Vikings War Of Clans Seven Flames Of Odin
Linda Berens
It's okay, everyone around here will tell you to cite your sources, even if it only refers to your username. The path of the damned is to walk alone for all eternity
/IPhear the Phang!I\
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HG Alumnus posted 02 August 2003 09:18 PM EDT (US) 8 / 35 Thor's two sons survive, Vidar the avenger of Odin's death survives, Baldur survives. That's all I can think of at the moment. LePetitGiant
Mortal posted 12 August 2003 08:06 PM EDT (US) 9 / 35 Surviving Gods:Badlr - God of Light, Peace and Friendship, son of Odin and Frigga
Hodur - God of Blindness, son of Odin and Frigga
Forseti - God of Justice, son of Baldr and Nanna
Vidar - God of Silence, son of Odin and a Giantess
Vali - God of Venegance, son of Odin and a Vanir Godess
Magni - God of Strength, son of Thor and Jarnsaxa
Mogens - Magnis brother, son of Thor and JarnsaxaAll of them expect Baldr and his twin brother Hodur are quite unknown minor Gods. Baldr and Hodur by the way are dead when Ragnarok begins but escapes during the battle. Which of the Godesses that will survive is unknown. It is also unknown who of the Vanir that survives, but it is known that Freyr is killed. ---Summary---The Aesirs were bloodthirsty gods and the bronze and iron age in Scandinavia and Germany was cold and dark. Baldr was the absolute opposite of his violent father and brothers. He was friendly, peaceful and spread lightness whereever he went.Ragnarok can be seen as the end of the world, but also as a vision of better days to come. In Ragnarok all the old brutal Gods like Odin, Thor and Tyr will die together with their evil enemies Loki, Fenrir, Jormungand, Garm and Hhrym (Thrym). Surth burns the old world down and (probably) dies in his own flames, Nidhogg leaves the nine world looking for new worlds to devour (or in some versions gets killed by Magni). Hel goes down to (in some versions she is killed by Tyr before he is killed by Garm). In short; after Ragnarok the forces of darkness are forever gone. Left is the new panethon, lead by peaceful and good gods like Baldr and Forseti. Magni finds his fathers hammer and becomes the guardian of the new world and the silent Vidar replaces his father as God of War. To bring extra suger on the top of this cute story, all the former enemies forgives each other. Before Ragnarok Baldr and Hodur were arch enemies. Hodur tried to take Nanna away, rebelled against Aasgaard and ultimatly even killed Baldr (with some assistance from Loki). Now they forgive each other and becomes friends again, twin brothers as they are. Hodur in turn forgives his own slayer Vali. Oh, there is one more intresting thing...The most well known story of Ragnarok was written down by Snorri around 1000 ad. Snorri however was a christian and no pagan. Many belives that his version of the saga is inspired by christian mythology. Read them and think about it for yourself. Ragnarok or Harmageddon? Baldr or Jesus? Loki or Judas? Surth or Satan? Its not obvious, but there are quite som intresting analogies. Many historians actually claims that the precense of Baldr and Ragnarok in norse mythology made the process to convert the lands of the wild Vikings from paganism to christianity easier... [This message has been edited by LePetitGiant (edited 08-12-2003 @ 08:20 PM).] Jayhawk
Eminence Grise posted 13 August 2003 02:31 AM EDT (US) 10 / 35 A most interesting post, thanks Angel Jayhawk
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Mortal posted 14 August 2003 09:51 AM EDT (US) 11 / 35 Nice post!ESO: TheWiseDux, TheSmartDux, TheDuxGnothi Seauton redwolfalex
Mortal posted 14 August 2003 01:31 PM EDT (US) 12 / 35 coolio^Redwolf^
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Mortal posted 15 August 2003 10:32 AM EDT (US) 13 / 35 I think the creators of Norse mythology felt bad for Baldr, cuz he didnt get enough attention. Its kind of like when in LOTR Merry and Pippin are fierce Warriors and they get credit for saving the day because Tolkien felt bad for them.I told you I'd be back. Tlaloc123
