeemable Units to be issued / created by
productive assets - which I call a "Capital Partnership".
Ripple I see as a methodology or algorithm for the settlement of
obligations. ie it is a settlement tool.
It would be quite possible to apply Ripple right now in the settlement
of Brent/BFOE forward contracts in North Sea crude oil. That is quite
a simple use case.
Also in the settlement of Credit Default Swaps, where it would be an
alternative to the current plans (which are either cynical or daft)
to create central counterparties aka "single points of failure" to
clear this toxic waste. The solution I advocate there is for a shared
transaction repository, a mutual guarantee backed by a default pool in
turn backed by governments, to whom premiums/provisions are paid, and
a Ripple clearing/settlement algorithm.
I am aware of work going on in Ecuador for a system to clear and
settle bilateral trade credits between businesses a database of which
is held as the national Value Added Tax database. Again, a Ripple
algorithm is IMHO necessary to optimise what is essentially the
settlement of obligations with other obligations.
The key point is that we would be getting rid of dated obligations. ie
all obligations would be undated (that's why "redeemable" banknotes
work - except they are not redeemable for money's worth, as I advocate
they should be, merely for more intrinsically worthless banknotes),
and this simplifies the system and process immensely.
I could go on.Hopefully you get the idea.
Best Regards
Chris Cook
On Jul 12, 7:48 pm, Thomas Hartman <thomashartm...@googlemail.com>
wrote:
Miles Thompson
Jul 13, 2009, 5:54:05 AM7/13/09
to rippl...@googlegroups.com
Hey all,
Wanted to chime in quickly on this.
Yup I agree that from a technical/code perspective this project is not exactly 'active'. On the other hand there seems to be quite a bit of interest in the concept.
Like a few others i would also like to work on this idea, with some variations, and have begun work in that direction.
My thoughts on ripple protocol itself:
- i think it would be better to de-emphasize p2p and privacy and emphasize transparency instead. This would make the technology easier (simple OSPF routing anyone?) but also would help to avoid the fate of e-gold (http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/06/e-gold/ ). I think lack of transparency is a huge problem with our current (mainstream) banking system and don't see any reason to make that a lynchpin of the project. Some degree of privacy, sure.
- A time element should be incorporated so that when creating a credit limit and once a 'payment' has occurred there is max time within which the debt at that point in the chain needs to be settled or go into default. I think ripple deals with 'defaults' much better than LETS, in theory, but if there is no time limit then nothing goes into actual default.
- I'm not sure I understand why credit limits should be symmetrical. On the contrary i can see cases where i might be want to do business with someone (like a shopkeeper with good reputation) that I trust more than they are willing to trust me. Symmetrical limits helps to build up the network and 'depth' of credit limits over time, which is good, but there would be other ways to support that.
- Generally more needs to be done around this area of groupings of people for greater trust - what Chris Cook talks about as guarantee societies. However perhaps that would be a layer 'on top of' ripple and in any event is too big an area to discuss just now.
Thoughts on ripple as a project
Chris Wagner <christophe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Someone just needs to create a "Ripple Marketplace" website
Yes. It seems the successful alt currencies are the ones that come about in the context of a real community of people with real needs.
So far there seems to be two classes of alt currency projects from the last decade. Neat technical ideas, that no one particularly seems to use, and 'local community' (usually LETS based) or commercial barter projects that people actually do use but that are technologically lo-fi. As Clay Shirky says (http://bit.ly/LE8PM) it's when technology becomes boring that it becomes socially interesting and I think we may finally be at that tipping point for web based currency projects where it is finally possible to socially support currencies that are technically more ambitious than could be done with pen and paper (like Ripple).
After visiting the alternative currencies conference here in NZ and talking about what people actually need i actually set to work, not building a currency system, but rather a trade and exchange listing service for ooooby.org. its not quite ready to unveil yet but more coming soon. I hope to support ripple payments (or a ripple focused community if necessary) as part of this.
I need to get the aim's for the project straight, but one of the aims seems to be to build something that can be used by communities *where they are already are* (Ie as a widget in facebook or opensocial or whatever) rather than trying to create a new market place and build a community around that
Another aim is to build an open source, open data tool that is also open to use by any community and in any currency.
I hope to have something more solid to show in a week or two but can send links if need be.
My hope is to build a community (or tap into various communities) of people using the listing service for things like ooooby or freecycle or whatever for free or barter trade initially and then introduce them to a version of the ripple currency later.
