technical tracking...

[l e]

Johnny was asking me about tracking the progress of the reforms, I think he might have gotten the impression I have more skills then I do, other options may be better.

1 exhibit

anyway he was impressed with my legislation exhibit http://dublinstreams.blogspot.com/2011/01/irish-government-legislation-exhibit.html but I'm only reusing the opensource work of David Huynh at CSAIL, MIT  

http://www.simile-widgets.org/exhibit/ he created google refine aswell you can see some similarity, the faceting is the best thing about it. You can kind of turn simile timeline into a Gantt Chart http://simile-widgets.googlecode.com/svn/timeline/trunk/src/webapp/examples/test_example3/test_example3.html but you can't have different sections on the one line. You can run it off a google spreadsheet or an xml file, there were ways to run it off an rss feed but they've lapsed but somebody at http://www.deri.org had set up a little php script to do that, might be able to get them to set it up again. And this is was all partly based and inspired by http://thestory.ie/2010/06/22/oireachtas-bills-1997-2010/

of course the best example of this is http://manybills.researchlabs.ibm.com/ although its a high level bespoke project.

but I don't quite think exhibit is the right tool for reformcard, I have my own ideas, but from the description of your project I don't see how the exhibit system could work, I thought you'd be more hand updating as events occurred, My flaw is to design things with too much stuff on screen although I was just trying to find every category I could and figure out the legislation process. I used http://scraperwiki.com/ and got some help with the coding http://scraperwiki.com/scrapers/irish-legislation-ruby-copy/ you could make simpler graphs to display certain activities to people http://scraperwiki.com/views/vca-view-sqlite/ if someone had better coding skills then I. 

you could use it within drupal http://drupal.org/project/exhibit or just the timeline part http://drupal.org/project/timeline or within semanticmediawiki http://projects.csail.mit.edu/wibit/wiki/index.php?title=Wibit I haven't quite got that working which is why I was asking Ultan about it. Its a few years old now and wasn't being actively worked on but they are making Exhibit 3.0 http://groups.google.com/group/simile-widgets/browse_thread/thread/1b8edd2be609ac6d?hl=en which is being worked this summer. 

others

thats everything I know, I swear, Johnny :) I was fiddling with google spreadsheet forms and charts and drupal but Paul Dixon's work http://myhq.eu/reformcard/gdata4.html and your and Joe http://www.reformcard.com did a quicker better job then I could have.

other options which may be more achievable and be able to be connected to the work already done http://www.designinginteractive.com/code/how-to-build-a-gantt-chart-with-the-google-charts-api/ http://lifehacker.com/#!5070701/add-a-gantt-chart-to-your-google-spreadsheet http://woork.blogspot.com/2007/12/gantt-chart-by-using-google.html 

the work on the gdata charts was quite clever and very clear, I did find this http://drupal.org/project/priorities I don't know if this duplicates some of the work the google data charts, but if you could connect them it might do some of what your looking for, drupal.org isn't very good for working examples so Im not sure quite what it does.

gantt charts are a little rigid and little ugly which is why I was suggesting making an Irish version of this how a bill becomes a law chart http://www.mikewirthart.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/howlawsmadeWIRTH2.jpg, to figure out if a gantt chart could reflect the stages needed to implement the reforms, I'd guess the stages might involved green and white papers, legislation, committees, seanad/dail debates and votes, citizen assemblies, referendums etc etc. Apart from hand updating a table as the reforms progress, design wise I'd prefer a bigger bolder gantt chart to reflect the reform goals scorecard but I scoured the drupal modules to find a project management framework system, didn't find one. Maybe we need a pert chart, wheres there is more then one way to get to an end point, this is why I was looking for Joe Curtin's OECD climate legislation progress tracking work I think he'd know more about that then I.

2 open atrium as somebody else already pointed out maybe suitable for this. I agree.

http://openatrium.com/  was developed for NGO type work, and they use the casetracker module  http://drupal.org/project/casetracker which you can create a simple ticketing system, a % done bar, and text descriptions or 

 you can use with a gantt chart http://drupal.org/project/views_jsgantt aswell, 

this person was working on a D7 version last summer not 100% he's got it working but this is where its at http://activismlabs.org/2010/05/25/open-atrium-case-tracker-for-drupal-7/ 

tried to install OA and CT, didn't quite get everything working, ie ways to bulk import info, I wish it could be automated but thats a pipedream, It would be good if we could atleast pull in the information which could then be reviewed by the political researchers and published. It wouldn't be too hard to set up feeds that would keep an eye on any mention of specifics reforms or pieces of legislation in the press or from http://www.oir.ie, it would be great if the people working in the oireachtas could create an ical based calendar that we could pull dates from but there nothing in their plans about that http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=15525&CatID=93 . http://www.mysociety.org and John @handelaar http://www.kildarestreet.com is the closest we've got, I think he's working on adding committee info so may be possible to add feeds from them.

I'd been heading towards using semanticmediawiki in my little projects http://projects.csail.mit.edu/wibit/wiki/index.php?title=Wibit maybe be useful to pull in info from dbpedia rather then duplicate, but I couldn't quite get it working on my server either :/

anyway drupal is more user friendly on the front end at least, I'd be happy to meet up with people more technical minded people and try see what can be done for the second stage if you wish in the next couple of weeks. maybe on the same day that open data talk is on? that might a attract a group of like minded people to turn up if not reset ireland's event later.

