i have a very silly about operating systems question

[wifi goodboi]

hello there I am wifi I am 16 and have to ask whats z-system is, I have seen it on a lot of retro computer listings on tindie but every time I google it the only thing that comes up is IBM's website with server hardware I am assuming it is some sort of classic os but what was it used for and all that ya know being a Genz I don't know everything about retro hardware so try not to be too harsh on me xD

(yes I know I'm 16 and like retro gaming and computing odd but we all like what we what to like, do have to clarify cus I have been on a couple of retro hardware  forums and have had a couple of ppl be a bit unwelcoming eg.the typical why are you here your not form that era stuff sorry for going a bit off-topic) hope you guys can answer my question.

wifi.

[Anna Christina]

Hallo Wifi,

A Z-System is a kind of add-on to CP/M.

To clarify a bit: CP/M is a operating system (by Digital Research) for computers with a 8080, 8085 or Z80 processor.

Z-Systems offer some more functionality for programs, kind of "additional APIs" that programs can use. Z-Systems usually need a Z80 processor, as they use the additional functions of the Z80 (compared to the 8080 or 8085).

I know of the following Z-Systems:

- ZSDOS: this is a complete replacement for CP/M 2.2 that offers "some" functionality of a Z-System (and includes the full CP/M system)

- ZPM3: this is a replacement for CP/M 3, kind of "CP/M 3 + a basic Z-System, as far as I know (I haven't used it)

- ZCPR3: also a Z-System, but I don't know the differences to the other systems, as I haven't used it

- NZ-COM: this is a add-on for CP/M 2.2 which features a "full-blown" Z-System.

- Z3PLUS: this is a add-on for CP/M 3, comparable to NZ-COM

I've used ZSDOS, as it is included in RomWBW, but I noticed that it doesn't offer all the functionality that eg. the ZFILER file manager needs, so NZ-COM and Z3PLUS seem to offer more functions. 

Eg. you can configure your terminal type in NZ-COM or Z3PLUS, and all applications that are compatible with these Z-Systems don't need to be configured each on their own but can use the "global" terminal configuration.

Other functions of a Z-System are:

You can assign "LABELS" for your drive+user combinations, eg. if you define "C1:" as "DBASE:", you can go directly to user 1 of drive C by typing "DBASE:" (instead of C: and USER 1)

Also, you can use C1: to go directly to user 1 of drive C.

You can use eg. LSH as a "shell" to have a history for your commands, like in modern linux shells.

Using ARUNZ, you can define aliases for commands that make life easier.

So, to sum it up: Z-System is a more comfortable way to use CP/M, and if you have some applications that take advantage of it, it is really great :)

If you have further questions, just ask :)

Regards,

Anna

PS. my Z80 computer (a RC2014) does also have WiFi (and Bluetooth) :)

[wifi goodboi]

I am currently thinking of getting the new sc131 as a first computer kit

[Richard Deane]

SC131 is excellent -  read up about romwbw on github, it contains several flavours of OS - CP/Mv2.2 CP/Mv3 (also known as CP/M Plus) ZSDOS, you can boot into any to decide which you like.

You can also burn the ROM in situ on sc131 to run the latest romwbw, but be sure you understand first because if you burn a wrong image you would need another rom or a rom burner to get back running again.

Which country are you in? - this group is full of friendly people to assist.

Richard

[Steve Cousins]

SC131 is a good choice if your interest is mainly software. It is small, portable, and tidy.

If you also have an interest in the hardware and would like to add modules, then SC126 might be worth a look.

It is good to have young members in this group. If we don't attract young people this hobby has a limited shelf life - I expect most people here were born in the last century! 

[Mark T]

Before astronauts landed on the moon for most of us, and before sputnik for a few :)

Mark

[wifi goodboi]

why hello there steve is there any Linux type ports to any of your computers would be fun to like boot a classic version of the Linux kernel also I was thinking many on the sc131 they sell TTL to rs232 adapters quite cheaply I was wondering if it is possible to hook up one of those esp based modems to FTDI port b or Mabey a sound card or rs232 graphics card just thinking of things we could do with upgrade wise for the sc131 do correct me if I am wrong tho

[wifi goodboi]

I'm in the United Kingdom

[Anna Christina]

Am Dienstag, 28. April 2020 01:02:44 UTC+2 schrieb Mark T:

Hi Mark,

Before astronauts landed on the moon for most of us, and before sputnik for a few :)

But some are from Jimmy Carter's presidential period :)

Or in other words: From before Chernobyl :)

Regards,

Anna

[Anna Christina]

Am Dienstag, 28. April 2020 10:40:15 UTC+2 schrieb wifi goodboi:

Hi Wifi,

just a small request: Could you please try to read your posts one time before sending? They are not the easiest to read as they seem to be written just as you would talk to someone. Thank you!

why hello there steve is there any Linux type ports to any of your computers would be fun to like boot a classic version of the Linux kernel

As Linux is written for processors with 32 bits (and more), using "Linux" is not possible on a Z80 based machine, as a Z80 processor is "only" an 8 bit machine, and thus can only address 64k RAM at one time - and the smallest Linux kernel is larger than that :)

But there is FUZIX, a small 8 bit UNIX-like system which runs on a Z80 machine, see: http://fuzix.org/

Alan Cox is the author and also active in this group.