I don't think we need to think in terms of a formal vc funded type startup around ripple just yet (though I love the idea) rather in terms of a loose agglomeration of people with interest in this subject who can contribute to projects that use each others open source technology and can provide services to non-closed (but rather open data) communities.
Anyway its great to hear of people getting interested. Wanted to jump in and say *something* now but as I say hope to have more to say soon. Write to me off list if you want to know more now
thanks
miles thompson
http://milo.graytime.org
http://twitter.com/utunga
http://linkedin.com/in/milesthompson
http://www.linkedin.com/in/milesthompson
Wanted to chime in quickly on this.
Yup I agree that from a technical/code perspective this project is not exactly 'active'. On the other hand there seems to be quite a bit of interest in the concept.
Like a few others i would also like to work on this idea, with some variations, and have begun work in that direction.
My thoughts on ripple protocol itself:
- i think it would be better to de-emphasize p2p and privacy and emphasize transparency instead. This would make the technology easier (simple OSPF routing anyone?) but also would help to avoid the fate of e-gold (http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/06/e-gold/ ). I think lack of transparency is a huge problem with our current (mainstream) banking system and don't see any reason to make that a lynchpin of the project. Some degree of privacy, sure.
- A time element should be incorporated so that when creating a credit limit and once a 'payment' has occurred there is max time within which the debt at that point in the chain needs to be settled or go into default. I think ripple deals with 'defaults' much better than LETS, in theory, but if there is no time limit then nothing goes into actual default.
- I'm not sure I understand why credit limits should be symmetrical. On the contrary i can see cases where i might be want to do business with someone (like a shopkeeper with good reputation) that I trust more than they are willing to trust me. Symmetrical limits helps to build up the network and 'depth' of credit limits over time, which is good, but there would be other ways to support that.
- Generally more needs to be done around this area of groupings of people for greater trust - what Chris Cook talks about as guarantee societies. However perhaps that would be a layer 'on top of' ripple and in any event is too big an area to discuss just now.
Thoughts on ripple as a project
Chris Wagner <christophe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Someone just needs to create a "Ripple Marketplace" website
So far there seems to be two classes of alt currency projects from the last decade. Neat technical ideas, that no one particularly seems to use, and 'local community' (usually LETS based) or commercial barter projects that people actually do use but that are technologically lo-fi. As Clay Shirky says (http://bit.ly/LE8PM) it's when technology becomes boring that it becomes socially interesting and I think we may finally be at that tipping point for web based currency projects where it is finally possible to socially support currencies that are technically more ambitious than could be done with pen and paper (like Ripple).
After visiting the alternative currencies conference here in NZ and talking about what people actually need i actually set to work, not building a currency system, but rather a trade and exchange listing service for ooooby.org. its not quite ready to unveil yet but more coming soon. I hope to support ripple payments (or a ripple focused community if necessary) as part of this.
I need to get the aim's for the project straight, but one of the aims seems to be to build something that can be used by communities *where they are already are* (Ie as a widget in facebook or opensocial or whatever) rather than trying to create a new market place and build a community around that
Another aim is to build an open source, open data tool that is also open to use by any community and in any currency.
I hope to have something more solid to show in a week or two but can send links if need be.
My hope is to build a community (or tap into various communities) of people using the listing service for things like ooooby or freecycle or whatever for free or barter trade initially and then introduce them to a version of the ripple currency later.
I don't think we need to think in terms of a formal vc funded type startup around ripple just yet (though I love the idea) rather in terms of a loose agglomeration of people with interest in this subject who can contribute to projects that use each others open source technology and can provide services to non-closed (but rather open data) communities.
Anyway its great to hear of people getting interested. Wanted to jump in and say *something* now but as I say hope to have more to say soon. Write to me off list if you want to know more now
thanks
miles thompson
http://milo.graytime.org
http://twitter.com/utunga
http://linkedin.com/in/milesthompson
http://www.linkedin.com/in/milesthompson
On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 8:09 AM,
Thomas Hartman
Jul 13, 2009, 10:10:42 AM7/13/09
to rippl...@googlegroups.com
> I don't think we need to think in terms of a formal vc funded type startup around ripple just yet
That's reasonable, but I do think the startup should have a concrete
use case and a business model in mind before coding starts. After
all... we've tried the other way.
This is the kind of startup a VC would invest in without needing too
much antacid.