[Johnny Ryan]

Paul,

Thanks for getting the ball rolling. I guess the question is, which
option is

1. easiest to implement and most robust
2. will enable us to visually show breaks in the process when things
have not proceeded as they should have

Johnny

On Feb 7, 6:25 pm, l e <expectationl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Johnny was asking me about tracking the progress of the reforms, I think he
> might have gotten the impression I have more skills then I do, other options
> may be better.
>

> *1 exhibit*
> anyway he was impressed with my legislation exhibithttp://dublinstreams.blogspot.com/2011/01/irish-government-legislatio...
> but
> I'm only reusing the opensource work of David Huynh at CSAIL, MIThttp://www.simile-widgets.org/exhibit/he created google refine aswell you

> can see some similarity, the faceting is the best thing about it. You can

> kind of turn simile timeline into a Gantt Charthttp://simile-widgets.googlecode.com/svn/timeline/trunk/src/webapp/ex...

> but
> you can't have different sections on the one line. You can run it off a
> google spreadsheet or an xml file, there were ways to run it off an rss feed

> but they've lapsed but somebody athttp://www.deri.orghad set up a little

> php script to do that, might be able to get them to set it up again. And

> this is was all partly based and inspired byhttp://thestory.ie/2010/06/22/oireachtas-bills-1997-2010/

>
> of course the best example of this ishttp://manybills.researchlabs.ibm.com/although
> its a high level bespoke project.
>
> but I don't quite think exhibit is the right tool for reformcard, I have my
> own ideas, but from the description of your project I don't see how the
> exhibit system could work, I thought you'd be more hand updating as
> events occurred, My flaw is to design things with too much stuff on screen
> although I was just trying to find every category I could and figure out the

> legislation process. I usedhttp://scraperwiki.com/and got some help with
> the codinghttp://scraperwiki.com/scrapers/irish-legislation-ruby-copy/you
> could make simpler graphs to display certain activities to peoplehttp://scraperwiki.com/views/vca-view-sqlite/if someone had better coding

> skills then I.
>
> you could use it within drupalhttp://drupal.org/project/exhibitor just the
> timeline parthttp://drupal.org/project/timelineor within

> semanticmediawikihttp://projects.csail.mit.edu/wibit/wiki/index.php?title=WibitI haven't

> quite got that working which is why I was asking Ultan about it. Its a few
> years old now and wasn't being actively worked on but they are making

> Exhibit 3.0http://groups.google.com/group/simile-widgets/browse_thread/thread/1b...

> which
> is being worked this summer.
>

> *others*
> *thats everything I know, I swear, Johnny :) I was fiddling with google
> spreadsheet forms and charts and drupal but Paul Dixon's workhttp://myhq.eu/reformcard/gdata4.htmland your and Joehttp://www.reformcard.comdid a quicker better job then I could have.*
> *
> *

> other options which may be more achievable and be able to be connected to

> the work already donehttp://www.designinginteractive.com/code/how-to-build-a-gantt-chart-w...
>
> http://lifehacker.com/#!5070701/add-a-gantt-chart-to-your-google-spre...

>  http://woork.blogspot.com/2007/12/gantt-chart-by-using-google.html
>
> the work on the gdata charts was quite clever and very clear, I did find

> thishttp://drupal.org/project/prioritiesI don't know if this duplicates

> some of the work the google data charts, but if you could connect them it
> might do some of what your looking for, drupal.org isn't very good for
> working examples so Im not sure quite what it does.
>
> gantt charts are a little rigid and little ugly which is why I was

> suggesting making an Irish version of this how a bill becomes a law charthttp://www.mikewirthart.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/howlawsmadeWIR...,

> to figure out if a gantt chart could reflect the stages needed to implement
> the reforms, I'd guess the stages might involved green and white papers,
> legislation, committees, seanad/dail debates and votes, citizen assemblies,
> referendums etc etc. Apart from hand updating a table as the reforms
> progress, design wise I'd prefer a bigger bolder gantt chart to reflect the
> reform goals scorecard but I scoured the drupal modules to find a project

> management framework <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_management> system,

> didn't find one. Maybe we need a pert chart, wheres there is more then one
> way to get to an end point, this is why I was looking for Joe Curtin's OECD
> climate legislation progress tracking work I think he'd know more about that
> then I.
>

> *2 **open atrium* as somebody else already pointed out maybe suitable for

> this. I agree.
>
> http://openatrium.com/ was developed for NGO type work, and they use the

> casetracker module  http://drupal.org/project/casetrackerwhich you can

> create a simple ticketing system, a % done bar, and text descriptions or

>  you can use with a gantt charthttp://drupal.org/project/views_jsgantt

> aswell,
>
> this person was working on a D7 version last summer not 100% he's got it

> working but this is where its athttp://activismlabs.org/2010/05/25/open-atrium-case-tracker-for-drupa...

