The creek is drowning you guys.

[tiredofspam]

Wow Woodpeckers announced a Fibonacci gauge and not one of you mentioned it.

But all the bitching about the creekkkkkkkkkkkkk .....

[Larry]

tiredofspam <nospam.nospam.com> wrote in
news:xtednQgYL-0nElvS...@ptd.net:

> Wow Woodpeckers announced a Fibonacci gauge and not one of
> you mentioned it.
>
> But all the bitching about the creekkkkkkkkkkkkk .....
>
>
>

I saw that but I don't have a clue how it would be used. Wanting
to figure out a use for it and can't. If I wanted to follow the
"golden ratio" rule wouldn't it be pretty easy to multiply by
1.6, mark it and cut?

I'd be interested in knowing what use you thing it would be...

Larry

[Leon]

It seems Woodpeckers might be trying to come up with too many single
production tools.

[Leon]

Like using a calculator to add 2+3. '~)

[RonB]

On May 30, 4:23 pm, tiredofspam <nospam.nospam.com> wrote:
> Wow Woodpeckers announced a Fibonacci gauge and not one of you mentioned it.
>
> But all the bitching about the creekkkkkkkkkkkkk .....

Awwww -- Don't worry about the creek. I have been shot a couple of
times for commenting on the increasing level of OT and non-labeled OT
content. But so far rec.woodworking is still halfway clean in that
respect. The "Creek" string gives the guys who are more worried about
politics, Oldsmobile, gas prices, screwed up California laws and
whatever else that post has degenerated into; than actual woodworking,
a single spot on which to focus. Just imagine if 800+ posts as silly
as those had been sprinkled across the entire group. Some groups have
done that and have become useless.

I hope it doesn't happen here. But after lurking here for 10-15 years
there does seem to be a trend.

RonB

[Swingman]

On 5/31/2012 7:55 AM, RonB wrote:

> I hope it doesn't happen here. But after lurking here for 10-15 years
> there does seem to be a trend.

I've been here the same length of time and I notice nothing different in
that respect. There's always been the BAD's, the various Bennett Wars,
the "man in the doorway", the Joe W. Woodpecker's, ad infinitum.

Nothing has changed but some of the names ...

I do miss Apeman ... and all those naked pictures he used to email you
of his "wife"/"girlfriend"/"whatever". ;)

Remember the guy who gave everyone on the wReck who wanted one, a
website on his server?

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

[tiredofspam]

Nothing, I was wondering why everything was off topic and nothing on
topic...

The only thing I saw on topic was how thing can a floor board be.
Someone released a new tool and nothing... nada...

I just thought I bring you back to bitching about tools woodworking
tools. :-)

[John Grossbohlin]

"tiredofspam" <nospam.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:GOKdnW8tkfTv5VrS...@ptd.net...

> Nothing, I was wondering why everything was off topic and nothing on
> topic...
>
> The only thing I saw on topic was how thing can a floor board be.
> Someone released a new tool and nothing... nada...
>
> I just thought I bring you back to bitching about tools woodworking
> tools. :-)

Maybe the problem is that many of us have been here for so long we have
pretty much run out of our own woodworking questions and the web-based
discussion sites have pulled in the bulk of the "new blood" ?? The big
commercial sites, like FWW and PWW, have surely attracted people who would
never find the newsgroups.... and the many ISPs that have dropped the
newsgroups have limited the pool of new blood. We old school guys are going
the way of the dinosaurs? Do we need to evolve? ;~) How?????
Rec.Woodworking t-shirts that have instructions on setting up news
readers??? ;~)

John

[RonB]

On May 31, 10:15 am, "John Grossbohlin"

I suspect at least some of them spend more time at a keyboard that in
the shop.

RonB

[RonB]

And look what I am doing now. See ya - heading for the shop!

RonB

[Bill]

RonB wrote:

> I suspect at least some of them spend more time at a keyboard that in
> the shop.
>
> RonB

Well, that's part of the point. Left to other forces, many of us might
lead less-balanced lives. The expectation, for instance, that there are
folks here waiting to see me finish my workbench is helpful!

From my point of view, whatever time I can get in the shop is a good
thing. That includes, shimming a door, finishing my drywall, priming and
painting, installing wiring and EMT and light fixtures, as well as
thinking about and doing woodworking projects (albeit small ones).

It's a fair bet I wouldn't be having anywhere near so much "fun" without
this group! Every new thing I learn to do earns me a unit of "fun".

This week I learned I can't cut a 2by4 with a CS and a speed square
nicely, unless I clamp it down. I guess I need 2 hands on the saw or the
saw wanders away, especially towards the end of the cut. I tried 3x in
a row, and the board just got shorter and shorter and shorter. If
anyone has a suggestion for this, I'd be interested (as the clamping
approach is not as fast). Maybe if I saw everyday I'll "hulk-up" a bit.

Bill

[Swingman]

On 5/31/2012 11:13 PM, Bill wrote:

> This week I learned I can't cut a 2by4 with a CS and a speed square
> nicely, unless I clamp it down. I guess I need 2 hands on the saw or the
> saw wanders away, especially towards the end of the cut. I tried 3x in a
> row, and the board just got shorter and shorter and shorter. If anyone
> has a suggestion for this, I'd be interested (as the clamping approach
> is not as fast). Maybe if I saw everyday I'll "hulk-up" a bit.

A quality tool and blade ... one you can handle, and sharp, respectively.

Sounds like you're missing one or both?

Instead of the speed square try this:

http://www.dannylipford.com/video/circular-saw-crosscut-guide/

[John Grossbohlin]

"Bill" <Bi...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:jq9fi...@news6.newsguy.com...

> This week I learned I can't cut a 2by4 with a CS and a speed square
> nicely, unless I clamp it down. I guess I need 2 hands on the saw or the
> saw wanders away, especially towards the end of the cut. I tried 3x in a
> row, and the board just got shorter and shorter and shorter. If anyone
> has a suggestion for this, I'd be interested (as the clamping approach is
> not as fast). Maybe if I saw everyday I'll "hulk-up" a bit.

Makes me wonder which way you have the square on the board.... point facing
toward you or away. I find towards works much better than away as the
force of holding the square against the wood and pushing the saw oppose each
other. I've seen others use the speed square with the point pointing away
which puts both forces in the same direction and slippage/canting happens
more easily. Just a thought...