In other words, should be the type of project where the *option* of VC
funding isn't too daft, and the revenue model should be explainable in
plain english to people with average intelligence who aren't already
alt currency afficionados. So far nothing proposed with ripple has
managed to do this.
cjen...@googlemail.com
Jul 13, 2009, 2:23:36 PM7/13/09
to Ripple users
Thomas
If you do go the VC route, I recommend you get a "Capital Partner" on
a revenue sharing basis.
http://www.slideshare.net/ChrisJCook/social-investment-mechanism-12-03-09
The IP stays with a "Custodian" (with certain veto governance rights,
plus nominal ownership of the bank accounts/transaction registries.
A consortium of individuals and enterprises is the Developer/Operator
A consortium of investor VCs is the Investor
A consortium of users.
Each of these groups is then a member of (say) a Vermont Virtual LLC.
Best Regards
Chris
On 13 July, 15:10, Thomas Hartman <thomashartm...@googlemail.com>
wrote:
If you do go the VC route, I recommend you get a "Capital Partner" on
a revenue sharing basis.
http://www.slideshare.net/ChrisJCook/social-investment-mechanism-12-03-09
The IP stays with a "Custodian" (with certain veto governance rights,
plus nominal ownership of the bank accounts/transaction registries.
A consortium of individuals and enterprises is the Developer/Operator
A consortium of investor VCs is the Investor
A consortium of users.
Each of these groups is then a member of (say) a Vermont Virtual LLC.
Best Regards
Chris
On 13 July, 15:10, Thomas Hartman <thomashartm...@googlemail.com>
wrote:
> > I don't think we need to think in terms of a formal vc funded type startup around ripple just yet
>
> That's reasonable, but I do think the startup should have a concrete
> use case and a business model in mind before coding starts. After
> all... we've tried the other way.
>
> This is the kind of startup a VC would invest in without needing too
> much antacid.
>
> In other words, should be the type of project where the *option* of VC
> funding isn't too daft, and the revenue model should be explainable in
> plain english to people with average intelligence who aren't already
> alt currency afficionados. So far nothing proposed with ripple has
> managed to do this.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 5:54 AM, Miles Thompson<utu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hey all,
>
> > Wanted to chime in quickly on this.
>
> > Yup I agree that from a technical/code perspective this project is not
> > exactly 'active'. On the other hand there seems to be quite a bit of
> > interest in the concept.
>
> > Like a few others i would also like to work on this idea, with some
> > variations, and have begun work in that direction.
>
> > My thoughts on ripple protocol itself:
>
> > - i think it would be better to de-emphasize p2p and privacy and emphasize
> > transparency instead. This would make the technology easier (simple OSPF
> > routing anyone?) but also would help to avoid the fate of e-gold
> > (http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/06/e-gold/). I think lack of
>
> That's reasonable, but I do think the startup should have a concrete
> use case and a business model in mind before coding starts. After
> all... we've tried the other way.
>
> This is the kind of startup a VC would invest in without needing too
> much antacid.
>
> In other words, should be the type of project where the *option* of VC
> funding isn't too daft, and the revenue model should be explainable in
> plain english to people with average intelligence who aren't already
> alt currency afficionados. So far nothing proposed with ripple has
> managed to do this.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 5:54 AM, Miles Thompson<utu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hey all,
>
> > Wanted to chime in quickly on this.
>
> > Yup I agree that from a technical/code perspective this project is not
> > exactly 'active'. On the other hand there seems to be quite a bit of
> > interest in the concept.
>
> > Like a few others i would also like to work on this idea, with some
> > variations, and have begun work in that direction.
>
> > My thoughts on ripple protocol itself:
>
> > - i think it would be better to de-emphasize p2p and privacy and emphasize
> > transparency instead. This would make the technology easier (simple OSPF
> > routing anyone?) but also would help to avoid the fate of e-gold
> > transparency is a huge problem with our current (mainstream) banking system
> > and don't see any reason to make that a lynchpin of the project. Some degree
> > of privacy, sure.
>
> > - A time element should be incorporated so that when creating a credit limit
> > and once a 'payment' has occurred there is max time within which the debt at
> > that point in the chain needs to be settled or go into default. I think
> > ripple deals with 'defaults' much better than LETS, in theory, but if there
> > is no time limit then nothing goes into actual default.
