The RG65 Class and the IRSA
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RG65 UK NCA
Jun 15, 2016, 5:15:23 AM6/15/16
to RG-65 UK
It has come to the notice of the RG65 International Class Association that the IRSA (The radio sailing arm of World Sailing, who govern the existing "International" classes) have turned their focus on the RG65 class and its rules with the intention of bringing the rules in line their standard format as well as changing some details in terms of measurement etc. Most of this has occured without any formal apparoach to the existing RG65 bodies.
As the UK RG65 NCA we need to ask all our members to read the message from Fredo Volmer (the Spanish RG65 NCA representative) about the dialog between the RG65 ICA and the IRSA (A draft of the proposed IRSA rules can be found in 160304.4 Mentges DE+IRSA to Fredo ICA.docx in the dropbox folder he links to) His message can be found Here
Lester Gilbert has posted a response from the IRSA perspective on the MYA forum which goes a long way to explaining what the IRSA can do for the RG65 class without actually asking if the RG65 class wants to be part ot the IRSA. His and other comments can be found Here
The ICA has been asked for a vote on two options
[1] - Accept WS/IRSA tutelage by becoming an IRSA International Class. IRSA has not explained or proposed to us what powers they would exercise. It is possible that they will assert full power to define our Rules and procedures, and that only IRSA affiliates will be able to participate in non local events.
[2] - Reject IRSA's pretention and stay to our own Rules (with due updating when due), continue with our own Activities Schedule, and act according to our established uses and procedures.
We need your votes so we can make the UK position on this matter know to the RG65 ICA and the IRSA
If you are purely a DF65 sailor, you might think that these changes wouldn't affect you, but if you wanted to sail in an RG65 regatta in the future it could affect the eligibility of you and your boat to race. It is important that everybody make their opinion known.
These votes are needed by 25th June at the latest so our response can be sent to the RG65 ICA.
Link to voting form here. IRSA Ballot.
Please take the time to read all the information and vote as this could affect the way the class is run in future.
RG65 UK NCA
Jun 17, 2016, 1:46:18 PM6/17/16
to RG-65 UK
Dear RG 65 Skipper, Dear Mark,
I would like to give some comments on your post concerning the actual ballot.
One initial reason for the IRSA TC action comes amongst others from the interest of German DSV (WS member) to have a class rule according to IRSA standards for RG65. Such rules exist for the other classes IOM, M and 10 Rater which are integrated in the RC-Yachting organization of DSV.
From the beginning it was the plan of the IRSA TC to involve the RG 65 ICA via Fredo Vollmer, its chairman. Immediately after finishing of a first draft I contacted Fredo.
Gerd wrote on 160204 : For a first discussion within the TC I made a draft of the rule oriented on the formal standards of IRSA /WS. Within the TC the discussion has started. However all TC members attach great importance on the participation of the international RG community.
Fredo wrote on 160204 : This action we/I do appreciate very much. Thank you! And of course you can count with my cooperation!
Within the following months we exchanged comments on the drafted rules.
Actually Fredo informed me that he is waiting for further comments from the ICA up to the 19th of June.
I hope that the very good discussion on the drafted rule will proceed. The contact with Fredo was very kind and respectful.
I am convinced that it is possible to bring nearly all interest of the skippers together, those who want to sail RG65 world championships and those who want to sail their local events.
I beg you not to close the door. Perhaps there is something wonderful behind !
Gerd
(Gerd Mentges GER 01)
PS : Answers concerning the open questions :
Advantages:
The most important advantage is that you will be a member of the global community of sailors who organizes everything for large and small RC-yachts.
The regulations are designed in a way that uniform conditions exist throughout the world and this provides racing on a uniform and well known basis.
It's always good when there is only one organization for a sport. All necessary regulations as Racing rules of Sailing, Heat Management System, Equipment Rules od Sailing or the standard of measurement rules are the same one and there are institutional committees responsible for the development of this areas.
Today it is sometimes difficult to find people who are willing to work as an official. One organization as IRSA supports this task.
In the real world you sometimes have disputes on the right way to choose. It is more easy to solve such problems if all participants of such a discussion have a bracket which holds the things together. A good settled organization can absorb situations where somebody quits his job, a situation which we all know very well.
In Germany we see that the organization with IRSA and DSV (national authority or DMN) makes it easier to find regatta areas. Lakes with the infrastructure of a "big" sailing club.
