IDE for Windows PC

[Interocitor Steve]

Hello all,

It has been a while, but my lab is set up again after several hiatuses.

I have abandoned my MacBook approach for an Integrated Development Environment base.  There are not as any offerings compared to those found for PCs. Ditto for HAM Radio tools.

It has been a long time since I had a PC.  I was planning, sometime ago, to use a DOS machine, but I no longer have one.

Right now I have a desktop Windows 10 machine.  I also have Steve Cousins' Covid CPM kit.

Ideally, I would like to have a C compiler with a macro-assembler.  I want to be able to edit code easily.  I suspect a Z80 emulator would be useful, too.  I did see a High-Tec C video on YouTube which looked good, but who knows.  Is there any tool set commonly used among group members? What do y'all recommend?

The floor is open for comment.

=Steve.

So, the floor is open.

[Douglas Miller]

I use zmac (http://48k.ca/zmac.html) on Linux, and it claims to work on Windows. I also use a CP/M emulator that I wrote in JAVA (uses a Z80 CPU model), so should run on Windows. I use the CP/M emulator to run RMAC/LINK and other CP/M tools to build executables that can be transferred to a real CP/M machine and run. One location for my CP/M emulator is https://github.com/durgadas311/MmsCpm3/tree/master/tools/vcpm, If you need more detail, I can help.

[Interocitor Steve]

I am not planning to use CP/M as a target system except for readily available BASIC games and stuff life that.  I 'might could' use CPM for a development system.  I think S. Cousin's little Covid CPM box clicks along pretty quickly.

I will check out zmac.  But, I need a C compiler, too.  Thanks for the offer to help on the CPM stuff, but I do not have a need at this time.

=Steve.

PS:  My Windows 10 machine died for no apparent reason.  There is no VGA output at all.  The DVD drive and HD blink once on boot, but just a blink.  There is no OS loading happening.  There is no initial CMOS set-up utility screen - nothing.

I can pick up an XP Windows box for about $139 US on ebay, delivered.  I remember being happy with XP. 

I can't find any old DOS boxes for anything near cheap. 

Does anyone remember, did XP still have DOS support?

[Mark Durham]

If you are looking to run XP, then have a look at one of the old thin client devices. I have an HP T5530 series device that I run XP on. I replaced the small capacity flash drive - 1gb I think - with a larger 16gb one. It also has a parallel port for old PROM programmers too.

I came across a CPM emulator running under W10 called RunCPM (https://github.com/MockbaTheBorg/RunCPM). You will need the free version of MS Visual Studio to build it. The reason I chose was because RunCPM emulates the CP/M disks and user areas by means of subfolders under the RunCPM executable location, so you don't have to "transfer" files to the CPM system as such.

I've not used it much - just long enough to figure out how to use the old National Semiconductor Digital Voice Selection Software (DVSS) to create new ROMs.

[Douglas Miller]

I'm no longer clear what you're looking for. Even the High-Tech C compiler uses an emulator (or it did, last time I used it). The emulator is for running tools, like any native CP/M compilers, assemblers, and linkers. All of these are targetting CP/M for the resulting executables. But if you're not running the programs you compile, I wonder why you're compiling them. Or do you mean you are not running on "real hardware"?

If you're dead-set on running Windows (as opposed to, say, Linux), I've heard that cygwin has become quite complete (https://www.cygwin.com/). I used it many years ago, as a way to get a sensible commandline environment on Windows. Now days I just wipe out Windows and install Linux, or else setup dual-boot.

[Alan Cox]

On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 at 08:58, Douglas Miller <durga...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm no longer clear what you're looking for. Even the High-Tech C compiler uses an emulator (or it did, last time I used it).

There is a DOS cross version of the Hi-Tech compiler. I don't remember
offhand if it was ever freed up the way the CP/M for Z80 one was.

[Derek Cooper]

How about z88dk ?