John

[Lee Michaels]

"Bill" <Bi...@nospam.net> wrote

>
> This week I learned I can't cut a 2by4 with a CS and a speed square
> nicely, unless I clamp it down. I guess I need 2 hands on the saw or the
> saw wanders away, especially towards the end of the cut. I tried 3x in a
> row, and the board just got shorter and shorter and shorter. If anyone
> has a suggestion for this, I'd be interested (as the clamping approach is
> not as fast). Maybe if I saw everyday I'll "hulk-up" a bit.
>

You obviously need a board stretcher. Just ask at the lumber yard. They
will know what you are talking about...

[tiredofspam]

Bill, thats ridiculous.

I can cut a pretty good square using my foot to keep the 2x4 off the
ground... It's not hard.

Now get to work..

[Bill]

Well, that IS an interesting thought. You may have identified the crux
of the problem. I've been using it point away, because I liked the idea
of having my fingers behind, rather than in front of, the saw. But as
you point out, there is a conflict of interest. IIRC, I needed to wrap
my fingers around other end anyway to get the blade through.

FWIW, I'm using a maybe 1970's Craftman, ~15Amp CS I picked up at an
auction for about $12. I'm using this blade (new): Avanti 7-1/4 in. x 60
Tooth Fine Finish Circular Saw Blade, which I expected should be fine
since I'm cutting soft wood.

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202021695/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=7+1%2F4%22+60+tooth&storeId=10051&superSkuId=202847711

>
> John

[Larry W]

In article <jqbf7...@news3.newsguy.com>, Bill <Bi...@nospam.net> wrote:
>John Grossbohlin wrote:
<...snipped...>

>FWIW, I'm using a maybe 1970's Craftman, ~15Amp CS I picked up at an
>auction for about $12. I'm using this blade (new): Avanti 7-1/4 in. x 60
>Tooth Fine Finish Circular Saw Blade, which I expected should be fine
>since I'm cutting soft wood.
>

A 60 tooth blade is not appropriate for cutting dimensional lumber with
a hand held circular saw, especially an old an tired one. It will take
a lot less effort and you'll get better results with something like 24
teeth for framing lumber being held by hand. The 60 tooth blade is
more suited to 1x stock or plywood that is securely supported or
clamped down.



--
Make it as simple as possible, but not simpler. (Albert Einstein)

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

[Bill]

Larry W wrote:
> In article<jqbf7...@news3.newsguy.com>, Bill<Bi...@nospam.net> wrote:
> <...snipped...>
>> FWIW, I'm using a maybe 1970's Craftman, ~15Amp CS I picked up at an
>> auction for about $12. I'm using this blade (new): Avanti 7-1/4 in. x 60
>> Tooth Fine Finish Circular Saw Blade, which I expected should be fine
>> since I'm cutting soft wood.
>>
>
> A 60 tooth blade is not appropriate for cutting dimensional lumber with
> a hand held circular saw, especially an old an tired one. It will take
> a lot less effort and you'll get better results with something like 24
> teeth for framing lumber being held by hand. The 60 tooth blade is
> more suited to 1x stock or plywood that is securely supported or
> clamped down.

It's the first and only CS blade I have bought, so I don't have much to
compare it to. It's getting the job done. I DID FIND your remarks
informative. A 24 tooth blade leave me with a "rougher" cut, wouldn't
it? This blade is leaving me with a smooth cut (which is what I
wanted). When you say "better results", do you mean speed-wise?

BTW, I noticed that the CS is not Craftsman, it's Black & Decker (which
I inadvertantly equated via the old Sears Roebuck and Co.). Same
difference, I think.

[Bill]

Bill wrote:
> Larry W wrote:
>> In article<jqbf7...@news3.newsguy.com>, Bill<Bi...@nospam.net> wrote:
>> <...snipped...>
>>> FWIW, I'm using a maybe 1970's Craftman, ~15Amp CS I picked up at an
>>> auction for about $12. I'm using this blade (new): Avanti 7-1/4 in. x 60
>>> Tooth Fine Finish Circular Saw Blade, which I expected should be fine
>>> since I'm cutting soft wood.
>>>
>>
>> A 60 tooth blade is not appropriate for cutting dimensional lumber with
>> a hand held circular saw, especially an old an tired one. It will take
>> a lot less effort and you'll get better results with something like 24
>> teeth for framing lumber being held by hand. The 60 tooth blade is
>> more suited to 1x stock or plywood that is securely supported or
>> clamped down.

I read into the fact that it would work for plywood that it was "plenty
of blade" for the job. Evidently, the "stability" of the plywood is an
important factor (and one I did not consider). Thanks!

Bill

[CW]

"John Grossbohlin" wrote in message
news:V9mdndkiGYFyLFXS...@earthlink.com...

========================================================================
It also has the advantage that you can keep an eye on your thumb. Cut off a
finger, you can adapt. Cut off a thumb and life becomes rather difficult.

[Bill]

tiredofspam wrote:
> Bill, thats ridiculous.
>
> I can cut a pretty good square using my foot to keep the 2x4 off the
> ground... It's not hard.
>
> Now get to work..

Thank you for the encouragement! : )

I took a picture and updated my website tonight for anyone who is
curious whether I really ever do any work!

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

Cheers,
Bill

[Eric]

"Bill" wrote in message news:jqcim...@news3.newsguy.com...

====
How many workbenches is that now? Without checking the reflections in
shiny objects, I see three, so far.

--
Eric

[John Grossbohlin]

"Eric" <eSchn...@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:jqcufv$1ai$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

>
> "Bill" wrote in message news:jqcim...@news3.newsguy.com...
>

> I took a picture and updated my website tonight for anyone who is
> curious whether I really ever do any work!
>
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> Cheers,
> Bill
>
> ====
> How many workbenches is that now? Without checking the reflections in
> shiny objects, I see three, so far.

This discussion reminds me of a friend of mine whom I see only
occasionally.... I knew he was a member of my woodworking club years ago and
when I saw him over the years I'd ask what he'd been working on in his shop.
Several times in a row, spread over several years he responded "nothing at
the moment." Then one time he admitted that the only thing he'd ever made
was the shop itself... it's sort of become a tool museum! A couple years
ago, after his parent's passed away, he moved into his parent's home and
sold his own home. He's slowly been building a new shop... "to house your
tool collection" I asked? ;~)

John

[John Grossbohlin]

"CW" <cma...@earthlink.et> wrote in message
news:35-dnRKgd-kIAFTS...@earthlink.com...

Yeah... I hate it when that happens. ;~)

[Swingman]

On 6/1/2012 11:58 PM, CW wrote:

> ========================================================================
> It also has the advantage that you can keep an eye on your thumb. Cut
> off a finger, you can adapt. Cut off a thumb and life becomes rather
> difficult.