Restrictions:
Most of the restrictions are not caused by IRSA but by the need to have regulations for the exercise of our sport. There are Racing Rules of Sailing, Measurement Rules guidelines for the conduct of international championships and so on. Many of these rules or better parts of them the “normal” sailor sees as unnecessary. However my experience shows that if you omit something it will last only few years and you have them again. One has to recognize that the current rules have a development history and there are mainly good reasons why they exist.
One example of a restriction. What is to do if you have 200 sailors which are interested in attending a RG World Championship. Impossible ? I say no, this class is a wonderful class with many advantages and can spread furthermore. IRSA has developed a solution for such a situation. Writing this I see that this is no restriction to my understanding, it is a benfit.
It is a little bit difficult for me to find restrictions. Perhaps on the national basis, which is in fact not the field of IRSA. Especially for the interests of some parts of the RG65 community the national authority has to find solutions to avoid restrictions. As one part of my heart is for RG65 – the other for 10 rater - I worked in 2015 for a solution for the RG65 community in Germany to feel well under the umbrella of DSV.
This solution brought the RG community to 80 % pro DSV coming from 80 % against. The solution written in German language you can find at the dropbox mentioned above by Mark. Perhaps I can find some time to translate it. Three examples from that solution : Only for National Championships your need a measurement certificate. For so called “friendship sailing regattas” and especially for RG 65 sailor also for “ranking sailing regattas” you must not be a member of DSV. Touching marks is allowed at RG 65 regattas. I mention this point under restrictions but it is more a description how to solve restrictions.
Perhaps new measurement forms, currently under development together with RG65 ICA, could be seen as a restriction. Preparing the measurement forms by yourself I see as normal way. The task of an official measurer is to control it. With possible IRSA measurement forms each sailor has only to fill in some measurements. You have not to consider, which way of measurement you use whether triangle or trapezoidal rule etc. . There will be an excel spreadsheet which does any calculation for you if you have excel available. Is that a really a restriction ?
Costs:
IRSA currently does not collect any fee. Only continental or world championships need an entry fee based on the calculation of the local organizers.
(Please excuse bad English, I did my very best)
I would like to give some comments on your post concerning the actual ballot.
One initial reason for the IRSA TC action comes amongst others from the interest of German DSV (WS member) to have a class rule according to IRSA standards for RG65. Such rules exist for the other classes IOM, M and 10 Rater which are integrated in the RC-Yachting organization of DSV.
From the beginning it was the plan of the IRSA TC to involve the RG 65 ICA via Fredo Vollmer, its chairman. Immediately after finishing of a first draft I contacted Fredo.
Gerd wrote on 160204 : For a first discussion within the TC I made a draft of the rule oriented on the formal standards of IRSA /WS. Within the TC the discussion has started. However all TC members attach great importance on the participation of the international RG community.
Fredo wrote on 160204 : This action we/I do appreciate very much. Thank you! And of course you can count with my cooperation!
Within the following months we exchanged comments on the drafted rules.
Actually Fredo informed me that he is waiting for further comments from the ICA up to the 19th of June.
I hope that the very good discussion on the drafted rule will proceed. The contact with Fredo was very kind and respectful.
I am convinced that it is possible to bring nearly all interest of the skippers together, those who want to sail RG65 world championships and those who want to sail their local events.
I beg you not to close the door. Perhaps there is something wonderful behind !
Gerd
(Gerd Mentges GER 01)
PS : Answers concerning the open questions :
Advantages:
The most important advantage is that you will be a member of the global community of sailors who organizes everything for large and small RC-yachts.
The regulations are designed in a way that uniform conditions exist throughout the world and this provides racing on a uniform and well known basis.
It's always good when there is only one organization for a sport. All necessary regulations as Racing rules of Sailing, Heat Management System, Equipment Rules od Sailing or the standard of measurement rules are the same one and there are institutional committees responsible for the development of this areas.
Today it is sometimes difficult to find people who are willing to work as an official. One organization as IRSA supports this task.
In the real world you sometimes have disputes on the right way to choose. It is more easy to solve such problems if all participants of such a discussion have a bracket which holds the things together. A good settled organization can absorb situations where somebody quits his job, a situation which we all know very well.
In Germany we see that the organization with IRSA and DSV (national authority or DMN) makes it easier to find regatta areas. Lakes with the infrastructure of a "big" sailing club.