>
> > - I'm not sure I understand why credit limits should be symmetrical. On the
> > contrary i can see cases where i might be want to do business with someone
> > (like a shopkeeper with good reputation) that I trust more than they are
> > willing to trust me. Symmetrical limits helps to build up the network and
> > 'depth' of credit limits over time, which is good, but there would be other
> > ways to support that.
>
> > - Generally more needs to be done around this area of groupings of people
> > for greater trust - what Chris Cook talks about as guarantee societies.
> > However perhaps that would be a layer 'on top of' ripple and in any event is
> > too big an area to discuss just now.
>
> > Thoughts on ripple as a project
>
> > and don't see any reason to make that a lynchpin of the project. Some degree
> > of privacy, sure.
>
> > - A time element should be incorporated so that when creating a credit limit
> > and once a 'payment' has occurred there is max time within which the debt at
> > that point in the chain needs to be settled or go into default. I think
> > ripple deals with 'defaults' much better than LETS, in theory, but if there
> > is no time limit then nothing goes into actual default.
>
> > - I'm not sure I understand why credit limits should be symmetrical. On the
> > contrary i can see cases where i might be want to do business with someone
> > (like a shopkeeper with good reputation) that I trust more than they are
> > willing to trust me. Symmetrical limits helps to build up the network and
> > 'depth' of credit limits over time, which is good, but there would be other
> > ways to support that.
>
> > - Generally more needs to be done around this area of groupings of people
> > for greater trust - what Chris Cook talks about as guarantee societies.
> > However perhaps that would be a layer 'on top of' ripple and in any event is
> > too big an area to discuss just now.
>
> > Thoughts on ripple as a project
>
Thomas Hartman
Jul 13, 2009, 3:55:29 PM7/13/09
to rippl...@googlegroups.com
so the immediate question in terms of concrete use case is...
> A consortium of users.
who is the consortium of users.
In other words, who *needs* this?
> A consortium of users.
who is the consortium of users.
In other words, who *needs* this?
cjen...@googlemail.com
Jul 13, 2009, 5:08:14 PM7/13/09
to Ripple users
Every SME business in a locality: every individual in the same
locality who can't get credit.
Chris
On 13 July, 20:55, Thomas Hartman <thomashartm...@googlemail.com>
wrote:
locality who can't get credit.
Chris
On 13 July, 20:55, Thomas Hartman <thomashartm...@googlemail.com>
wrote:
> so the immediate question in terms of concrete use case is...
>
> > A consortium of users.
>
> who is the consortium of users.
>
> In other words, who *needs* this?
>
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 11:23 AM,
>
>
>
> cjensc...@googlemail.com<cjensc...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > Thomas
>
> > If you do go the VC route, I recommend you get a "Capital Partner" on
> > a revenue sharing basis.
>
> >http://www.slideshare.net/ChrisJCook/social-investment-mechanism-12-0...
>
> > A consortium of users.
>
> who is the consortium of users.
>
> In other words, who *needs* this?
>
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 11:23 AM,
>
>
>
> cjensc...@googlemail.com<cjensc...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > Thomas
>
> > If you do go the VC route, I recommend you get a "Capital Partner" on
> > a revenue sharing basis.
>
wizardwatson
Jul 13, 2009, 5:36:12 PM7/13/09
to Ripple users
I think Chris' ideas are a level above where the project is at.
Chris' ideas involve ways of combining and interacting with one
another through capital/credit exchanging.
The current roadblock to any complete system in my opinion is very
basic. There is no generic currency system/program/algorithm that
allows users to not only interact via payment resolution with anyone
on the network in p2p fashion, but also provides a stable pricing
mechanism. Meaning, if inside my Ripple-network apples cost x units
of y currency today, tomorrow and the next day-all things being equal-
those apples shouldn't fluctuate wildly simply because my neighbors
are going haywire with their conversion rates, etc.
I'm working on some code now, that takes large ripple-like graphs and
computes 'best-fit' conversion values that I hope will address this
issue but I'm still writing code. I'll post the code (in python) up
here once I've actually finished it. It'll probably only be a couple
thousand lines at the most with comments, so if anyone wants to see
how I create and simulate large graphs they can look at it.
And this is another issue. It's difficult for any of us to work
together on this, because my guess is, we all have a slightly
different view of what the problem actually is, and what we're trying
to solve.
For instance, the problem I'm currently trying to solve takes place
before any payments resolution. So in my mental model, I'm working on
solving problems that exist (in my model anyway) before any kind of
Ripple payment algorithm steps even come into play.