 

also I was thinking many on the sc131 they sell TTL to rs232 adapters quite cheaply I was wondering if it is possible to hook up one of those esp based modems to FTDI port b or Mabey a sound card or rs232 graphics card just thinking of things we could do with upgrade wise for the sc131 do correct me if I am wrong tho

You can attach an ESP-based modem to a RC2014 or SC126/SC130/SC131.

There is also a ESP8266 extension module for the RC2014, so you wouldn't need an extra TTL-RS232 adapter, see:

https://www.tindie.com/products/semachthemonkey/esp8266-wifi-module-for-rc2014/

But it is possible to use a ready-made WiFi-modem with a RS232 connector together with a 5V (!) TTL-RS232 adapter.

As sound card, there is the YM/AY sound card module: https://www.tindie.com/products/semachthemonkey/ym2149-sound-card-for-rc2014-retro-computer/

It is not a "serial" card, but attaches to the RC2014 bus.

There are also graphics cards available, but I don't have any experience with them, as I "only" use the VT100 terminal module, see: https://www.tindie.com/products/maccasoft/vga-serial-terminal-kit-for-rc2014/

This way, I make my RC2014 computer a "real" stand-alone computer with its own display and keyboard (attached to this module).

Please note that these extension modules require the RC2014 bus and thus don't work with the small SC131 but require the bigger SC130 or SC126 and, if you use several of these modules, maybe a bus extension.

Regards,

Anna

[wifi goodboi]

yes sorry about the hard to read stuff I tend to treat text chats like a normal convo u sorta gotta add ur own punctuation I tend to struggle a bit with grammar

[wifi goodboi]

also, I would like to correct myself on the soundcard I was thinking of it happens to be parallel port-based see here for more info
(edit: it also happens to be for 486 or dos based pcs)

On Monday, 27 April 2020 09:43:00 UTC+1, wifi goodboi wrote:

[wifi goodboi]

I was also looking at this one earlier looks pretty interesting  sadly not much out for it yet documentation or accessory wise but looks interesting

On Monday, 27 April 2020 09:43:00 UTC+1, wifi goodboi wrote:

[Philip Zembrod]

Hi Wifi,

may I second Anna's request? May I also point out that email is not a text chat?

And another tip from 35+ years of programming: A good grasp of human language is actually a key skill for making good software. So it's worth investing in and practicing. :-)

Cheers

/Philip

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[wifi goodboi]

this is a forum not an email client like Gmail 

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to retro...@googlegroups.com.

[Anna Christina]

Am Dienstag, 28. April 2020 14:17:53 UTC+2 schrieb wifi goodboi:

Hallo Wifi,

this is a forum not an email client like Gmail 

I'm sorry, but *you* came into this group after everyone else already has been here - and you want to tell us what this is?

Just think about, if that is reasonable.

And please just read how everyone else is writing messages here and please adapt to the style.

If you want to keep getting nice answers to your questions - no problem, but behave as everyone else.

Thank you very much.

Regards,

Anna

[wifi goodboi]

hay no need to get toxic over our different ways of talking as I said I am sorry that I struggle with grammar that is your issue if u don't like it go talk to an admin about it but I'm sure they will be fine with the way I am communicating cus currently you are not being very welcoming nor very nice this is 2020 everyone is different if u cant accept that oh well you're loss I suppose (plus what is the point in correcting me if u got what I mean please explain) nor is it my fault nor is it an issue that I talk informally 

[Bill Shen]

This is an international forum. For many, myself included, English is not our native language, so we do try harder to write clearly. Perhaps that is just the problem of the non-English speakers, maybe, but if we don't understand you, we can't help you.
Bill

[wifi goodboi]

Nah bill it just the way I'm typing they r complaining about "because it's not formal" it's not allowed I'm actually using Grammarly right now so that gets most of the spelling issues but sadly I don't have premium so it doesn't do formatting and punctuation so that's the issue, I tend to get a bit blocky with my messages but other than that and punctuation it's fine but if I had premium it would fix the punctuation issues

[wifi goodboi]

yet another question here just wondering what the smallest most upgradeable retro computer kit is either m68k, z80 z180 that only uses through-hole soldering because I have issues with coordination I have done many soldering kits before example a motor controller, ac to dc PSU and a couple blinkers

[wifi goodboi]

is it just me or am i being ignored

[Steve Cousins]

Hi Wifi

As far as I can see the only unanswered question you have asked was about an hour ago. One hour is hardly being ignored.

You asked for a small upgradeable system with through-hole components. I think it is very sensible to start with something manageable. I designed SC114 SBC/motherboard for that very purpose.

Steve

[wifi goodboi]

what about ronwbw support

[Michael Dadswell]

Wifi,

On the Z80/Z180 front I would say the SC126  has upgrade possibilities in terms of adding cards as the motherboard is extendable. It's all through-hole and comes with both the Small Computer Monitor Rom and RomWBW, Real Time Clock 512k ram and SD card. It's very good value. The RC2014 Pro  can be upgraded by adding a 512k Ram/Rom card, CP/M etc. - that's a Z80 system.  You could take a look at https://smallcomputercentral.wordpress.com/ and https://rc2014.co.uk/ if you've not already done so. Karlab at https://www.z80.no/ also does some very good designs as well. 