Restrictions:
Most of the restrictions are not caused by IRSA but by the need to have regulations for the exercise of our sport. There are Racing Rules of Sailing, Measurement Rules guidelines for the conduct of international championships and so on. Many of these rules or better parts of them the “normal” sailor sees as unnecessary. However my experience shows that if you omit something it will last only few years and you have them again. One has to recognize that the current rules have a development history and there are mainly good reasons why they exist.
One example of a restriction. What is to do if you have 200 sailors which are interested in attending a RG World Championship. Impossible ? I say no, this class is a wonderful class with many advantages and can spread furthermore. IRSA has developed a solution for such a situation. Writing this I see that this is no restriction to my understanding, it is a benfit.
It is a little bit difficult for me to find restrictions. Perhaps on the national basis, which is in fact not the field of IRSA. Especially for the interests of some parts of the RG65 community the national authority has to find solutions to avoid restrictions. As one part of my heart is for RG65 – the other for 10 rater - I worked in 2015 for a solution for the RG65 community in Germany to feel well under the umbrella of DSV.
This solution brought the RG community to 80 % pro DSV coming from 80 % against. The solution written in German language you can find at the dropbox mentioned above by Mark. Perhaps I can find some time to translate it. Three examples from that solution : Only for National Championships your need a measurement certificate. For so called “friendship sailing regattas” and especially for RG 65 sailor also for “ranking sailing regattas” you must not be a member of DSV. Touching marks is allowed at RG 65 regattas. I mention this point under restrictions but it is more a description how to solve restrictions.
Perhaps new measurement forms, currently under development together with RG65 ICA, could be seen as a restriction. Preparing the measurement forms by yourself I see as normal way. The task of an official measurer is to control it. With possible IRSA measurement forms each sailor has only to fill in some measurements. You have not to consider, which way of measurement you use whether triangle or trapezoidal rule etc. . There will be an excel spreadsheet which does any calculation for you if you have excel available. Is that a really a restriction ?
Costs:
IRSA currently does not collect any fee. Only continental or world championships need an entry fee based on the calculation of the local organizers.
(Please excuse bad English, I did my very best)
RG65 UK NCA
Jun 17, 2016, 1:47:21 PM6/17/16
to RG-65 UK
Gerd, thank you for your comments.
Unfortunately, unlike your experience in Germany, I don't think there is significant call in the UK for the class rules to be changed to meet the IRSA standards. This was not a requirement for affiliation to the MYA nor has it stopped the development of the class.
Can I just remind people that it was Fredo who asked for this ballot even if he may initially have been supportive of the IRSAs plans. The main points of contention appear to be:
1) Changes to the basic rule set that restrict the open development nature of the class.
2) Comments for the IRSA TC along the line of "there will be a 65cm International class whether the RG65 ICA want it or not".
The ballot of UK RG65 NCA members currently stands at
Option 1 - 1 Vote
Option 2 - 47 Votes
For a US/international take on this issue (both the US and Chilean NCAs are also holding ballots) please look at this thread on RcGroups http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2673977
Please vote if you have not already and and please make anybody you think may be eligible aware.
Comments received with the UK votes so far are attached below
---
Perhaps when IRSA are more diplomatic and approach us properly then a proper discussion can start. This would make more sense than them saying join us or else! Even at this stage it is hard to see what they can offer us. We can still hold international meetings if that's what members want.
---
Down with IRSA, miserable bunch that they are! Long live the RG65 as we know it!!
---
It is for the RG65 Class to decide on it future, not any other association or body to decide there future without consent.
---
I object to anyone other than the invested owners (of any class) deciding or implementing change. I don't see most of the proposed changes as bad, but without consultation they can not be imposed without some open dialogue with owners.
I believe that under the right conditions (as with IOMICA) that the RG65 would grow through joining IRSA and be seen as a class in its own right rather than a 'novelty' by many. International RG65 events in recent years have not been well supported and there seems little to no structure within the International and National associations. The class has allowed itself to be used for commercial purposes, only for many new owners to have split off to a splinter class and not return to RG65 racing knowing they are not on a level playing field, despite what was told. This split has hurt and reduced what was an emerging class here in the UK after initial growth to a state of treading water on both fronts.
In short the RG65 class needs to stand up for itself and tell IRSA no to being overrun, but get its house in order if it wants to be a stand alone class and grow to more than a bit of fun on the side when we are all not racing our other boats. If we don't then IRSA will be its best form of survival, longevity and avenue for growth outside of the small pockets of nations it is currently in.
If we want to go it alone, then there is a lot of work to be done to ensure those that step in and out won't dump it the minute the next fad comes along...