ROTFL ... yep, the "opposing thumb" (and an elbow that bends so you can
reach your mouth) is indeed the backbone (NPI) of civilization as we
know it.

Ask any cat or dog. :)

[Swingman]

Looking good so far, Bill.

Not to be critical, but the only thing that concerns me, strictly
judging from the photos, is that the legs may be too close together for
the height of the table?

It appears that much downward pressure on a benchtop overhang larger
than the end "aprons" may have a tendency to tip the bench.

Disregard if you have assured yourself that is not the case.

And you are going to put another "stretcher/apron" assembly toward the
bottom of the legs, right?

[Leon]

On 6/1/2012 11:58 PM, CW wrote:
>
>

Granted the "whole thumb" half your thumb, not so bad. I really only
have trouble buttoning my right long sleeve button with half a left
thumb. ;~)

[Larry Jaques]

On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 08:48:05 -0500, Swingman <k...@nospam.com> wrote:

>On 6/1/2012 11:58 PM, CW wrote:
>
>> ========================================================================
>> It also has the advantage that you can keep an eye on your thumb. Cut
>> off a finger, you can adapt. Cut off a thumb and life becomes rather
>> difficult.
>
>
>ROTFL ... yep, the "opposing thumb" (and an elbow that bends so you can
>reach your mouth) is indeed the backbone (NPI) of civilization as we
>know it.
>
>Ask any cat or dog. :)

The cats I asked HAHed and said "You servants had better watch
yourselves. Now get back to work. I want dinner and I want it NOW!
After that, I'll let you pet me for half an hour."

Dogs come when you call. Cats have answering services.


LJ, who is not a believer in pet ownership (either way.)

--
Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds
are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her
tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the
existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of
the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
-- Thomas Jefferson

[Larry Jaques]

All I can say is "With that shallow leg spacing, he'd better lag that
puppy to the wall, or the vise will drag it down onto his toesies."

[Lee Michaels]

"Swingman" <k...@nospam.com> wrote

>
> Not to be critical, but the only thing that concerns me, strictly judging
> from the photos, is that the legs may be too close together for the height
> of the table?
>
> It appears that much downward pressure on a benchtop overhang larger than
> the end "aprons" may have a tendency to tip the bench.
>
> Disregard if you have assured yourself that is not the case.
>
> And you are going to put another "stretcher/apron" assembly toward the
> bottom of the legs, right?
>

I agree. The only way a bench that narrow will be stable is if you pile 800
pounds on the bottom. That is commonly done for lathes. In fact I thought
it was a lathe bench when I looked at it. Those guys must have narrow
benches to get close to their turning. So they stack sand bags on the
bottom. This creates a stable base and cuts down on vibration.

Remember the comment I made about benches need to be heavy? If you are not
going to something really heavy, it must be wide enough to give a stable
work surface. Particularly if you are going to install a vise on there. I
have a fairly narrow bench in my shop. But it is made from solid maple and
always has tools stacked on the lower shelves. So I can get away with it.
It is very heavy.

Another suggestion I would make. If you are going to put a vise on there,
particularly a solid metal one that sits on top of the bench, think about
putting some additional wood underneath the bench to mount the vise to. A
heavy vise on a bench can introduce extra stresses on the bench. If some of
those stresses are shared by some kind of underlying structure, there is
less stress on the bench top. Of course, I will confess to building every
thing super strong. I guess that comes from seeing people hurt, growing up,
who built flimsy crap. Not me. One thing I have done on small benches like
this is to fasten numerous 2 X 4's or 6's to the top. Then install and
additional layer on top of this. I have even put down a layer of 2 X stock,
then plywood, then more sold stock over that. You can't have a top that is
too strong, heavy or sturdy!

Unless you are going to bolt this to the floor or wall, or pile on lots of
sandbags, I would expand the foot print of this thing.

[Lee Michaels]

"Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast dot net> wrote in message
news:...

> layer of 2 X stock, then plywood, then more solid stock over that. You

> can't have a top that is too strong, heavy or sturdy!
>
> Unless you are going to bolt this to the floor or wall, or pile on lots of
> sandbags, I would expand the foot print of this thing.
>

Addendum: One other thing I have seen done to stabilize narrow benches is
to install some cross pieces on the bottom of the legs. These extend out
from the bench, on the floor. I do not recommend this. People can trip
over them and get hurt. I am a bit clumsy myself and can trip over things
easily. But I have seen it done.

[tiredofspam]

Bill I agree with everyone else. The legs are too close together.
I also believe that your stretcher underneath needs to come out on the
side toward your work side. Since you have indicated you are using ply
for the top, your support should go close to the edge, but allow
yourself some clamp space. This will support your work better at the
edge if you wish to hammer a nail into something.

Also With that height, I would use at least 2x6 , maybe a 2x8 stretcher
between your legs (length wise) to prevent racking. You can do so along
the short side too. I would mortise it, but given your abilities, you
might try barrel bolts and bolting them. Or if you have a router
creating a pocket in the stretcher for a nut and bolting them.


Bill you sound like the generation X kids that need encouragement for
everything they do like even getting up in the morning. Wow great that
you got up... Wow it's great that you screwed four legs on...

How's that Bill? Am I getting better at encouragement?

[Bill]

> I took a picture and updated my website tonight for anyone who is
> curious whether I really ever do any work!
>
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> Cheers,
> Bill
>
> ====
> How many workbenches is that now? Without checking the reflections in
> shiny objects, I see three, so far.

Yes, but none with a vise. There is a hollow door on old cabinets (I am
eager to abandon), a 3-legged kitchen table, a $7 (auction) Work-Mate
which doesn't close well but still has been very handy, and my saw
horses. The new one ought to be very handy.

Thank you for observing!

Bill


>
> --
> Eric

[Bill]

Swingman wrote:
> On 6/2/2012 3:25 AM, Bill wrote:
>> tiredofspam wrote:
>>> Bill, thats ridiculous.
>>>
>>> I can cut a pretty good square using my foot to keep the 2x4 off the
>>> ground... It's not hard.
>>>
>>> Now get to work..
>>
>> Thank you for the encouragement! : )
>>
>> I took a picture and updated my website tonight for anyone who is
>> curious whether I really ever do any work!
>>
>> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> Looking good so far, Bill.
>
> Not to be critical, but the only thing that concerns me, strictly
> judging from the photos, is that the legs may be too close together for
> the height of the table?
>
> It appears that much downward pressure on a benchtop overhang larger
> than the end "aprons" may have a tendency to tip the bench.

Thank you for looking. A 26.5" long apron is supporting a 27.75" wide
top, so the benchtop overhang will only be 3/4" at the aprons. The
aprons extend 4.5" past the legs. So the legs span 17.5". My intuition
anticipates that the ratio of benchtop width to leg span = 27.75/17.5 ~
1.6, while larger than I might prefer, seems workable, especially given
the mass. The decision on top width was guided by the 9.25" width of
the SYP lumber at Menards, and other choices followed from the required
5"by5" area that my vice wants to occupy on top. Trying to maximize
support for the vise, one is led to positioning at least one leg where I
have it. 'Course, no one ways table legs have to be symetrical, but this
is my first table, and I don't want family and friends to think I
haven't seen a table before (j/k)!

The height is 40". Is there a "back of the envelope" way to estimate
it's stability? 40/17.5 ~ 2.3? (good enough?).

If is doesn't work out, I can reposition the legs outward, without any
modification all all to the long stretchers, without unreasonable
inconvenience, since I'm not planning to glue the top down. I could
make all 4 short aprons out of one 2by4. The inconvenience is dealing
with those square ("Robertson") deck screw heads which my drill is rough
on. Next time aouund I will be seeking deck screws with Torx heads!!!
If anyone else is considering a similar project they would do well to
observe that remark!

>
> Disregard if you have assured yourself that is not the case.
>
> And you are going to put another "stretcher/apron" assembly toward the
> bottom of the legs, right?

Absolutely! Hopefully, this evening!


>
>

[Bill]

Lee Michaels wrote:
>
>
> "Swingman" <k...@nospam.com> wrote
>>
>> Not to be critical, but the only thing that concerns me, strictly
>> judging from the photos, is that the legs may be too close together
>> for the height of the table?

All comments noted and appreciated! I think I'll complete version 1,
since I'm almost there, and proceed accordingly.

Thanks,
Bill

[Bill]

I will experiment, and use sandbags or equivalent as necessary. By the
way, this was originally intended as a "work table" to help me get off
the ground, so to speak, until I build my heavy bench. The "heavy
bench" is expected to have a top consisting of halfed/ripped 2by8s,
glued together. Lew make this suggestion to me almost 3 years ago, but
I started working on electrical enhancements.
Someone wrote that it takes a bench to make one, and I surely understand
the truth of that! I anticipate that the new bench will help me gain
some traction in my woodworking. I anticipate that it will be a
relative joy to complete an array of small jobs I have in mind already.

I won't hesitate to add more wood under the vise if necessary. I think
the weak spot is the 4.5" on the apron that it overshoots the leg
(adjacent to the vise). It's not like a stinking air conditioner--If I
can build it, I can fix it! I like that alot! : )

Cheers,
Bill

[Lew Hodgett]

RE: Subject

Turn this unstable table into wienie roast fuel and build a stable
bench.

It will keep you out of the local E/R.

Lew

[Bill]

tiredofspam wrote:

> Bill you sound like the generation X kids that need encouragement for
> everything they do like even getting up in the morning. Wow great that
> you got up... Wow it's great that you screwed four legs on...
>
> How's that Bill? Am I getting better at encouragement?

Awe, you may as well get off that theme. I DO enjoy communicating with
others. Because I find encouragement from the newsgroup (or magazines,
books, etc.), doesn't mean that I am asking you to provide it for me.
Just listening to a musical performance used to inspire me to play my
guitar. Viewing art inspires me to draw. Reading inspires me to think.
It may surprise you that an important part of my profession is
motivating people to think/work. Some kinds of work are 2nd nature to
me, others less so--especially since I got married. : )
You think you work more than me? I will caution you that you have to go
some to do that.

[Bill]

If I move each leg so that it was 2" from each neighoring edge, would it
satisfy your stability criteria?

It would be 58"L by 27.75"W by 40"H.

Or would you like to see it wider (or shorter)?

I put alot of thought into choosing the height, but did NOT anticipate
that the height would factor into safety when I started.

Bill

[Lew Hodgett]

"Bill" wrote:
>
> Or would you like to see it wider (or shorter)?

-------------------------

A finished bench height of 24" will keep you out of trouble.

Lew

[Eric]

"Bill" wrote in message news:jqe38...@news1.newsguy.com...

=========

Haha!

Don't blame your tools!

As long as you're having fun. Sounds like me. Organization freak!
A clean workshop is the sign of a dirty mind. Wait! Well, something like
that?
--

Eric

[Puckdropper at dot]

Bill <Bi...@nospam.net> wrote in news:jqe6v...@news4.newsguy.com:

>
> Thank you for looking. A 26.5" long apron is supporting a 27.75" wide
> top, so the benchtop overhang will only be 3/4" at the aprons. The
> aprons extend 4.5" past the legs. So the legs span 17.5". My intuition
> anticipates that the ratio of benchtop width to leg span = 27.75/17.5
> ~ 1.6, while larger than I might prefer, seems workable, especially
> given the mass. The decision on top width was guided by the 9.25"
> width of the SYP lumber at Menards, and other choices followed from
> the required 5"by5" area that my vice wants to occupy on top. Trying
> to maximize support for the vise, one is led to positioning at least
> one leg where I have it. 'Course, no one ways table legs have to be
> symetrical, but this is my first table, and I don't want family and
> friends to think I haven't seen a table before (j/k)!
>
> The height is 40". Is there a "back of the envelope" way to estimate
> it's stability? 40/17.5 ~ 2.3? (good enough?).

One thing you can try that should be simple and easy is to clamp a 2x on
the stretcher at the proposed distance. Push down on the very end and
see how hard it is to make the bench structure move. You basically have
a lever at that point, although not as simple as described in the
textbooks. *g*

> If is doesn't work out, I can reposition the legs outward, without any
> modification all all to the long stretchers, without unreasonable
> inconvenience, since I'm not planning to glue the top down. I could
> make all 4 short aprons out of one 2by4. The inconvenience is dealing
> with those square ("Robertson") deck screw heads which my drill is
> rough on. Next time aouund I will be seeking deck screws with Torx
> heads!!! If anyone else is considering a similar project they would do
> well to observe that remark!

It might be worth finding a different bit. The fit between bit and
screw needs to be tight and the bits should fit solidly into the screw.

My experience with the Phillips bits has been that there's a bunch of
bits out there that kinda work ok with Phillips "general purpose" or
"drywall" screws and only 1 or two that really work well with them. I
imagine it's the same for square drive.