[Interocitor Steve]

Hi etched & derek.

ecthde:  I want to develop code for a remote system.  I suspect that CP/M tools make code for CP/M, but I suspect that using ORG statements can get around this. 

dereh:  I read that z88DK C does not support arrays.

Hello,

I found the M80 macro assembler online which runs under CP/M.  I have Steve Cousins's SC131 Elite computer which can run CP/M.  Is it possible to use the SC131 for z80 assembly development.  If so, where should I put the executables.  There seems to be a lot of RAM and ROM in this computer, but CP/M maps things a little bit funny - it is not like a bare Z80 board, CP/M is an OS.

Can I use M80 CP/M to develop software not targeted to CPM?

If so, how do I put the M80 tools onto the CP/M machine.  Is there a KERMIT like file transfer app.

There is a micro card slot, can this be used for memory (i.e.  another disk)?  Can this be accessed in real-time when building programs or transferring files?

Also, I need to use the second USB port on SC131 to connect to the target system and do downloads.  What is the app to do this under CPM.  

The program for CP/M to the terminal emulator (on my Mac) and CP/M to the target system are probably the same program.  But I don't know.

Just to keep up the confusion, SC131 comes with Steve Cousins Monitor which will probably be running in the target.  The Steve's monitor can transfer files.  But SCM is not CP/M.  I would like to transfer files to the target under CP/M so I do not have to mode switch between CP/M mode (for development) to SCM mode (for file transfers).

Steve C. If you are out there, have you ever used SCM to SCM file transfers on different machines, such as from SC131 to an Interocitor running SCM?

=Steve.

[Douglas Miller]

I use my emulator (vcpm) to run M80/L80 (or RMAC/LINK) to produce CP/M COM files under Linux. I have also used Software Toolworks C (and then M80/RMAC ...). Just about any native CP/M tools can be used. There are other CP/M emulators as well. The COM files are created on my Linux filesystem, and from there they can be transferred or distributed as needed (downloaded to a real CP/M machine, used in cpmtools to create disk images, etc). You should be able to use any compiler/assembler/linker that exists for CP/M.

M80 and RMAC are not limited to producing CP/M executables, although that is what they do best. Higher level languages may be harder to use for creating non-CP/M executables, but it is possible. I have used M80 and RMAC to produce ROM images.

[Alan Cox]

> ecthde: I want to develop code for a remote system. I suspect that CP/M tools make code for CP/M, but I suspect that using ORG statements can get around this.

Yes - The CP/M system tools are used to build CP/M itself for example
which is linked at an address other than 0x0100

> dereh: I read that z88DK C does not support arrays.

Your source of info is incorrect. The original Z88DK compiler supports
only 1 dimensional arrays, the current SDCC derived one is pretty much
a full ANSI C with some extensions for embedded work, and also for
things like I/O space. So you can do stuff like

__sfr __at 0xC0 uart_data;

and uart_data = 'X' will generate an out to 0xC0 of 'X'

[Interocitor Steve]

Hello etched,

A few issues about z88DK I see.