HG Alumnus posted 15 August 2003 12:12 PM EDT (US) 14 / 35 I don't think you can call the chief Aesir gods as savagaes or barbarians. That was simply the way things were done back then. Personal honour and strenght above all else. I'm sure any Viking would immediately disagree with your statement.And yes, I have noticed the Christian similarities with Ragnarok, but I think it's safe to assume most of the occurences are original. After all, Snorri would only twist the facts to sound Christian, but would he invent new ones?And, just a minor point, Odin wasn't the God of War =D LePetitGiant
Mortal posted 15 August 2003 06:39 PM EDT (US) 15 / 35 Your right to some part. But savages or not, the contrast between Odin and Baldr is obvious. Im no historian, but am a semi professional writer and I do enjoy old norse mythology. I think that Odin was a dark and evil God and Baldr was a bastion of godness and light. What the people of the ancient times felt, nobody can know for sure. Odin was the classical norse God of war, there is absolutly no doubt about this. Yes, Tyr, as well as Hoenir, Ullr, Freya and Vidar, is also to some parts gods of war. In fact, Tyr seems to have been main God of the norse during the bronze and early iron age. Here we must remember that the classic norse Gods were worshipped well over 1000 years, perhaps from 100 ac to 1100 ad. Gods like Ullr, Njord and Nerthus by the way are supposed to have been worshipped even longer, like from 500 bc. Over this long time there were many changes in the panethon. Back to the point, compared to Odin Gods like Tyr and Ullr seems to be nothing but sidekicks during the the classical age of norse mythology (viking age 797-1066 ad). Odin was both the main God, the god of knowledge and the god of war. He was, according to most sagas, not very symphatic. He was brutal, a murderer and even a rapist (read about the mead of poetry or the death of Hodur for some examples). Odin had accoring to the sagas little intrest in humanity, exept to make sure they waged war against each other. Yes, he talks to humanity in Havaman, but thats all. I put no moral argumwnts in this, these were brutal times, but in classical norse mythology Odin seems to have mainly two goals:*Increase his own knowledge of the worlds - by sacrificing himself as well as others
*Gathering Einherjars for Ragnarok - only possible by war and death among humansWere all the old norse gods savages and brutes then? Did people hate and fear Odin? To answer this question we have to draw a line between the Gods that was important to common people and the Gods that was the main characters of the Sagas and legends. Most important Gods in sagas and legends: Odin, Loki and to some part Thor.
Most important Gods in cult: Thor, Freyr, Njord and Freya.There is little doubt that Thor, Freyr and Njord was the most popular Gods during norse iron age. In the sagas however the mean Gods Odin and Loki are the main characters. Personally I thinkt this is intresting. why this diversion? Nobody really knows, but it is persumed that gods like Odin and Loki was feared during the ancient times. Thor, Baldr and the Vanir Gods on the other hand was regarded as friendly and caring Gods with good relations to humanity. These were the Gods worshipped by commonn people. Odin and Loki, with their great knowledge and magical abilities were Gods for kings, jarls, raiders and wizards.If this facts plays any real matters to the story fo Ragnarok, I dont know. In fact, nobody can know. Almost all good sources to norse mythology was written down by christians. There is no good sources were old norse pagans explain their religion. In realty, we will never really know what they felt about thier Gods. Saurces refering to the early days of of norse mythology, before 750 ad, is very rare. So again, we can just speculate...I think Ragnarok must have been greatly feared by people in the old times, but perhaps also a glimse of better times to come for none-warriors, women and slaves.