Are you predrilling before attempting to drive the screws? It really
does help, even if you're not close to the edge where it's required.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

[Bill]

Puckdropper wrote:

> One thing you can try that should be simple and easy is to clamp a 2x on
> the stretcher at the proposed distance. Push down on the very end and
> see how hard it is to make the bench structure move. You basically have
> a lever at that point, although not as simple as described in the
> textbooks. *g*

Yes Puck, I have been thinking about the vertical (downward) vector that
needs to be supported. And, that the distance from the leg (fulcrum) of
the origin of that vector relates directly to the force exerted on the
leg by that vector. So if someone sets something heavy right on the
edge, I wouldn't want the table to break or cartwheel.

So at this point, we have 5" of distance past the fulcrum. I'm curious
to do the experiment you suggested and see what it takes to lift the
back legs off of the ground, or perhaps, break 5" off of the apron (s).
Wagers? ;)

Everyone knows it is easier to push over a longer pole than a shorter
pole. I would expect excessive horizontal force to result in the
screws/wood breaking loose. Intuitively, I think my pole analogy should
apply to the bench, but you have to accept that the force is being
applied at the feet (due to friction?) to make it work. I think this is
correct. I don't claim to be knowledgable about physics. I am just
trying to apply the basic leverage relation.

Cheers,
Bill

[Bill]

I have read and found to have some basis that people tend to get what
they need out of their activities, not necessarily what others or even
themselves think they need. I hope that your friend was kind enough to
laugh with you. Tool collecting seems like an honorable hobby to me. I
appreciate the way it is intertwined with, and brings about a heightened
respect for history and culture. Of course, in this case it sounds like
your friend has a collection of more modern tools. Still I have never
met a tool collector I didn't enjoy talking with.

Bill

[Lee Michaels]

"Bill" <Bi...@nospam.net> wrote in message

news:jqep9...@news6.newsguy.com...

Again, you are over thinking this. The purpose of a bench is to USE it.
For a lot of different things. And you will be applying force in many more
different ways then the lever experiment you propose. That is why I am such
a proponent of the heavy bench. They don't move around much. And when you
are drilling, sometimes, the force will be in different directions. And
when you use power tools, that adds an even different kind of dynamic.

I remember, years ago, a small time gym equipment manufacturer. He wanted
to emphasize how strong his equipment was. So he hired a guy who had
trained elephants to stand on his equipment. 40 years ago, I was making
coffee tables. I photographed them with a pickup on top of them. That is
my reference point. If they will support elephants and pickup trucks they
are strong enough. Anything less than that is suspect. ;)

[Bill]

Lee Michaels wrote:
The purpose of a bench is to USE it.
> For a lot of different things. And you will be applying force in many
> more different ways then the lever experiment you propose. That is why I
> am such a proponent of the heavy bench. They don't move around much. And
> when you are drilling, sometimes, the force will be in different
> directions. And when you use power tools, that adds an even different
> kind of dynamic.

Yes, you make a good point. I already performed Puck's experiment anyways.

In the right-hand coordinate system (remember, where the positive x-axis
rotates into the positive y-axis like the fingers on your right hand
with thumb up), force applied in the directions (0,0,-1) and (-1,0,0)
could be applied "safely". It was force in the direction (1, 0,-1) which
created a smooth flipping motion at say about 35 pounds of force, with
no boards on the top. While this is not typical usage for the bench,
as you suggest above, it is a real possibility via drilling, routing or
something and it has the potential to create a nasty accident.

Thus I dismantled the (end) arbors and Titebond-II works just fine. The
cleanup created the nicest shavings I've seen from my modern Stanley
block plane.

Thanks to everyone for their concern, especially maybe tiredofspam who
maybe I took out some frustration on. Sorry, tiredofspam.

Bill

[Bill]

tiredofspam wrote:
<snip>

> Bill you sound like the generation X kids that need encouragement for
> everything they do like even getting up in the morning. Wow great that
> you got up... Wow it's great that you screwed four legs on...
>
> How's that Bill? Am I getting better at encouragement?

When I post about things, I would estimate 95% of the time I learn
something. What do you have to prove?

[Bill]

tiredofspam wrote:
> Bill I agree with everyone else. The legs are too close together.
> I also believe that your stretcher underneath needs to come out on the
> side toward your work side. Since you have indicated you are using ply
> for the top, your support should go close to the edge, but allow
> yourself some clamp space. This will support your work better at the
> edge if you wish to hammer a nail into something.
>
> Also With that height, I would use at least 2x6 , maybe a 2x8 stretcher
> between your legs (length wise) to prevent racking. You can do so along
> the short side too. I would mortise it, but given your abilities, you
> might try barrel bolts and bolting them. Or if you have a router
> creating a pocket in the stretcher for a nut and bolting them.

After I make a bench I'll practice my joinery. Unfortunately I can't use
plywood due to sensitivity--at least not new stuff. This is not really
intended to be a heavy duty bench. That's another project. But if I get
racking, I will upgrade to a heavier stretcher as you suggested. Thank you.

Bill

[Joe >]

As a preventive 'fix', the base depth can be
increased by making an upside-down T that
ties front and rear legs together at floor, but
extends past legs.
Consider torque. Join at sides.
See pictures at:
http://woodworkbenches.net/choosing-the-best-workbench-designs/
and
http://16kwoodworkingplans.com/basic-woodwork-project-the-workbench/
-J

[Unquestionably Confused]

On 6/2/2012 6:21 PM, Bill wrote:

>> Unless you are going to bolt this to the floor or wall, or pile on lots
>> of sandbags, I would expand the foot print of this thing.
>
> All comments noted and appreciated! I think I'll complete version 1,
> since I'm almost there, and proceed accordingly.

Something that you might consider to salvage your completed work:

Use some 1/2" or 3/4" plywood glued/screwed to the outside (or inside of
the legs. (You could go from there and build in some drawers or cubbys
beneath the bench top.

Make a trestle style base of 2x stock to give those legs a slightly
larger footprint and added stability.

Not being critical, but what was going through your head in the planning
stages of this bench that caused you to run the spreaders inside the
legs rather than on the outside?

[Larry Jaques]

On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 04:22:10 -0400, Bill <Bi...@nospam.net> wrote:

>tiredofspam wrote:
>> Bill I agree with everyone else. The legs are too close together.
>> I also believe that your stretcher underneath needs to come out on the
>> side toward your work side. Since you have indicated you are using ply
>> for the top, your support should go close to the edge, but allow
>> yourself some clamp space. This will support your work better at the
>> edge if you wish to hammer a nail into something.
>>
>> Also With that height, I would use at least 2x6 , maybe a 2x8 stretcher
>> between your legs (length wise) to prevent racking. You can do so along
>> the short side too. I would mortise it, but given your abilities, you
>> might try barrel bolts and bolting them. Or if you have a router
>> creating a pocket in the stretcher for a nut and bolting them.
>
>After I make a bench I'll practice my joinery. Unfortunately I can't use
>plywood due to sensitivity--at least not new stuff.