o  There is no documentation for the C language supported.  I mean the language itself, not how to use it.
o  There are two C compilers, dunno know why.
o  The only arrays I can find are defined for C++ and they seem to be special and not typical general-purpose arrays.  They are single dimension.
o  One needs to build the IDE using GitHub tools I am unfamiliar with.  
o  The only assembler documentation I found was a Zilog Z180 reference.
o  Here is the Z88dk toolset.
    zcc is the toolchain's front end. zcc can generate an output binary out of any set of input source files.
    z88dk-scc80 is z88dk's native c compiler. sccz80 is derived from small c but has seen much development to the point that it is nearly c89 compliant as well features from later standards.
    z88dk-zsdcc is z88dk's customization of the sdcc optimizing c compiler. Our patch makes sdcc compatible with the z88dk toolchain, gives it access to z88dk's extensive assembly language libraries and ready-made crts, addresses some of sdcc's code generation bugs and improves on sdcc's generated code. It has very good standards compliance with c89, some c99 and a little c11.
    z88dk-z80asm (not to be confused with several external projects called z80asm) is a fully featured assembler / linker / librarian implementing sections.
    z88dk-z80nm is z80asm's companion library dumper. It can provide a listing of functions or data encoded in an object or library file.
    z88dk-zobjcopy allows object and library files built by Z80ASM to be manipulated.
    z88dk-appmake processes the raw binaries generated by the toolkit into a form suitable for specific target machines. For example, it can generate intel hex files, tapes, ROMs, disc images etc.
    z88dk-ticks is a command line z80 emulator and debugger that can be used to time execution speed of code fragments.
    z88dk-gdb provides the debugger interface from ticks and connects to a gdbserver to permit line-by-line debugging of software in emulators or on real hardware.
    z88dk-dis is a command line disassembler for 8080, 8085, gbz80, Z80, Z180, Z80N, R800, KC160 and Rabbit 2000/3000/4000. It can additionally read map files generated by z80asm to provide a more symbolic output.
    z88dk-lib is an installer for third party libraries. It manages installation, removal and listing of available libraries.
    z88dk0-zx0 and z88dk-zx7 are PC side data compression tools with companion decompression functions in the z80 library.
    z88dk-dzx0 and z88dk-dzx7 are PC-side decompressor counterparts to the z88dk-zx0 and z88dk-zx7.

This is too complicated for my needs.

=Steve.

[Interocitor Steve]

I have settled on CP/M tools as follows.

Development system is Elite SC131 (S. Cousins' Z180 box)

MASM-80
CREF-80.PDF  (documentation)
CREF80.COM  (builds symbolic maps)
L80.COM  (linker)
LIB-80.PDF   (documentation)
LIB80.COM  (library editor)
LINK-80.PDF   (documentation)
M80.COM   (macro assembler)
  MACRO-80.PDF  (documentation)
TEN.MAC  (code for something, don't know what - zero comments))
CP/M 2.2 Manual.SAM  (CP/M manual)
HI-TECH bin(1).lbr  (is this a library to be unpacked in CP/M?)
HI-TECH C FOR CP/M & Z80.odt (documentation)

I do not know how to get these executables on the CP/M box.  CP/M and DOS are a long way back for me.  I remember Kermit but I think that came later.  There is PIP.  Can I copy the console (CRT) to a file in binary mode?

=Steve.

[Interocitor Steve]

Is there anything such as  binary file for executables in CP/M.  In reading the documentation, I got the impression that programs are in Intel hex format and then translated into binary with the LOAD command?

[Douglas Miller]

The COM file, which is the only one you can directly execute (in CP/M 2.2), is binary. It is a simple binary image of the program with the first byte representing the contents of location 0x100. HEX is an intermediate file for some tools (ASM and MAC from DRI), and I think it is an option for output from L80. M80 assembles into REL files, then you use L80 to combine REL files (might only be one) and produce the desired output. I'm not a fan of the M80/L80 command syntax, but some prefer it. DRI's RMAC/LINK are a bit more limited, and don't support Zilog mnemonics, but also use REL files. REL file is a relocatable format that allows for multiple modules to be combined into a single executable.

Getting binary files onto a new machine has been a problem since the beginning. The best way, arguably, is to write the files onto some media that the target machine can read. If the machine uses floppies, that can be a problem these days. If it has a CF or SDCard, then it is possible to use cpmtools on a PC to add files to the image. That is not a trivial task, but once you've done it then it becomes fairly easy.

If you must transfer over a serial port, probably the best way is to use a program designed for that - kermit is one. Otherwise, you'll have to work out timing and/or flow control and probably translate the binary files into HEX or some other format where it can be checked on the receiving end.

[Phillip Stevens]

A few issues about z88DK I see.

o  There is no documentation for the C language supported.  I mean the language itself, not how to use it.

The C standard targeting is C90 or C99, and both the compilers achieve this in the most part.

