Google Groups

[Steve Crompton]

Is it just me?

Google Groups is so unfriendly - I struggle to work with it

Any other options on the cards for this Forum?

I am getting more and more frustrated with Groups the more I try to work with it

Steve

[Interocitor Steve]

I find Goole Groups to be awkward, simplistic, and unforgiving.  I have flamed about this on the RC2014 forum.

Might you be interested in moving to a proper group forum?  

Do you like the admin role?  I am looking for a collaborator.  I am working on a site called "pin40" which will be a

collaboration site for a retro-comp type projects.  

I am building the Zorak Interocitor, an old style front panel computer.  I can manage this work, but can't do it all,

so I am building a collaboration site called "pin40".  I need help with the site and with the project.  Are you interested?

=Steve.

[Eric Matecki]

Google groups isn't friendly to me either...

But so are all other free options I know off.

The only alternative I could see is if someone would set up a forum (something like phpBB) on it's own host.

This has a different set of drawbacks.

[Karl Albert Brokstad]

I remember the discussion on the forum about zorak. How is the project progressing?

[J.B. Langston]

There are already the retrobrew forums which overlaps in subject matter: https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/forum/. It's not currently very active, but if we were to move away from google groups, it would be good to try to breathe life into that rather than further fragment the community into Yet Another Forum.

[Nigel Kendrick]

+1 for Retrobrew

[Sergey Kiselev]

+1... I already have most of my projects on Homebrew Computers Wiki

[Interocitor Steve]

Hello J.B.

How is the animated kitty doing?  Running at top speed I hope.

Here is a WIX site I am playing with.  https://zorak19.wixsite.com/pin40

I have just started "pin40" and added a forum app. I haven't tried the forum yet.  You may want to subscribe and se if you can post anything.  I will take a look at "retrobrewcomputers.org" and some others. 

For a large project there would be multiple threads, one for requirements, one for documentation, user manuals, one for circuit designs, others for related issues as they came up.  I am not sure how the multiple threads would be managed with other threads about unrelated matters.  I may want to upload videos, too.  So I am looking for a platform for collaborating and video conferencing with Skype.  The forums are a slow way to get a lot done wen working together.

=Steve.

BTW, it looks like I have to re-apply to the RC2014-Z80 group.  Don't know what is going on there.

[Interocitor Steve]

Hi Eric,

What drawbacks might they be?  I am attempting to set up such a site for project collaboration.
Maybe more is needed than just a forum?  Any thoughts?

Check out my first attempt at this so far.  https://zorak19.wixsite.com/pin40

=Steve.

[Richard Lewis]

I've switch over to tags, maybe this is better? I can switch categories back on if that's what people prefer

[Interocitor Steve]

Hi Richard,

Do you want to try using up the WIX site?  Let me know.  I can give you admin privileges to see how it manages members.  

So far it seems straight forward.  =Steve.

https://zorak19.wixsite.com/pin40

Go to the home page and click "Form" at the top.

[Eric Matecki]

Le mardi 13 août 2019 05:58:07 UTC+2, Interocitor Steve a écrit :

Hi Eric,

What drawbacks might they be?  I am attempting to set up such a site for project collaboration.
Maybe more is needed than just a forum?  Any thoughts?

Check out my first attempt at this so far.  https://zorak19.wixsite.com/pin40

=Steve.

The very first that comes to mind is when your host goes out of business.

Either you spent time doing daily *offsite* backups "just in case" (which you will get tired off rapidly of you can't automate it), or the content is lost forever.

This is very unlikely with google. At least they'll give you a timely warning as they did with google plus.

Another one is when the owner (the one who pays the host's bill) looses interest in the subject.

Sometimes the transition goes smoothly to someone else, sometimes not...

(recent examples of sites I use :

muffwiggler.com where the transition has been much chaotic (OK, this was a really complicated case),

magiccards.info whose database has been bought by another website and, for all practical purposes, shut down)

Then you'll have the daily admin work to keep all the 'bad guys' ashore.

Having done that several times when the sys-admin of our company went on vacation, it is not to underestimate.

Keeping all the software up to date, banning those who got thru, etc...

Eric M.

[Duncan Reed]

Much like my domain that has hosting on it that I am not currently using, could stick a phpbb on that, but as Eric says looking after them can be a pain. You will need several admins and moderators generally.

You can also do things like a phpbb on AWS https://bitnami.com/stack/phpbb/cloud/aws

[Anna Christina]

Hi,

I think the most appropriate solution for a Retro Computing forum would be a BBS featuring a FidoNet echo board :)

(Maybe some kind of web mirroring solution could be approved *g*)

Anna

[Richard Lewis]

FidoNet. That's a name I haven't heard in a while. To be authentic it would also need to be over 1200 baud dial up as well.