Not sure about m68k, but I see there is a new kit on Tindie https://www.tindie.com/products/rosco/rosco-m68k-revision-1/ that looks interesting.

/Mike

[wifi goodboi]

my one and the only issue is I do not yet have a soldering iron

[Mark T]

As you said yourself earlier, this is a forum not an email, but also not a chat app or twitter. Don’t assume that if you don’t get a reply within an hour that you are being ignored. Many are on a different time zone.

I think to make useful suggestions of expandable systems we would probably need some idea of what you are looking for in a system. Also if you have built only from kits or can build from just a pcb and collect the components based only on a schematic and write your own software to talk to those modules.

The RC2014 system may be a good starter system. Probably best to pick one based on romwbw as this has more support for adding modules and a choice between z80 or z180. Other processors are possible, but not really build, plug and play, as not so much software available.

Sc-131 is nice as a complete cased unit, but if you want to play with expansion you might be better with sc-126 or sc-130 and then add a modular backplane when you need more slots. Not so easy to build these into a case but there have been a few examples posted in the forum.

Depending on your interests you might also want to look at busraider by rob dobson, but I’m not sure if there is a complete kit to build a system or if you would need to collect boards from a few different sources.

Mark

[Mark T]

You’ll need a soldering iron unless you plan on using solderless breadboards. Maybe look for a cheap one with temperature control, i got mine from amazon and still seems to be working ok, just need to be careful not to accidentally change the temperature setting.

Mark

[Philip Zembrod]

Hi Wifi,

as far as I am aware there's no such thing as premium in Google groups, so formatting has nothing to do with that.

You may want to try reading this through Gmail; it works great.

For there you are mistaken: This IS Gmail, at least for me, and I dare guess for a few more, too.

Cheers

/Philip

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[wifi goodboi]

I was on about premium Grammarly, I also prefer using google groups web app its a bit better with the layout

On Tuesday, 28 April 2020 18:18:43 UTC+1, Philip Zembrod wrote:

Hi Wifi,

as far as I am aware there's no such thing as premium in Google groups, so formatting has nothing to do with that.

You may want to try reading this through Gmail; it works great.

For there you are mistaken: This IS Gmail, at least for me, and I dare guess for a few more, too.

Cheers

/Philip

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 at 15:38, wifi goodboi <martymartin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Nah bill it just the way I'm typing they r complaining about "because it's not formal" it's not allowed I'm actually using Grammarly right now so that gets most of the spelling issues but sadly I don't have premium so it doesn't do formatting and punctuation so that's the issue, I tend to get a bit blocky with my messages but other than that and punctuation it's fine but if I had premium it would fix the punctuation issues

On Tuesday, 28 April 2020 14:30:11 UTC+1, Bill Shen wrote:

This is an international forum.  For many, myself included, English is not our native language, so we do try harder to write clearly.  Perhaps that is just the problem of the non-English speakers, maybe, but if we don't understand you, we can't help you.
  Bill

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[wifi goodboi]

I'm currently looking at this one 

[Philip Zembrod]

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 at 19:25, wifi goodboi <martymartin...@gmail.com> wrote:

I was on about premium Grammarly

Ah, sorry, misread there. My bad.

Btw, what would help more than punctuation would be the occasional line break after a sentence.

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[wifi goodboi]

yes 1 hr is being ignored if you are used to instant messaging I'm not used to waiting an hour for a reply so I am a bit impatient sorry if I seemed a bit rude

On Tuesday, 28 April 2020 17:06:40 UTC+1, Steve Cousins wrote:

[wifi goodboi]

yea Grammarly doesn't do that ill have to teach myself that one xD

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/retro-comp/7bc30c6b-d4e0-4415-a3c7-16d1f6fca4fd%40googlegroups.com.

[wifi goodboi]

On Tuesday, 28 April 2020 18:33:59 UTC+1, wifi goodboi wrote:

yes 1 hr is being ignored if you are used to instant messaging I'm not used to waiting an hour for a reply so I am a bit impatient sorry if I seemed a bit rude

    (edit: just a small request for you if possible could u send me a size comparison btween all your z180 boards)

[Steve Cousins]

The sizes of each of my Z180 systems is stated on my website on the Description page for each design.

Steve

[wifi goodboi]

no as in a picture of all the boards next to each other so I can see the actual size difference between them all because I don't have a ruler

[Blane Dabney]

I think at least some of the punctuation and grammar push-back you
might be getting may stem from what Google Groups REALLY is.  You call
it a forum, and while that's technically true, it was originally the
replacement for the Deja News Usenet service, and in fact still serves
as a Usenet gateway for folks that have been using newsgroups for
decades but don't feel like trying to use antiquated Usenet clients.
Many, many people on Google Groups have been using newsgroups and the
Internet since its inception, so they're an... eccentric bunch.

Quite a few of us (probably the vast majority) only access it through
Gmail, so these threads are really just e-mail threads for us.  Thus,
we'll be mostly slow to respond, tend to take our time crafting
well-written messages, and don't like having to take extra time to
parse out the meaning of an abbreviated run-on sentence.  I don't
personally have an issue with it, but I just thought I'd point out one
of the reasons for the responses you're getting.

[wifi goodboi]

thanks for the insight and also for seeing my side of things 

[Steve Cousins]

Picture attached

[wifi goodboi]

Oki next question is it possible to pop a drop-in replacement for the ocilator  to make the chip into 33mhz on the sc131

[Steve Cousins]

You could but the baud rates will be all wrong with exiting software that assumes 18 Mhz. Also, you would probably need to set extra wait state(s) to meet memory chip access times. These are software selectable so you'd need to make minor modifications to the firmware.

The Z180 has a software selectable internal clock doubler. This would overclock the CPU to 36 MHz, With additional wait states this MIGHT work. The baud rates will then be exactly double hat would otherwise be the case.

Steve

[wifi goodboi]

ah thanks for the reply seems interesting but when I first saw the sc131 I was like aww cute  because I like small computers but I might just buy one when I have the money for the soldering stuff it will make a great little first computer kit then if I enjoy it I might upgrade to the sc126

[wifi goodboi]

now I have seen the bus rider I might just get the sc126 btw I have done a couple of kits before just not computer kits  so I have some soldering experience I just did it on a electronics course

[Steve Cousins]

I don't know if BusRaider is compatible with SC126 or not. Perhaps someone can answer that?

Steve

[Mark T]

I bought a cheaper temperature controlled soldering iron a few years ago, 2017, still works quite well and has a finer tip available in the set, also used to solder a few tssop smd ICs. Same one no longer available but similar to this:

https://www.amazon.ca/Soldering-Upgraded-Adjustable-Temperature-Rarlight/dp/B07RLM4M97/ref=sr_1_28?keywords=Soldering+iron&qid=1588100926&refinements=p_85%3A5690392011&rnid=5690384011&rps=1&sr=8-28&swrs=238CA7D0E885748D81777B8056CA4D3A

I think z180 does not need 36mhz crystal, has a frequency doubler built in. Steve or one of the other guys that has z180 running would probably be better to confirm the set up required.

Mark

[Blane Dabney]

The SC126 may need a similar mod as what was done to get it to work with the SC111: https://robdobson.com/2019/10/z180-50mhz-with-the-busraider/

[Mark T]

Interesting link but I don’t think I would recommend the bus raider for a z180 system for someone new to retro computers. Maybe something to consider after building up experience with an SC126, then adding some other cards, maybe sound or a video card.

If the bus raider is of interest it might be better to start with z80. Anyone have any suggestions for a base bus raider system? Or a starter system that could be upgraded to a busraider system? Bearing in mind that a new starter probably doesn’t have access to a prom programmer but maybe want an upgrade path that includes some of the old computer games.

Mark

[wifi goodboi]

the only issue is I can only buy kits that ship from the UK if I forgot to say that earlier

[Tom Storey]

On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 at 04:56, wifi goodboi <martymartin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Oki next question is it possible to pop a drop-in replacement for the ocilator  to make the chip into 33mhz on the sc131

Well, you aren't going to be running crysis or whatever it is the kiddies play these days, so running it at uber MHz isn't really going to get you much. 18MHz on an 8 bit system is screaming. I tend to design all of my stuff to run under 10MHz and even then I struggle to use all of the power I have available. You will find it goes a long way for what it is capable of doing.

... Unless, of course, you have specific requirements, then it would be useful to mention those and people might be able to direct you towards a better system to use. If it's just for "my first retro computer", then anything you can buy today will be a good platform to get started on, and from using that you will discover what you really need or want.

When you think of old systems like the Commodore 64 or the Speccy, they were running at low single digit MHz..!

[wifi goodboi]

all I really expect is GB GBC if colour is a thing style stuff lets just say I'm easily  shocked by small computers
would quite like a pi zero for HDMI out  in there and maybe an esp for web access  (by web access I mean I can go into my chrome and enter the IP to get a wireless terminal away for storing things eg sd or cf card, yes I have seen these things done do correct me if I am wrong tho

[wifi goodboi]

hmm soldering iron A or soldering iron B.

by the way, solder is like 8 quid for a little tube of it

a multimeter is 28 quid

and side cutter is 7.30 quid

that's basically all I would need right?

On Monday, 27 April 2020 09:43:00 UTC+1, wifi goodboi wrote:

hello there I am wifi I am 16 and have to ask whats z-system is, I have seen it on a lot of retro computer listings on tindie but every time I google it the only thing that comes up is IBM's website with server hardware I am assuming it is some sort of classic os but what was it used for and all that ya know being a Genz I don't know everything about retro hardware so try not to be too harsh on me xD

(yes I know I'm 16 and like retro gaming and computing odd but we all like what we what to like, do have to clarify cus I have been on a couple of retro hardware  forums and have had a couple of ppl be a bit unwelcoming eg.the typical why are you here your not form that era stuff sorry for going a bit off-topic) hope you guys can answer my question.

wifi.

[Alan Cox]

On Wednesday, 29 April 2020 11:28:58 UTC+1, wifi goodboi wrote:

hmm soldering iron A or soldering iron B.

by the way, solder is like 8 quid for a little tube of it

a multimeter is 28 quid

and side cutter is 7.30 quid

that's basically all I would need right?

> by the way, solder is like 8 quid for a little tube of it

Make sure you get 60/40 tin/lead solder not the lead free stuff when
you are hand soldering. It's about a third of that price direct from
China off ebay if you don't need it particularly soon.

> a multimeter is 28 quid

Fairly essential. Look for one with a frequency meter as well, that is
surprisingly useful for working out what is going on with a
misbehaving board.

> and side cutter is 7.30 quid

And a decent pair should last a lifetime. I think I've broken one set
of Xuron cutters in 20 years, and that was my old pair that by then
was being abused for all sorts of stuff it shouldn't have.

> that's basically all I would need right?

Other than that my usual kit includes
- A pair of fairly fine nosed pliers
- A lump of blutack (for holding awkward things in place)
- Some antistatic foam pieces for sticking components on whilst
working (all scavenged from the boxes kits and parts came in)
- A magnifier lamp (cos I'm getting old and I can't see all the stuff
as well as I used to)
- A random piece of old metal for keeping parts of things cool when
doing things like unsoldering
- A bitscope micro

Of those the bitscope is definitely a luxury unless you are designing
boards, the magnifier lamp depends on your eyesight. Except for the
pliers the other bits ought to be free. I suspect we all have random
repurposed junk we use for stuff.

Alan

[wifi goodboi]

Leaded solder is toxic you know so I would rather use unleaded as it is not as bad and I can only buy from the UK

[Denis Hennessy]

Both the TS80 and TS100 are good irons but I'd recommend you get a spade-style tip rather than the default conical one.

[wifi goodboi]

what's the difference exactly I usually use a conical tip at my electronics course

[Steve Roberts]

Hiya

Lead/Tin solder has been used for decades (almost a century) - it is much easier to use and is still the default for hobbyists. You just need a well ventilated area, such as required when using any solvent/glue, or a fan/filter. Unleaded has steeper learning curve to get satisfactory joints.If you are using any 1980's technology then it will be leaded. NASA and many military systems still use leaded solder for reliability.

Cheers

Steve

[wifi goodboi]

I have used unleaded I'm actually used to unleaded

[wifi goodboi]

but I might try tin if I can get some from the UK

[wifi goodboi]

hmm yes tin solder is a lot cheaper I found this one for 3.10 quid 

[Blane Dabney]

Tin is a main component of lead and lead-free solder (Most lead-free solders are Tin/Silver/Copper).  The primary health concern when soldering isn't actually the lead (wash your hands after using it, you're fine), it's the flux.  When heated, most fluxes release a toxic fume containing many aldehydes, such as formaldehyde, acetaldehyde, or malonaldehyde, which are all carcinogenic.  Lead-free solder requires more flux to wet and flow properly, and more heat.  I used strictly lead-free solder when I first started, and I had nothing but trouble with it, especially on poorly-made PCBs with badly glued traces.  After I switched to 60/40 lead solder (no rosin core) and separately applied flux paste (I recommend the MG chemicals no clean paste that comes in the syringe), soldering became a breeze.  The only time I ever run into trouble now is when I have to desolder something that's been attached with lead-free solder :P

Even if you do use "no clean" flux paste, I still recommend cleaning it off with 99% isopropyl alcohol.  The residue is really sticky and gross to touch, even if it won't damage the components over time.

[Denis Hennessy]

A spade-type tip transfers heat a bit faster than a conical tip, at the expense of being slightly larger.

[wifi goodboi]

I have been using unleaded for the whole time I have been doing my soldering course and not had any issues apart from pesky ground plains

[wifi goodboi]

is this one a spade type

[wifi goodboi]

oh and I asked my mum and we already have a pair of side cutters, so I only need a multimeter  and a ts80 but ill probs go dor the one with the b02 tip because that's what I'm  use to

On Wednesday, 29 April 2020 12:13:49 UTC+1, Alan Cox wrote:

[wifi goodboi]

now all I need to do is wait for my mum to pay me back so that I can order the ts80, multimeter, solder and computer of choice witch I might need some help choosing from tindie I am only allowed to get kits that ship from the UK, as seen in previous recommendations I will probs go for a z80 and a bus raider or a cheaper alternative way of doing it with multiple cards I would preferably like to put it in some sort of case which I might have to  get someone to 3d model for me but other than that I don't know by the way I have 230 quid and can only buy from the UK due to strict parents I appreciate all the help I am getting while looking for something to do during the pandemic 

with joy to all 

Wi-Fi

[Denis Hennessy]

Yes. The other tip that's good is the BC-02 (mostly conical, but with a flattened side - also good for heat transfer).

[wifi goodboi]

im use to bco2 style tips tho 

[Mark T]

Hi wifi,
Make sure those side cutters are not too big and clumsy for the small component leads close together. Another thing to remember when using any side cutters to trim component leads is the small pieces you cut off can fly quite some distance. Your mum will not appreciate getting the pieces out of the carpet but you also need to protect your eyes.

