Lap joint on end of 2x4?
Winston
However, I don't want to.
I want to use my plunge router to place a 3-1/2" square lap joint
about 3/4" deep on the ends of several pressure treated 2x4s.
I will don a respirator first, no worries.
I've designed an machined jig to allow me to do
this but I want to know how you pro's would approach this
challenge before I search my junk pile for parts.
My Google-fu was not up to the challenge. Instead, it revealed
some table saw adapters.
My band saw refuses to cut anywhere near straight so that's out.
First prize answer would be an inexpensive jig I could pick up
at my local hardware store.
What would SuperWoodworker do?
Thanks!
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
Swingman
> The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.
>
> However, I don't want to.
Typically what would be done on site by an experienced framing crew
would be a circular saw to make multiple, close together shoulder cuts
at the proper depth, and a chisel to finish chopping the residue of
these cuts out.
Just one of many options ...
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
Winston
> On 4/26/2010 9:09 AM, Winston wrote:
>> The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.
>>
>> However, I don't want to.
>
> Typically what would be done on site by an experienced framing crew
> would be a circular saw to make multiple, close together shoulder cuts
> at the proper depth, and a chisel to finish chopping the residue of
> these cuts out.
>
> Just one of many options ...
I will give that a try.
Thanks!
--Winston
HerHusband
It would be difficult to safely cut a lap joint on the end of an 8 foot 2x4
using a table saw with a dado blade. Far too easy for the long board to
shift while cutting. Maybe with a proper jig, but I wouldn't try it.
> I want to use my plunge router to place a 3-1/2" square lap joint
> about 3/4" deep on the ends of several pressure treated 2x4s.
> I will don a respirator first, no worries.
A router would work fine, and it sounds like you're alerady set up for the
task.
I don't know what kind of precision you need, but for rough carpentry I
usually "dado" using my circular saw. For instance, if I want to "let-in"
a 1x4 diagonal brace in a stud wall. Just mark the outside edges where you
need to cut, then set your circular saw to the proper depth (3/4" in your
case). Make a cut on each cut line, then a series of cuts in between. For
construction work I usually just use the claw of my hammer to knock out the
thin strips and clean up the joint. If you need a finer joint, you sould
clean it up with a chisel.
Of course, it might be just as easy to make the cut with a handsaw. With a
sharp saw, it shouldn't take more than a few minutes to cut a half lap
joint.
Take care,
Anthony
J. Clarke
> The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.
>
> However, I don't want to.
>
> I want to use my plunge router to place a 3-1/2" square lap joint
> about 3/4" deep on the ends of several pressure treated 2x4s.
> I will don a respirator first, no worries.
>
> I've designed an machined jig to allow me to do
> this but I want to know how you pro's would approach this
> challenge before I search my junk pile for parts.
>
> My Google-fu was not up to the challenge. Instead, it revealed
> some table saw adapters.
>
> My band saw refuses to cut anywhere near straight so that's out.
>
> First prize answer would be an inexpensive jig I could pick up
> at my local hardware store.
>
> What would SuperWoodworker do?
>
> Thanks!
Machined jig?!?!?!?!
Clamp the 2x4s side by side. Clamp a scrap across them an appropriate
distance from the cut line as a fence. Clamp another 2x4 crosswise
along the ends for the router to ride on at the ends of the cut. Route
until done.
If this is difficult for you to set up you don't have enough clamps or
don't have the right kind of clamps. And nobody _ever_ has enough
clamps so go get some clamps if you need to.
>
> --Winston
>
>
dadiOH
After popping the uncut parts with a chisel, use a shoemaker's rasp (AKA 4
in hand rasp) to smooth the bottoms.
http://www.dick.biz/medias/sys_master/711049_01_P_WE_8.jpg
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
DerbyDad03
It seems to me that a fairly simple jig, based on the size of your
router base would make short work of this project.
I recently had to cut a number 3 1/2" x 1/2" deep recessed areas in
the middle of some boards and a simple frame made of 1 x 2 stock
clamped to the boards made quick work of them.
All you need is a square frame sized so that the router can only move
enough to cut a 3 1/2" square and a way to mount the jig on top of a 2
x 4.
How about this:
Size up and build the square frame and set it aside.
Take some scrap 2 X material and make a "U" shaped jig so that your 2
x 4's can slip into the "U", essentially giving you a "flat board"
just like I had. This will support your router as you rout the 2 x 4.
Mount the frame on top of this "U", positioned so the center of the
area you need to cut out is in the center of the frame.
Slip a 2 x 4 under the frame into the "U" and rout out your lap joint.
You can oversize the frame to allow the router to clean all of the
material from the end of the 2 x 4 and then just clean up the other
end of the joint with a chisel.
I don't know how this will come out, but I'll try a little ASCII
art...
The Frame:
|-------------------|
| |
| |
| |
| |
|-------------------|
The "U" (=) with 2 x 4 (x) inserted, obviouslY not to scale.
======================
=O==========O======O==
======================
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx =========
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx ======O===
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx==========
======================
=O==========O======O==
======================
Center the Frame over the "U", screw it where indicated (O) and rout
to your heart's content.
Winston
> Winston wrote:
>> On 4/26/2010 7:27 AM, Swingman wrote:
>>> On 4/26/2010 9:09 AM, Winston wrote:
>>>> The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.
>>>>
>>>> However, I don't want to.
>>>
>>> Typically what would be done on site by an experienced framing crew
>>> would be a circular saw to make multiple, close together shoulder
>>> cuts at the proper depth, and a chisel to finish chopping the
>>> residue of these cuts out.
>>>
>>> Just one of many options ...
>>
>>
>> I will give that a try.
>
> After popping the uncut parts with a chisel, use a shoemaker's rasp (AKA 4
> in hand rasp) to smooth the bottoms.
> http://www.dick.biz/medias/sys_master/711049_01_P_WE_8.jpg
Hokay.
This morning, I followed the technique mentioned by
you, Swingman and Anthony. (Thanks)
I have a confession to make. I am not Roy Underhill.
I'm an electronics tech with zero woodworking chops.
I placed the cuts at depth and chipped out the scrap between cuts.
So I got the general idea. I see that if I spent say 10 min. with a rasp
as suggested, I would eventually arrive at a surface flat enough to allow
a halfway decent looking workpiece, though I am dubious about my ability
to do that *twice*. :)
I've got 16 of these to do. Unlike you, my 'thrill of
creation' happens with other hardware and not with wood so much.
So next, I will try J. Clarke's suggestion because that sounds like it
would give me a good chance at a flat face surface, quickly.
I can afford to 'notch' the material then slice off the end if necessary.
Raw material is cheap. Time and talent are all but nonexistent here.
Thank you for your help, guys.
Winston
>
> It seems to me that a fairly simple jig, based on the size of your
> router base would make short work of this project.
>
(...)
> Center the Frame over the "U", screw it where indicated (O) and rout
> to your heart's content.
Two Great Minds, DerbyDad!
That is almost exactly what my machined jig looks like!
If I can't make any headway using J. Clarke's suggestion,
I'll go ahead and hog one of these out of some scrap aluminum.
DerbyDad03
re: I'll go ahead and hog one of these out of some scrap aluminum.
What? Why are you using aluminum?
Grab some scrap wood and drywall screws and throw this thing together
in 10 minutes.
dadiOH
Ten minutes? Nah, 1 minute tops. Maybe you didn't cut the kerfs close
enough together? Leave no more than about 1/8 between them, pop them out (I
usually use a screw driver), if one breaks high, slick it off with a wide
chisel (1" or better), use the rounded rasp side to smooth down.
___________
> So next, I will try J. Clarke's suggestion because that sounds like it
> would give me a good chance at a flat face surface, quickly.
Yes, a fence and doing multiple pieces at one time is a lot faster with
either saw or router. If you use a router, start at the outboard end so you
don't leave the router base hanging over thin air.
____________
> I can afford to 'notch' the material then slice off the end if
> necessary. Raw material is cheap. Time and talent are all but
> nonexistent here.
After you do a couple you'll be an expert :)
Winston
(...)
>
> What? Why are you using aluminum?
>
> Grab some scrap wood and drywall screws and throw this thing together
> in 10 minutes.
My mill can cut aluminum straighter than I can cut scrap.
:)
--Winston
keith Nuttle
it is to clean up.
In mathematical terms.
One cut between the two cuts determining the with of the lap = a lot of
time with the file or chisel.
An infinite number of cuts = very clean lap.
Something in between will make it easy to remove the excess wood, but
still make it quite easy to clean up the bottom surface. Usually if you
make the cuts in <quarter inches slices they come out pretty clean with
very little chisel of file work. Also a sharp chisel I find works
better the the file.
Morris Dovey
Oooooh! Ok - now I can be my usual trouble-making self...
Why not do your lap joints like this:
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/LLJ/
with something like this:
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/JBot/
:)
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
Robert Bonomi
Winston <Win...@bigbrother.net> wrote:
>The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.
>
>However, I don't want to.
>
>I want to use my plunge router to place a 3-1/2" square lap joint
>about 3/4" deep on the ends of several pressure treated 2x4s.
>I will don a respirator first, no worries.
>
>I've designed an machined jig to allow me to do
>this but I want to know how you pro's would approach this
>challenge before I search my junk pile for parts.
>
>My Google-fu was not up to the challenge. Instead, it revealed
>some table saw adapters.
>
>My band saw refuses to cut anywhere near straight so that's out.
>
>First prize answer would be an inexpensive jig I could pick up
>at my local hardware store.
>
>What would SuperWoodworker do?
Skilsaw (or equivalent), cut across the 2x4 at the proper distance from
the end, then use the Neander approach -- wide wood chisel and a hammer
to 'split' in from the end.
*WAY* less dust than the router will throw up.
Of course, you've got to be able to chisel a flat surface. for the lap.
To reduce the effort of Neandering, do a -series- of parallel custs with
the Skilsaw, then break the 'fingers' off, and clean up with the chisel.
DerbyDad03
You shouldn't really have to cut anything "straight".
The 2 x 4's for the base are already cut straight, you just have to
cut them to length.
The same goes for anything that you'll be using for the upper frame.
Any kind of scraps that can be laid out in a square will work,
including more 2 x 4's.
I really believe that you are over thinking this fairly simple
project.
Winston
> Winston wrote:
(...)
>> I am dubious about my ability to do that *twice*. :)
>
> Ten minutes? Nah, 1 minute tops. Maybe you didn't cut the kerfs close
> enough together? Leave no more than about 1/8 between them, pop them out (I
> usually use a screw driver), if one breaks high, slick it off with a wide
> chisel (1" or better), use the rounded rasp side to smooth down.
Ah! I was leaving perhaps 3/8" between cuts. I knew I was doing *something*
very wrong.
> ___________
>
>> So next, I will try J. Clarke's suggestion because that sounds like it
>> would give me a good chance at a flat face surface, quickly.
>
> Yes, a fence and doing multiple pieces at one time is a lot faster with
> either saw or router. If you use a router, start at the outboard end so you
> don't leave the router base hanging over thin air.
I tried J. Clarke's suggestion just now and it worked a treat.
It was noisy, somewhat slow and messy but left a *very nice looking* step
that required no further attention.
As you guys say, I will gang the planks and cut multiple at once.
I will leave extra length and a step on the 'waste' side to support the router.
Then I'll just flip them over and saw off the step.
I can't believe how nicely that worked! Thanks!
> ____________
>
>> I can afford to 'notch' the material then slice off the end if
>> necessary. Raw material is cheap. Time and talent are all but
>> nonexistent here.