I concur with what Eric is saying: with regard to a privately hosted forum they are generally a bad idea. One or two I had participated in would be "gone" the next day. Or I would suddenly find myself kicked off for being "too off-topic" because the owner decided to change direction. 

So far the Google Groups UI is not that bad, spam is effectively non-existent and I don't need to worry about backing up the information in this forum as a hedge against it disappearing. Also, at least it's not FaceBook...  

Lastly, the reason this group was created was to have what I call a "virtual pub" Where we can talk about anything related to the retro world without fear that we are interfering or impacting someone's business model (such as a forum dedicated to a specific product for example...) 

-Richard

[Duncan Reed]

I used to spend many hours on USENET and I used Deja News a lot, but  I am in the Google Group interface is terrible camp just because it is so feature poor compared to what is available,I just use the mail feature and never go in the web thing unless starting a new topic. It would not take much effort by google to make the interface really good. Just sorting out the only show unread categories feature for example. But I am not sure google is that interested. It is a pity, the potential is there ….

As to backup, well MySpace springs to mind. 

On 13 Aug 2019, at 16:23, Richard Lewis <richa...@gmail.com> wrote:

FidoNet. That's a name I haven't heard in a while. To be authentic it would also need to be over 1200 baud dial up as well.

I concur with what Ericis else is saying: with regard to a privately hosted forum they are generally a bad idea. One or two I've participated in would be "gone" the next day. Or I would suddenly find myself kicked off for being "too off-topic" because the owner decided to change direction. 

So far the Google Groups UI is not that bad, spam is effectively non-existent and I don't need to worry about backing up the information in this forum as a hedge against it disappearing. Also, at least it's not FaceBook...  

Lastly, the reason this group was created was to have what I call a "virtual pub" Where we can talk about anything related to the retro world without fear that we are interfering or impacting someone's business model (such as a forum dedicated to a specific product for example...) 

-Richard

On Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 7:32:24 AM UTC-7, Anna Christina wrote:

Hi,

I think the most appropriate solution for a Retro Computing forum would be a BBS featuring a FidoNet echo board :)

(Maybe some kind of web mirroring solution could be approved *g*)

Anna

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[Interocitor Steve]

Hello Eric,

This is food for thought indeed.

The very first that comes to mind is when your host goes out of business.

Either you spent time doing daily *offsite* backups "just in case" (which you will get tired off rapidly of you can't automate it), or the content is lost forever.  This is very unlikely with google. At least they'll give you a timely warning as they did with google plus.

Three things come to mind

o  the life cycle of the project - it is true that interest comes and goes and group members come and go.  Note that Spencer rarely chimes in these days on his site.  This is no criticism of him, that is just life sometimes your have interest and time, sometimes you don't.

o  In five to ten years there will be no Google Groups.  There are no BBS's anymore, no old style AOL, no NetScape, etc.

o  WIX doesn't seem to be a one-off.  Continuity of operations (COOP) and catastrophic recovery are integral to most business systems and sometimes required as paer of Sarbanes-Oxley here in the states.

Another one is when the owner (the one who pays the host's bill) looses interest in the subject.

Sometimes the transition goes smoothly to someone else, sometimes not...

(recent examples of sites I use :

muffwiggler.com where the transition has been much chaotic (OK, this was a really complicated case),

magiccards.info whose database has been bought by another website and, for all practical purposes, shut down)

o  True.  If I lose interest, someone else will have to champion the work.  If I get hit by a bus, that's the end of it.

Then you'll have the daily admin work to keep all the 'bad guys' ashore.

Having done that several times when the sys-admin of our company went on vacation, it is not to underestimate.

Keeping all the software up to date, banning those who got thru, etc...

o  I think the admin work is necessary even with this site.  Eric seems to be busy with this.

o  Google performs "updates" that are not always user desirable.

Thank you for this response.  This has me thinking.  

o  Collaboration is temporary, it only exists for the life of the project.  So the site can be temporary.

o  All the finished work products can sit on another platform, like Github. Don't know if this is the best choice, but I think t is a version control platform?

o  It makes the development of any WIX site easier because it needs to be just one thing for a certain set of users.

o  This also limits software updates and administration.

Thanks! I will rethink my original approach.

[Interocitor Steve]

Anna Christina wrote:

I think the most appropriate solution for a Retro Computing forum would be a BBS 

 Fantastic idea.  I wonder if I still have my Hayes modem around somewhere. 

=Steve.