Sensitivity to what? Formaldehyde, urea, phenol, or what? Have you
tried the "organic" ply from a Green supplier? (Or bamboo plywood?
It's beautiful.)

>This is not really
>intended to be a heavy duty bench. That's another project. But if I get
>racking, I will upgrade to a heavier stretcher as you suggested. Thank you.

I'd be more worried about tipping, Bill.

[Swingman]

On 6/3/2012 7:20 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:

> Not being critical, but what was going through your head in the planning
> stages of this bench that caused you to run the spreaders inside the
> legs rather than on the outside?

Absolutely nothing structurally wrong with that concept in the least:

http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Bench.jpg

AAMOF, it has some elements that makes it inherently flexible. Here is
that same bench in use today:

https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopRetrofit2011#5625196966540508658

The only thing questionable about the implementation of Bill's design so
far is the legs possibly being too close together on the ends, relative
to the height, at least for the use he originally expressed.

Working with what he already has, and providing the floor of his shop is
flat enough to allow without too much shimming, this would solve that
problem in a few minutes:

https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopJustStuff#5749802209728138530

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

[Puckdropper at dot]

Swingman <k...@nospam.com> wrote in
news:TY-dnWuTS8ui-lbS...@giganews.com:

*snip*

>
> Working with what he already has, and providing the floor of his shop
> is flat enough to allow without too much shimming, this would solve
> that problem in a few minutes:
>
> https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopJustStuff#5
> 749802209728138530
>

I like it. Nice and easy and it would only use a minimal amount of wood.

Notice how the ends have an angled cut on them? That will be much nicer
to step on or roll something against (Why do they put long cords and
small wheels on vacuums?) than just a straight end.

[John Grossbohlin]

"Bill" <Bi...@nospam.net> wrote in message

news:jqer1...@news6.newsguy.com...

> John Grossbohlin wrote:
>>
>> He's slowly been building a new
>> shop... "to house your tool collection" I asked? ;~)
>>
>> John
>
>
> I have read and found to have some basis that people tend to get what they
> need out of their activities, not necessarily what others or even
> themselves think they need. I hope that your friend was kind enough to
> laugh with you. Tool collecting seems like an honorable hobby to me. I
> appreciate the way it is intertwined with, and brings about a heightened
> respect for history and culture. Of course, in this case it sounds like
> your friend has a collection of more modern tools. Still I have never met
> a tool collector I didn't enjoy talking with.

Yeah... we both laughed about it. It's not that he isn't interested in
making other things it's more of a time and money thing that goes with
having a house, wife, job, and other responsibilities. His tools are late
model and like new....

I understand your point.... I recall meeting a retired guy at a waterfall
while out bicycling one time. The site had been used for target shooting for
many decades and rumor had it that it was used for same back to the civil
war and before. Anyhow, he had a new Ruger 10/22 and a Ruger .22 semi auto
pistol. He fired one magazine from each, i.e., 10 shots from each, wiped
them down and put them in their cases. To me that seemed odd.... Years
later, having sons, I buy .22s by the case (5,000) and it's not usual to go
through a 1,000 at a range session. ;~) Anyhow, I asked him if he was done
so I could walk around the falls a bit. The discussion continued and he went
on to explain that he had had a life long photography hobby but between the
demands of friends and family for his photography skills it was no longer
pleasurable. He sold all of his photography equipment and bought a couple
.22s as that was something that could be his alone to enjoy. That encounter
was memorable and I try to remember the lesson learned.

That said, sometimes people just need encouragement or guidance to help them
reach a higher level that they themselves desire. For example, recently a
woman I mentored for years was moved to a different department under an
organizational realignment. Let's just say that my training, education and
experience are at a much higher level than that of the department where she
landed. After about two weeks of seeing how things worked in her new
department she came back to me and said "I've never felt so smart in my
whole life!" and "I understand now how far I've come." While working with me
she hadn't quite gained the self confidence that she should have had and it
took exposure to her new assignment for her to understand how far she'd
come. She will become a star there in short order... no doubt about it. This
mentoring experience turned out to be a very good experience for me too
though it was challenging for both of us at times.

John

[Swingman]

On 6/3/2012 10:51 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:


> That said, sometimes people just need encouragement or guidance to help
> them reach a higher level that they themselves desire. For example,
> recently a woman I mentored for years was moved to a different
> department under an organizational realignment. Let's just say that my
> training, education and experience are at a much higher level than that
> of the department where she landed. After about two weeks of seeing how
> things worked in her new department she came back to me and said "I've
> never felt so smart in my whole life!" and "I understand now how far
> I've come." While working with me she hadn't quite gained the self
> confidence that she should have had and it took exposure to her new
> assignment for her to understand how far she'd come. She will become a
> star there in short order... no doubt about it. This mentoring
> experience turned out to be a very good experience for me too though it
> was challenging for both of us at times.

Great story ...

[John Grossbohlin]

"Larry Jaques" <lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote in message
news:h7oms7djlucj946n3...@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 04:22:10 -0400, Bill <Bi...@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>>tiredofspam wrote:
>>> Bill I agree with everyone else. The legs are too close together.
>>> I also believe that your stretcher underneath needs to come out on the
>>> side toward your work side. Since you have indicated you are using ply
>>> for the top, your support should go close to the edge, but allow
>>> yourself some clamp space. This will support your work better at the
>>> edge if you wish to hammer a nail into something.
>>>
>>> Also With that height, I would use at least 2x6 , maybe a 2x8 stretcher
>>> between your legs (length wise) to prevent racking. You can do so along
>>> the short side too. I would mortise it, but given your abilities, you
>>> might try barrel bolts and bolting them. Or if you have a router
>>> creating a pocket in the stretcher for a nut and bolting them.
>>
>>After I make a bench I'll practice my joinery. Unfortunately I can't use
>>plywood due to sensitivity--at least not new stuff.
>
> Sensitivity to what? Formaldehyde, urea, phenol, or what? Have you
> tried the "organic" ply from a Green supplier? (Or bamboo plywood?
> It's beautiful.)

For materials that outgas for a while when new I typically put them in a
warm place with a lot of ventilation for a while before bringing them into a
closed environment. That goes for sheet goods, polyester fiber fill quilt
batting my wife uses, new shower curtain liners, carpet type rugs, etc.
About 22 years ago I had flu like symptoms for many months before I figured
out it was chemical out gassing that was making me ill... I threw away the
new pillows for my bed and the symptoms disappeared!

John

[tiredofspam]

Bill here is my workbench
http://imgur.com/a/YbWt2#0

You will see the current and previous workbenches.
Let me explain the current...
Big ass stretchers. I do a lot of hand planing and I didn't want racking.

I see benches as someone provided a link to where the stretcher is on
the top and bottom. That serves no purpose and will rack like crazy.

My stretchers on the ends are big ass dovetails and through mortise and
tenon with wedges.

The big stretchers that on the long sides are made to prevent racking.
And so far I have yet to move this bench the slightest even with heavy
planing. I have clamp space on the top and this bench weighs over
300lbs... it's not going anywhere.

Top: Maple
Legs and stretchers Beech with walnut wedges.

[Bill]

Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 04:22:10 -0400, Bill<Bi...@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>> tiredofspam wrote:
>>> Bill I agree with everyone else. The legs are too close together.
>>> I also believe that your stretcher underneath needs to come out on the
>>> side toward your work side. Since you have indicated you are using ply
>>> for the top, your support should go close to the edge, but allow
>>> yourself some clamp space. This will support your work better at the
>>> edge if you wish to hammer a nail into something.
>>>
>>> Also With that height, I would use at least 2x6 , maybe a 2x8 stretcher
>>> between your legs (length wise) to prevent racking. You can do so along
>>> the short side too. I would mortise it, but given your abilities, you
>>> might try barrel bolts and bolting them. Or if you have a router
>>> creating a pocket in the stretcher for a nut and bolting them.
>>
>> After I make a bench I'll practice my joinery. Unfortunately I can't use
>> plywood due to sensitivity--at least not new stuff.
>
> Sensitivity to what? Formaldehyde, urea, phenol, or what? Have you
> tried the "organic" ply from a Green supplier? (Or bamboo plywood?
> It's beautiful.)

Formaldehyde. Home Depot wells some Formaldehyde-free plywood.
It is lighter-weight, doesn't get rave reviews and it is pricey, but
I'll probably try it in the future anyway. I'll keep my eyes open for
other sources too, as you suggest.

Bill

[Bill]

Swingman,

Thank you for making this post/(reply to UC). As I mentioned last night,
I already removed the end arbors and cleaned up the legs.

Attaching the end grain of the legs to an "extended base" would have
been an interesting option, but I have no regret on what I already did.
I've noticed that the design I have for a "big bench" has the pedestal
feature that you and others have described.

Cheers,
Bill

[Bill]

Yes, A concise way to remember it is that "People will tend to get what
they 'need' out of their activities." Interesting story.

>
> That said, sometimes people just need encouragement or guidance to help
> them reach a higher level that they themselves desire.

I agree. Of course, now you are pushing them from what they 'need' into
what you want. And mere exposure might sometimes substitute for
encouragement and guidance. I recall my first week at my first
programming job as a new graduate. I examined the work that the
experienced person at the desk to my right was doing, and thought to
myself "WOW!, The standards/expectations for documentation,
code-clarity, etc." just went up 2-levels!", and I strived to make that
level my new normal. Of course, one doesn't just automatically produce
at a higher level just by striving to do so, but I think it's a good start!

Cheers,
Bill

[Bill]

I learned my lesson through manufactured (assemble yourself) furniture.
I was in disbelief that the mere presense of a "piece of furniture"
could "make me sick" (sweating, shortness of breath). But the evidence
was undeniable. It took me a long time to figure out "out-gassing" too.
In our society, it is a truth "swept under the rug". I still can't say
I know all of the products that are "bad" (nor I think, does anyone),
but I proceed now in an aware manner.

Bill


>
>

[Bill]

tiredofspam wrote:
> Bill here is my workbench
> http://imgur.com/a/YbWt2#0
>
> You will see the current and previous workbenches.
> Let me explain the current...
> Big ass stretchers. I do a lot of hand planing and I didn't want racking.

Very nice looking work. I will similarly place my stetchers, but
(unfortunately) with screws this time. Thank you for the lesson!

Bill

[Eric]

"Bill" wrote in message news:jqedn...@news6.newsguy.com...

=========

I think he was hinting about you getting your legs screwed off in the
morning and wanted to hear details??

Any pics?

--

Eric

[Eric]

"Bill" wrote in message news:jqe6v...@news4.newsguy.com...

Swingman wrote:
> Not to be critical, but the only thing that concerns me, strictly
> judging from the photos, is that the legs may be too close together for
> the height of the table?
>
> It appears that much downward pressure on a benchtop overhang larger
> than the end "aprons" may have a tendency to tip the bench.

Thank you for looking. A 26.5" long apron is supporting a 27.75" wide
top, so the benchtop overhang will only be 3/4" at the aprons. The
aprons extend 4.5" past the legs. So the legs span 17.5". My intuition
anticipates that the ratio of benchtop width to leg span = 27.75/17.5 ~
1.6, while larger than I might prefer, seems workable, especially given
the mass. The decision on top width was guided by the 9.25" width of
the SYP lumber at Menards, and other choices followed from the required
5"by5" area that my vice wants to occupy on top. Trying to maximize
support for the vise, one is led to positioning at least one leg where I
have it. 'Course, no one ways table legs have to be symetrical, but this
is my first table, and I don't want family and friends to think I
haven't seen a table before (j/k)!

The height is 40". Is there a "back of the envelope" way to estimate
it's stability? 40/17.5 ~ 2.3? (good enough?).

If is doesn't work out, I can reposition the legs outward, without any
modification all all to the long stretchers, without unreasonable
inconvenience, since I'm not planning to glue the top down. I could
make all 4 short aprons out of one 2by4. The inconvenience is dealing
with those square ("Robertson") deck screw heads which my drill is rough
on. Next time aouund I will be seeking deck screws with Torx heads!!!
If anyone else is considering a similar project they would do well to
observe that remark!

==========

I'll second that! All those in favour?
Should we make up an official ballot?

--

Eric

[Bill]

Eric wrote:

> I think he was hinting about you getting your legs screwed off in the
> morning and wanted to hear details??
>

I filled up a bucket of plane lofty shavings by the time I cleaned up
all of the surfaces that were glued. Both the new surfaces and the
plane shavings possess and possessed, respectively, their own beauty.


> Any pics?
>
You'll have to imagine them.




