Asbestos Floor Tile Removal

[Steven Wilke-Shapiro]

I'm posting this question from a Rehabbers Club member who is having difficulty getting her message sent through the to the group:

We had icky popcorn berber glued over forest green 8.5"x8.5" asbestos tiles in our master bath. We took up the carpet and found our lovely surprise. YAY. To boot, the asbestos tile is glued down with that black tar-like adhesive that is asbestos laden, too. YIPPEE. We are trying to decide what to do. The bathroom will be getting a big reno down the line because it was perhaps the most ill-conceived layout I have ever seen, so we're evaluating what to do in the mean time.

The flooring guy tells me that he can fill the holes where the tiles broke and came up (about 7 tiles total broke and partially released during the carpet removal) and he can run right over it with vinyl. The only thing about this that doesn't appeal for now is that we will be doing a reno in there in a few years and that reno will include new flooring. I am quite OK with resigning myself to throwing vinyl over the asbestos and then embossing vinyl over that vinyl, if needed, but have some concerns about how many layers deep we'll be going by then.

From my understanding the black vinyl glue is more dangerous than the tiles, which should pop up if properly persuaded. We're still moving in, and are avoiding moving into our master until we decide and deal with this. One friend said to use a heat gun to pop the tiles up, but that then also blows fibers around.

I heard at the Renovation Boot Camp a plug for popping asbestos tile with dry ice, too. I'm not sure, given the black asbestos glue what my best option(s) are, but as an asthmatic I know that I don't want to screw up my indoor air quality. And given that this is a bathroom, there's always the concern about whether area(s) of subfloor will need replacement down the line, so we're kind of sitting here just closing off our master suite because we just don't feel we know enough to make an educated decision. Any wisdom would be appreciated. I'll be sealing the work area if we do anything other than a vinyl cover-up, which from what I understand poses no immediate risk because the asbestos has residual glue from the popcorn berber, and is for the most part stable. Thanks for any help.

I don't recall the discussion at the Renovation Boot Camp about using dry ice on asbestos tiles, but my gut reaction is that it sounds like a not-so-good idea.  It would seem to me that dry ice would make the tiles more brittle.  This would make them more likely to crack and release asbestos fibers.  I don't have any experience with this method, it just sounds like something I would want to research further before trying...

Practical and safe advice on how to deal with asbestos building materials is an area I would like to know more about... does anyone have a good resource for research?

[Barry Elings]

The EPA has a site: http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/pubs/ashome.html#4

The best site with common sense tips that I've seen so far is from Minnesota:
 http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/eh/asbestos/floortile/index.html

Key words in the removal of VAT and the adhesive is friable/non-friable. Grinding, sanding anything that release fibers into the air is to be avoided of course. I've heard the dry ice version many times and like Steve said it still involves the breaking up of tile. The better methods involve keeping the tile and /or adhesive wet.

The black adhesive is called "cutback" and there are chemicals that will soften and remove it. the drawback is they may interfere with the bonding power of any adhesive used for the new materials. If you are going to install tile for the new floor, be aware that there are specific thinsets rated for use over the cutback.

It is perfectly acceptable and often desirable to cover over the flooring as long as the remaining tile is non-friable.

As for the building of layers, I guess it depends on what flooring you plan on using in the bigger remodel and the level of any adjoining flooring. Another question is the amount of demo the future remodel will entail. Is the space being enlarged? And what's under the VAT now? wood floor? mud bed?

Barry

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From: swilke...@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 16:09:59 -0500
Subject: {RenovateDSM} Asbestos Floor Tile Removal
To: renov...@googlegroups.com

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[Valerie Cohen]

At risk of sounding like a horror film, "NO ONE KNOWS WHAT LIES BENEATH..." I don't have any idea what is under the asbestos tile, other than cutback. (Thanks for refreshing my memory on what to call that stuff.) The asbestos tile falls level with my adjoining master bedroom. (And asbestos tile is thicker than I realized, over an 1/8 inch thick!) My master bedroom will end up with carpet for now. The flooring in the bedroom that meets up with the asbestos also had that awful popcorn berber, with 2/3 hard woods (covered in the berber glue, if you could believe anyone would do such a thing) and 1/3 bizarre and stable wood-like underlayment that doesn't quite look like the OSB, plywood or particle board I'm used to seeing.

The space won't be enlarged, per se, for the future renovation. It's hard to explain without drawing it out. We will be removing a wall in the middle of the bathroom that has a shower behind one side and a toilet behind the other side. The wall is in the middle of asbestosville. If anything, we're considering shrinking the master bath to enlarge the family bath, which might call for 20% of the asbestos to come up so we can move the shower to another area where we can piggy back into the already available drain line.