>
> After you do a couple you'll be an expert :)
Heh!
Winston
> Depending on the number of cuts through the half lap depends on how easy
> it is to clean up.
>
> In mathematical terms.
>
> One cut between the two cuts determining the with of the lap = a lot of
> time with the file or chisel.
>
> An infinite number of cuts = very clean lap.
>
> Something in between will make it easy to remove the excess wood, but
> still make it quite easy to clean up the bottom surface. Usually if you
> make the cuts in <quarter inches slices they come out pretty clean with
> very little chisel of file work. Also a sharp chisel I find works better
> the the file.
Yup, you and dadiOH got to the key issue.
I left too much material between cuts and it resulted in much more
'post processing' than I would have been comfortable with.
I see now that leaving say, 1/8"-1/4" between cuts would have made
that a whole lot easier.
Doubtlessly someone makes a 7-1/4" circular saw blade with a wide kerf
(say 1/4"?) just perfect for this app.
Right now, I'm so pleased with the results of hogging out with the
router that I will stick with that method.
Thanks!
Winston
> On 4/26/2010 3:07 PM, Winston wrote:
>> On 4/26/2010 10:59 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> (...)
>>
>>>
>>> What? Why are you using aluminum?
>>>
>>> Grab some scrap wood and drywall screws and throw this thing together
>>> in 10 minutes.
>>
>> My mill can cut aluminum straighter than I can cut scrap.
>>
>> :)
>
> Oooooh! Ok - now I can be my usual trouble-making self...
>
> Why not do your lap joints like this:
>
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/LLJ/
>
> with something like this:
>
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/JBot/
>
> :)
Very nice, Morris!
Winston
(...)
> I really believe that you are over thinking this fairly simple
> project.
You are absolutely correct.
It turned out that I only *really* needed to constrain one direction
of one axis. So I clamped a piece of scrap aluminum square on top
of my 2x4 as a fence and routed my step. It turned out much nicer
than I thought it would and requires no cleanup. That'll do.
Thanks for your thoughts on this.
Winston
> In article<hr46q...@news4.newsguy.com>,
> Winston<Win...@bigbrother.net> wrote:
(...)
>> What would SuperWoodworker do?
>
> Skilsaw (or equivalent), cut across the 2x4 at the proper distance from
> the end, then use the Neander approach -- wide wood chisel and a hammer
> to 'split' in from the end.
>
> *WAY* less dust than the router will throw up.
>
> Of course, you've got to be able to chisel a flat surface. for the lap.
Yes. Please see my forth sentence.
> To reduce the effort of Neandering, do a -series- of parallel custs with
> the Skilsaw, then break the 'fingers' off, and clean up with the chisel.
Hi, Robert.
I may revisit this approach, particularly if I can find a circular
saw blade with a very wide kerf (1/4" or wider?).
My first attempt failed because I left way too much room between cuts,
as mentioned by other groupers.
My chisel-fu is not going to be up to your standard, so it may pay
me to continue to let the router create the flat surfaces I require.
That will be sufficient for the few pieces I need.
Robert Bonomi
Winston <Win...@bigbrother.net> wrote:
>On 4/26/2010 1:48 PM, Robert Bonomi wrote:
>> In article<hr46q...@news4.newsguy.com>,
>> Winston<Win...@bigbrother.net> wrote:
>
>(...)
>
>
>>> What would SuperWoodworker do?
>>
>> Skilsaw (or equivalent), cut across the 2x4 at the proper distance from
>> the end, then use the Neander approach -- wide wood chisel and a hammer
>> to 'split' in from the end.
>>
>> *WAY* less dust than the router will throw up.
>>
>> Of course, you've got to be able to chisel a flat surface. for the lap.
>
>Yes. Please see my forth sentence.
>
>> To reduce the effort of Neandering, do a -series- of parallel custs with
>> the Skilsaw, then break the 'fingers' off, and clean up with the chisel.
>
>Hi, Robert.
>
>I may revisit this approach, particularly if I can find a circular
>saw blade with a very wide kerf (1/4" or wider?).
I suppose you could put two blades on the saw. *grin*
an actual dado set, "wobble" or otherwise, is definitely not a good idea,
>My first attempt failed because I left way too much room between cuts,
>as mentioned by other groupers.
BTW, there's nothing that says you have to leave _any_ space between the
cuts -- you can take it all off with the saw blade. "Break it off, and
clean up with a chisel and/or rasp" just tends to be easier/faster,
particularly, when you're going 'along' the grain.
>My chisel-fu is not going to be up to your standard, so it may pay
>me to continue to let the router create the flat surfaces I require.
I'll merely point out that you don't _need_ "flat" surfaces, just that
the two surfaces to be joined 'match". This -is- easier to do, with a
bit of 'lay them to together and see where they bind'.
I'm not disparaging the way you're currently doing it -- if it works _for_you_
that's all that matters. <grin>
When the opportunity presents itself, it is always worthwhile experimenting
with alternative approaches -- who knows, one of them *may* fit you better
than the way you have been doing it. Of course, it may not, but you're never
going to know until you try it.
One other alternative to consider, *IF* you've got the space to stand the 2x4
_on_end_, and support it stably, is to use a "back saw" (hand saw with a
reinforced spine on the blade) to cut down the middle of the 2x4s, and then
lay them down and cut off one of the 'sides', either with the back saw, or
a power saw. This +does+ call for some skill with the back saw, to hold it
vertical as you get the cut started.
Winston
> In article<hr5ai...@news4.newsguy.com>,
> Winston<Win...@bigbrother.net> wrote:
>> On 4/26/2010 1:48 PM, Robert Bonomi wrote:
>>> In article<hr46q...@news4.newsguy.com>,
>>> Winston<Win...@bigbrother.net> wrote:
>>
>> (...)
>>
>>
>>>> What would SuperWoodworker do?
>>>
>>> Skilsaw (or equivalent), cut across the 2x4 at the proper distance from
>>> the end, then use the Neander approach -- wide wood chisel and a hammer
>>> to 'split' in from the end.
>>>
>>> *WAY* less dust than the router will throw up.
>>>
>>> Of course, you've got to be able to chisel a flat surface. for the lap.
>>
>> Yes. Please see my forth sentence.
>>
>>> To reduce the effort of Neandering, do a -series- of parallel custs with
>>> the Skilsaw, then break the 'fingers' off, and clean up with the chisel.
>>
>> Hi, Robert.
>>
>> I may revisit this approach, particularly if I can find a circular
>> saw blade with a very wide kerf (1/4" or wider?).
>
> I suppose you could put two blades on the saw. *grin*
> an actual dado set, "wobble" or otherwise, is definitely not a good idea,
We agree. 'Power tool racing' is for braver souls than me.
>> My first attempt failed because I left way too much room between cuts,
>> as mentioned by other groupers.
>
> BTW, there's nothing that says you have to leave _any_ space between the
> cuts -- you can take it all off with the saw blade. "Break it off, and
> clean up with a chisel and/or rasp" just tends to be easier/faster,
> particularly, when you're going 'along' the grain.
I grok.
>> My chisel-fu is not going to be up to your standard, so it may pay
>> me to continue to let the router create the flat surfaces I require.
>
> I'll merely point out that you don't _need_ "flat" surfaces, just that
> the two surfaces to be joined 'match". This -is- easier to do, with a
> bit of 'lay them to together and see where they bind'.
I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
Flatter would be better for that use, yes?
> I'm not disparaging the way you're currently doing it -- if it works _for_you_
> that's all that matters.<grin>
'Perfect' is the enemy of 'good enough'. I am not building a piano,
I am building a fence gate. :)
> When the opportunity presents itself, it is always worthwhile experimenting
> with alternative approaches -- who knows, one of them *may* fit you better
> than the way you have been doing it. Of course, it may not, but you're never
> going to know until you try it.
I agree.
> One other alternative to consider, *IF* you've got the space to stand the 2x4
> _on_end_, and support it stably, is to use a "back saw" (hand saw with a
> reinforced spine on the blade) to cut down the middle of the 2x4s, and then
> lay them down and cut off one of the 'sides', either with the back saw, or
> a power saw. This +does+ call for some skill with the back saw, to hold it
> vertical as you get the cut started.
I'm not interested in developing the technique necessary to make a proper
cut under these circumstances. That sounds like a lot of work and
frustration. I will let Mr. Router do that for now.
I appreciate your thoughts on this.
Swingman
> I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
> gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
> Flatter would be better for that use, yes?
Consider a "glue" that can be used with pressure treated wood, and be
aware that a lap joint is one joint, particularly in this application,
that, in addition to being "glued", needs to be either pinned or screwed
together.
Winston
> On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:
>
>> I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
>> gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
>> Flatter would be better for that use, yes?
>
> Consider a "glue" that can be used with pressure treated wood,
Whups. I guessed that the chemical treatment penetration would
be shallow enough that the core would remain reasonably unaffected.
I was thinking on the order of say 1/4" depth max.
I will have to check into this. Thanks for the heads up.
> and be aware that a lap joint is one joint, particularly in this application,
> that, in addition to being "glued", needs to be either pinned or screwed
> together.
Yup. I bought a couple boxes of chemical resistant square drive
fasteners from a local 'pro' lumber shop. I figured the shorter
fasteners for the lap corners and the longer fasteners to attach the
fence boards to the frame. Lag bolts for the hinges.
J. Clarke
> On 4/26/2010 7:14 PM, Swingman wrote:
>> On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:
>>
>>> I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
>>> gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
>>> Flatter would be better for that use, yes?
>>
>> Consider a "glue" that can be used with pressure treated wood,
>
> Whups. I guessed that the chemical treatment penetration would
> be shallow enough that the core would remain reasonably unaffected.
> I was thinking on the order of say 1/4" depth max.
> I will have to check into this. Thanks for the heads up.
The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way through.
Puckdropper at dot
news:hr5ug...@news7.newsguy.com:
>
> The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way
> through.
>
So, when you cut off a piece of pressure treated lumber, and only the first
1/4" or so is brown and the rest looks like regular wood (a little darker)
what's the difference between the brown and the yellowish center?
Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.
J. Clarke
> "J. Clarke"<jclarke...@cox.net> wrote in
> news:hr5ug...@news7.newsguy.com:
>
>>
>> The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way
>> through.
>>
>
> So, when you cut off a piece of pressure treated lumber, and only the first
> 1/4" or so is brown and the rest looks like regular wood (a little darker)
> what's the difference between the brown and the yellowish center?
Crappy treatment.
dadiOH
> On 4/26/2010 1:23 PM, keith Nuttle wrote:
>> Depending on the number of cuts through the half lap depends on how
>> easy it is to clean up.
>>
>> In mathematical terms.
>>
>> One cut between the two cuts determining the with of the lap = a lot
>> of time with the file or chisel.
>>
>> An infinite number of cuts = very clean lap.
>>
>> Something in between will make it easy to remove the excess wood, but
>> still make it quite easy to clean up the bottom surface. Usually if
>> you make the cuts in <quarter inches slices they come out pretty
>> clean with very little chisel of file work. Also a sharp chisel I
>> find works better the the file.
>
> Yup, you and dadiOH got to the key issue.
>
> I left too much material between cuts and it resulted in much more
> 'post processing' than I would have been comfortable with.
> I see now that leaving say, 1/8"-1/4" between cuts would have made
> that a whole lot easier.
>
> Doubtlessly someone makes a 7-1/4" circular saw blade with a wide kerf
> (say 1/4"?) just perfect for this app.
Put on more than one blade.
dadiOH
> On 4/27/2010 12:36 AM, Winston wrote:
>> On 4/26/2010 7:14 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>> On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:
>>>
>>>> I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
>>>> gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
>>>> Flatter would be better for that use, yes?
>>>
>>> Consider a "glue" that can be used with pressure treated wood,
>>
>> Whups. I guessed that the chemical treatment penetration would
>> be shallow enough that the core would remain reasonably unaffected.
>> I was thinking on the order of say 1/4" depth max.
>> I will have to check into this. Thanks for the heads up.
>
> The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way
> through.
Nope. Either that or you can get better PT than I can. There are also
different strengths of PT; eg, ground contact, direct burial, etc.
I have always heard - and agree - that if you cut a piece of PT the
resultant raw wood should receive an application of a fungicide. I always
do so with Cuprinol.
Winston
> Winston wrote:
(...)
>> Doubtlessly someone makes a 7-1/4" circular saw blade with a wide kerf
>> (say 1/4"?) just perfect for this app.
>
> Put on more than one blade.
Oh! You guys weren't kidding?
I shall try that.
Winston
> On 4/27/2010 12:36 AM, Winston wrote:
>> On 4/26/2010 7:14 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>> On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:
>>>
>>>> I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
>>>> gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
>>>> Flatter would be better for that use, yes?
>>>
>>> Consider a "glue" that can be used with pressure treated wood,
>>
>> Whups. I guessed that the chemical treatment penetration would
>> be shallow enough that the core would remain reasonably unaffected.
>> I was thinking on the order of say 1/4" depth max.
>> I will have to check into this. Thanks for the heads up.
>
> The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way through.
That'll be the thing I learned today. Thanks!
Larry Jaques
bon...@host122.r-bonomi.com (Robert Bonomi) scrawled the following:
>In article <hr5ai...@news4.newsguy.com>,
>Winston <Win...@bigbrother.net> wrote:
>>On 4/26/2010 1:48 PM, Robert Bonomi wrote:
>>> In article<hr46q...@news4.newsguy.com>,
>>> Winston<Win...@bigbrother.net> wrote:
>>
>>(...)
>>
>>
>>>> What would SuperWoodworker do?
>>>
>>> Skilsaw (or equivalent), cut across the 2x4 at the proper distance from
>>> the end, then use the Neander approach -- wide wood chisel and a hammer
>>> to 'split' in from the end.
>>>
>>> *WAY* less dust than the router will throw up.
>>>
>>> Of course, you've got to be able to chisel a flat surface. for the lap.
>>
>>Yes. Please see my forth sentence.
>>
>>> To reduce the effort of Neandering, do a -series- of parallel custs with
>>> the Skilsaw, then break the 'fingers' off, and clean up with the chisel.
>>
>>Hi, Robert.
>>
>>I may revisit this approach, particularly if I can find a circular
>>saw blade with a very wide kerf (1/4" or wider?).
>
>I suppose you could put two blades on the saw. *grin*
>an actual dado set, "wobble" or otherwise, is definitely not a good idea,
Yeah, and if one's installed backwards, it'll cut well on the return
stroke, huh? <chortle>
>>My first attempt failed because I left way too much room between cuts,
>>as mentioned by other groupers.
>
>BTW, there's nothing that says you have to leave _any_ space between the
>cuts -- you can take it all off with the saw blade. "Break it off, and
>clean up with a chisel and/or rasp" just tends to be easier/faster,
>particularly, when you're going 'along' the grain.
Bbbut, that's awfully tricky to do.
>>My chisel-fu is not going to be up to your standard, so it may pay
>>me to continue to let the router create the flat surfaces I require.
>
>I'll merely point out that you don't _need_ "flat" surfaces, just that
>the two surfaces to be joined 'match". This -is- easier to do, with a
>bit of 'lay them to together and see where they bind'.
Yes you do need flat. Wavy surfaces don't glue-up well. Curved is OK
if they mate, but "fairly flat" is a necessity.
>I'm not disparaging the way you're currently doing it -- if it works _for_you_
>that's all that matters. <grin>
>
>When the opportunity presents itself, it is always worthwhile experimenting
>with alternative approaches -- who knows, one of them *may* fit you better
>than the way you have been doing it. Of course, it may not, but you're never
>going to know until you try it.
True, try things until one "fits" your style.
>One other alternative to consider, *IF* you've got the space to stand the 2x4
>_on_end_, and support it stably, is to use a "back saw" (hand saw with a
>reinforced spine on the blade) to cut down the middle of the 2x4s, and then
>lay them down and cut off one of the 'sides', either with the back saw, or
>a power saw. This +does+ call for some skill with the back saw, to hold it
>vertical as you get the cut started.
[One could also set the depth stop in an SCMS (sliding compound miter
saw) and cut them on one of those, Pooh.]
--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
Larry Jaques
<jclarke...@cox.net> scrawled the following:
>On 4/27/2010 12:36 AM, Winston wrote:
>> On 4/26/2010 7:14 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>> On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:
>>>
>>>> I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
>>>> gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
>>>> Flatter would be better for that use, yes?
>>>
>>> Consider a "glue" that can be used with pressure treated wood,
>>
>> Whups. I guessed that the chemical treatment penetration would
>> be shallow enough that the core would remain reasonably unaffected.
>> I was thinking on the order of say 1/4" depth max.
>> I will have to check into this. Thanks for the heads up.
>
>The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way through.
YOU, sir, have obviously never cut a pressure treated piece of lumber
in half. The core is never, in my experience, fully treated. Copper
solutions only penetrate about 1/4", as discussed above.
That's why I keep 2 colors of dye/preservative in my truck. I have to
daub it on the cut ends of PT lumber when I'm done so it matches and
is protected from bugs and moisture. http://fwd4.me/EMu brown (most
used) and http://fwd4.me/EMy (green) are what I've found locally.
>>> and be aware that a lap joint is one joint, particularly in this
>>> application,
>>> that, in addition to being "glued", needs to be either pinned or screwed
>>> together.
>>
>> Yup. I bought a couple boxes of chemical resistant square drive
>> fasteners from a local 'pro' lumber shop. I figured the shorter
>> fasteners for the lap corners and the longer fasteners to attach the
>> fence boards to the frame. Lag bolts for the hinges.
I've been using the epoxy coated deck screws, but find that upon
removal, half the epoxy is rubbed off. I'm in the process of
converting my stock to galv once again. I want my hard work to
outlast me. Square drive is definitely the best answer, too, with
combo (pozi and square) the next best thing. TORX is quite good, as
well, but square is my fave.
Larry Jaques
<puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> scrawled the following:
>"J. Clarke" <jclarke...@cox.net> wrote in
>news:hr5ug...@news7.newsguy.com:
>
>>
>> The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way
>> through.
>>
>
>So, when you cut off a piece of pressure treated lumber, and only the first
>1/4" or so is brown and the rest looks like regular wood (a little darker)
>what's the difference between the brown and the yellowish center?
Treating. The untreated center is yellowish. ;)
dpb
>> On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:
>>> I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
>>> gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
If I'm reading your intent correctly, the corner would be grain at
90-deg angles. Such a cross-grain joint will fail shortly even w/o the
exposure to weather. Forget the glue; if anything, a flexible glue
_might_ help serve as a moisture barrier similar to a caulk. The
abutted faces will be a moisture wicking point.
As for cutting them, I make the shoulder cut w/ the circular saw and
then use the bow saw (rip blade) to cut the length. Some practice and
can do that as clean or cleaner than any other way and as quickly as well.
--
Winston
> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 01:43:14 -0400, the infamous "J. Clarke"
> <jclarke...@cox.net> scrawled the following:
>
>> On 4/27/2010 12:36 AM, Winston wrote:
(...)
>>> Whups. I guessed that the chemical treatment penetration would
>>> be shallow enough that the core would remain reasonably unaffected.
>>> I was thinking on the order of say 1/4" depth max.
>>> I will have to check into this. Thanks for the heads up.
>>
>> The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way through.
>
> YOU, sir, have obviously never cut a pressure treated piece of lumber
> in half. The core is never, in my experience, fully treated. Copper
> solutions only penetrate about 1/4", as discussed above.
So, I learned *two* things this week.
They are mutually contradictory, but I stand by my count.
:)
Larry, can I use regular wood glue to bond inner fibers of PT doug fir?
Would epoxy work better? Some other adhesive perhaps?
> That's why I keep 2 colors of dye/preservative in my truck. I have to
> daub it on the cut ends of PT lumber when I'm done so it matches and
> is protected from bugs and moisture. http://fwd4.me/EMu brown (most
> used) and http://fwd4.me/EMy (green) are what I've found locally.
Yup, I have a can of 'environmentally friendly' sealant for cut ends.
It seems to work because I saw no deterioration in some diagonally cut
4 x 4 s that lived in the sun and rain for a decade.
(...)
> I've been using the epoxy coated deck screws, but find that upon
> removal, half the epoxy is rubbed off. I'm in the process of
> converting my stock to galv once again. I want my hard work to
> outlast me. Square drive is definitely the best answer, too, with
> combo (pozi and square) the next best thing. TORX is quite good, as
> well, but square is my fave.
Ya got that right! I tested my first square drive fasteners in lumber
a couple days ago. Absolutely *no* cam-out, even with a 2-1/2" long
screw into dry wood. Solid, Jackson.
---
Discovered an interesting thing (parenthetically speaking).
The same screws are sold in entirely different ways per market.
A 5 lb box of coated 2-1/2" screws cost me $15.00 at the local 'pro'
wood monger. The box is marked "use with phillips *or* square driver".
The same screws from the same manufacturer sold at Home Depot is
priced at >$28.00 and the box makes no mention of the 'square drive'
ability, though the heads are clearly the same. It's almost as if they
want you to cam the screw heads. Funny, that.
Winston
> Winston wrote:
>>> On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:
> ...
>>>> I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
>>>> gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
> ...
> If I'm reading your intent correctly, the corner would be grain at
> 90-deg angles.
Yes.
> Such a cross-grain joint will fail shortly even w/o the
> exposure to weather.
Even with screws through the facing boards and through the lap joints?
I had no idea doug fir was that weak. I shall have to rethink this.
Perhaps I should weld up a steel box tube frame and use tek screws
to hold the facing boards to the front. That'd work but I suspect
it would have to be powder coated. This woodworking stuff is more
complicated than I thought it would be!
> Forget the glue; if anything, a flexible glue
> _might_ help serve as a moisture barrier similar to a caulk. The abutted
> faces will be a moisture wicking point.
>
> As for cutting them, I make the shoulder cut w/ the circular saw and
> then use the bow saw (rip blade) to cut the length. Some practice and
> can do that as clean or cleaner than any other way and as quickly as well.
I can't even place a proper axial cut with a band saw!
As you say above, it would all fall apart quickly anyway.
This is educational. Thanks for your thoughts.
Winston
I will be all set during the 'big crunch'!
>>> My first attempt failed because I left way too much room between cuts,
>>> as mentioned by other groupers.
>>
>> BTW, there's nothing that says you have to leave _any_ space between the
>> cuts -- you can take it all off with the saw blade. "Break it off, and
>> clean up with a chisel and/or rasp" just tends to be easier/faster,
>> particularly, when you're going 'along' the grain.
>
> Bbbut, that's awfully tricky to do.
Indeed.
>> One other alternative to consider, *IF* you've got the space to stand the 2x4
>> _on_end_, and support it stably, is to use a "back saw" (hand saw with a
>> reinforced spine on the blade) to cut down the middle of the 2x4s, and then
>> lay them down and cut off one of the 'sides', either with the back saw, or
>> a power saw. This +does+ call for some skill with the back saw, to hold it
>> vertical as you get the cut started.
That is all but impossible for me. You should see some of the unintentional
angles I've placed along axes over the years using various saws.
Great for making stakes but I'm fresh out of vampires. Very discouraging.
> [One could also set the depth stop in an SCMS (sliding compound miter
> saw) and cut them on one of those, Pooh.]
Sometimes I forget to just walk over to the proper machine in my
10k foot^2 wood shop, like you do on your show, Norm. :)
http://www.klockit.com/itm_img/49597.jpg
But seriously, I'm trying to limit myself to only one new tool per project.
J. Clarke
> J. Clarke wrote:
>> On 4/27/2010 12:36 AM, Winston wrote:
>>> On 4/26/2010 7:14 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>>> On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
>>>>> gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
>>>>> Flatter would be better for that use, yes?
>>>>
>>>> Consider a "glue" that can be used with pressure treated wood,
>>>
>>> Whups. I guessed that the chemical treatment penetration would
>>> be shallow enough that the core would remain reasonably unaffected.
>>> I was thinking on the order of say 1/4" depth max.
>>> I will have to check into this. Thanks for the heads up.
>>
>> The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way
>> through.
>
> Nope. Either that or you can get better PT than I can. There are also
> different strengths of PT; eg, ground contact, direct burial, etc.
>
> I have always heard - and agree - that if you cut a piece of PT the
> resultant raw wood should receive an application of a fungicide. I always
> do so with Cuprinol.
Any PT I've cut up is the same color all the way through. Yes, there
are different grades but that is due to different formulation and
concentration of the treating bath and to different treating techniques,
not to different degrees of penetration.
If it's dimension lumber and it's not the same color all the way through
(leaving aside heartwood vs sapwood) then it's crappy treatment and you
should return it and demand a replacement that has been properly
treated. Heavy pilings sometimes don't get quite that degree of
uniformity but even there most of the sapwood should be penetrated.
Mike Paulsen
> The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.
>
> However, I don't want to.
>
> I want to use my plunge router to place a 3-1/2" square lap joint
> about 3/4" deep on the ends of several pressure treated 2x4s.
(snip)
> What would SuperWoodworker do?
>
SuperWoodworker might double up 1x4s rather than cutting lap joints in
2x4s, depending on the application.
Winston
Great idea but 2 x 4 was the smallest PT lumber I could find.
As dpb says, grain orientation would prevent the joint from being
structurally sound anyway, so perhaps a steel frame or maybe
some "L" StrongTie joints.
http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/T-L.asp
Thanks for helping the noob, guys.
dadiOH
> On 4/27/2010 5:07 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> Winston wrote:
>
> (...)
>
>>> Doubtlessly someone makes a 7-1/4" circular saw blade with a wide
>>> kerf (say 1/4"?) just perfect for this app.
>>
>> Put on more than one blade.
>
> Oh! You guys weren't kidding?
>
> I shall try that.
>
> Thanks!
>
> --Winston
Just adjust them so the centers (hub) are touching. You may have to rotate
them so teeth of one are next to the gullets of the other, maybe not.
dadiOH
> On 4/27/2010 8:19 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On 4/27/2010 12:36 AM, Winston wrote:
>>>> On 4/26/2010 7:14 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>>>> On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
>>>>>> gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
>>>>>> Flatter would be better for that use, yes?
>>>>>
>>>>> Consider a "glue" that can be used with pressure treated wood,
>>>>
>>>> Whups. I guessed that the chemical treatment penetration would
>>>> be shallow enough that the core would remain reasonably unaffected.
>>>> I was thinking on the order of say 1/4" depth max.
>>>> I will have to check into this. Thanks for the heads up.
>>>
>>> The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way
>>> through.
>>
>> Nope. Either that or you can get better PT than I can. There are
>> also different strengths of PT; eg, ground contact, direct burial,
>> etc. I have always heard - and agree - that if you cut a piece of PT the
>> resultant raw wood should receive an application of a fungicide. I
>> always do so with Cuprinol.
>
> Any PT I've cut up is the same color all the way through.
None that I have ever cut was.
Mike Marlow
> On 4/27/2010 8:06 AM, Mike Paulsen wrote:
>> SuperWoodworker might double up 1x4s rather than cutting lap joints
>> in 2x4s, depending on the application.
>
> Great idea but 2 x 4 was the smallest PT lumber I could find.
>
> As dpb says, grain orientation would prevent the joint from being
> structurally sound anyway, so perhaps a steel frame or maybe
> some "L" StrongTie joints.
>
Just be careful how far you take principles. Sure - a cross grain joint is
inherently inferior to a joint where the grain runs in the same direction -
but will you ever notice that? For centuries, cross grain joints have been
in use and have served very well. You can take the theory too far and get
all caught up in what you should not do. Net result - analysis paralysis.
You'll never build anything. The governing factor should be whether the
particular joint, or technique is sufficient for the task at hand, not
whether it is the best theoretical approach. A good guiding light is the
preponderance of evidence of eons of time. Ignore all the rest.
--
-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net
DerbyDad03
wrote:
re: "You can take the theory too far and get all caught up in what you
should not do. Net result - analysis paralysis."
Well said!
BTDT
dadiOH
> On 4/27/2010 6:51 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 01:43:14 -0400, the infamous "J. Clarke"
>> <jclarke...@cox.net> scrawled the following:
>>
>>> On 4/27/2010 12:36 AM, Winston wrote:
>
> (...)
>
>>>> Whups. I guessed that the chemical treatment penetration would
>>>> be shallow enough that the core would remain reasonably unaffected.
>>>> I was thinking on the order of say 1/4" depth max.
>>>> I will have to check into this. Thanks for the heads up.
>>>
>>> The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way
>>> through.
>>
>> YOU, sir, have obviously never cut a pressure treated piece of lumber
>> in half. The core is never, in my experience, fully treated. Copper
>> solutions only penetrate about 1/4", as discussed above.
>
> So, I learned *two* things this week.
> They are mutually contradictory, but I stand by my count.
>
> :)
>
> Larry, can I use regular wood glue to bond inner fibers of PT doug
> fir? Would epoxy work better? Some other adhesive perhaps?
Butting in, any glue will glue but some glue better. PVA (white glue) is no
good around water. Aliphatic ("yellow glue") may or not be OK...type one
isn't good around water; type 2 is "water resisant" which should be fine;
type 3 is waterproof.
Also water proof are epoxy, Resorcinol, and urea-formaldehyde glues such as
Weldwood Plastic Resin. All are overkill for your project IMO.
Epoxy is good for joining less than good joints when it is thickened with
something like Cab-o-Sil.
dadiOH
> Winston wrote:
>>> On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:
> ...
>>>> I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
>>>> gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
> ...
> If I'm reading your intent correctly, the corner would be grain at
> 90-deg angles. Such a cross-grain joint will fail shortly even w/o
> the exposure to weather.
Over 40 years, I have made hundreds of them. None have ever failed whether
inside or outside.
dadiOH
> On 4/27/2010 6:59 AM, dpb wrote:
>> Winston wrote:
>>>> On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:
>> ...
>>>>> I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
>>>>> gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
>> ...
>> If I'm reading your intent correctly, the corner would be grain at
>> 90-deg angles.
>
> Yes.
>
>> Such a cross-grain joint will fail shortly even w/o the
>> exposure to weather.
>
> Even with screws through the facing boards and through the lap joints?
> I had no idea doug fir was that weak. I shall have to rethink this.
1. Douglas fir isn't weak. Certainly, there are others stronger but not
softwoods AFAIK. You are lucky to live where you can get it easily and (I
trust) inexpensively.
2. If the mating surfaces are reasonably flat your joints will be fine with
or without the screws. Screws are handy to clamp them together while the
glue dries though and won't hurt anything.
The biggest problem with screws is that it is next to impossible to find
convenient sources of hot dipped galvanized screws. Outdoors, plain steel
or electro-plated steel will rust; given time (months to years) the rusted
areas will eventually deteriorate the wood. Bronze, stainless steel and
Monel don't rust.
____________
> This woodworking stuff is more
> complicated than I thought it would be!
Not really. What is complicated is the differing opinions. The best
opinions are based on experience.
Puckdropper at dot
news:12qdt5d3akef7uu1n...@4ax.com:
>
> Yeah, and if one's installed backwards, it'll cut well on the return
> stroke, huh? <chortle>
>
>
*snip*
Ever heard of the Omni Dual Saw? Same idea... except I don't know if
they'd ever tried it going backwards.
"Our saw cuts so well backwards, just imagine what it could do forwards!"
:-)
Puckdroper
Winston
> Winston wrote:
>> On 4/27/2010 5:07 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>>> Winston wrote:
>>
>> (...)
>>
>>>> Doubtlessly someone makes a 7-1/4" circular saw blade with a wide
>>>> kerf (say 1/4"?) just perfect for this app.
>>>
>>> Put on more than one blade.
>>
>> Oh! You guys weren't kidding?
>>
>> I shall try that.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> --Winston
>
> Just adjust them so the centers (hub) are touching. You may have to rotate
> them so teeth of one are next to the gullets of the other, maybe not.
Soon as the rain lets up I'll head to the hardware store
and pick up a couple blades.
This should be good. :)
Puckdropper at dot
news:tPDBn.139149$bH6.1...@newsfe13.ams2:
>
> Butting in, any glue will glue but some glue better. PVA (white glue)
> is no good around water. Aliphatic ("yellow glue") may or not be
> OK...type one isn't good around water; type 2 is "water resisant"
> which should be fine; type 3 is waterproof.
>
*snip*
Would that happen to be why the various Titebonds are named the way they
are?
Puckdropper
Winston
> J. Clarke wrote:
(...)
>> Any PT I've cut up is the same color all the way through.
>
> None that I have ever cut was.
I am So ConFused!
Winston
> Aliphatic ("yellow glue") may or not be OK...type one
> isn't good around water; type 2 is "water resisant" which should be fine;
> type 3 is waterproof.
I will ask for 'type 3 aliphatic glue', yes?
dadiOH
> On 4/27/2010 8:06 AM, Mike Paulsen wrote:
>> Winston wrote:
>>> The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.
>>>
>>> However, I don't want to.
>>>
>>> I want to use my plunge router to place a 3-1/2" square lap joint
>>> about 3/4" deep on the ends of several pressure treated 2x4s.
>> (snip)
>>> What would SuperWoodworker do?
>>>
>>
>> SuperWoodworker might double up 1x4s rather than cutting lap joints
>> in 2x4s, depending on the application.
>
> Great idea but 2 x 4 was the smallest PT lumber I could find.
>
> As dpb says, grain orientation would prevent the joint from being
> structurally sound anyway, so perhaps a steel frame or maybe
> some "L" StrongTie joints.
>
> http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/T-L.asp
My garden gate frame is made of 2x6 PT lumber, half lap joints. It is
sizeable, roughly 4' x 6'. It is 12 years old now, joints are fine. Just
glued, no screws; not sure what glue I used but most likely Type 2 yellow.
I don't recall what you are making, gate? If so and it is sizeable and
heavy your biggest potential problem is sag (2x4s aren't all that strong).
A diagonal from the top outside corner to the bottom inside (hinge side)
corner will help counter that. Ditto steel straps. See photo here...
http://www.cornerhardware.com/howto/ht011.html
If it's a gate and you intend to attach boards to the frame, leave at least
1/8" between the boards; i.e., don't try to fit them together to make a
solid wood surface. Reason is they will expand and contract and if they are
chock-o-block one to another there is no room to expand.
Winston
> Winston wrote:
>> On 4/27/2010 6:59 AM, dpb wrote:
(...)
>>> Such a cross-grain joint will fail shortly even w/o the
>>> exposure to weather.
>>
>> Even with screws through the facing boards and through the lap joints?
>> I had no idea doug fir was that weak. I shall have to rethink this.
>
> 1. Douglas fir isn't weak. Certainly, there are others stronger but not
> softwoods AFAIK. You are lucky to live where you can get it easily and (I
> trust) inexpensively.
It does require careful sorting to find lumber that is halfway clear
and free of bark and chips, though.
Heh! The Home Depot lumber guy apparently didn't like me 'cherry picking'
his pile of 2 x 4's very much. (I put back my rejects neatly so I don't
understand his attitude.)
I looked up after loading my cart and saw that he had closed the gates
on both ends of the aisle, caging me in. He re-appeared and asked if
I wanted out, so I told him 'Yes, unless you want to buy me lunch'!. :)
> 2. If the mating surfaces are reasonably flat your joints will be fine with
> or without the screws. Screws are handy to clamp them together while the
> glue dries though and won't hurt anything.
OK.
> The biggest problem with screws is that it is next to impossible to find
> convenient sources of hot dipped galvanized screws. Outdoors, plain steel
> or electro-plated steel will rust; given time (months to years) the rusted
> areas will eventually deteriorate the wood. Bronze, stainless steel and
> Monel don't rust.
On recommendation from the sales guy, I bought a couple boxes of
'Primeguard Plus' square / phillips drive screws. They are
said to be good for outdoor use and to be compatible with
the chems in pressure treated lumber. I hope they will be
OK, because they drive like a dream, even into dry wood.
(...)
>> This woodworking stuff is more
>> complicated than I thought it would be!
>
> Not really. What is complicated is the differing opinions. The best
> opinions are based on experience.
I will go with Plan 'A' (lap frame corners, glued and screwed).
I've been really lucky with the rest of the fence so perhaps
this will work, too.
Thanks!
Winston
> Winston wrote:
>> On 4/27/2010 8:06 AM, Mike Paulsen wrote:
>
>>> SuperWoodworker might double up 1x4s rather than cutting lap joints
>>> in 2x4s, depending on the application.
>>
>> Great idea but 2 x 4 was the smallest PT lumber I could find.
>>
>> As dpb says, grain orientation would prevent the joint from being
>> structurally sound anyway, so perhaps a steel frame or maybe
>> some "L" StrongTie joints.
>>
>
> Just be careful how far you take principles. Sure - a cross grain joint is
> inherently inferior to a joint where the grain runs in the same direction -
> but will you ever notice that?
From what you and dadiOH are saying, the glued and screwed cross grain
corner lap joints will be sufficiently strong in a frame for a <4' wide
fence gate.
That's good enough for me, so I will try it out.
> For centuries, cross grain joints have been
> in use and have served very well. You can take the theory too far and get
> all caught up in what you should not do. Net result - analysis paralysis.
> You'll never build anything. The governing factor should be whether the
> particular joint, or technique is sufficient for the task at hand, not
> whether it is the best theoretical approach.A good guiding light is the
> preponderance of evidence of eons of time. Ignore all the rest.
OK, Thanks!
Swingman
> Larry, can I use regular wood glue to bond inner fibers of PT doug fir?
> Would epoxy work better? Some other adhesive perhaps?
Take this to the bank: use a "construction adhesive" that is formulated
for pressure treated wood.
One that immediately comes to mind, and should be easy to find at the
BORG, is "Liquid Nails - Subfloor".
Simply put, disregard anything else you read on this issue in this
thread about gluing with other types of woodworking glues ...
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
Swingman
> Just be careful how far you take principles. Sure - a cross grain joint is
> inherently inferior to a joint where the grain runs in the same direction -
> but will you ever notice that? For centuries, cross grain joints have been
> in use and have served very well. You can take the theory too far and get
> all caught up in what you should not do. Net result - analysis paralysis.
> You'll never build anything. The governing factor should be whether the
> particular joint, or technique is sufficient for the task at hand, not
> whether it is the best theoretical approach. A good guiding light is the
> preponderance of evidence of eons of time. Ignore all the rest.
Bingo!!
Mike Marlow
"Winston" <Win...@bigbrother.net> wrote in message
news:hr72t...@news3.newsguy.com...
> On 4/27/2010 8:38 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> Winston wrote:
>>> On 4/27/2010 5:07 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>>>> Winston wrote:
>>>
>>> (...)
>>>
>>>>> Doubtlessly someone makes a 7-1/4" circular saw blade with a wide
>>>>> kerf (say 1/4"?) just perfect for this app.
>>>>
>>>> Put on more than one blade.
>>>
>>> Oh! You guys weren't kidding?
>>>
>>> I shall try that.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> --Winston
>>
>> Just adjust them so the centers (hub) are touching. You may have to
>> rotate
>> them so teeth of one are next to the gullets of the other, maybe not.
>
> Soon as the rain lets up I'll head to the hardware store
> and pick up a couple blades.
>
> This should be good. :)
>
Let me make this really simple for you. Just cut the wood on your line.
Move over and cut again. Repeat. Knock out the remaining standing pieces.
Touch up with a chisel if you need. You're talking minutes of work here
that does not require this amount of discussion. You can make more of a
simple task than is really necessary...
--
-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net
Mike Marlow
> On 4/27/2010 9:10 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> Winston wrote:
>>> On 4/27/2010 6:59 AM, dpb wrote:
>
> (...)
>
>>>> Such a cross-grain joint will fail shortly even w/o the
>>>> exposure to weather.
>>>
>>> Even with screws through the facing boards and through the lap joints?
>>> I had no idea doug fir was that weak. I shall have to rethink this.
>>
>> 1. Douglas fir isn't weak. Certainly, there are others stronger but not
>> softwoods AFAIK. You are lucky to live where you can get it easily and
>> (I
>> trust) inexpensively.
>
> It does require careful sorting to find lumber that is halfway clear
> and free of bark and chips, though.
>
Unfortunately - more true than it should be these days. Though - I doubt
you are finding any bark on Home Depot wood. Bends and curves - sure, if
you're looking in the wrong stacks, but no bark.
> Heh! The Home Depot lumber guy apparently didn't like me 'cherry picking'
> his pile of 2 x 4's very much. (I put back my rejects neatly so I don't
> understand his attitude.)
>
Home Depot does not care if you cherry pick one bit. In fact - they want
you to be happy with your purchase. Maybe you're looking through the wrong
stacks, hoping to find what you shouldn't be expecting to find there. They
have both junk wood and good wood. If you want good wood - then go to that
stack and don't be talking about sorting through stacks. Sure - you'll
still have to sort through some, but not like you're talking about.
If you ever encounter an HD associate who you think is giving you an
attitude about sorting through lumber, then take it to his manager. But
then again - that does not make for as good a story here, does it?
> I looked up after loading my cart and saw that he had closed the gates
> on both ends of the aisle, caging me in. He re-appeared and asked if
> I wanted out, so I told him 'Yes, unless you want to buy me lunch'!. :)
You never considered what their policy is? Let me inform you... when they
have to drop items from the overheads, they must block off the aisle they
are working in as well as the adjacent aisle they are facing. They don't
typically interrupt shopping that is underway, so while they may close off
the aisle you're in, they don't impact your shopping in that aisle. Once
you are done, they will carry on with what they need to do.
>
> On recommendation from the sales guy, I bought a couple boxes of
> 'Primeguard Plus' square / phillips drive screws. They are
> said to be good for outdoor use and to be compatible with
> the chems in pressure treated lumber. I hope they will be
> OK, because they drive like a dream, even into dry wood.
>
HD screws are *supposed* to be better now than they used to be, but I'm not
so sure. I'd probably defer to the old stand-by's myself. McFeely has done
well over time. HD did take a dive - at least for a while, with really bad
imported screw-junk.
--
-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net
Mike Marlow
"Swingman" <k...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:suqdnQKt5vMLhErW...@giganews.com...
Damnit! I only needed the free-space and I'd have had a Bingo too! Hate it
when that happens...
--
-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net
dadiOH
> On 4/27/2010 8:57 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> Aliphatic ("yellow glue") may or not be OK...type one
>> isn't good around water; type 2 is "water resisant" which should be
>> fine; type 3 is waterproof.
>
> I will ask for 'type 3 aliphatic glue', yes?
>
> --Winston
That or type 2. Not likely a clerk will know what you want if you ask for
aliphatic glue though. The "type" thing is (I think) what Titebond calls
them, get it or just read the label on other brands.
whit3rd
[on making a half-lap joint on board ends]
> Skilsaw (or equivalent), cut across the 2x4 at the proper distance from
> the end, then use the Neander approach -- wide wood chisel and a hammer
> to 'split' in from the end.
>
> *WAY* less dust than the router will throw up.
>
> Of course, you've got to be able to chisel a flat surface. for the lap.
>
> To reduce the effort of Neandering, do a -series- of parallel custs with
> the Skilsaw, then break the 'fingers' off, and clean up with the chisel.
YES! This is the least energy approach, works with the wood grain to
produce the desired shape with simple saw cuts and very quick chisel
work.
A plane or rabbet plane would easily clean up the split face, if
that's
not acceptable straight from the chisel.
The cut or cuts are shallow, and a thin kerf blade is appropriate.
Gang the
boards together and make a Skilsaw (handheld circular saw) kerf on a
half dozen at a time. When those are all done, remove the dust mask.
True neanders will have a miter saw with depth stops, in handheld
back saw style. That will work, too.
J. Clarke
> On 4/27/2010 8:39 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>
> (...)
>
>>> Any PT I've cut up is the same color all the way through.
>>
>> None that I have ever cut was.
>
> I am So ConFused!
Don't trust either of us. Go down to Home Depot, get a green pressure
treated 4x4, cut it in half, see what the inside looks like.
J. Clarke
> "J. Clarke"<jclarke...@cox.net> wrote in
> news:hr5ug...@news7.newsguy.com:
>
>>
>> The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way
>> through.
>>
>
> 1/4" or so is brown and the rest looks like regular wood (a little darker)
> what's the difference between the brown and the yellowish center?
I'm curious. You say "the first 1/4" or so is _brown_". Are you
talking about "brown treated lumber"? If so that 1/4" of brown is a
colorant, not the preservative. It's applied in a separate operation,
not under pressure.
J. Clarke
Suggestion--on any gate put in a diagonal brace. This can be a board, a
piece of wire, a threaded rod, or whatever else suits your fancy. With
a diagonal brace it's much much less likely to sag.
Also note that aliphatic resin glues like Titebond, while they are very
strong, tend to creep when subjected to continuous load.
Winston
> "Winston"<Win...@bigbrother.net> wrote in message
> news:hr72t...@news3.newsguy.com...
>> On 4/27/2010 8:38 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>>> Winston wrote:
>>>> On 4/27/2010 5:07 AM, dadiOH wrote:
(...)
>>> Just adjust them so the centers (hub) are touching. You may have to
>>> rotate
>>> them so teeth of one are next to the gullets of the other, maybe not.
>>
>> Soon as the rain lets up I'll head to the hardware store
>> and pick up a couple blades.
>>
>> This should be good. :)
>>
>
> Let me make this really simple for you. Just cut the wood on your line.
> Move over and cut again. Repeat. Knock out the remaining standing pieces.
> Touch up with a chisel if you need. You're talking minutes of work here
> that does not require this amount of discussion. You can make more of a
> simple task than is really necessary...
Gotcha. Thanks.
Winston
I have the PT 2 x 4 s and am sketching up the gate.
I am sure it will turn out fine and I thank you
guys for your thoughts.
Winston
> Winston wrote:
>> On 4/27/2010 8:57 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>>> Aliphatic ("yellow glue") may or not be OK...type one
>>> isn't good around water; type 2 is "water resisant" which should be
>>> fine; type 3 is waterproof.
>>
>> I will ask for 'type 3 aliphatic glue', yes?
>>
>> --Winston
>
> That or type 2. Not likely a clerk will know what you want if you ask for
> aliphatic glue though. The "type" thing is (I think) what Titebond calls
> them, get it or just read the label on other brands.
Gotcha. Waterproof wood glue and circ saw blades.
Thanks!
--Winston
Winston
> "Winston"<Win...@bigbrother.net> wrote in message
> news:hr74h...@news4.newsguy.com...
>> On 4/27/2010 9:10 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>>> Winston wrote:
(...)
>> It does require careful sorting to find lumber that is halfway clear
>> and free of bark and chips, though.
>>
>
> Unfortunately - more true than it should be these days. Though - I doubt
> you are finding any bark on Home Depot wood. Bends and curves - sure, if
> you're looking in the wrong stacks, but no bark.
Perhaps I am mistaking the large dark rough deposits for bark.
Could be anything, I suppose.
>> Heh! The Home Depot lumber guy apparently didn't like me 'cherry picking'
>> his pile of 2 x 4's very much. (I put back my rejects neatly so I don't
>> understand his attitude.)
>>
>
> Home Depot does not care if you cherry pick one bit.
Not officially anyway. :)
> In fact - they want
> you to be happy with your purchase. Maybe you're looking through the wrong
> stacks, hoping to find what you shouldn't be expecting to find there. They
> have both junk wood and good wood. If you want good wood - then go to that
> stack and don't be talking about sorting through stacks. Sure - you'll
> still have to sort through some, but not like you're talking about.
I checked the whole lumber department. There was only one stack
of PT 2x4's and that was it.
> If you ever encounter an HD associate who you think is giving you an
> attitude about sorting through lumber, then take it to his manager.
I don't have time for that. His manager knows or he doesn't.
> But then again - that does not make for as good a story here, does it?
What are you implying, Mike?
>> I looked up after loading my cart and saw that he had closed the gates
>> on both ends of the aisle, caging me in. He re-appeared and asked if
>> I wanted out, so I told him 'Yes, unless you want to buy me lunch'!. :)
>
> You never considered what their policy is? Let me inform you... when they
> have to drop items from the overheads, they must block off the aisle they
> are working in as well as the adjacent aisle they are facing. They don't
> typically interrupt shopping that is underway, so while they may close off
> the aisle you're in, they don't impact your shopping in that aisle. Once
> you are done, they will carry on with what they need to do.
Policy had nothing to do with it. I was the only one in the entire aisle
for those few minutes. No forklift in view anywhere. No scaffold.
No employees. No other customers. Just one person. Me. Just one piece
of gear. My lumber cart. This getting any clearer, Mike?
>> On recommendation from the sales guy, I bought a couple boxes of
>> 'Primeguard Plus' square / phillips drive screws. They are
>> said to be good for outdoor use and to be compatible with
>> the chems in pressure treated lumber. I hope they will be
>> OK, because they drive like a dream, even into dry wood.
>>
>
> HD screws are *supposed* to be better now than they used to be, but I'm not
> so sure. I'd probably defer to the old stand-by's myself. McFeely has done
> well over time. HD did take a dive - at least for a while, with really bad
> imported screw-junk.
I bought the screws from a high-end lumber store, not HD.
I think they'll work OK.
Winston
> On 4/27/2010 9:30 AM, Winston wrote:
>
>> Larry, can I use regular wood glue to bond inner fibers of PT doug fir?
>> Would epoxy work better? Some other adhesive perhaps?
>
> Take this to the bank: use a "construction adhesive" that is formulated
> for pressure treated wood.
>
> One that immediately comes to mind, and should be easy to find at the
> BORG, is "Liquid Nails - Subfloor".
>
> Simply put, disregard anything else you read on this issue in this
> thread about gluing with other types of woodworking glues ...
Cool! Thanks!
Liquid Nails for Subflooring
Circ Saw blades
Chisel
Hoosierpopi
>
> What would SuperWoodworker do?
>
Typically what would be done on site by an experienced framing crew
would be a circular saw to make multiple, close together shoulder cuts
at the proper depth, and a chisel to finish chopping the residue of
these cuts out.
If you have a BS, you could use that too as well. I've done it on a
TS, RAS and (as another mentioned) with a skill saw.
If you are removing 3/4" x 3.5" x 3.5" of wood, the router approach
would be better to clean up the lap after one of the aother approaches
was used to HOG OUT the majority of the lap.
Winston
(...)
> My garden gate frame is made of 2x6 PT lumber, half lap joints. It is
> sizeable, roughly 4' x 6'. It is 12 years old now, joints are fine. Just
> glued, no screws; not sure what glue I used but most likely Type 2 yellow.
OK now I'm feeling more confident.
> I don't recall what you are making, gate?
Yup. Two fence gates. Each about 44" wide by 60" tall.
> If so and it is sizeable and
> heavy your biggest potential problem is sag (2x4s aren't all that strong).
> A diagonal from the top outside corner to the bottom inside (hinge side)
> corner will help counter that. Ditto steel straps. See photo here...
> http://www.cornerhardware.com/howto/ht011.html
Mine will look very similar except that my frame will be thinner by 1"
since the 2x4s will lay flat against the covering fence boards just
like the gates these will replace.
> If it's a gate and you intend to attach boards to the frame, leave at least
> 1/8" between the boards; i.e., don't try to fit them together to make a
> solid wood surface. Reason is they will expand and contract and if they are
> chock-o-block one to another there is no room to expand.
Yup. My gaps will actually be much wider because I'm overlapping alternating
fence boards to imitate the look of a fence. Functional without beauty.
Winston
Winston
Grok that. Thanks!
Winston
(...)
> Suggestion--on any gate put in a diagonal brace. This can be a board, a
> piece of wire, a threaded rod, or whatever else suits your fancy. With a
> diagonal brace it's much much less likely to sag.
Yup! The gates I'm replacing have those diagonal braces and I will also
incorporate diagonal braces in the new gates.
> Also note that aliphatic resin glues like Titebond, while they are very
> strong, tend to creep when subjected to continuous load.
The construction adhesive products in caulking tubes have treated me very
well so that is what I will use.
Winston
Yup. That is the current plan.
I'm leaving a temporary 1" island on the end of the board to
support the router.
I think it will work just fine.
--Winston <-- The noob thanks you.
Mike Marlow
> On 4/27/2010 10:35 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>> If you ever encounter an HD associate who you think is giving you an
>> attitude about sorting through lumber, then take it to his manager.
>
> I don't have time for that. His manager knows or he doesn't.
Yeahbut you just propogate the problem if you don't raise the point.
>
>> But then again - that does not make for as good a story here, does
>> it?
>
> What are you implying, Mike?
Implying? Hell, I never imply. It's just one of my tongue in cheek ways of
saying "Oh come on, now..."
>
>>> I looked up after loading my cart and saw that he had closed the
>>> gates on both ends of the aisle, caging me in. He re-appeared and
>>> asked if I wanted out, so I told him 'Yes, unless you want to buy me
>>> lunch'!. :)
>>
>> You never considered what their policy is? Let me inform you...
>> when they have to drop items from the overheads, they must block off
>> the aisle they are working in as well as the adjacent aisle they are
>> facing. They don't typically interrupt shopping that is underway,
>> so while they may close off the aisle you're in, they don't impact
>> your shopping in that aisle. Once you are done, they will carry on
>> with what they need to do.
>
> Policy had nothing to do with it. I was the only one in the entire
> aisle for those few minutes. No forklift in view anywhere. No
> scaffold. No employees. No other customers. Just one person. Me. Just one
> piece
> of gear. My lumber cart. This getting any clearer, Mike?
So - did I misunderstand? I thought you said they barracaded you in. Can't
imagine why they would do that unless they were getting ready to drop
something from overhead. Like I said - if they were going to drop an item
in the adjacent aisle, they would have barracaded off the aisle you were in
also. Then they would simply have waited for you to finish up and leave the
aisle before they could proceed. It's common to find barriers left up after
they are done, but that would keep you from entering, not close you in as I
thought you said.
>
>>> On recommendation from the sales guy, I bought a couple boxes of
>>> 'Primeguard Plus' square / phillips drive screws. They are
>>> said to be good for outdoor use and to be compatible with
>>> the chems in pressure treated lumber. I hope they will be
>>> OK, because they drive like a dream, even into dry wood.
>>>
>>
>> HD screws are *supposed* to be better now than they used to be, but
>> I'm not so sure. I'd probably defer to the old stand-by's myself.
>> McFeely has done well over time. HD did take a dive - at least for
>> a while, with really bad imported screw-junk.
>
> I bought the screws from a high-end lumber store, not HD.
> I think they'll work OK.
>
Probably a wise move.
--
-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net
Lew Hodgett
A circular saw and a chisel followed by a flat bastard file gets the
joint made.
Assemble with some laminating epoxy thickened with micro-balloons and
clamp lightly to hold while epoxy "kicks".
Enjoy a cold beer while observing your craftsmanship and watching
epoxy kick.
Prepare for next project.
Lew
Winston
> Winston wrote:
>> On 4/27/2010 10:35 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>
>>> If you ever encounter an HD associate who you think is giving you an
>>> attitude about sorting through lumber, then take it to his manager.
>>
>> I don't have time for that. His manager knows or he doesn't.
>
> Yeahbut you just propogate the problem if you don't raise the point.
Nonsense.
>>> But then again - that does not make for as good a story here, does
>>> it?
>>
>> What are you implying, Mike?
>
> Implying? Hell, I never imply. It's just one of my tongue in cheek ways of
> saying "Oh come on, now..."
You weren't there. I was. That's how it went down. What's the big deal?
It was just a harmless practical joke. No big deal.
>>>> I looked up after loading my cart and saw that he had closed the
>>>> gates on both ends of the aisle, caging me in. He re-appeared and
>>>> asked if I wanted out, so I told him 'Yes, unless you want to buy me
>>>> lunch'!. :)
>>>
>>> You never considered what their policy is? Let me inform you...
>>> when they have to drop items from the overheads, they must block off
>>> the aisle they are working in as well as the adjacent aisle they are
>>> facing. They don't typically interrupt shopping that is underway,
>>> so while they may close off the aisle you're in, they don't impact
>>> your shopping in that aisle. Once you are done, they will carry on
>>> with what they need to do.
>>
>> Policy had nothing to do with it. I was the only one in the entire
>> aisle for those few minutes. No forklift in view anywhere. No
>> scaffold. No employees. No other customers. Just one person. Me. Just one
>> piece
>> of gear. My lumber cart. This getting any clearer, Mike?
>
> So - did I misunderstand?
Apparently so. There doesn't appear to be a way
to make it the concept clear to you.
I thought you said they barracaded you in.
Yes, that is what I said. I was the only one in the aisle. There was
only one person there. That was yours truly. If there had been two
people there and one left, that is the number we are talking about.
One more than zero and one less than two. Only one. A single unit of
measure. That was me and my lumber cart. That was it.
> Can't
> imagine why they would do that unless they were getting ready to drop
> something from overhead.
Yes. There was no reason except to harass. People do that all the time.
I don't understand why you can't get your mind around the concept,
apparently.
> Like I said - if they were going to drop an item
> in the adjacent aisle, they would have barracaded off the aisle you were in
> also.
Nonsense. They only barricade the affected aisle when they are stocking.
> Then they would simply have waited for you to finish up and leave the
> aisle before they could proceed. It's common to find barriers left up after
> they are done, but that would keep you from entering, not close you in as I
> thought you said.
That is what I said and said and said. Let's not waste any more bandwidth.
Winston
> RE: Subject
>
> A circular saw and a chisel followed by a flat bastard file gets the
> joint made.
>
> Assemble with some laminating epoxy thickened with micro-balloons and
> clamp lightly to hold while epoxy "kicks".
>
> Enjoy a cold beer while observing your craftsmanship and watching
> epoxy kick.
OK. Thanks Lew.
Mike Marlow
>
> Apparently so. There doesn't appear to be a way
> to make it the concept clear to you.
>
I'm getting tired of your manner of presenting yourself. I might easily
suggest that it is you who has difficulty understanding a concept.
> I thought you said they barracaded you in.
>
> Yes, that is what I said. I was the only one in the aisle. There was
> only one person there. That was yours truly. If there had been two
> people there and one left, that is the number we are talking about.
> One more than zero and one less than two. Only one. A single unit of
> measure. That was me and my lumber cart. That was it.
Wonderful Not a very clever diatribe, and rather meaningless to the point
at hand, but... oh well. You'd have been better off if you had left my
paragraph intact so that you could respond to the intended thought, rather
than extract this section for the sake of being a wise ass, but like I
said - oh well.
>
>> Can't
>> imagine why they would do that unless they were getting ready to drop
>> something from overhead.
>
> Yes. There was no reason except to harass. People do that all the
> time. I don't understand why you can't get your mind around the concept,
> apparently.
There we go - Home Depot making a victim of you. Barracading you in an
aisle just to harass you. Just how in the world would that even be
harassing?
>
>> Like I said - if they were going to drop an item
>> in the adjacent aisle, they would have barracaded off the aisle you
>> were in also.
>
> Nonsense. They only barricade the affected aisle when they are
> stocking.
You are so wrong. You should pay attention to what people tell you before
you go off like an ass. Their policy is to block off the aisle they are
lifting/dropping in and any facing adjacent aisle when using either an order
picker, a reach truck, or a fork lift. That means the only time they will
only block off the aisle they are working in and not another, is when they
are lifting/dropping from racks along the wall. Any other activity requires
they barracade off both their aisle and the asile they are facing. If
they're just using an electric ladder or scissor lift, they won't barracade
the adjacent aisle, but you don't see those in the lumber department too
much.
--
-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net
Larry Jaques
<Win...@bigbrother.net> scrawled the following:
>On 4/26/2010 10:43 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On 4/27/2010 12:36 AM, Winston wrote:
>>> On 4/26/2010 7:14 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>>> On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
>>>>> gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
>>>>> Flatter would be better for that use, yes?
>>>>
>>>> Consider a "glue" that can be used with pressure treated wood,
>>>
>>> Whups. I guessed that the chemical treatment penetration would
>>> be shallow enough that the core would remain reasonably unaffected.
>>> I was thinking on the order of say 1/4" depth max.
>>> I will have to check into this. Thanks for the heads up.
>>
>> The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way through.
>
>That'll be the thing I learned today. Thanks!
Or not. I'd love to see a cutoff from the middle of a PT 4x4 from Mr.
Clarke. I've never seen PT injected more than about 1/2", and that was
with a vacuum/pressure treating chamber and steel knife incised on 2
sides.
--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
Larry Jaques
<Win...@bigbrother.net> scrawled the following:
>On 4/27/2010 6:51 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 01:43:14 -0400, the infamous "J. Clarke"
>> <jclarke...@cox.net> scrawled the following:
>>
>>> On 4/27/2010 12:36 AM, Winston wrote:
>
>(...)
>
>>>> Whups. I guessed that the chemical treatment penetration would
>>>> be shallow enough that the core would remain reasonably unaffected.
>>>> I was thinking on the order of say 1/4" depth max.
>>>> I will have to check into this. Thanks for the heads up.
>>>
>>> The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way through.
>>
>> YOU, sir, have obviously never cut a pressure treated piece of lumber
>> in half. The core is never, in my experience, fully treated. Copper
>> solutions only penetrate about 1/4", as discussed above.
>
>So, I learned *two* things this week.
>They are mutually contradictory, but I stand by my count.
>
>:)
>Larry, can I use regular wood glue to bond inner fibers of PT doug fir?
>Would epoxy work better? Some other adhesive perhaps?
Galvanized bolts work better unless you let the wood dry really well
first, and that means it'll warp before you get it up. :(
What's this for, again?
>> That's why I keep 2 colors of dye/preservative in my truck. I have to
>> daub it on the cut ends of PT lumber when I'm done so it matches and
>> is protected from bugs and moisture. http://fwd4.me/EMu brown (most
>> used) and http://fwd4.me/EMy (green) are what I've found locally.
>
>Yup, I have a can of 'environmentally friendly' sealant for cut ends.
>It seems to work because I saw no deterioration in some diagonally cut
>4 x 4 s that lived in the sun and rain for a decade.
What's environmentally friendly about mold/mildewcide and termiticide,
I wonder?
>> I've been using the epoxy coated deck screws, but find that upon
>> removal, half the epoxy is rubbed off. I'm in the process of
>> converting my stock to galv once again. I want my hard work to
>> outlast me. Square drive is definitely the best answer, too, with
>> combo (pozi and square) the next best thing. TORX is quite good, as
>> well, but square is my fave.
>
>Ya got that right! I tested my first square drive fasteners in lumber
>a couple days ago. Absolutely *no* cam-out, even with a 2-1/2" long
>screw into dry wood. Solid, Jackson.
That's the way things should work.
>Discovered an interesting thing (parenthetically speaking).
>The same screws are sold in entirely different ways per market.
>
>A 5 lb box of coated 2-1/2" screws cost me $15.00 at the local 'pro'
>wood monger. The box is marked "use with phillips *or* square driver".
Damn, those are CHEAP! I pay $20+ for those here, $25 for the normal
3-1/2-inchers, GripRITEs from Taiwan. Pozi heads, like yours.
Galv and other high-tech coatings are higher, too.
>The same screws from the same manufacturer sold at Home Depot is
>priced at >$28.00 and the box makes no mention of the 'square drive'
>ability, though the heads are clearly the same. It's almost as if they
>want you to cam the screw heads. Funny, that.
Yeah, that's why I use an impact driver exclusively, and square or
pozi heads almost exclusively.
Winston
> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 06:06:01 -0700, the infamous Winston
> <Win...@bigbrother.net> scrawled the following:
(...)
>> That'll be the thing I learned today. Thanks!
>
> Or not. I'd love to see a cutoff from the middle of a PT 4x4 from Mr.
> Clarke. I've never seen PT injected more than about 1/2", and that was
> with a vacuum/pressure treating chamber and steel knife incised on 2
> sides.
Just now I cut off one of my HD pressure treated 2 x 4s,
about 6" from one end and made a color scan of the
cross section. I can send a jpg if you would like, anyone
(well almost anyone). Beware, it is 2.8 MB.
Be sitting down before you look at the picture because you
will laugh your ass off.
:)
Larry Jaques
<k...@nospam.com> scrawled the following:
>On 4/27/2010 9:30 AM, Winston wrote:
>
>> Larry, can I use regular wood glue to bond inner fibers of PT doug fir?
>> Would epoxy work better? Some other adhesive perhaps?
>
>Take this to the bank: use a "construction adhesive" that is formulated
>for pressure treated wood.
>
>One that immediately comes to mind, and should be easy to find at the
>BORG, is "Liquid Nails - Subfloor".
"Goes on wet, comes up sticky!"
>Simply put, disregard anything else you read on this issue in this
>thread about gluing with other types of woodworking glues ...
What he said, but I still prefer galvanized glue for the PT crap.
Winston
> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 07:30:31 -0700, the infamous Winston
> <Win...@bigbrother.net> scrawled the following:
(...)
>> Larry, can I use regular wood glue to bond inner fibers of PT doug fir?
>> Would epoxy work better? Some other adhesive perhaps?
>
> Galvanized bolts work better unless you let the wood dry really well
> first, and that means it'll warp before you get it up. :(
>
> What's this for, again?
Two fence gates. Each are about 44" wide by 60" tall, overall.
The frame will be somewhat shorter.
>>> That's why I keep 2 colors of dye/preservative in my truck. I have to
>>> daub it on the cut ends of PT lumber when I'm done so it matches and
>>> is protected from bugs and moisture. http://fwd4.me/EMu brown (most
>>> used) and http://fwd4.me/EMy (green) are what I've found locally.
>>
>> Yup, I have a can of 'environmentally friendly' sealant for cut ends.
>> It seems to work because I saw no deterioration in some diagonally cut
>> 4 x 4 s that lived in the sun and rain for a decade.
>
> What's environmentally friendly about mold/mildewcide and termiticide,
> I wonder?
Dunno. Stuff works apparently. That's good enough for me.
>>> I've been using the epoxy coated deck screws, but find that upon
>>> removal, half the epoxy is rubbed off. I'm in the process of
>>> converting my stock to galv once again. I want my hard work to
>>> outlast me. Square drive is definitely the best answer, too, with
>>> combo (pozi and square) the next best thing. TORX is quite good, as
>>> well, but square is my fave.
>>
>> Ya got that right! I tested my first square drive fasteners in lumber
>> a couple days ago. Absolutely *no* cam-out, even with a 2-1/2" long
>> screw into dry wood. Solid, Jackson.
>
> That's the way things should work.
I liiike.
Morris Dovey
> Just now I cut off one of my HD pressure treated 2 x 4s,
> about 6" from one end and made a color scan of the
> cross section. I can send a jpg if you would like, anyone
> (well almost anyone). Beware, it is 2.8 MB.
>
> Be sitting down before you look at the picture because you
> will laugh your ass off.
I'd appreciate a look. My e-mail address is valid (and I can always use
a good laugh).
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
Larry Jaques
<Win...@bigbrother.net> scrawled the following:
>On 4/27/2010 6:59 AM, dpb wrote:
>> Winston wrote:
>>>> On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:
>> ...
>>>>> I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
>>>>> gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
>> ...
>> If I'm reading your intent correctly, the corner would be grain at
>> 90-deg angles.
>
>Yes.
>
>> Such a cross-grain joint will fail shortly even w/o the
>> exposure to weather.
>
>Even with screws through the facing boards and through the lap joints?
>I had no idea doug fir was that weak. I shall have to rethink this.
Doug fir isn't used in PT. PT is the cheapest, weakest wood they can
find, the second grade SPF. (spruce/pine/fir, other than Douglas)
Doug fir is an extremely strong pineywood, drying hard enough to bend
green sinkers in a single pound.
>Perhaps I should weld up a steel box tube frame and use tek screws
>to hold the facing boards to the front. That'd work but I suspect
>it would have to be powder coated. This woodworking stuff is more
>complicated than I thought it would be!