(z)sdcc is trying to achieve more modern definition, but z88dk stops with C90 or parts of C99.

So you can read the ISO C90 documentation to be safe.

 

o  There are two C compilers, dunno know why.

One is good. Two is better, seriously.

zsdcc (which is the most recent sdcc v4.4.0 release) is optimising, but optimisation process takes time. It only targets z80/z180/z80n/rabbit/gbz80 processors.

sccz80 is much faster to compile, and can be faster to run because it doesn't use an index register to reference variables. It can also therefore also target 8080 and 8085 processors.

o  One needs to build the IDE using GitHub tools I am unfamiliar with.

No, you can just download the daily and install it on windows / macos / or linux. It is better to build it yourself if you're using linux though.

Follow the installation instructions for your platform.

 

o  The only assembler documentation I found was a Zilog Z180 reference.

The assembler documentation is never complete, but it is not bad.

It is best to read the assembly files in the the repository to get a feel for the preferred style.

Both Intel and Zilog syntax is supported, as are all the various machine types.

• -mz80 Z80
• -mz80n Z80 variant of the ZX Next
• -mgbz80 GameBoy Z80
• -m8080 8080 with Zilog or Intel mnemonics
• -m8085 8085 with Zilog or Intel mnemonics
• -mz180 Z180
• -mez80 eZ80 in 24-bit mode (ADL=1)
• -mez80_z80 eZ80 in 16-bit mode (ADL=0)
• -mr2ka Rabbit 2000A
• -mr3k Rabbit 3000
• -mti83plus TI83Plus
• -mti83 TI83

But there is nothing that z88dk-z80asm can't do (in terms of assembling 8080 (and derived machines) code).

If you find something relevant that it can't do, then Paulo will add it very quickly. Trust me.

o  Here is the Z88dk toolset.

I'll delete the things you don't need to think about, for compiling C code...

 

    zcc is the toolchain's front end. zcc can generate an output binary out of any set of input source files.

Yes, for compiling C or assembling any variety of 8080/z80 derived code the only tool you need to think about is zcc.

Everything is orchestrated by zcc to get the output you need to have.

 

This is too complicated for my needs.

There's a number of how to instructions you can see here.

I wrote one for the RC2014, but it is also valid for RomWBW HBOS, and for native CP/M targets.

But, if you want to work on a CP/M machine then you have the choices you made below. (Hi-Tech C, etc).

P.

[Interocitor Steve]

Hi Douglas,

I was glad to hear you say that a getting binary file onto CP/M is a problem from the get-go.  I discovered a YouTube video about how to get a naked CP/M system to accept files (of any kind).  This is indeed none trivial.  See

"So you have a CP/M machine, how do you get software onto it?" by TS Dj.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32oxnyERDgI

TS Dj's solution is to type in, by hand, a short program to modify PIP.  PIP is changed to use a lower level I/O "port".  I don't know the details.  ED, the line editor that comes with CP/M ,is used to tediously enter a 60-ish line program called PIPMODEM.ASM  

Once entered correctly, the ASM file is assembled, linked with PIP, and then run.  The modified PIP reads from a serial port .  It only does reads.  The console (CRT:) is used for transfer control with Cntl-Z and ESC characters.

The file to be loaded, in this case, is MBOOT3.ASM which support X-modem.  This is then compiled as MBOOT.COM.  It can then be run and we have a way to transfer files onto a previously naked CP/M machine.

I forget how primitive CP/M is and how long ago it was when it was popular.

I am actually using Steve Cousin's Z180 box, sc131.  This box comes with CP/M and XM.COM which is an X-Modem transfer program, so no worries there.

Also, because I have a terminal emulator program, MacWise.app, I can open ED in the terminal and paste source code listings into the ED editor when it is in insert (i) mode.  However, before the before the file is pasted, one has to change linefeed characters (LF) in the text to carriage return characters (CR).  Back in CP/M days, CR was the end-of-line character, not LF.   ED wants to see CRs.  I use a Mac app called Hex Fiend to change LFs to CRs in whatever I want to insert into the open ED program.  I also slow down the baud rate to 9600 to allow for processing time.