[This message has been edited by LePetitGiant (edited 08-16-2003 @ 10:43 AM).] Rookierookie
Banned posted 17 August 2003 09:11 AM EDT (US) 16 / 35 The evil god seems to be Loki. WilliamtheBloody
Mortal posted 17 August 2003 01:27 PM EDT (US) 17 / 35 I think it can best be compared to our portrayal of the Aztec gods Huitzilopochtli (or Huitz for short), Quetzalcoatl (Quetz) and Tezcatlipoca (Tez). We see the worship of these gods and the practice of worshipping them as barbaric, but to the Aztecs (and some degree Mayans) they were extremely important, and an honor to serve.The key part of the Meso-American Religion was the gods needed sacrifices for strength. Tez supposedly was the first god of the sun, but he is also a god of darkness. Since you cannot have the sun rise and still be dark, he supposedly kept pushing it back down over the horizon. Quetzalcoatl (Tezcatlipoca's brother) became the new god of the sun and was responsible, until Tezcatlipoca used his smoking mirror and drove the feathered serpent mad. Out of shame, Quetzalcoatl hid his face and a new god became in charge of the sun.There have been many different guardians of the sun, but Huitzilopochtli guards them all. He was born as a god of war and fights back Tezcatlipoca each day. But he needs strength to do so--human hearts. The people at the time (or at least many of them) considered it an honor to help fuel the war god's fight against darkness and offered their lives to do so.Now apply this to the Norse. They felt it was an honor to die in battle in hopes of reaching Valhalla and serving the All-Father, Odin One-Eye. The people they invaded saw Odin as evil and war-like (but what viking god wasn't part of war? Every single one of them is "Love and war", "Beauty and war", "storms and war", "Wisdoma and war", etc.)If you want to label a god as a brute, I would say Thor is more brutish than Odin. Loki is more savage with his mischief. Odin seems to be the wisest. He is also symbolically the omniscient god (because of his ravens he can see everything).The path of the damned is to walk alone for all eternity
/IPhear the Phang!I\
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\I.........................I/ Tlaloc123
HG Alumnus posted 18 August 2003 12:25 PM EDT (US) 18 / 35 Studies suggest that Tyr was originally the God of War, as well as the supreme god of the norse pantheon. Eventually, however, he had aspects of himself shared out amongst Thor and Odin, and his importance fell with the gradual ascension of the other two. WilliamtheBloody
Mortal posted 18 August 2003 02:37 PM EDT (US) 19 / 35 It almost seems that the worship of Odin and Thor dealt with what economic class you were in. The wealthy (jarls) worshipped Odin, whereas Thor was the average working-man's god. It's an interesting religious system when you think about it.The path of the damned is to walk alone for all eternity
/IPhear the Phang!I\
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\I.........................I/ Tlaloc123
HG Alumnus posted 18 August 2003 07:52 PM EDT (US) 20 / 35 As for Will's Aztec post, I'm not sure it is all correct.Tezcatlipoca was not seen as the epitome of evil in Aztec society. Infact, Texcoco (the second member of the Triple Alliance, and the brains to the Aztecs brawn) worshipped Tezcatlipoca (The Smoking Mirror) as their supreme diety. While he was notorious as being a causer of pain and trouble, he was a god nonetheless that had to be satisfied. His magic mirror could glimpse into the soul of a person, and occasionally he would grant someones deepest desire if it amused him. The main reason the Meso Americans gave sacrifices were because, to them, the Gods sacrificed themselves to ressurect the world from utter darkness (Tezcatlipoca-caused or not). Therefore, the gods needed the very lifeforce of the universe to keep it from falling into Chaos, which was life itself (the heart was the symbolic centre of life.) You can liken it to Christ and his sacrifice. Would any Christian view his duty as a servant of Christ as barbaric, or wrong? Of course not.Besides, all victims of sacrifice were assured an afterlife with the god they were dedicated to. WilliamtheBloody
Mortal posted 18 August 2003 11:11 PM EDT (US) 21 / 35 Well, Texcatlipoca may not have been the Aztec version of Lucifer, but he was still a Loki/Set style character in the Aztec pantheon. Loki was not evil, but he was mischeivous to a more malevolent end. Set was a schemer.The path of the damned is to walk alone for all eternity
/IPhear the Phang!I\
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\I.........................I/ Jayhawk
Eminence Grise posted 19 August 2003 02:19 AM EDT (US) 22 / 35 Quote: