Questions about RomWBW (SCZ180/SC126)

[David Reese]

I'm finally getting to the point I'd like to do a little more than poke around in MBASIC and WordStar, but I'm running into difficulty remembering how to do simple things in CP/M 2.2 (comes with age, I suppose).

Let me get to it:  I have some questions.

1.)  RomWBW includes both CP/M 2.2 and something called "Z-System" (which I think is either a CP/M variant called ZCPR that ran through about four or five incarnations, or ZS-DOS, an Eastern European variant of CP/M).

      Does Z-System have any functional advantages over CP/M 2.2, and where would I go to get reference data on this system?

      I see where some are using CP/M 3.  I'll ask the same question here:  what are the advantages of CP/M 3 over CP/M 2.2?  Where do I go to get info on CP/M 3 (perhaps the Humongous CP/M Archive?)

2.)  I have a few CP/M-related manuals I've managed to crib from the interwebs, but they seem fragmentary in comparison to what I remember from my old CP/M Bible (that got destroyed in Hurricane Katrina).

      Are there any good resources for learning CP/M still in print?

3.)  And here's the question that started this topic:  How does one copy a file from one user to another in a CP/M system?  Here are the specifics:

      I have a copy of WordStar 4.0 that I'm using to do some MBASIC editing.  This copy and the files I've edited reside on C:, User 2

      

      MBASIC resides on C:, but on User Zero.  I'd like to transfer MBASIC source files from User 2 onto User Zero when I'm ready to test them.

      I realized this likely involves having a copy of PIP.COM on both users, and have successfully used DDT.COM to create a copy of PIP.COM in both places using the following (cribbed from one of those manuals I found):

            USER 0                     Log in user 0.

           DDT PIP.COM            (note PIP size s) Load PIP to memory.

           GO                             Return to CCP.

           USER 2                      Log in user 2.

          SAVE s PIP.COM

     where size, s, is found by noting the value output by DDT at NEXT.  In copying my PIP.COM, NEXT was equal to 1E, so the size, s, would be equal to 1D or 16 + 13 = 29 in Decimal.

     When I read up on DDT, I realized that GO is a TYPO.  The command at that point is a G without the O.

     Where I'm confused now is how do I account for the users areas in the PIP command?  Or should I just use DDT to copy files (that seems kinda risky...)?

I remember a time when all this stuff was second nature to me.  I'm having to re-learn.  Please bear with me, folks, and Thanks!

[Richard Deane]

1) Zsys does have advantages over cpm22 - for me the main one is the ability to better handle user numbers. Foexample zsys has a copy command (copy  source destination - the reverse of pip) which can copy between user numbers e.g. copy A1:fred.bas C0:

Also the Zpath command to define drives and user numbers for searching for programs entered at command prompt.

Wayne's ROMwbw doc and contrib folders are good places to start with doc. Also have a browse on gaby.de , Also https://661.org/p112/files/zsdos.pdf

2) Abe books usually has printed books on cp/m ; good one is Andy Johnson Lairds' CP/M Programmers Handbook - also as pdf download at http://www.classiccmp.org/cini/march/Programmers%20CPM%20Handbook%20by%20Andy%20Johnson-Laird.pdf with source examples via gaby.de  http://www.cpm.z80.de/source.html

3) Boot zsys, use copy command e.g. copy A1:fred.bas C0:

Note your comment re DDT that GO is wrong, that is meant to be G0 (G zero). These mistakes creep in from scanninng old manuals with OCR or human transcription errors.

Hope this helps

Richard

[Richard Deane]

I forgot to answer why CPM/3 is better than CP/M22

There is no clear cut answer here - cpm22 has a larger historic user base with lots of software and works in say 48k - 64k memory.

CP/M3 adds in some newer features. e.g. time/date on files, setdef command to define program search path. Can give larger TPA than CPM22 as it can be implemented (preferred) with banked memory - as in romwbw. Can have added functionality through loadable modules (RSX)

It moves away from programs depending on access to cp/m bios functions, but there is a free third party shim (CPM2) to help keep old cpm22 programs working.