And that's all I have to say about that.  - Phew!

I have been in IT for a long time, before it was called IT.  This are indeed stone age tools.  I forgot how life use to be.  I am not so sure I want to use CP/M for development any more.  I have a target Z80 system with 32K or ROM under 32K of higher address RAM.  CP/M has a specific memory model which is different from my target system.  

So, I need a cross assembler and C cross compiler.  I haven't identified that development system yet.  But I think using CP/M will slow me down. Thanks a lot for your feedback.  I am one step closer to an IDE.  I now know it is not CP/M.

=Steve.

[Interocitor Steve]

Hi Phillip,

Thanks for the detailed response.  I will give z88DK another look.  Especially regarding your comments about downloading and running the tools without building anything.

=Steve.

[Mike Hankey]

I don't remember where I found it but if you go to ED, create a new file, enter Insert mode then in a Term program like TeraTerm under File->Send File it will enter the character like you were typing.  Then you can ASM.

I've done this with quit a few files and it works like a charm!

[Interocitor Steve]

Hi Phillip,

There does not seem to be any documented multi-dimensional array support in C for z80dk.  This is what I read on Wikipedia and found in the C90 documentation.

On Monday, May 6, 2024 at 11:06:36 AM UTC-4 Phillip Stevens wrote:

[Phillip Stevens]

On Monday 13 May 2024, Interocitor Steve wrote:

There does not seem to be any documented multi-dimensional array support in C for z88dk.

This is what I read on Wikipedia and found in the C90 documentation.

There, fixed that for you.

But seriously, Wikipedia is not a sensible place to get up to date technical information, when actual documentation sources are available.

Try compiling the example samegame program (in the examples directory), which gives an example of using two dimensional arrays.

You could try with the sccz80 compiler like this.

zcc +cpm samegame.c -o samegame --list -create-app

Or with the sdcc compiler like this.

zcc +cpm -compiler=sdcc samegame.c -o samegame --list -create-app

In each case you can read the resulting samegame.c.lis list file to see the assembly being generated.

And the resulting SAMEGAME.COM file can be transferred with XMODEM and run from CP/M.

There's a number of how to instructions you can see here.

I wrote one for the RC2014, but it is also valid for RomWBW HBOS, and for native CP/M targets.

 P.

[Interocitor Steve]

Hi Phillip,

I will try the example programs you suggested.  I am sure it will work.  Thank you.  Thanks for correcting the Wiki page, too.

But regarding "when actual documentation sources are available",  I see no C language reference manual for either of the z80dk C compilers.

This is what worries me about home-brew / hobby compilers.  

I am worried about finding something that doesn't compile which may possibly be a bug in the compiler.  What can I check to see if my syntax is correct?  What can I check to see if the compiler supports what I am trying to do?  There are always solutions to problems I encounter and there are always other ways to do things. But I don't want to debug a compiler, I want documented tools to write programs.  In the worse scenario, I may have to abandon the tool set or abandon a design.  I will have enough to do debug with my own code.

Here is an example of what I mean.  You said . . .

You could try with the sccz80 compiler like this.

zcc +cpm samegame.c -o samegame --list -create-app

Or with the sdcc compiler like this.

zcc +cpm -compiler=sdcc samegame.c -o samegame --list -create-app

How am I to know which compiler to use?  Why is there a choice?  This is an added layer of uncertainty.  What happens if I find I need both compilers.  This adds a configuration management layer to the builds and maybe issues with interoperability between libraries.  Basically, I don't want to have to bother with or get inside these things.

Still, thanks for the feedback.  I will try the game program you suggested.  I have not settled on anything yet.

=Steve.

[Phillip Stevens]

On Tuesday 14 May 2024, Interocitor Steve wrote:

But regarding "when actual documentation sources are available",  I see no C language reference manual for either of the z80dk C compilers.