Thanks for the links, by the way. I just wish I could make up my mind, with confidence, and get it done so I can have my master suite :)

Valerie

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From: Barry Elings <beel...@msn.com>
To: renov...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, June 24, 2011 6:01:01 PM
Subject: RE: {RenovateDSM} Asbestos Floor Tile Removal

[Barry Elings]

With the additional info, my vote would be to lay the vinyl over now and deal with the VAT and cutback when you do the major remodel. If you would be taking out part of the floor then, may as well deal with it at the same time and why you are already making a bigger "mess". You'll have to remove the new vinyl anyway and it's cost effective IMO.

 At that time if it's practical, I would try to remove the wood under the cutback along with the other layers and not have to deal with scraping up the cutback. That way you can control the height of the new floor a little better.

Encapsulating the VAT with vinyl now is an accepted practice as long as there is not broken or loose pieces left underneath it will be non-friable.

Barry

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Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 17:17:45 -0700
From: valerie...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: {RenovateDSM} Asbestos Floor Tile Removal

[SF]

Hello.

 

 I just thought I would tell my view on this. I am an old carpenter and house renovator and do things the old ways. Here is how I would handle this;

 

 Get good filter mask, not a dust mask, get some water in a garden type srayer
were gloves and a long sleeve shirt. Use a shovel with a sharp point , a foor scraper. a hammer and chisel or whatever  else will work and go in there and get rid of all that tile.

 

Double wrap it in heavy plastic bags and be nice and tell them at the landfill , by Pleasnt Hill ,what is in it. Cover the cutback with new underlayment and quality finish flooring and rest easy.

 

 I just do not believe that amount of tile is going to hurt you much more than all of the other dust and lead in your old house or all of the chemicals in a new house would.

 

 Cut the drama and get to work !

[marlon]

This is just my opinion, but the hazard is far overstated. I went to a legal seminar on asbestos removal about 10 years back and the government lawyer said there was no case of home owners contracting an asbestos related disease. Still precautions are appropriate. I have removed asbestos and follow the basic safety rules. Use a HEPA mask and properly dispose of the cartridge when done. (Men, i guess women too, must be clean shaved each day.) Seal the room as best you can. Use a HEPA air filter and dispose of the cartridges when done. I let the air filter run for a week or more and then just bagged the whole machine with the asbestos material. If not friable, it has about zero risk, but the air filter makes me feel better. Double bag your material and properly dispose .   As for removal, I would take an old towel and soak it with watter, lay on the tile and break it up into the water logged towel and both then go into the double bag for disposal.     The black glue is not friable so there is no risk. I would test soapy water, paint thinner then paint stripper to see what lifts it off best, if you cannot dispose of the base completely. (First choice is to dispose of the underlayment too.) Soak it and scrape with paint scraper and or scrub it with Brillo type pads and have a gazillion paper towels to wipe it up and put into the doubled trash bags. Always scrape and scrub when wet.   Keep in mind that asbestos is still mined in this world. When I visited Zimbabwe in 1996, my host had worked as a supervisor at an asbestos mine for 13 years. The only protection they used was a piece of cloth over their mouth and nose. That mine closed in 2004 and now Zimbabwe wants to reopen it.  Good grief.   Go for it renovators. It will look beautiful when done. See also:   http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/HomeAndCommunity/Planning/DoingWorkYourself/DG_10022562 The information transmitted is intended for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material legally protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C.sec.2510-2521 and other state and federal laws. Any review, transmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. --- On Fri, 6/24/11, Valerie Cohen <valerie...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Barry Elings]

Not to take issue with many viewpoints, the hazard may be overstated for occasional encounters, but better safe than sorry. I have family and friends who I wish had been informed enough to be safer in the day. As for me, time will tell :)

I will take exception to cutback not being friable. If the cutback was still gummy, it wouldn't be easily friable because the asbestos fibers are stuck within the goo making it tougher to become airborne.

 But if the cutback is hard and brittle, as is usually the case in old houses it is easily made friable with sanding, grinding or many other operations. The key is not to take chances and either keep it damp or remove it completely without touching it directly

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Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 08:07:01 -0700
From: marlo...@yahoo.com

[Porter, Jack [DCA]]

Just don’t use heat to remove the gunk. That is one of the reasons Old Capitol lost the dome. I personally like the dry ice treatment make the gunk brittle.  

 

Jack C. Porter

Preservation Consultant

State Historical Society of Iowa

600 East Locust

Des Moines, IA 50319

(515) 242-6152

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[Valerie Cohen]

That's one of the reasons the dome was lost? Geez. Well... perhaps somewhat anti-climacticly, we went over it with vinyl for now. At least this way we can begin to enjoy our master suite. There are other projects that I need to jump into with both feet, and the removal issues seemed to be driving me battier than I needed to get. I'll get into some of the other projects for now, and down the line when we reno the master bath, I'll have had more time to weigh options and learn from others. I'm curious what an air quality test turns up after each of the discussed methods.

 

Valerie

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From: "Porter, Jack [DCA]" <Jack....@iowa.gov>
To: "renov...@googlegroups.com" <renov...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tue, June 28, 2011 5:43:24 PM