I think you should find a cheaper soldering iron. I don’t think you need portable usb power and should be able to find a cheaper mains powered temperature controlled unit, and spend the difference on the computer kit. Temperature control is nice but not essential, I started myself with an antex 25 watt soldering iron many, many years ago.

I took a look at the kits on Tindie.

Cheapest z80 kit that I saw was sc-114, then the next cheapest was sc-118. Both have expansion connectors but might not be easy to upgrade to use the busraider.

I also saw the price of the busraider, and although it looks nice to simulate the retro computer graphic displays, I think its something to consider after a year or more with simpler kits.

The sc-126 or sc-130 look to be the best value, not much more than the cheap z80 kits. I would suggest the sc-126 as it includes rtc and a simple output port with leds to experiment with. Also i think the double row expansion slots give better future expansion.

Don’t forget to include a serial adapter to let you use your computer as a display terminal.

Do you have a pc to use as a terminal? These kits would need a pc or mac with terminal emulator to control them, at least unless you add a pi display interface.

Mark

[wifi goodboi]

hi mark 

for the carpet issue, I can just hold the lead and then cut that also means I will not need eye protection but if I do I have a pair of glasses.

for the cheaper soldering iron will this do the trick 

and a question about the sc126 how is it powered 

and yes I have 4 pcs and 2 macs including an old dell with a Pentium 4 and the macs are running windows

and the sc126 comes with an option to come with 2 serial adapters 

i will probs also include the sd card adapter the last issue is a case to protect it 

[Steve Cousins]

SC126 can be powered in the following ways:

1. Screw terminals
2. 2.1mm barrel socket
3. 2-pin header (for use with Dupont cables etc)
4. Either serial port header (powered from USB to serial adapter)
5. Either SPI header or I2C header

The usual method is to power from the USB to serial adapter (and thus the power actually comes from the PC). The USB to serial adapters offered with the kit can supply a basic SC126 but will probably not manage a heavily expanded system. Some USB to serial adapters and some USB cables suffer from too much voltage loss to adequately power the system. If power is supplied from the USB to serial adapter the computer's USB socket must be able to supply more than 100mA (see below).

Powering from methods 4 and 5 bypasses the on/off switch.

Power requirements are 5 volt D.C. (4.75 to 5.25 volts) at typically 100mA but can peak at 200mA or more. An expanded system could easily require 400mA or more.

I usually power my systems from the USB to serial adapter as I often switch between different systems. The USB method is available on all of them. For a cased system or one that can be left in place, I'd go for the screw terminal method.

If you want to use the screw terminal method you could get a 5 volt USB style phone charger and cut the end off the USB cable. Locate the 5-volt wires, strip them, and they are ready for the screw terminals.

Whatever supply you use make sure you check it supplies between 4.75 and 5.25 volts. Any higher could damage the components permanently! Any lower and the voltage supervisor will keep it in reset.

Steve

[wifi goodboi]

hi steve 

would this one work or would this work better

and how hard is it to solder the dc jack on considering ground plans can be a pain in the ass

[Steve Cousins]

They both look okay, but there are things to consider.

The mains power supply is rated at 4 amps so there shouldn't be any problem with voltage loss at only a few hundred milliamps. You are very unlikely to need 4 amps. Sometimes having excess power available can lead to damage. Consider this scenario: You are playing around with the hardware while it is on. You accidentally short something. Suddenly you have 4 amps going somewhere it shouldn't. Four amps is enough to create some smoking components. Just a minor point but worth considering.

I've got a USB to 2.1mm cable and it is not up to the job. The voltage loss is quite bad. Read here:

https://www.smbaker.com/measuring-usb-power-cable-voltage-drop-with-my-dc-load

Just look at the results table.

I supply USB cables with some of my kits. I had used one supplier several times without problems. Then I got a batch that suffered too much voltage loss. I think they had changed to thinner wires to save money. Shorter cables suffer less voltage loss than longer cables of the same construction.

With barrel connectors always check the polarity. I use centre positive (outer negative). Most barrel connectors are wired this way, but not all.

Always measure the voltage of a power supply in a new set up before connecting and turning on. ALWAYS. Then measure again when connected and on (to look for voltage loss). This measurement should be on the circuit board so you are measuring the voltage that actually arrives at the components.

Sometimes you just have to get something and see if it works. Read the reviews and look for comments about voltage and voltage loss. 

Steve

On Thursday, 30 April 2020 08:41:10 UTC+1, wifi goodboi wrote:

is steve 

[wifi goodboi]

how had is it  solder the dc jack I have soldered a couple of dc jacks and they were quite the pain due to ground plans and holes being too big cus if it's too hard I might just get the dc 4amp  then get an adapter to put terminals on the end

[wifi goodboi]

by the way, this is the adapter I'm on about

[Steve Cousins]

Nice little adapter. I don't find soldering the jack socket to be a problem but it is difficult to quantify "how hard" it is. You could try the soldering and only get the adapter if you are not happy with the result.