>
> tried to install OA and CT, didn't quite get everything working, ie ways to
> bulk import info, I wish it could be automated but thats a pipedream, It
> would be good if we could atleast pull in the information which could then
> be reviewed by the political researchers and published. It wouldn't be too
> hard to set up feeds that would keep an eye on any mention of specifics

> reforms or pieces of legislation in the press or fromhttp://www.oir.ie, it

> would be great if the people working in the oireachtas could create an ical
> based calendar that we could pull dates from but there nothing in their
> plans about thathttp://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=15525&CatID=93

>  .http://www.mysociety.or<http://www.mysociety.org>g<http://www.mysociety.org>
>  and John @handelaar <http://twitter.com/handelaar>
> http:/<http://www.kildarestreet.com>
> /www.kildarestreet.com<http://www.kildarestreet.com> is the closest we've

> got, I think he's working on adding committee info so may be possible to add
> feeds from them.
>

> I'd been heading towards using semanticmediawiki in my little projectshttp://projects.csail.mit.edu/wibit/wiki/index.php?title=Wibitmaybe be

[gerryk]

If, at this point, maybe Johnny or Joe might step in with some model data for tracking, we could mock up some visuals using some of the tools mentioned above.

Flot is another lightweight charting API... an example of what it can do here... http://jumware.com/Includes/jquery/Flot/Examples/Gantt.html#connect

and here... http://davidwalsh.name/jquery-flot

It's very lightweight, and seems straightforward.

http://code.google.com/p/flot/

[gerryk]

This http://dublinstreams.com/tds/exhibit/legislation.html

Is really impressive, BTW. Is it applicable in this instance?  Are we modelling similar data?

What sort of backend is this running off? A google spreadsheet or something more involved?

[gerryk]

I can also see how this http://www.simile-widgets.org/timeline/

might be co-opted into the sort of display I think is required.

[gerryk]

On Thursday, February 10, 2011 11:10:46 PM UTC, gerryk wrote:

If, at this point, maybe Johnny or Joe might step in with some model data for tracking, we could mock up some visuals using some of the tools mentioned above.

I suppose really, what's required is an idea of the workflow that is to be represented. i.e. the stages and dependencies involved.

[gerryk]

Just came across another very interesting visualisation tool... http://flare.prefuse.org/
It's flash, so that a -ve IMO, but it provides amazing interactivity and some very creative visualisations.
Definitely worth a look.

[Johnny Ryan]

Cool. Some great tools there.

What we need is a system that shows the stages of the legislative
process, that is capable of allowing explanatory text to be linked at
different points, and which can visually convey the idea of various
tracks of movement at different speeds.
A Gantt chart is the solution I think.

We need something that follows Steve's explanation of the legislative
process (as at http://dublinstreams.blogspot.com/2011/01/irish-government-legislatio...
) and which we will be able to update with additional information as
it arises. Most importantly, it should be easy to visually see where
the legislation is not moving forward.

So the question is, can we get something up and running in the next 4
days?

Johnny


On Feb 11, 10:11 am, gerryk <ger...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just came across another very interesting visualisation tool...http://flare.prefuse.org/

[gerryk]

Should be able. Can you give me some actual examples. I have NO
experience in the political/legislative arena, and as such, don't have
any feel for the sort of data we are trying to represent.
Even a single 'thread' would be helpful, i.e. take a single piece of
legislation and describe what the steps involved are getting it from
draft to signing into law. This would then obviously feed back into a
particular area or reform too, right?

[Richard Fahey]

Just as an aside. The Oireachtas created a small video on this last
year http://www.youtube.com/user/oireachtasfilm#p/f/5/I3hw-fTLKN8
explaining how a Bill becomes law. It's at least an attempt to explain
the process - although it's very basic.

--
Richard Fahey | @faheyr | www.rfahey.org

[gerryk]

Thanks Richard

[l e]

try this 2

oh I didn't know flot did gantt charts, yes that seems the most feasible option, you could create something nice and quickly once you figure out the system http://jumware.com/Includes/jquery/Flot/Doc/JQuery.Flot.gantt.html certainly the quickest to get one case done but I imagine that they'd be 5x5 and more different reform cases to display with all the different reform categories and sub categories?

the next 4 days surely all you need is the gdata charts and forms paul dixon did for next thursday?

----

anyway if you've got more time and still determined to see where the simile widgets can go, this is documentation for exhibit http://simile-widgets.org/wiki/Exhibit you can see it can run off a google spreadsheet, xml or json, with xml converters needs to written or found for ways to input the data. this isn't a gantt chart http://dublinstreams.com/tds/exhibit/legislation.html theres only one step in each item, this is more like one, http://simile-widgets.googlecode.com/svn/timeline/trunk/src/webapp/examples/test_example3/test_example3.html but you can't run the timeline off a googlesheet but you can run it off the similar EditGrid

with a timeline you can force them onto particular lines as in test_example3, but not in exhibit, so it would be difficult to show the category, reform project and its stages all together one under each other, there maybe a way...

2 try this http://thecatchment.org/reform/timeline_sa/html/timeline.html I populated it by running a python script which made some xml from this google calendar http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=dublinstreams%40thecatchment.org&ctz=UTC that I quickly added some events to in the normal way, need to be invited to edit.

original found here http://campbell-lange.net/company/articles/googlemashup/ it allows for updating from a google calendar which might be better for input and allow people to enter both long term time-periods and short term, or specific dates. http://thecatchment.org/reform/timeline_sa/html/timeline.html have to figure out how to get different colours, and make it look better.

Listening to Joe Curtain on http://media.newstalk.ie/listenback/221/tuesday/1/popup talk about your plans they have for visually engaging way to track reforms, I wonder what they are and why there ringing me to meet them because I don't know what Joe has in mind. :), I'll happily point out some options, so you can go off and find people who can actually do this stuff quickly, I would thought you could look at http://processingjs.org/ or http://flare.prefuse.org/ or http://vis.stanford.edu/protovis/ex/ or http://www.adobe.com/devnet-apps/flex/tourdeflex/web/ if you had more time and resources and the world experts you could do http://manybills.researchlabs.ibm.com/

to be able to show the simplest overall progress on the frontpage and then drilldown, the ideal gantt chart would have expandable stages to show sub stages, as all the desktop gantt software has, I haven't found any examples of that in these newer programmable drawing systems but you could code it. flex would be the best chance at that but also the heaviest option.

I been looking for years for online opensource project management systems and gantt charts, I always wondered if you could use the software tracking tools to track non-software projects.

I was looking at case tracker and jsgantt view for drupal and trying to replicate this http://drupal.org/node/903772 (case tracker plus http://drupal.org/project/ct_plus and jsgantt http://drupal.org/project/views_jsgantt ), I wondered if all the project management tools for drupal if any of them were meant to be public facing and that you could force the groups view of the case tracker on the front page for everyone to see? I fear you can't.

On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 10:55 AM, Johnny Ryan <johnn...@gmail.com> wrote:

[gerryk]

Thanks for the reply, and the ideas...

On Friday, February 11, 2011 12:04:30 PM UTC, lostexpectation wrote:

try this 2

oh I didn't know flot did gantt charts, yes that seems the most feasible option, you could create something nice and quickly once you figure out the system http://jumware.com/Includes/jquery/Flot/Doc/JQuery.Flot.gantt.html certainly the quickest to get one case done but I imagine that they'd be 5x5 and more different reform cases to display with all the different reform categories and sub categories?

the next 4 days surely all you need is the gdata charts and forms paul dixon did for next thursday?

 

That is the plan alright. But, as you might guess, that's not the full story at all... this will be an 'in development' project for some time yet, I'd imagine.
 

anyway if you've got more time and still determined to see where the simile widgets can go

   .
   .

Listening to Joe Curtain on http://media.newstalk.ie/listenback/221/tuesday/1/popup talk about your plans they have for visually engaging way to track reforms, I wonder what they are and why there ringing me to meet them because I don't know what Joe has in mind. :), I'll happily point out some options, so you can go off and find people who can actually do this stuff quickly, I would thought you could look at http://processingjs.org/ or http://flare.prefuse.org/ or http://vis.stanford.edu/protovis/ex/ or http://www.adobe.com/devnet-apps/flex/tourdeflex/web/ if you had more time and resources and the world experts you could do http://manybills.researchlabs.ibm.com/

I sometimes wonder too. Thing is, the face you present to the world is often the aspirational version  of the face you present in private, and this applies as much to projects like this as anything. I would imagine that Joe & Johnny's ideas, while well formed conceptually, are relying on the likes of me and you and Paul et al, to make something realisable of them.
 

to be able to show the simplest overall progress on the frontpage and then drilldown, the ideal gantt chart would have expandable stages to show sub stages, as all the desktop gantt software has, I haven't found any examples of that in these newer programmable drawing systems but you could code it. flex would be the best chance at that but also the heaviest option.

That would be the ideal solution, or at least functional aspects of it, alright. I need to have a closer look at some of these tools to see if they can deliver some or all of the required functionality. Unfortunately, as you can imagine, time is of the essence, so if you have any experience that might shortcut the selection process, any input would be greatly appreciated.

I been looking for years for online opensource project management systems and gantt charts, I always wondered if you could use the software tracking tools to track non-software projects.

I was looking at case tracker and jsgantt view for drupal and trying to replicate this http://drupal.org/node/903772 (case tracker plus http://drupal.org/project/ct_plus and jsgantt http://drupal.org/project/views_jsgantt ), I wondered if all the project management tools for drupal if any of them were meant to be public facing and that you could force the groups view of the case tracker on the front page for everyone to see? I fear you can't.

 

Thanks for the contribution

[Johnny Ryan]

Gerry,

You asked for an overview of the legislative process we are tracking

Here is a sequence of the process as I understand it.

1. Process of approval by Government (consultation, stakeholders,
Departments etc., possibly in the form of a Green Paper).
2. Commencement of Bill in one of the two chambers (Dáil or Seanad –
generally in the Dail)
[Bill scored by reformcard]

3. Dail debate – the Bill may be amended
[If amended Bill may be rescored]

4. Dail committees – the Bill may be amended
[If amended Bill may be rescored]

5. back to the Dail for questions and vote

6. Bill is passed to the Seanad – may be altered here
[If amended Bill may be rescored]

7. Seanad committee system – may be altered here
[If amended Bill may be rescored]

(Note: at this point the Bill can be passed back to the Dail again)

7. Provided it passes both houses, it is passed to president to sign
into law as an Act

[Johnny Ryan]

Paul,

Dont worry about the Minority Report stuff Joe was saying, what we
need is as simple and comprehensible system for showing legislative
progress as can be built in the next brief window of time.

I mention 4 days because I need to get legislative research people on
board and able to test and use the system before we can speak to the
media properly about this. So ideally, we are looking at a narrow
window of time.

Johnny



On Feb 11, 12:04 pm, l e <expectationl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> *try this 2*

>
> oh I didn't know flot did gantt charts, yes that seems the most feasible
> option, you could create something nice and quickly once you figure out the

> systemhttp://jumware.com/Includes/jquery/Flot/Doc/JQuery.Flot.gantt.html

> certainly
> the quickest to get one case done but I imagine that they'd be 5x5 and more
> different reform cases to display with all the different reform categories
> and sub categories?
>
> the next 4 days surely all you need is the gdata charts and forms paul dixon
> did for next thursday?
>
> ----
>
> anyway if you've got more time and still determined to see where the simile

> widgets can go, this is documentation for exhibithttp://simile-widgets.org/wiki/Exhibityou can see it can run off a google

> spreadsheet, xml or json, with xml converters needs to written or found for

> ways to input the data. this isn't a gantt charthttp://dublinstreams.com/tds/exhibit/legislation.htmltheres only one step
> in each item, this is more like one,http://simile-widgets.googlecode.com/svn/timeline/trunk/src/webapp/ex...

> but
> you can't run the timeline off a googlesheet but you can run it off the

> similar EditGrid<http://code.google.com/p/simile-widgets/wiki/Timeline_EditGridXSLT>

>
> with a timeline you can force them onto particular lines as in
> test_example3, but not in exhibit, so it would be difficult to show
> the category, reform project and its stages all together one under each
> other, there maybe a way...
>

> *2 try this*http://thecatchment.org/reform/timeline_sa/html/timeline.htmlI

> populated it by running a python script which made some xml from this google

> calendarhttp://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=dublinstreams%40thecatchment...

> that
> I quickly added some events to in the normal way, need to be invited to
> edit.
>
> original found herehttp://campbell-lange.net/company/articles/googlemashup/it
> allows for updating from a google calendar which might be better for input
> and allow people to enter both long term time-periods and short term, or

> specific dates.http://thecatchment.org/reform/timeline_sa/html/timeline.htmlhave to figure

> out how to get different colours, and make it look better.
>

> Listening to Joe Curtain onhttp://media.newstalk.ie/listenback/221/tuesday/1/popuptalk about your

> plans they have for visually engaging way to track reforms, I wonder what
> they are and why there ringing me to meet them because I don't know what Joe
> has in mind. :), I'll happily point out some options, so you can go off and
> find people who can actually do this stuff quickly, I would thought you

> could look athttp://processingjs.org/orhttp://flare.prefuse.org/orhttp://vis.stanford.edu/protovis/ex/orhttp://www.adobe.com/devnet-apps/flex/tourdeflex/web/if you had more time
> and resources and the world experts you could dohttp://manybills.researchlabs.ibm.com/

>
> to be able to show the simplest overall progress on the frontpage and then
> drilldown, the ideal gantt chart would have expandable stages to show sub
> stages, as all the desktop gantt software has, I haven't found any examples
> of that in these newer programmable drawing systems but you could code it.
> flex would be the best chance at that but also the heaviest option.
>
> I been looking for years for online opensource project management systems
> and gantt charts, I always wondered if you could use the software tracking
> tools to track non-software projects.
> I was looking at case tracker and jsgantt view for drupal and trying to

> replicate thishttp://drupal.org/node/903772(case tracker plushttp://drupal.org/project/ct_plusand jsgantthttp://drupal.org/project/views_jsgantt), I wondered if all the project

> management tools for drupal if any of them were meant to be public facing
> and that you could force the groups view of the case tracker on the front
> page for everyone to see? I fear you can't.
>

> <http://manybills.researchlabs.ibm.com/>

[gerry k]

Thanks Johnny. Would these be best represented as discrete events on a
single timeline, or as blocks of time on a single timeline, or should
there be multiple timelines with each representing a specific... I
dunno, house perhaps?
Apologies for the dumb questions, but once it crystallises for me, I
can probably get a POC up pretty quick.
Regards
Gerry

Sent from my iPhone

[Johnny Ryan]

Good questions Gerry,
I think they would be blocks of time (as Steve has on his gantt). I
dont think anything happens in both houses at once, so we should be
able to have a single time line.

On Feb 11, 4:40 pm, gerry k <ger...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks Johnny. Would these be best represented as discrete events on a
> single timeline, or as blocks of time on a single timeline, or should
> there be multiple timelines with each representing a specific... I
> dunno, house perhaps?
> Apologies for the dumb questions, but once it crystallises for me, I
> can probably get a POC up pretty quick.
> Regards
> Gerry
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>

[gerry k]

Ok, so each timeline in the eventual composite view will relate to a
specific bill? This is starting to come together for me.

Sent from my iPhone

[Johnny Ryan]

Ideally. There may be some overlap, where one Bill contains elements
of one indicator and one other, for example. Or several bills may all
relate to one indicator. So we have to think about how we represent
them (clustered), but starting from the basis of the most simple chart
possible would give us flexibility.

On Feb 11, 4:56 pm, gerry k <ger...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ok, so each timeline in the eventual composite view will relate to a
> specific bill? This is starting to come together for me.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>

[Johnny Ryan]

Gerry and I have been thinking about how anticipated gaps in the
progress of a bill should be represented
For example, the summer break when the dail + senate are not in
session, should the bar representing whatever stage the bill was at
continue, or should there be a gap?
My instinct is that we should have have gaps only when unexpected
problems arise - so that a visitor to the site can immediately see
where progress has been stalled - but ideas welcome from anybody who
is used to working with Gantt and/or legislation.

Johnny

[Will Knott]

I thought the process was that committees worked during the recesses
(the summer break at any rate). If that is the case, then depending on
where the process is then there shouldn't be a gap.

Or is "Committee Stage" a single step in the Gantt?

Will

[Johnny Ryan]

Hi Will

Committee activity does continue through part of the recess, but there
is no activity in August (see for example http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=12479)

Travel through a single committee should - presumably - be a single
step, yes, unless you have an alternate idea?

Johnny

On Feb 14, 9:53 am, Will Knott <W...@WillKnott.ie> wrote:
> I thought the process was that committees worked during the recesses
> (the summer break at any rate). If that is the case, then depending on
> where the process is then there shouldn't be a gap.
>
> Or is "Committee Stage" a single step in the Gantt?
>
> Will
>

[gerryk]

Basically, I don't think there is any way to represent items in both a
temporal and logical view simultaneously... or at least not on the
same timeline.
The Simile timeline tool doesn't allow for varying steps, but, even if
it did, you could only represent the data in terms of (a) temporal
representation, i.e. where each item is represented by a block sized
in accordance with a fixed timeline background, and starting and
ending at fixed points on the background, representing the actual
dates of start and end, this will leave us with the situation where
items on the timeline are not completely contiguous, (b) where the
items are represented purely as logical items, and where the sizes and
positions of the blocks are not representative of any temporal data,
this would give us a situation where the logical ssequence of events
would be apparent, but not the times involved, or (c) where each
legislative item has its own discrete timeline. This would allow us to
position the items on a temporal background, and size them such that
the items fell contiguously on the background (no gaps), which would
give us, simultaneously a temporal overview and logical flow, albeit
where the durations are not representative.

Personally, I would go for (a) where the temporal data is accurate,
but leaves gaps in the timelline. These gaps could be filled in with a
'pending' item, though, or something that serves to remove the large
blank spaces.

[Johnny Ryan]

The guiding question is: what is the clearest way to show the viewer
that there is - or has been - a problem in the delivery of some reform
item?
Are we confident that A do this best?

Johnny

On Feb 14, 11:00 am, gerryk <ger...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Basically, I don't think there is any way to represent items in both a
> temporal and logical view simultaneously... or at least not on the
> same timeline.
> The Simile timeline tool doesn't allow for varying steps, but, even if
> it did, you could only represent the data in terms of (a) temporal
> representation, i.e. where each item is represented by a block sized
> in accordance with a fixed timeline background, and starting and
> ending at fixed points on the background, representing the actual
> dates of start and end, this will leave us with the situation where
> items on the timeline are not completely contiguous, (b) where the
> items are represented purely as logical items, and where the sizes and
> positions of the blocks are not representative of any temporal data,
> this would give us a situation where the logical ssequence of events
> would be apparent, but not the times involved, or (c) where each
> legislative item has its own discrete timeline. This would allow us to
> position the items on a temporal background, and size them such that
> the items fell contiguously on the background (no gaps), which would
> give us, simultaneously a temporal overview and logical flow, albeit
> where the durations are not representative.
>
> Personally, I would go for (a) where the temporal data is accurate,
> but leaves gaps in the timelline. These gaps could be filled in with a
> 'pending' item, though, or something that serves to remove the large
> blank spaces.
>

[gerryk]

One way to display this would be to create a blocking event in the
timeline... colour it red or something.
So... we have 3 primary block types...
1. actual events... coloured, say blue
2. filler... coloured grey
3. blocking events or failures... coloured red

What do you think?

[Johnny Ryan]

Yes - That sounds like a very good solution.

On Feb 14, 1:27 pm, gerryk <ger...@gmail.com> wrote:
> One way to display this would be to create a blocking event in the
> timeline... colour it red or something.
> So... we have 3 primary block types...
> 1. actual events... coloured, say blue
> 2. filler... coloured grey
> 3. blocking events or failures... coloured red
>
> What do you think?
>

[Johnny Ryan]

Yes - that sounds like a very good solution

[Johnny Ryan]

Gerry, you asked for an overview of the legislative process. After a
suggestion from Re at radarstation.co.uk, I thought it might be a good
idea to do a visual memo that shows the many stages of the process,
and also shows how often it might be necessary to tie in updated
scorecards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVPYj1owQ6g

Johnny

[l e]

have you able to find a way for a people to easily input data into the flot gantt chart?

yes no gaps for recess, I thought maybe you could put the dail year as pastel block of colour on the background?

i thought you'd have an expected date of completion and if it went over that the bar would continue and maybe change colour after.

reforms may stall but time goes on, not sure they exactly break. although you would put a marker at the date they stalled.

gantt charts show overrun by continuing past the bar below which is the next step, its bit subtle for people to see though.

i thought maybe you would have one overview chart for overall progress 5 areas, and then charts for each separate initiative elsewhere. 

you really need the politics guys and the softwares guy in the same room to sort this out

you're wrong to rush it.

[johnn...@gmail.com]

Paul,

Agreed - let's see if there is a way to get people in the same room. We are going to be running a major event on the 21st in the afternoon. I propose we continue progressing things as we are, but that we also meet after the event on the 21st (which will be at the sugar club in Dublin city centre).

Johnny


Sent from my HTC

[ré dubhthaigh]

Hi,

As Johnny mentioned above I suggested mapping out the legislative
process - Been doing a bit more thinking on the tracking - images show
what i've been looking at. I'm not a programmer / tech guy so not
trying to give anyone a heart attack but just thinking about some of
the ordering and structure of information.My notes are in red - hope
they make sense.

www.radarstation.co.uk/assets/110215_reformcard_tracking1.jpg
www.radarstation.co.uk/assets/110215_reformcard_tracking2.jpg
www.radarstation.co.uk/assets/110215_reformcard_tracking3.jpg
www.radarstation.co.uk/assets/110215_reformcard_tracking4.jpg

Main points are:
Am I right in thinking the focus is on tracking how a government is
doing in bringing it's programme of government onto the stature books.
(image 1)

Effectively what i've drawn is a series of progess bars - showing the
progress from the life of the parliament to the end goal of delivering
on all their election promises on that indicator.

Not sure of the logical jump from the reform card scoring manifestos
to the progress tracker - is the scale the same? As it currently
stands the reformcard seems value agnostic although particular courses
of action are implicit in the 25 indicators. This might change in
legislative part. I guess you are looking at rescoring based on
programme for government.

Anyways - It would seem that he most important thing to show is the
progress to political reform based on the indicators, rather than
individual pieces of legislation. For a casual user these might
quickly get too complex - especially if the key question you want to
know is are they progressing with 'local government' reform or the
like.

As I've indicated bills are structured around how they support a
particular indicator. Additional information such as Amendments
(changes +/- to score) or time is indicated around the progress bar -
rather than have progress mapped to a timeline.Time is only important
to indicate speed (number of days at particular part of process) or
delay - these are linked but not necessarily the same.The most
important things to indicate are progress towards goal and change in
commitment (i.e.scoring).

In terms of how you might work this up this is technically beyond me -
I'm not an interaction designer but I can do more detailed wireframes
if needed.

[l e]

nicework Re somewhat similar to mine, maybe Joe Curtin has figured all these things out already?

does the scorecard involve marking for best scheduling of the reforms, how many give time frames for the elements? and have you noted them. 

the two guides available in relation to http://www.youtube.com/user/oireachtasfilm#p/f/5/I3hw-fTLKN8 http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/bills28/guide.htm of course reform card is about the before and after the legislation part too.

could ya bulk invite the academics onto this list Johnny

you could simply use a desktop gantt program and then draw it nicer based how on that gantt and the way we figure out how to do it here, I've been unable to find a free online collaborative gantt chart system although http://gantter.com is nearest if you gave multiple people access to the one reformcard account.

http://openproj.org/ is good cos it has a PERT chart too,  then use an image map within drupal? to navigate the site, flot can act like that but still difficult to input data http://www.inkscape.org

if you only looking to do that once a quarter it'd be more then fine, now theres a matter if keeping track of all the things that may happen in the meantime in order to produce a new quarterly scorecard.

I attempted to sketch the legislation process, I have a google doc here its not the best drawing tool but the most open https://docs.google.com/drawings/edit?id=17lS--nXZsh-_Ch-1dCHaX10JsBDoPpp0orzuCukcXVM&hl=en_GB feel free to correct it, might need to look as good as this when its finished http://www.redbubble.com/people/mikewirth/art/5368386-1-how-our-laws-are-made

was looking for better free online diagramming software https://cacoo.com/diagrams/0qXEY36EjGAy3uP0  15 ppl can edit it if you explicitly invite them. if someone wants to set up their own, or request an invite, go ahead.

[ré dubhthaigh]

Hi le,

I'm sure Joe is looking at these things - not really sure about this
group or people around reformcard so don't want to be telling people
how to suck eggs.

I suppose the main thing I was getting at is that the aim of
visualisation should perhaps be showing movement towards completion of
a set of reforms rather than the passage of bills through the
oireachtas.

I'm not sure if the complexity of how legislation is made is necessary
(certainly at the top level) to communicate progress. Although
something like your diagram is massively useful as an explaination
tool or when users drill down to a more detailed level.

In terms of building it - rather than trying to graft it on to free
stuff, can think of a few other UX people who might be interested in
putting a bit of time into this to build frontend. Needs to be simple
and intuitive for the casual user.

Agree with not rushing this part - have a good few weeks to get it
right

ré

On Feb 15, 11:11 pm, l e <expectationl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> nicework Re somewhat similar to mine, maybe Joe Curtin has figured all these
> things out already?
>
> does the scorecard involve marking for best scheduling of the reforms, how
> many give time frames for the elements? and have you noted them.
>
> the two guides available in relation tohttp://www.youtube.com/user/oireachtasfilm#p/f/5/I3hw-fTLKN8http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/bills28/guide.htmof
> course reform card is about the before and after the legislation part too.
>
> could ya bulk invite the academics onto this list Johnny
>
> you could simply use a desktop gantt program and then draw it nicer based
> how on that gantt and the way we figure out how to do it here, I've been

> unable to find a free online collaborative gantt chart system althoughhttp://gantter.comis nearest if you gave multiple people access to the one
> reformcard account.
>
> http://openproj.org/is good cos it has a PERT
> chart<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Program_Evaluation_and_Review_Technique>too,

>  then use an image map within drupal? to navigate the site, flot can

> act like that but still difficult to input datahttp://www.inkscape.org

>
> if you only looking to do that once a quarter it'd be more then fine, now
> theres a matter if keeping track of all the things that may happen in the
> meantime in order to produce a new quarterly scorecard.
>
> I attempted to sketch the legislation process, I have a google doc here its

> not the best drawing tool but the most openhttps://docs.google.com/drawings/edit?id=17lS--nXZsh-_Ch-1dCHaX10JsBD...
> feel
> free to correct it, might need to look as good as this when its finishedhttp://www.redbubble.com/people/mikewirth/art/5368386-1-how-our-laws-...