---
This looks like an uncalled for and unnecessary land grab on a successful sailing authority by World Sailing/IRSA.
---
I would support the RG65 becoming and IRSA International Class provided it was in conjunction with and input from the current RG65 Class Association skippers.
---
If we want to be a truly recognised International class then I believe that we have to line up alongside the other International classes and come under IRSA guidance. Bringing the RG65 rules format into line with other classes I see as a totally logical and worthwhile move whilst proper measurement procedures can only be an advantage to the class and remove any possibility of errors in measurement causing embarrassment (or worse) at major events.
---
This is Hobson choice for me really so I vote for the Devil I know! Particularly in light of their recent high handedness or IRSA with regard to the A, Marblehead and 10 Rater classes.
There is a third option not given here which would be to maintain a dialogue with IRSA and try to influence the rule manufacture process within IRSA although ultimately this might not have any desired effect.
Thank god IRSA hasn't turned it's attention to the Footy Class!
---
Pay fees for no benefits - no thanks.
---
I object to IRSA hijacking the RG65 class in what appears to be a simple case of empire building. This class has worked well for many years as it is. If it's not broken why do they think it needs fixing.
Unfortunately, unlike your experience in Germany, I don't think there is significant call in the UK for the class rules to be changed to meet the IRSA standards. This was not a requirement for affiliation to the MYA nor has it stopped the development of the class.
Can I just remind people that it was Fredo who asked for this ballot even if he may initially have been supportive of the IRSAs plans. The main points of contention appear to be:
1) Changes to the basic rule set that restrict the open development nature of the class.
2) Comments for the IRSA TC along the line of "there will be a 65cm International class whether the RG65 ICA want it or not".
The ballot of UK RG65 NCA members currently stands at
Option 1 - 1 Vote
Option 2 - 47 Votes
For a US/international take on this issue (both the US and Chilean NCAs are also holding ballots) please look at this thread on RcGroups http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2673977
Please vote if you have not already and and please make anybody you think may be eligible aware.
Comments received with the UK votes so far are attached below
---
Perhaps when IRSA are more diplomatic and approach us properly then a proper discussion can start. This would make more sense than them saying join us or else! Even at this stage it is hard to see what they can offer us. We can still hold international meetings if that's what members want.
---
Down with IRSA, miserable bunch that they are! Long live the RG65 as we know it!!
---
It is for the RG65 Class to decide on it future, not any other association or body to decide there future without consent.
---
I object to anyone other than the invested owners (of any class) deciding or implementing change. I don't see most of the proposed changes as bad, but without consultation they can not be imposed without some open dialogue with owners.
I believe that under the right conditions (as with IOMICA) that the RG65 would grow through joining IRSA and be seen as a class in its own right rather than a 'novelty' by many. International RG65 events in recent years have not been well supported and there seems little to no structure within the International and National associations. The class has allowed itself to be used for commercial purposes, only for many new owners to have split off to a splinter class and not return to RG65 racing knowing they are not on a level playing field, despite what was told. This split has hurt and reduced what was an emerging class here in the UK after initial growth to a state of treading water on both fronts.
In short the RG65 class needs to stand up for itself and tell IRSA no to being overrun, but get its house in order if it wants to be a stand alone class and grow to more than a bit of fun on the side when we are all not racing our other boats. If we don't then IRSA will be its best form of survival, longevity and avenue for growth outside of the small pockets of nations it is currently in.
If we want to go it alone, then there is a lot of work to be done to ensure those that step in and out won't dump it the minute the next fad comes along...
---
This looks like an uncalled for and unnecessary land grab on a successful sailing authority by World Sailing/IRSA.
---
I would support the RG65 becoming and IRSA International Class provided it was in conjunction with and input from the current RG65 Class Association skippers.
---
If we want to be a truly recognised International class then I believe that we have to line up alongside the other International classes and come under IRSA guidance. Bringing the RG65 rules format into line with other classes I see as a totally logical and worthwhile move whilst proper measurement procedures can only be an advantage to the class and remove any possibility of errors in measurement causing embarrassment (or worse) at major events.
---
This is Hobson choice for me really so I vote for the Devil I know! Particularly in light of their recent high handedness or IRSA with regard to the A, Marblehead and 10 Rater classes.
There is a third option not given here which would be to maintain a dialogue with IRSA and try to influence the rule manufacture process within IRSA although ultimately this might not have any desired effect.
Thank god IRSA hasn't turned it's attention to the Footy Class!