[J.B. Langston]

It sounds like  https://hackaday.io/ might be extactly what you are after. It is a project hosting and sharing site with collaboration tools, file hosting, blogging, discussion threads, etc.   I've used it, for example for my z80ctrl and Game Boards projects:  https://hackaday.io/project/158338-z80ctrl, https://hackaday.io/project/159057-game-boards-for-rc2014.  It's heavily trafficked and Hackaday is one of the biggest blogs in the maker/homebrew/diy electronics space, so I don't think you have to worry about it going away anytime soon.

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[John Kennedy]

I built a little serial to WiFi adaptor, and so now I can connect my Altair-Duino / IMSAI / random kits to the internet via telnet. 

I then installed a version of Synronicity BBS on a Raspberry Pi, and I was able to log into my own private BBS!

My goal - apart from messing around of course - was to test if I could make a simple BBS with a File storage system so I could download CP/M files directly to the retro-systems. That part I'm still experimenting with.

But a BBS that retro-computer users could dial into from their retro-computers and download files directly from would be fun..

[Interocitor Steve]

Hello Eric,

I just lost my long response to your comments.  Gosh darn it.

Here in a nutshell, are my thoughts on your words . . .

o  Almost all IT companies go out of business, or get busted up into pieces.  I'd be the first one to take Google down a few notches.  
o  Changes come along so quickly, I can't even remember crazes from two years ago.  Not all of them were welcome.

o  Yes, management of a site is a pain, and I think Richard would agree, even on larger platforms.

o  Yes, if I get hit by a bus, it is up to someone else to glom onto what's left and continue, assuming it doesn't just vanish

So, I have decided that what I need is 

-- a collaboration site that will serve its purpose for the life of the project and then dissolve.

---- with work products stored on Github or some other type of version control repository for edits among collaborators.

------ with proper release versions identified on the same site

-------- with any product sales posted on Tindie or similar (should a demand arise)

This eliminates issues w/ site maintenance, backups, and upgrades.  

Collaborators will be a few - not everybody is interested in this - so the effort is manageable.

Without the need for a long term commitment, things are easier.

Does this sound better to you?

Eric, thank you for your response.  You put me back on the tracts.  I am grateful.

=Steve.

On Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 5:07:25 AM UTC-4, Eric Matecki wrote:

Le mardi 13 août 2019 05:58:07 UTC+2, Interocitor Steve a écrit :

Hi Eric,

What drawbacks might they be? . . .

 

The very first that comes to mind is when your host goes out of business.

Either you spent time doin . . .

[Duncan Reed]

Over in the acorn world we have the teletext bulletin board

https://glasstty.com/wiki/index.php/The_TELSTAR_Videotex_System

I also access it via a esp type device on BBC Master.

Just need these running on RC2014 now ….

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[Richard Lewis]

Google groups may not be ideal but it serves it's purpose for basic discussion. No, it doesn't have 'advanced' features like thread management (well it does but you have to pay for it) but I find the ability to create posts with a WYSIWYG editor, attach images and documents and I can edit my posts to be "good enough". As far as administration is concerned I do very little (basically none). I certainly don't have the time to setup a versioned BBS on GitHub and spend time to maintain it. 

If people want to create their own groups on a different platform who am I to say no? Would I participate? Probably not since I've already have too many work emails, instant messages from colleagues on Slack, texting my spouse etc etc. I just want to hang out in one place and not have to remember where I last posted. I still hang out from time-to-time on the RC2014 group but in respect to Spencer's wishes I limit my time there because his goals and interests don't necessarily intersect with mine.  

Richard

[Interocitor Steve]

Understood, Richard.  I get it completely, more than you know.  

The Zorak collaboration will need managed threads (I think) and other tools.

The WIX site will be just for the Zorak project.  I figured this out this morning with Eric's help.

May I take the liberty of periodically posting Zorak progress here on your site?

BTW, I am glad you started this group; it is the place for RC2014 graduates.

=Steve.

[Richard Lewis]

As stated in the welcome message you can post whatever you like that is within the theme of this group.That certainly includes updates on your project.  I wouldn't say that this group is for "RC2014 graduates" Feel free to post anything concerning the RC2014 ecosystem as well, even "noob" questions are welcome (within reason). 

However: given that Spencer is not a member of this group I would recommend that support related questions specific to Spencer's RC2014 kits be posted in his group instead. 

-Richard

[Interocitor Steve]

Thanks.

Got it all.

=Steve.

[Interocitor Steve]

Wonderful stuff !  One should have a proper terminal . . .    300px-Teletype-IMG_7287.jpg

Maybe get one for the Interocitor, too.

[Sergey Kiselev]

As an alternative, it might be possible to use Vintage Computer Federation forum. Although they are mostly focused on vintage systems, DIY vintage-like systems or DIY additions to vintage systems (e.g. various controllers) frequently come up in the discussions.

I can check with VCF admins if they agree to use their forum for DIY systems, and maybe they can create a separate "Genre" for it.