Ayup.
>> Forget the glue; if anything, a flexible glue
>> _might_ help serve as a moisture barrier similar to a caulk. The abutted
>> faces will be a moisture wicking point.
>>
>> As for cutting them, I make the shoulder cut w/ the circular saw and
>> then use the bow saw (rip blade) to cut the length. Some practice and
>> can do that as clean or cleaner than any other way and as quickly as well.
>
>I can't even place a proper axial cut with a band saw!
Eek!
>As you say above, it would all fall apart quickly anyway.
Coated metal is a good choice, butcha can use wood or plastic decking
over it.
>This is educational. Thanks for your thoughts.
Of course. The Wreck is just like Wreck.Metalheads, only different.
Puckdropper at dot
Most of the treated lumber I've seen and recognized is brown, but I do
have a piece that's yellow with a greenish hue to it. I have not cut the
yellow piece, so I don't know if it changes colors (tints) partway
through.
It's entirely possible that there's 4-5 different treatment methods "in
the wild" now and some are the partial treatment using a brown chemical
while others actually penetrate the entire piece.
After all, why do more than necessary? If someone's buying a 4x4 post to
sit on the ground for landscaping and the thinner treatment stops most
everything from getting in, why worry about the core?
Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.
Larry Jaques
<Win...@bigbrother.net> scrawled the following:
>On 4/27/2010 9:10 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> Winston wrote:
>>> On 4/27/2010 6:59 AM, dpb wrote:
>
>(...)
>
>>>> Such a cross-grain joint will fail shortly even w/o the
>>>> exposure to weather.
>>>
>>> Even with screws through the facing boards and through the lap joints?
>>> I had no idea doug fir was that weak. I shall have to rethink this.
>>
>> 1. Douglas fir isn't weak. Certainly, there are others stronger but not
>> softwoods AFAIK. You are lucky to live where you can get it easily and (I
>> trust) inexpensively.
>
>It does require careful sorting to find lumber that is halfway clear
>and free of bark and chips, though.
I've seen ten year old plain doug fir decking which has survived
better than pressure treated lumber here in rainy Oregano. It's good
schtuff, Maynard.
>Heh! The Home Depot lumber guy apparently didn't like me 'cherry picking'
>his pile of 2 x 4's very much. (I put back my rejects neatly so I don't
>understand his attitude.)
Tell him to kiss your ass, and shop at a _real_ lumberyard next time,
Pooh.
>I looked up after loading my cart and saw that he had closed the gates
>on both ends of the aisle, caging me in. He re-appeared and asked if
>I wanted out, so I told him 'Yes, unless you want to buy me lunch'!. :)
Wow.
>> 2. If the mating surfaces are reasonably flat your joints will be fine with
>> or without the screws. Screws are handy to clamp them together while the
>> glue dries though and won't hurt anything.
>
>OK.
Nahm's brad nailah won't help in this instance.
>> The biggest problem with screws is that it is next to impossible to find
>> convenient sources of hot dipped galvanized screws. Outdoors, plain steel
>> or electro-plated steel will rust; given time (months to years) the rusted
>> areas will eventually deteriorate the wood. Bronze, stainless steel and
>> Monel don't rust.
>
>On recommendation from the sales guy, I bought a couple boxes of
>'Primeguard Plus' square / phillips drive screws. They are
>said to be good for outdoor use and to be compatible with
>the chems in pressure treated lumber. I hope they will be
>OK, because they drive like a dream, even into dry wood.
Yeah, those are the epoxy coated screws I complained about.
I haven't seen any failures in PT wood yet, including the old CCA
treated stuff, but I will be moving entirely into galv once again as
soon as my 25 lbs of Primeguard is gone. If you drive one in and have
to remove it for any reason, discard it and put a new one in, though.
You'll see bare steel there, the reason you discard it.
>>> This woodworking stuff is more
>>> complicated than I thought it would be!
>>
>> Not really. What is complicated is the differing opinions. The best
>> opinions are based on experience.
>
>
>I will go with Plan 'A' (lap frame corners, glued and screwed).
There ya go.
>I've been really lucky with the rest of the fence so perhaps
>this will work, too.
G'luck!
Larry Jaques
<jclarke...@cox.net> scrawled the following:
>On 4/27/2010 8:19 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On 4/27/2010 12:36 AM, Winston wrote:
>>>> On 4/26/2010 7:14 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>>>> On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
>>>>>> gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
>>>>>> Flatter would be better for that use, yes?
>>>>>
>>>>> Consider a "glue" that can be used with pressure treated wood,
>>>>
>>>> Whups. I guessed that the chemical treatment penetration would
>>>> be shallow enough that the core would remain reasonably unaffected.
>>>> I was thinking on the order of say 1/4" depth max.
>>>> I will have to check into this. Thanks for the heads up.
>>>
>>> The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way
>>> through.
>>
>> Nope. Either that or you can get better PT than I can. There are also
>> different strengths of PT; eg, ground contact, direct burial, etc.
>>
>> I have always heard - and agree - that if you cut a piece of PT the
>> resultant raw wood should receive an application of a fungicide. I always
>> do so with Cuprinol.
>
>Any PT I've cut up is the same color all the way through. Yes, there
>are different grades but that is due to different formulation and
>concentration of the treating bath and to different treating techniques,
>not to different degrees of penetration.
>
>If it's dimension lumber and it's not the same color all the way through
>(leaving aside heartwood vs sapwood) then it's crappy treatment and you
>should return it and demand a replacement that has been properly
>treated. Heavy pilings sometimes don't get quite that degree of
>uniformity but even there most of the sapwood should be penetrated.
Every single piece of PT I've cut into both in California and Oregon
over the past 30 years, from at least ten different sources, has had
"crappy treatment", according to your theory, JC. Except for the end
inch, every cutoff I've made has had untreated wood inside, period.
And that goes for Womanized, CCA, AZQ, and others.
Pics, please! Location and sourcing, too, eh?
Larry Jaques
<jclarke...@cox.net> scrawled the following:
>On 4/27/2010 12:22 PM, Winston wrote:
>> On 4/27/2010 8:39 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>> (...)
>>
>>>> Any PT I've cut up is the same color all the way through.
>>>
>>> None that I have ever cut was.
>>
>> I am So ConFused!
>
>Don't trust either of us. Go down to Home Depot, get a green pressure
>treated 4x4, cut it in half, see what the inside looks like.
GREEN? Hell, son, it's all brown now. ;)
Larry Jaques
<mpau...@charter.net> scrawled the following:
>Winston wrote:
>> The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.
>>
>> However, I don't want to.
>>
>> I want to use my plunge router to place a 3-1/2" square lap joint
>> about 3/4" deep on the ends of several pressure treated 2x4s.
>(snip)
>> What would SuperWoodworker do?
>>
>
>SuperWoodworker might double up 1x4s rather than cutting lap joints in
>2x4s, depending on the application.
Where'd you find PT one-bys, Mike?
Larry Jaques
<jclarke...@cox.net> scrawled the following:
>Suggestion--on any gate put in a diagonal brace. This can be a board, a
>piece of wire, a threaded rod, or whatever else suits your fancy. With
>a diagonal brace it's much much less likely to sag.
>
>Also note that aliphatic resin glues like Titebond, while they are very
>strong, tend to creep when subjected to continuous load.
That's an excellent suggestion.
ACE Hardware sells a gate brace kit with a length of wire rope, a pair
of angle bracket ends, screws, and a turnbuckle for $15. They're well
worth it and out-perform z bracing by tenfold.
Lee Michaels
"Larry Jaques" wrote
>
> ACE Hardware sells a gate brace kit with a length of wire rope, a pair
> of angle bracket ends, screws, and a turnbuckle for $15. They're well
> worth it and out-perform z bracing by tenfold.
>
One advantage of the turnbuckle approach is that you can adjust it over the
years. No gate will stay the same over the years. But with an adjustable
brace, you can keep it square and true.
J. Clarke
> On 4/27/2010 5:39 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 06:06:01 -0700, the infamous Winston
>> <Win...@bigbrother.net> scrawled the following:
>
> (...)
>
>>> That'll be the thing I learned today. Thanks!
>>
>> Or not. I'd love to see a cutoff from the middle of a PT 4x4 from Mr.
>> Clarke. I've never seen PT injected more than about 1/2", and that was
>> with a vacuum/pressure treating chamber and steel knife incised on 2
>> sides.
>
> Just now I cut off one of my HD pressure treated 2 x 4s,
> about 6" from one end and made a color scan of the
> cross section. I can send a jpg if you would like, anyone
> (well almost anyone). Beware, it is 2.8 MB.
>
> Be sitting down before you look at the picture because you
> will laugh your ass off.
Just put it up on flickr--an account is free.
> --Winston
J. Clarke
> "J. Clarke"<jclarke...@cox.net> wrote in
> news:hr7a...@news5.newsguy.com:
>
>> On 4/27/2010 4:18 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
>>> "J. Clarke"<jclarke...@cox.net> wrote in
>>> news:hr5ug...@news7.newsguy.com:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way
>>>> through.
>>>>
>>>
>>> So, when you cut off a piece of pressure treated lumber, and only the
>>> first 1/4" or so is brown and the rest looks like regular wood (a
>>> little darker) what's the difference between the brown and the
>>> yellowish center?
>>
>> I'm curious. You say "the first 1/4" or so is _brown_". Are you
>> talking about "brown treated lumber"? If so that 1/4" of brown is a
>> colorant, not the preservative. It's applied in a separate operation,
>> not under pressure.
>>
>
> Most of the treated lumber I've seen and recognized is brown, but I do
> have a piece that's yellow with a greenish hue to it. I have not cut the
> yellow piece, so I don't know if it changes colors (tints) partway
> through.
I'm curious as to the treatment--almost all pressure treating of
construction lumber involves copper compounds and almost all copper
compounds are green. Brown pressure treat would usually be creosote,
which would go in railroad ties, marine pilings, and a few other uses.
The stuff is sticky and has a distinctive odor and is generally not used
for light construction.
> It's entirely possible that there's 4-5 different treatment methods "in
> the wild" now and some are the partial treatment using a brown chemical
> while others actually penetrate the entire piece.
If it's "partial treatment" it's crap. The dark brown treatment is a
coloring for deck lumber and other uses where the lumber will not be
painted and is in addition to the preservative--it's no more a
preservative itself than an application of Minwax is a preservative, it
just goes deeper so won't go away the first time you clean the deck with
a pressure washer. The only brown preservative in common use is ACQ-D
IIRC, and it's a light brown, not dark.
> After all, why do more than necessary? If someone's buying a 4x4 post to
> sit on the ground for landscaping and the thinner treatment stops most
> everything from getting in, why worry about the core?
Does your lumberyard stock two kinds of pressure treated lumber, one to
"sit on the ground" and the other to be cut up to make decks and the
like with through-holes for fasteners?
In any case, lumber rated for ground contact generally has a heavier
treatment than lumber not intended for ground contact.
Winston
> On 4/27/2010 8:26 PM, Winston wrote:
>
>> Just now I cut off one of my HD pressure treated 2 x 4s,
>> about 6" from one end and made a color scan of the
>> cross section. I can send a jpg if you would like, anyone
>> (well almost anyone). Beware, it is 2.8 MB.
>>
>> Be sitting down before you look at the picture because you
>> will laugh your ass off.
>
> I'd appreciate a look. My e-mail address is valid (and I can always use
> a good laugh).
Hokay, Morris.
Watch your inbox.
--Winston