Disk access is faster with buffering, and it supports larger hard disks (if implemented)

CP/M3 was very popular on the newest machines e.g. Amstrad PCW and CPC128, lots of apps out there, but be careful of those that use video memory as that is Amstrad specific ( very good Joyce emulator available if you want to access Amstrad disk images and extract files)

Hope this helps

Richard

p.s. My preferred CP/M programming language is PLI80, very feature rich with good access to CP/M BDOS. Handles conversion between datatypes well.

On Sunday, 5 April 2020 07:54:38 UTC+1, David Reese wrote:

[David Reese]

On 4/5/20 2:21 AM, Richard Deane wrote:

1) Zsys does have advantages over cpm22 - for me the main one is the ability to better handle user numbers. Foexample zsys has a copy command (copy  source destination - the reverse of pip) which can copy between user numbers e.g. copy A1:fred.bas C0:

Also the Zpath command to define drives and user numbers for searching for programs entered at command prompt.

Wayne's ROMwbw doc and contrib folders are good places to start with doc. Also have a browse on gaby.de , Also https://661.org/p112/files/zsdos.pdf

2) Abe books usually has printed books on cp/m ; good one is Andy Johnson Lairds' CP/M Programmers Handbook - also as pdf download at http://www.classiccmp.org/cini/march/Programmers%20CPM%20Handbook%20by%20Andy%20Johnson-Laird.pdf with source examples via gaby.de  http://www.cpm.z80.de/source.html

3) Boot zsys, use copy command e.g. copy A1:fred.bas C0:

Note your comment re DDT that GO is wrong, that is meant to be G0 (G zero). These mistakes creep in from scanninng old manuals with OCR or human transcription errors.

Hope this helps

Richard

Thank you, Richard.  I discovered Wayne's RomWBW stuff about ten minutes after I posted, but I really appreciate the links you sent, and the quick info on ZSDOS.  Wow... there's some confusing information out there regarding ZSDOS - Wikipedia is where I got the notion it was an Eastern European variant...

Egad!  Yes, PIP uses destination=source syntax!  That's a nice piece of the puzzle...

It's just going to be a journey learning how to do all this stuff from "plain-vanilla" CP/M 2.2 again, but, meanwhile, just to be more productive, I'll also learn ZSDOS.

That bit about OCR and transcription errors:  yeah, I see that a lot in old manuals that look like they were scanned on a FAX machine at < 200 dpi.

Thanks Again!

[David Richards]

Greetings David,

When I needed to reorganize one of my disks I found nsweep useful for moving files between different users.

Using pip is possible but depends on having a version available to each user (I think), its a nuisance anyway.

There are plenty of alternatives, some listed here:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/comp.os.cpm/nsweep$20sweep%7Csort:date/comp.os.cpm/oqhN89cvfWA/xwuRhMUqwFQJ

There was recently a discussion about the merits of various file utilities but I cant find it just now.

hth David.

[David Reese]

It's all good, or, as they may have said in a quieter, gentler century,
more grist for the mill.  Thank you, David.

[Anna Christina Naß]

Am 05.04.20 um 09:37 schrieb David Reese:

Hi,

Up till recently I also used ZS-DOS (the "Z-System" of RomWBW) on my RC2014.

The COPY.COM is nice, as it indeed can copy between user areas, but it
also is usable with PIPs syntax, e.g. COPY B2:=A0:FILE.EXT to copy
FILE.EXT from A0 to B2.

Btw, using ZS-DOS, you can also run commands from other user areas, e.g.
A0:COPY B2:=A0:FILE.EXT

Now, I'm using CP/M 3 and installed Z3Plus, a even more sophisticated
Z-System. Together with LSH, you even get a shell with history, ie. you
can use "cursor up" to get the last entered command(s).
You can get Z3Plus here, together with a PDF documentation:
http://gaby.de/ftp/pub/cpm/
(z3plus.pdf + z3plus.zip)
If you would like to stay with CP/M 2.2, then NZ-COM is the alternative.
I think, RomWBW delivers it now, too.
In the link above, you can find nzcom.zip + nzcom.pdf

One nice program that needs Z3Plus or NZ-COM is ZFILER, a very nice file
manager (included in Z3Plus or NZ-COM).