There is an SDCC Manual, that I've referred to in the descriptions that I've referenced for you previously. But since SDCC covers a lot of different machines, there is a lot to ignore.

There is no specific SCCZ80 Manual. You can assume that it is a standard C90 compiler.

A lot can be learned just from using the zcc command help option, and by looking at example command lines provided in many places (for example here).

This is what worries me about home-brew / hobby compilers.

But using a Z80 development environment is never going to be like using the Arduino IDE, or Xcode. If you are looking for something like that, then I'm not sure where to guide you.

The z88dk is maintained (and continually grown) by people with passion for classic Z80 and 8080 machines. They are always adding support for new (old) machines trying to keep them alive and running, more than 40 years after they were launched. Three more classic machines were added this week.

 

I am worried about finding something that doesn't compile which may possibly be a bug in the compiler.  What can I check to see if my syntax is correct?  What can I check to see if the compiler supports what I am trying to do?  There are always solutions to problems I encounter and there are always other ways to do things. But I don't want to debug a compiler, I want documented tools to write programs.  In the worse scenario, I may have to abandon the tool set or abandon a design.  I will have enough to do debug with my own code.

Here is an example of what I mean.  You said . . .

You could try with the sccz80 compiler like this.

zcc +cpm samegame.c -o samegame --list -create-app

Or with the sdcc compiler like this.

zcc +cpm -compiler=sdcc samegame.c -o samegame --list -create-app

How am I to know which compiler to use?  Why is there a choice?

I'm lucky enough to own two cars, either of which will take me to the supermarket. Which one do I chose to drive in?  Of course one may be better for rutted 4WD tracks, and the other for driving long distances comfortably on the highway, but for general supermarket trips it doesn't matter at all which one I take.

It is the same with the two compilers.

You will find there are differences in the way they generate assembly. But for general usage there is no difference. Use the one you want.

Some relevant differences.

SCCZ80

- supports 8080/8085 CPUs. Is really good at 8085 (just FYI).

- supports multiple floating point formats, so possible to get higher granularity with 6 Byte floats.

- fast to compile, but not optimising so resulting code can be larger.

- uses HL register for stack access (just FYI).

SDCC

- optimising compiler resulting in smaller code (usually).

- slow to compile, because optimisation process can be very processor hungry. e.g. perhaps 10-15 minutes for a compile cycle with a large library or program.

- only IEEE float 4 Byte floats, single precision accuracy only.

- uses an Index register for stack access (just FYI).

Performance is approximately equal, depending on which benchmark is used, so that is not a factor.

Basically, I don't want to have to bother with or get inside these things.

Ok. But, at least read the documentation and experiment with the many example programs before giving up.

P.

[Interocitor Steve]

Hmmm..... not too good trying this.

There is no "samegame" anywhere in the downloaded z88dk toolset.

(ASIDE: Samegame.com in your text mistaken for a website link)

Tried Pacmac, but . . .

There is no packman.c in the downloaded examples, but there is a Makefile.

I tried the Makefile which requires Xcode which is not available for macOS Mohave.

[Phillip Stevens]

On Wednesday 15 May 2024, Interocitor Steve wrote:

Hmmm..... not too good trying this.

There is no "samegame" anywhere in the downloaded z88dk toolset.

Yes, there is.

Look in the z88dk/examples/console directory from the downloaded Windows daily zip file.

Tried Pacmac, but . . .

There is no packman.c in the downloaded examples, but there is a Makefile.

The pacman target and its examples are nothing to do with we've been speaking about.

I tried the Makefile which requires Xcode which is not available for macOS Mohave.

You do not need Xcode with Windows. We have been speaking about a PC running Windows.

Even with MacOS you do not need Xcode to use z88dk. You download the prepared binaries for MacOS and unzip them.

Try to follow the instructions, they are very simple.

That is all.

P.

[Interocitor Steve]

Ah, the "console" directory, not the "examples" directory.  Makes a difference.