[Steve Crompton]

Hi,

I just want to say its refreshing to see someone younger interested in learning about computer hardware/software design rather than sitting playing computer games all day! - keep going chap

It is a steep learning curve but I hope you get there

Steve

[wifi goodboi]

I tend to watch youtube and go on discord and absolutely love tinkering with my computers  

[wifi goodboi]

could u rephrase that for me I don't really understand the way you have typed that

[wifi goodboi]

Do u think I could salvage some wire from an old router switching PSU or is there a place where I can buy literally 2 pieces of jumper cable

[Eric Matecki]

Add a 5m CAT6 network cable to your next order almost anywhere. They are really cheap.
A very long supply of small wire.

[wifi goodboi]

im guessing i just splice the wire and pull out the small wires 

[wifi goodboi]

also will cat 5/e work I don't really wanna sacrifice my cat 6 cables cus I only have 2

On Thursday, 30 April 2020 16:07:20 UTC+1, Eric Matecki wrote:

[J.B. Langston]

Nobody here is trying to be a grammar nazi. It's fine if you want to type in an informal style and forgo capitalization. The big issue is you just run all your thoughts together with no punctuation and that makes it very hard for us to read.  You are asking people for help. The least you can do is put some effort in to make it easier for the people that are helping you.  Periods were invented for a reason. They separate your thoughts into understandable pieces.  They're not just something old people use for no reason.

when you write like this and you dont separate your sentences then it makes it really hard to read nobody wants to waste their time trying to figure out when one thought ends and the next begins do you see what i mean

[wifi goodboi]

Nah I read that just fine tip for ya read it in your head then u don't have to take a breath

[wifi goodboi]

also if u weren't being a grammar nazi u wouldn't point out my spelling and grammar issues

On Thursday, 30 April 2020 17:13:25 UTC+1, J.B. Langston wrote:

[Richard Deane]

J.B. - You are so right.

To emphasise the importance I would like to mention several anecdotes which highlight why attention to rules, grammar and discipline is important, especially for any youngster who may wish to develop a scientific or engineering career.

1) There have, over the past few years, been several documented legal cases where a comma in the wrong place in a contract caused millions of dollars of loss.

2) Software development should be considered a part of software engineering as a whole where all the disciplines have rules, procedures, and appropriate training. The same would apply to hardware design and development.  As a bad example, when software is developed by a cowboy who names the variables nooky1 and nooky2 it is unmaintainable, and likely lead to loss of profit or even worse in safety critical situations.

3) Before my retirement I was a senior software test manager for many years after drifting out of software development. In my final role I was managing test of design and deployment of datacentres, including test of change implementation in the live datacentres (10,000 + users). We internally recruited into my test team a colleague from the live services help desk. He had degree level education. I had to put him under performace review because his test reports were too poor. His "test reports" were not able to meet the minimum requirement, the language was too casual and sloppy. He had plenty of examples from colleagues to act as templates. I was not trying to be a grammar nazi, just expected that whatever spelling and grammar he knew, he used consistently. The sort of language when giving a high five to a friend in a coffee shop is not that expected in a professional report. He would write an acronym on one line in upper case, next line lower or mixed. It really boiled down to the report reader not being able to determine what was tested, how it was tested, why it was tested and what the result was. Accurate detail clearly described is essential. I usually could not tell if a test had passed or failed. I spent a while on corrective procedures, training, tutoring etc. to no avail, and unfortunately eventually had to sack him. He was such a nice guy so that was the last result we wanted. 

4) I spent many years testing products with GUI front ends, and came to the conclusion that any visible bug (font sizing, spelling, grammar) should automatically be rated much higher in severity. Any bug seen in install/setup as might be detected by a journalist in review is automatically of the most severe rating because if the product gets a bad review it doesn't sell many. My own philosophy, contrary to my development manager colleagues, is to put your best engineers on setup/install whereas they put use new recruits or students thinking it not important.

Richard

On Thursday, 30 April 2020 17:13:25 UTC+1, J.B. Langston wrote:

[Steve Cousins]

Apparently, punctuation doesn't matter...

What does this mean?

"A woman without her man is nothing."

Is it this:

A woman: without her, man is nothing.

or is it this:

A woman, without her man, is nothing.

How about this:

I find inspiration in cooking my family and my dog.

Perhaps it means:

I find inspiration in cooking, my family, and my dog.

And finally:

Let's eat Grandma!

Let's eat, Grandma!

Sometimes punctuation is important.

Wifi. I haven't personally had any problems communicating in our exchanges above, but I do find it easier if things are written clearly. You may disagree with what "clearly" means but if you want people to provide helpful answers you need to consider what they think, not just what you think. Just my two pence worth! 

I think the really important point J.B. alludes to is that when you ask a question, you are actually asking someone to put some time and effort into helping you. You should, therefore, put some time and effort into asking your question in a way that makes it as easy as possible for that person to understand what you are asking. If it looks like a half baked question then you will likely not get much in the way of useful answers. It is about perception as much as reality.