Oh, and using these Z-Systems, you can also "name" your drives and user
areas, e.g. instead of
A0> C2:
you can enter
A0> DBASE:
to go to C2 - so you don't have to remember on which drive/user you can
find dBase :)

Also, you can use aliases for programs or short sequences.
Using ARUNZ (included), you can make the Z-System check the ALIAS.CMD
file, and if the command you entered is not found on the (configurable)
path, ARUNZ is called to check ALIAS.CMD if an alias of that name exists.
Eg. I use the "D" alias found there quite often now, as I can use it
instead of "DIR" and also enter "D B2:D" which shows me "D*.*" on B2:

Have fun with CP/M! :)

Regards,
Anna

[Colin Little]

This link may help with the exchange of files between different users (other good info here too) http://www.shaels.net/index.php/cpm80-22-documents/using-cpm/6-pip-utility

For CP/M books , there are many here that you may find useful too : http://69.60.118.202/generic/generic-books-cpm.htm

On Sunday, 5 April 2020 07:54:38 UTC+1, David Reese wrote:

[Wayne Warthen]

On Sunday, April 5, 2020 at 1:31:23 AM UTC-7, Anna Christina wrote:

Now, I'm using CP/M 3 and installed Z3Plus, a even more sophisticated
Z-System.

Wow, nice to hear you have Z3Plus working Anna!  That is on my todo list.

 

If you would like to stay with CP/M 2.2, then NZ-COM is the alternative. 

I think, RomWBW delivers it now, too.

Yes, NZCOM is on slice 2 of the hd_combo hard disk image.  N.B., it *must*

be configured!  When you boot to that slice, you are actually booting ZSDOS.

NZCOM can be configured and run from there.  You will need to refer to the

NZCOM User Manual found in the Doc directory of the RomWBW

distribution.

[David Reese]

Colin, thank you so much for these links!  Bookmarked as a real trove, both of them.

Anna, I knew you were working with CP/M 3.  Thank you for your insights

[Richard Deane]

Anna - Thanks for nudging me to try Z3PLUS.

Just trying it on top of cpm3 on by sc131. Is there a trick to getting TCSelect to save a z3t file. I select VT100 and save but cannot find a created z3t file. I find Default and Ansi z3t files in z3plus.lbr or tcap.lbr, but extracting these and naming default.z3t on A: does not seem to work because after loading Z3PLUS the ZShow command is not showing proper screen formatting.

Any suggestions?

Richard

[David Reese]

Just to get going on what I really wanted to do, I used DDT to transfer all the files (about five) to User 2 where I wanted them.  It was good practice using DDT, so now I'm just a bit more comfortable with it (as in, comfortable free-handling a Northern Copperhead as opposed to an Eastern Brown Snake...)

The line of investigation into Z-System and CP/M 3.0 will have to wait for a while. I have some catching up to do.

Anyone who hasn't checked out the links http://www.shaels.net/index.php/cpm80-22-documents/using-cpm/6-pip-utility and http://69.60.118.202/generic/generic-books-cpm.htm that Colin Little posted needs to jet out there and see everything there - these links are both very useful resources for retro computing types.

[Anna Christina Naß]

Am 06.04.20 um 00:14 schrieb Richard Deane:

Hallo Richard,

> Anna - Thanks for nudging me to try Z3PLUS.
> Just trying it on top of cpm3 on by sc131. Is there a trick to getting
> TCSelect to save a z3t file. I select VT100 and save but cannot find a
> created z3t file. I find Default and Ansi z3t files in z3plus.lbr or
> tcap.lbr, but extracting these and naming default.z3t on A: does not
> seem to work because after loading Z3PLUS the ZShow command is not
> showing proper screen formatting.
> Any suggestions?

I had the same problem and it took me a while to figure it out :)
When using TCSELECT without any parameter, it sets the terminal
descriptor in the running system.
If you want to write it to a file, just append that filename to the
TCSELECT command, eg.
A0> TCSELECT VT100
and after selecting your terminal and exiting, the file VT100.Z3T will
be written.

The manual lacks this part :)

Regards,
Anna

[Richard Deane]

Thanks. I shall try that. Not obvious.
Richard