And I've said before, but all the discussions about putting it on cell
phones, making a website, improving this or that functionality,
marketing it, finding a user base, etc., I think is putting the cart
before the horse. I don't think that the thing we're all striving to
understand/create, already exists, in that we just need to polish it,
or put on finishing touches...this thing does not exist yet. My guess
is the solution is going to boil down to a certain number of basic
algorithms. Problem is, computers can't make algorithms for us. And
in programming we can't 'partially implement all the required steps',
we can only 'completely implement part of the required steps'. I
think Ripple, is 'part of the required steps'.
Anyway, just talking out loud. I do hope to get this simulation code
done this week, but I've been having a hell of a time at work this
week.
-David
On Jul 13, 2:55 pm, Thomas Hartman <thomashartm...@googlemail.com>
wrote:
Chris' ideas involve ways of combining and interacting with one
another through capital/credit exchanging.
The current roadblock to any complete system in my opinion is very
basic. There is no generic currency system/program/algorithm that
allows users to not only interact via payment resolution with anyone
on the network in p2p fashion, but also provides a stable pricing
mechanism. Meaning, if inside my Ripple-network apples cost x units
of y currency today, tomorrow and the next day-all things being equal-
those apples shouldn't fluctuate wildly simply because my neighbors
are going haywire with their conversion rates, etc.
I'm working on some code now, that takes large ripple-like graphs and
computes 'best-fit' conversion values that I hope will address this
issue but I'm still writing code. I'll post the code (in python) up
here once I've actually finished it. It'll probably only be a couple
thousand lines at the most with comments, so if anyone wants to see
how I create and simulate large graphs they can look at it.
And this is another issue. It's difficult for any of us to work
together on this, because my guess is, we all have a slightly
different view of what the problem actually is, and what we're trying
to solve.
For instance, the problem I'm currently trying to solve takes place
before any payments resolution. So in my mental model, I'm working on
solving problems that exist (in my model anyway) before any kind of
Ripple payment algorithm steps even come into play.
And I've said before, but all the discussions about putting it on cell
phones, making a website, improving this or that functionality,
marketing it, finding a user base, etc., I think is putting the cart
before the horse. I don't think that the thing we're all striving to
understand/create, already exists, in that we just need to polish it,
or put on finishing touches...this thing does not exist yet. My guess
is the solution is going to boil down to a certain number of basic
algorithms. Problem is, computers can't make algorithms for us. And
in programming we can't 'partially implement all the required steps',
we can only 'completely implement part of the required steps'. I
think Ripple, is 'part of the required steps'.
Anyway, just talking out loud. I do hope to get this simulation code
done this week, but I've been having a hell of a time at work this
week.
-David
On Jul 13, 2:55 pm, Thomas Hartman <thomashartm...@googlemail.com>
wrote:
> so the immediate question in terms of concrete use case is...
>
> > A consortium of users.
>
> who is the consortium of users.
>
> In other words, who *needs* this?
>
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 11:23 AM,
>
>
>
> cjensc...@googlemail.com<cjensc...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > Thomas
>
> > If you do go the VC route, I recommend you get a "Capital Partner" on
> > a revenue sharing basis.
>
> >http://www.slideshare.net/ChrisJCook/social-investment-mechanism-12-0...
>
> > A consortium of users.
>
> who is the consortium of users.
>
> In other words, who *needs* this?
>
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 11:23 AM,
>
>
>
> cjensc...@googlemail.com<cjensc...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > Thomas
>
> > If you do go the VC route, I recommend you get a "Capital Partner" on
> > a revenue sharing basis.
>
Miles Thompson
Jul 13, 2009, 6:45:32 PM7/13/09
to rippl...@googlegroups.com
David,
That sounds great, I can't wait to see the simulation code and maybe I can contribute to it in some way after that? I know there are some simulations of transactions on graphs out there already (forget the links just now) but not nearly enough and not quite right for what I wanted to do.
--
I agree that there is nothing much 'there' yet as far as Ripple goes - though - hey there is a working website - so the problem is not one of polishing and finishing but rather building the community and the software to a decent point to start with.
--
By way of motivation for the simulation stuff, here's one of the questions that I feel could be informed by good simulation.
Looking at real world experience with CES/LETS systems here in NZ I note that many of them started off with lots of enthusiasm and then wound down in activity over time.