When you have been here a while and have gained the experience to be able to help others you may see it the same way - or not. Time will tell :-)

Steve

[Blane Dabney]

I have a Weller WP35 soldering iron that I've been using for years and years.  Non-adjustable, but perfect for electronics work.  It's not the cheapest, $40 on Amazon, but it's an excellent iron.

That said, I'd recommend an iron in the 50 watt range if you're insisting on lead-free solder.

[wifi goodboi]

I am trying to separate my points as seen in previous points.

I'm not saying grammar is pointless I'm just saying there is no need to correct if they didn't understand it I would much rather them ask what I mean by (quote) because I find it a bit annoying getting corrected because for drama I have had previously on the internet

and if you haven't noticed i am spacing my points out so it's easier to read

[wifi goodboi]

oh and just to ask that last bit u say Time will tell as if u will ban me or something please do say if I have taken that wrong 

On Thursday, 30 April 2020 19:35:21 UTC+1, Steve Cousins wrote:

[Blane Dabney]

You are trying, so kudos to that.  As to the second point, it's a matter of attitude.  Expecting someone to try and parse out the meaning of a badly-formed sentence, and possibly have to ask what you meant by that (and probably getting another badly formed sentence in response), shows that you don't value other people's time, and they will not want to interact with you in the future.

[Bill Shen]

It is nice to see JB, Richard and Steve still making the extra efforts to help. You guys have won my respect, hats off to you!
Bill

[Steve Cousins]

You have definitely taken it the wrong way. 

What I meant to convey is that when you have gained enough experience to help others, you may be more motivated to help people that ask clear questions than those that do not. The "Time will tell" bit refers to YOU finding this out in time.

Steve

[wifi goodboi]

trying is better than nothing am I right, at least I'm not ignoring it and saying I do it my way.

 at least I am trying

[wifi goodboi]

thanks for explaining that one I was getting a bit worried there

[wifi goodboi]

I can agree

[Jim McGinnis]

I think it is good that you are here and are starting to see the value in making fair adjustments to your methods to appease the people who are also going out of their way to help you.

We don't know your circumstances and how you come to be here. We can't be held responsible for your bad experiences on the "net"; and we are not placing blame for your history or how things are going in your life.

But you cannot continue to expect people to be going out of their way to help you when you have a defensive and reticent attitude.

Change the direction you are taking and use the people here to HELP you improve your communications style. Most of us know what will happen in the next few years of your life if you continue to be resistant to change. It isn't a bright future when you refuse to be part of the groups you encounter - whether they are future employers,  teachers, professors, job friends, peers.

No one is criticizing your weaknesses. They are asking you to try to do better and will help you along the way.

And everyone that realizes your situation and can admit that you are trying, will also try; try to help you along the way. No one expects the average 16 year old to be perfect.

Take advantage of the experience here - not just the technical experience. May of us have been very successful in their lives - they aren't slouches to be disrespected.

I am in awe of some of the folks here and their dedication to helping the group. And their patience. And their refusal to pointing out technical inexperience.   And they come from all over the world and co-exist here just fine.

Take care. Be safe.

Jim

[wifi goodboi]

I'm more than happy to try and adjust to some things

I am sorry if I am coming across as defensive I do not  intend to but sometimes I do it due to my "history on the net and in life"

but just to add some information I have ADHD, autism, asperges and dyspraxia just in case that helps you understand a bit better

thanks for all the support have a great rest of the day

wifi

[Jim McGinnis]

It is always important, as you have demonstrated, to recognize that none of us know what is happening in other lives and that everyone has a "bit of challenge" to handle and survive every day. We shouldn't have to disclose it to get understanding. I have a number of similarly difficult medical issues and it is my intent to never tread on others lives. Walk carefully, appreciate and listen to the creatures in the forest...

I think it is great you are here....

Let's have some fun!

Jim

[Steve Cousins]

Jim: That's great advice.

Wifi: Sorry to hear you have issues to deal with. I hope it is clear that actually you are very welcome here. Jim's comments are spot on.

I had a friend at school who didn't try very hard (for want of a better description). He left school with no qualifications and only got a very basic job. I hadn't seen him for many years until, one day, he emailed me. The first thing I noticed was how well his email was written. Turns out he decided shortly after starting that dead-end job that he would do something about it. He went to college in the evenings and worked his way up the academic ladder, eventually getting himself a PhD. He now has his own consultancy business. When we met up I also noticed the change in his verbal communications. Very calm and patient, even when chatting to old friends.

If you want to do "well" in life (good job, nice house, etc.) then consider this: What have people got in common who have "done well"? There are exceptions to every rule but there are also patterns you can observe. Look at people you know and people you meet. Take note of how they communicate (verbal and written) and even how they dress. When you spot the common behaviour of the "done well" people you can try to adopt it yourself. You don't have to stop using 'modern' text style when it is appropriate, but make sure you also learn how to communicate in a formal way. Use every opportunity to practice those skills. Try them out here. Even ask for comments if you like, but practice, practice, practice - until it becomes second nature. In years to come, you will see the benefit of opportunities that would otherwise be closed to you.

I'm sure none of this is easy with the issues you listed, but try not to react badly to things you perceive as unfair criticism. The people here are helpful and you will make friends. Plus you will get some great help with your computer projects.

Steve