[Johnny Ryan]

Hi all,

Update on events: We launched the scorecard system today - lots of
interest from political correspondents, and a bit of controversy from
some parties who scored lower than they would have preferred.
So far so good.

Is there an emerging consensus that more time is needed to get
something that can convey progress + problems clearly? (thanks for the
diagrams Re - really great)

If so, there is a time constraint that we have to keep in mind. The
programme for government will probably be released in the first week
of March. To maintain public interest it needs to be ready to
demonstrate by then.


Johnny

[Richie]

Thanks for saying this; I couldn't figure out how. It's difficult to
see how to objectively measure progress other than legislation,
though. I'm taking a look at KildareStreet.com and other sources to
see what we can use as measures.

[ré dubhthaigh]

Hi Riche,

Agree it is difficult to measure other progress outside of legislation
objectively - but maybe thats ok and that reformcard is just for
measuring of legislative progress.

If you drill down under each of the 25 indicators there are probably
some measures that can show on the ground progress outside of
legislation, but these would be on a indicator by indicator basis and
provide different levels of granularity.Some of this information would
probably be available via local councils and individual depts but not
sure about how irish system works.

For example under 'Hiring form outside the civil service' this could
be % hires from outside CS in each government department per quarter,
number of senior officals recruited from outside civil service per
year, previous employment/industry/sector of external hires (i.e if
they just all move from quangos this might not really be within spirit
of reform).I suppose this would be about drilling down with the
Academic Panel plus current / ex policy/government people to see what
best supports the indicator.

Important to avoid falling into a trap like in UK where targets and
outputs had replaced outcomes and it is easy to game the system
without actually making progress. Particularly if reformcard starts to
lead the debate (likely) then these might become de-facto targets/
measures for policy makers and preclude alternative ways of achieving
the same outcomes. For example, I personally think a Dept of Public
Sector Reform is the wrong way to go and that I can (and do) drive
reform much better at other scales within PS. Rather than having too
rigid indicators that makes this a negative if alternatives achieve
the outcomes wanted then doesn't matter.

Initially I would focus on legislation as the this will be the easiest
to track. I would say though that the high level view should be around
the 5 main indicators not the actual legislation.

It might also be good to do some thinking around potential other
measures under the 25 indicators and look at what would be good to
measure now to provide a starting point for tracking. at most I would
say 2-3 KPIs under each, that can be scrapped, altered or added to
over time, otherwise you start to lose the spirit of the main reform
indicator and the emphasis on outcomes.

Practically:
Focus visualisation effort for Platform for government on legislative
progress for now.
Canvas academic panel, party / CS people and others (think tanks /
lobby groups?) for potential measures under each of the 25 indicators.
Refine these down to 2-3 strong ones that show some progress.I think
its about intent and don't need to be 100% perfect - just that if
these 2-3 practical things were happening then we would have an idea
that things are progressing along the right way.
Figure out how to get his info, and benchmark from particular date
(i.e first day of new government).

I realise I'm moving this conversation away from technical tracking
and data visualisation so can start another thread on this. This kind
of thing is more what i get up to in the day job so can take more of
an active role if needed.

[Richie]

On Feb 19, 12:32 pm, ré dubhthaigh <dubhtha...@googlemail.com> wrote:
......

> For example under 'Hiring form outside the civil service' this could
> be % hires from outside CS in each government department per quarter,
> number of senior officals recruited from outside civil service per
> year, previous employment/industry/sector of external hires (i.e if
> they just all move from quangos this might not really be within spirit
> of reform).I suppose this would be about drilling down with the
> Academic Panel plus current / ex policy/government people to see what
> best supports the indicator.

I'm tempted to suggest a weighted average of outside hires/grade; I
haven't thought it through thoroughly enough to stand behind it, but I
advance it as a point for discussion.

> Important to avoid falling into a trap like in UK where targets and
> outputs had replaced outcomes and it is easy to game the system
> without actually making progress. Particularly if reformcard starts to
> lead the debate (likely) then these might become de-facto targets/
> measures for policy makers and preclude alternative ways of achieving
> the same outcomes. For example, I personally think a Dept of Public
> Sector Reform is the wrong way to go and that I can (and do) drive
> reform much better at other scales within PS. Rather than having too
> rigid indicators that makes this a negative if alternatives achieve
> the outcomes wanted then doesn't matter.

There's a saying for this: "What gets measured gets done." People like
having concrete outcomes, something they can point to and say "We did
that." (thus grade inflation; the Dept. Of Education pointing to the
number of students getting good marks on the Leaving Cert as a measure
of the Department's success). The corollary is, of course, give people
a measure, and they'll work towards it....

[Paul Dixon]

Nice sketches Ré,

I think something along those lines is the way to go, and can see how we can implement a usable front end quite simply.

Simple progress bars, with perhaps event lines marking specific steps (legislative etc, which can be drilled down for detail)

Scores are inevitably going to be "wooly" and up to the panel to indicate general progress (or slide) of specific reform goals.

I think Gantt charts might be useful for (more specifically) tracking legislative progress, as in lostexpectations's excellent work.

But I think these would be presented separately on the website (and may require significantly more work to implement)

P,~D