You hear people who used the system say that the problem was that folks would earn credits and then not have anything to spend those credits on (or at least nothing they wanted). They might say "you can use only so much essential oils and beeswax candles".
Personally I attribute this to two causes - firstly the defaults weren't properly handled and secondly there seemed to be a mis-match between goods for sale and buyers of those goods.
Firstly I think the defaults (people either explicitly or implicitly leaving the system with a non-zero balance) were not/are not handled properly in a LETS system. They are usually a very small percentage but they would slowly build up over time to create positive balances with no real backing. This was manifest, for example in a situation where the local cafe had a massive positive balance, but the many people with negative balances would fail time and again to come through with real goods.
Secondly, there is this apparent problem of mis-match of goods. Many people would say that well, that is just a sign of the fact that the community wasn't large enough yet. That is, once you get to critical mass people will be able to find things they want to trade against. Yes this is true, however what would be really neat is a well designed system that was able to support and work exactly as well as the community of trade will support. Optimally speaking it would be cool if wasn't even possible for people to earn credits they didn't want to spend. Ripple is a bit different in that it doesn't *require* loops of trade to exist for it to be valuable (that is, it 'falls back' to being a simple method for transferring standard fiat currency from point a to point b) and in this sense its more robust to this type of problem but what really excites me about ripple is the possiblity that you get a loop of payments that can all be canceled out, thus effectively creating new currency (after the fact if you will).
All geeks will appreciate the beauty of the bitTorrent protocol. Its beautiful because its like a motorway or a streaming media server where the *more* people that use it the faster it goes. That is awesome. Now yes, there is a download/upload ratio - so that the actions of others using the protocol enforces a rule whereby the more you upload the more you can download. That is neat in itself, and I suppose is a bit like a p2p currency for data that ensures that there are no 'defaults' - or rather that they are limited to a relatively small amount. However this is also another side to the bitTorrent protocol, just as important in making it work IMHO. You see, plenty of servers already existed that enforced upload/download limits but they never saw the kind of performance that you get with bit torrent. This is because people could upload content you didn't really want. What made bitTorrent really work was this random seed thing whereby different downloaders would receive randomly, different parts of the file, and then spread it to others.This is neat because it helps to ensure that the people you connect to will actually have content you want to download from them. Now of course the context with bitTorrent is different (and makes it 'easy' for them) but I can't help noticing a bit of an analogy to trade networks whereby if there is a wide enough / a random distribution of different *types* of goods you are likely to ensure that there is somethign that folks want at any given point in time.
How on earth you could make the analogy to bitTorrent work for real world trade on ripple networks I have no idea, but I hope I have conveyed the idea that there is some similarity there. This question of 'types of goods' is the kind of messy/sticky area that designers of currency protocols usually try to avoid as its just too complex, but I think that an understanding of the dynamics of the real goods that need or want to be traded is absolutely crucial to understanding what makes a given currency fail or succeed.
Hope this was not too incoherent. In any event look forward to seeing what you come up with David.
Miles
That sounds great, I can't wait to see the simulation code and maybe I can contribute to it in some way after that? I know there are some simulations of transactions on graphs out there already (forget the links just now) but not nearly enough and not quite right for what I wanted to do.
--
I agree that there is nothing much 'there' yet as far as Ripple goes - though - hey there is a working website - so the problem is not one of polishing and finishing but rather building the community and the software to a decent point to start with.
--
By way of motivation for the simulation stuff, here's one of the questions that I feel could be informed by good simulation.
Looking at real world experience with CES/LETS systems here in NZ I note that many of them started off with lots of enthusiasm and then wound down in activity over time.
You hear people who used the system say that the problem was that folks would earn credits and then not have anything to spend those credits on (or at least nothing they wanted). They might say "you can use only so much essential oils and beeswax candles".
Personally I attribute this to two causes - firstly the defaults weren't properly handled and secondly there seemed to be a mis-match between goods for sale and buyers of those goods.
Firstly I think the defaults (people either explicitly or implicitly leaving the system with a non-zero balance) were not/are not handled properly in a LETS system. They are usually a very small percentage but they would slowly build up over time to create positive balances with no real backing. This was manifest, for example in a situation where the local cafe had a massive positive balance, but the many people with negative balances would fail time and again to come through with real goods.