---
Pay fees for no benefits - no thanks.
---
I object to IRSA hijacking the RG65 class in what appears to be a simple case of empire building. This class has worked well for many years as it is. If it's not broken why do they think it needs fixing.
RG65 UK NCA
Jun 24, 2016, 4:37:51 PM6/24/16
to RG-65 UK
Thank you to all who took the time to take part.
The final result is:
Option 1 - 5 Votes
Option 2 - 122 Votes
Option 2 - 122 Votes
This will be passed on to the RG65 ICA so they can make our position known to the IRSA.
More comments received at attached below.
I object to IRSA hijacking the RG65 class in what appears to be a simple case of empire building. This class has worked well for many years as it is. If it's not broken why do they think it needs fixing.
Whilst I don't agree with the IRSA imposing a new set of rules on the class without consultation (allegedly) I do feel that adopting the class would be a good way to go in the future. We don't have a strong class in this country, the nationals were propped up by a strong foreign entry and for a good, cheap kitchen table homebuild class I would be asking why this class is stagnant or even declining in this country. The proposed changes to the class rules are quit sensible and would have little effect to the class or scope of development. By becoming affiliated the class would not be obliged to hold World championships the racing format could still be as the owners want similar to the IOM's where we have both European and world champs as well as international competitions like the Malta open.
My vote is on the basis of no prior communication with those affected.
The proposal may well be good in the long run, but our NCA should have been consulted right at the beginning. Also, before we are to vote 'yes', we need to have had the negotiation on what this means.
We're doing fine as we are!
Who requested IRSA intervention ? Re. "World & championship". Does the IRSA own the copyright. If not , why can't the R. G. 65 call an event a "World Championship ? If the IRSA wishes to take an interest & I am sure if they ask politely they will be allowed to spectate. Should the R.G. 65 Association wish to avail themselves of IRSA expertise , the IRSA may, following invitation, wish to tender for the task.No doubt the R G Association will wish to set the parameters.
The RG65 class has always appealed because of its relative simplicity, flexibility and low cost - particularly for newcomers. It allows you to develop and progress within the hobby as experience is gained in a less formal and friendly environment. Long may it remain this way!
Don't get sucked in by them and keep it as is, there is nothing against calling the world champs "Global Champs" or World Series
I don't like interference by others when not invited . But open minded if IRSA can be brought onboard to represent us when they are told and accept present adopted rules already in place , I'm concerned class will loose present control to anonymous body .
I dont think we have anything to gain from joining WS/IRSA rules.
Why change a good thing that has been going for a number of years !!!!!!
Happy with current rules and representation, thanks.
I'm not against being an international class, but the proposed restrictions are too much
Can't vote for ISRA when the Technical Team Chairman has such conflicts of interest. Also the way the proposed rules for the A, 10R and M classes have been put together with whats looks like no input from the skippers or NCA's that actually sail the boats. Keep away from ISRA until they start to talk and listen to the skippers that sail the varying classes.
Absolutely horrid behaviour from the IRSA.
Although the IRSA has a high ended attitude and it could have been handled better, some of the proposals like proper sail measurement have been a concern of mine right from the outset of the class in the UK, and is why I'm not active in other than club competitions. The way in which the UK manages their affairs has also been a problem in the past, as you will recall! Better the devil you know than the devil you don't.
At present I sail a DF 65 which has different rules to the RG 65. Due to this difference there is an argument that DF 65s would have to be excluded from an International Standard. Added to this DF 65s would not be competitive at RG 65 international events.
I have come to sailing in the last year, previously from Full size Gliding and model gliding competition. RG65 is development class, and one I can afford to play in. (The IOM class is an expensive rip off, and I have already sold mine). Tell IRSA, we have a set of rules, if they want to play RG65 then use ours. Should RG65 be taken over and IRSA rules become too onerous, then some one will start RG66 development class!....where does it stop....
If the position described in your letter is a fair summation of what had been going on then any vote against 'rolling over' should be accompanied by a protest directly to this controlling body. The actions they appear to have taken are arrogant, presumptuous and counter productive. Consider the position of a club skipper who has just completed an RG65 scrupulously in accord with all the measurements he has been given. Consider his reaction when he is told the craft he has spent moths building is out of class. His response will undoubtedly be of the 'get stuffed' variety" and he will carry on sailing regardless. Not an unfamiliar situation when it comes to the uneasy relationship between people who want to enjoy a hobby and an over-officious elite.
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