Secondly, there is this apparent problem of mis-match of goods. Many people would say that well, that is just a sign of the fact that the community wasn't large enough yet. That is, once you get to critical mass people will be able to find things they want to trade against. Yes this is true, however what would be really neat is a well designed system that was able to support and work exactly as well as the community of trade will support. Optimally speaking it would be cool if wasn't even possible for people to earn credits they didn't want to spend. Ripple is a bit different in that it doesn't *require* loops of trade to exist for it to be valuable (that is, it 'falls back' to being a simple method for transferring standard fiat currency from point a to point b) and in this sense its more robust to this type of problem but what really excites me about ripple is the possiblity that you get a loop of payments that can all be canceled out, thus effectively creating new currency (after the fact if you will).
All geeks will appreciate the beauty of the bitTorrent protocol. Its beautiful because its like a motorway or a streaming media server where the *more* people that use it the faster it goes. That is awesome. Now yes, there is a download/upload ratio - so that the actions of others using the protocol enforces a rule whereby the more you upload the more you can download. That is neat in itself, and I suppose is a bit like a p2p currency for data that ensures that there are no 'defaults' - or rather that they are limited to a relatively small amount. However this is also another side to the bitTorrent protocol, just as important in making it work IMHO. You see, plenty of servers already existed that enforced upload/download limits but they never saw the kind of performance that you get with bit torrent. This is because people could upload content you didn't really want. What made bitTorrent really work was this random seed thing whereby different downloaders would receive randomly, different parts of the file, and then spread it to others.This is neat because it helps to ensure that the people you connect to will actually have content you want to download from them. Now of course the context with bitTorrent is different (and makes it 'easy' for them) but I can't help noticing a bit of an analogy to trade networks whereby if there is a wide enough / a random distribution of different *types* of goods you are likely to ensure that there is somethign that folks want at any given point in time.
How on earth you could make the analogy to bitTorrent work for real world trade on ripple networks I have no idea, but I hope I have conveyed the idea that there is some similarity there. This question of 'types of goods' is the kind of messy/sticky area that designers of currency protocols usually try to avoid as its just too complex, but I think that an understanding of the dynamics of the real goods that need or want to be traded is absolutely crucial to understanding what makes a given currency fail or succeed.
Hope this was not too incoherent. In any event look forward to seeing what you come up with David.
Miles
Ryan Fugger
Jul 13, 2009, 7:29:27 PM7/13/09
to rippl...@googlegroups.com
One simple way forward could be to build a "let's enter our debts and
see if they cancel" facebook app that would find debt loops and cancel
them out. This is a simple enough idea that everyone will get what is
going on.
see if they cancel" facebook app that would find debt loops and cancel
them out. This is a simple enough idea that everyone will get what is
going on.
The extension to single-hop payments is simple: just enter a debt.
The extension to multihop payments is a little more complicated, but
it can be done with a feature like "enter this debt with a stranger -
if it cancels out immediately, great, if not, undo it." Then, with a
feature like "I don't mind going into debt with this person a bit if
it helps other people cancel their debts," you basically have Ripple.
This might be a good way to get people Rippling step-by-step without
too steep of a theoretical learning curve regarding monetary systems,
banking, etc.
Daniel Reeves has suggested letting people enter debts for their
friends to make it easier to reach critical mass -- people who care
can operate the network without needing input from people who are too
busy. With good notifications and basic rules, I think this kind of
thing is workable.
We can borrow a lot of ideas from the Billmonk and Buxfer facebook
apps, as well as sites like tabjab.com to make entering and viewing
debts easy.
Once people start getting that you can make payments with this thing,
adding a marketplace (or integrating with facebook's marketplace app)
would make a lot of sense.
Thoughts?
Ryan
Annette Loudon
Jul 13, 2009, 7:49:39 PM7/13/09
to rippl...@googlegroups.com
sounds fun.
i've been wondering how i'm going to juggle LETS and a ripple style thing.
but may as well give it a shot.
i like the idea of friends setting credit levels with each other.
keen to see if it could be the answer to some of the weaknesses of LETS.
Annette
i've been wondering how i'm going to juggle LETS and a ripple style thing.
but may as well give it a shot.
i like the idea of friends setting credit levels with each other.
keen to see if it could be the answer to some of the weaknesses of LETS.
Annette
Jason Kolb
Jul 14, 2009, 10:39:46 AM7/14/09
to rippl...@googlegroups.com
Chris has nailed it. Everyone needs this.
Just think about how many places are starved for credit right now. Car dealers can't get financing to keep their lots stocked. States and municipalities can't find people to buy their debt. Small businesses can't get loans to cover payroll.
Our current system has become very illiquid. That's sucking down a lot of normally creditworthy businesses who don't have access to the bond markets for one reason or another.
The coolest part of any of this IMO is the idea that you can take something that currently has no liquid market and create a marketplace for it using social graphs and communities. This harnesses more of the productive output of the economy much more efficiently than our current system.
Just think about how many places are starved for credit right now. Car dealers can't get financing to keep their lots stocked. States and municipalities can't find people to buy their debt. Small businesses can't get loans to cover payroll.
Our current system has become very illiquid. That's sucking down a lot of normally creditworthy businesses who don't have access to the bond markets for one reason or another.
The coolest part of any of this IMO is the idea that you can take something that currently has no liquid market and create a marketplace for it using social graphs and communities. This harnesses more of the productive output of the economy much more efficiently than our current system.
Paul Cuciureanu
Jul 14, 2009, 11:16:47 AM7/14/09
to rippl...@googlegroups.com
Hi there,
Is there a wiki somewhere that shows the current design requirements, milestones? In this thread alone there are many ideas - are these ideas shared on a central repository somewhere? Somebody visionary needs to write up the skeleton of a design document, then the rest of us will naturally jump in and complete it.
Cheers,
--
Paul Cuciureanu
Is there a wiki somewhere that shows the current design requirements, milestones? In this thread alone there are many ideas - are these ideas shared on a central repository somewhere? Somebody visionary needs to write up the skeleton of a design document, then the rest of us will naturally jump in and complete it.
Cheers,
2009/7/11 Jason Kolb <jason...@gmail.com>
--
Paul Cuciureanu
Ryan Fugger
Jul 14, 2009, 5:11:00 PM7/14/09
to rippl...@googlegroups.com
On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 8:16 AM, Paul Cuciureanu<pau...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is there a wiki somewhere that shows the current design requirements,
> milestones? In this thread alone there are many ideas - are these ideas
> shared on a central repository somewhere? Somebody visionary needs to write
> up the skeleton of a design document, then the rest of us will naturally
> jump in and complete it.
> Is there a wiki somewhere that shows the current design requirements,
> milestones? In this thread alone there are many ideas - are these ideas
> shared on a central repository somewhere? Somebody visionary needs to write
> up the skeleton of a design document, then the rest of us will naturally
> jump in and complete it.
There's a wiki at http://ripplep2p.com/wiki/ that has a lot of old
design stuff on it. I can share the editing password with anyone who
wants to start writing something up. I'm personally not clear enough
on the way forward to start writing another design document.
On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 7:39 AM, Jason Kolb<jason...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just think about how many places are starved for credit right now. Car
> dealers can't get financing to keep their lots stocked. States and
> municipalities can't find people to buy their debt. Small businesses can't
> get loans to cover payroll.
Definitely there's a need for credit, and Ripple can unlock new
avenues of credit, but we still need to overcome the whole
chicken-and-egg problem: If no one's using the system, credit on it
can't be used for anything, and if credit can't be used for anything,
no one's going to join the system.
What we need is some kind of market where a large segment of the
participants are willing to start using Ripple pretty much all at
once. Ripplepay's been sitting around for a few years now and this
hasn't happened yet. Maybe there needs to be an active marketing
push? This was planned a couple years ago but never got off the
ground:
http://ripplep2p.com/wiki/Main/PotentialRippleClients
Others have said that we're just over-thinking it and ought to move
ahead in some direction for the sake of momentum, and things will
happen. If that's the case, I would probably want to revamp
Ripplepay.com, adding all the goodies like a marketplace, an API, and
a facebook app. Maybe others could spearhead the marketing push?
On the other hand, all of us seem to think Ripple would be a good
thing to have, but do any of us *need* it in our day-to-day or
business lives? If there's someone who can say "make it this way, and
all my people will use it," I'm sure we can do it. I've yet to hear
anyone say that though.
Ryan
otak...@gmail.com
Jul 14, 2009, 9:18:24 PM7/14/09
to rippl...@googlegroups.com
On Jul 14, 2009, at 7:45 AM, Miles Thompson wrote:
> How on earth you could make the analogy to bitTorrent work for real
> world trade on ripple networks I have no idea, but I hope I have
> conveyed the idea that there is some similarity there.
Have you seen Opera Unite?
It just needs a buying/selling service
add Ripple and there it is.
P2P ecommerce.
Alex
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