> --
>
> Eric

[Swingman]

On 6/2/2012 3:25 AM, Bill wrote:
> tiredofspam wrote:
>> Bill, thats ridiculous.
>>
>> I can cut a pretty good square using my foot to keep the 2x4 off the
>> ground... It's not hard.
>>
>> Now get to work..
>
> Thank you for the encouragement! : )
>
> I took a picture and updated my website tonight for anyone who is
> curious whether I really ever do any work!
>
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

Here ya go, Bill ... a REAL workbench, and made by a girl no less, but
Kari is one helluva fine woodworker:

http://villagecarpenter.blogspot.com/2012/04/roubo-finished.html

https://plus.google.com/103633911620354612868/posts

Something to aspire to ...

[tiredofspam]

she's awesome.

Thanks for pointing her out. Very nice work.

[Bill]

Swingman wrote:
> On 6/2/2012 3:25 AM, Bill wrote:
>> tiredofspam wrote:
>>> Bill, thats ridiculous.
>>>
>>> I can cut a pretty good square using my foot to keep the 2x4 off the
>>> ground... It's not hard.
>>>
>>> Now get to work..
>>
>> Thank you for the encouragement! : )
>>
>> I took a picture and updated my website tonight for anyone who is
>> curious whether I really ever do any work!
>>
>> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> Here ya go, Bill ... a REAL workbench, and made by a girl no less, but
> Kari is one helluva fine woodworker:

I guess so! Very nice!

I had to take a day or two off. I went back to the store for a couple
more 2by4s today. I am basically back to where I was at my last photo
session--except I'm sporting a 24-tooth blade now. I've made a couple
of "perfect" cuts with the speed square, but they are in the minority. I
check my results with a combination square. I think one of my best cuts
occurred when I had lots of "push" behind the saw and barely looked at
the saw guide. I hope your projects are going well!

Bill

[Eric]

I always use the mitre saw. I don't cut straight freehand.

--------------
"Bill" wrote in message news:jqp4v...@news4.newsguy.com...

[Bill]

Eric wrote:
> I always use the mitre saw. I don't cut straight freehand.

Took me a while to figure out you mean a power miter saw!
Yes, one of those definitely would have come in handy.
I have my dad's old (wooden) miter saw in the garage. :)
I believe they still make them.

I do pretty well with a hand saw--in fact, I switched to cutting
my 2by4s with one--a 20" saw made by Irwin. I can make more accurate
cuts in less time overall than with a CS it seems. I haven't failed to
get it right the first time with a hand saw yet. It marked contrast to
what I have done this week with a CS! : )

[Lee Michaels]

"Bill" <Bi...@nospam.net> wrote

>> --------------
>> "Bill" wrote in message news:jqp4v...@news4.newsguy.com...
>> I had to take a day or two off. I went back to the store for a couple
>> more 2by4s today. I am basically back to where I was at my last photo
>> session--except I'm sporting a 24-tooth blade now. I've made a couple
>> of "perfect" cuts with the speed square, but they are in the minority. I
>> check my results with a combination square. I think one of my best cuts
>> occurred when I had lots of "push" behind the saw and barely looked at
>> the saw guide. I hope your projects are going well!
>>

It only works if you have a sharp saw. And since very few people have the
skills or jigs to sharpen hand saws, that means you end up buying a new saw
when the old one gets dull. But they are good for people who are an
accident waiting to happen with any kind of power tool. I bought several of
the Stanley Fat Max hand saws for folks who should never use power tools. I
even have a couple of them myself. If I need to do very much work, I get
out the power tools. But if I only need to cut one or two small boards, it
is hand saw time. It is just faster and simpler.

[Bill]

Lee Michaels wrote:

> If I need to do very
> much work, I get out the power tools. But if I only need to cut one or
> two small boards, it is hand saw time. It is just faster and simpler.
>

I agree. I find using a handsaw enjoyable work, in moderation!

[Swingman]

On 6/9/2012 2:13 AM, Bill wrote:

> I have my dad's old (wooden) miter saw in the garage. :)
> I believe they still make them.

Depending upon the make and the model, take care of it. Some of those
vintage miter saws are getting to be highly prized.

When doing the smaller trim on a kitchen cabinet, like on the visible
end panels with a scribe strip still showing, I much prefer to do the
cutting by hand with my old miter box.

[Eric]

"Bill" wrote in message news:jqv7c...@news7.newsguy.com...

===

With about 20 years experience, each. with a hand saw and mitre saw I found
I have cut myself an infinite amount more times ('mericun ratio) with the
hand saw. I can't ever remember cutting myself with the power unit but
slipped many times with the hand saw and it jumped over my thumb onto my
flesh somewhere. Maybe this is because the power mitre saw scares the hell
out of me. Best $179 I ever spent, thrice (Brit ratio).

--

Eric

[Eric]

"Swingman" wrote in message
news:TKadnRqfOL_Y0E7S...@giganews.com...

On 6/9/2012 2:13 AM, Bill wrote:

> I have my dad's old (wooden) miter saw in the garage. :)
> I believe they still make them.

Depending upon the make and the model, take care of it. Some of those
vintage miter saws are getting to be highly prized.

When doing the smaller trim on a kitchen cabinet, like on the visible
end panels with a scribe strip still showing, I much prefer to do the
cutting by hand with my old miter box.

=====

The old mitre box does have an advantage. You can pull out an old hack saw
with a fine blade for small trim and very few splits. 80 teeth 10-12" power
saws can't compare.

--

Eric

[Bill]

tiredofspam wrote:
> Bill I agree with everyone else. The legs are too close together.
> I also believe that your stretcher underneath needs to come out on the
> side toward your work side. Since you have indicated you are using ply
> for the top, your support should go close to the edge, but allow
> yourself some clamp space. This will support your work better at the
> edge if you wish to hammer a nail into something.

I posted 3 pics of the virtually-finished result, in case anyone would
like to see them. It's basically Swingman's design stretched to
58"L x27"W x 40"H. The height feels like it was made for me! : )

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

Thank you, again, to everyone who helped!

Bill

[tiredofspam]

Looks good. You might want to chamfer the edges of the 4x4 bottoms. So
if you drag the bench you won't splinter the outer edge. Just a little,
not a lot.. it doesn't take much to protect it.
A block plane can do the job, just back it up with another piece of
wood, or plane to the center.. (a little more difficult)

[Mike Marlow]

Glad to see you got it done Bill. Good job. Now get busy and get some
clutter on the top of that thing...

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Swingman]

That should last you a while, good work! This is an effective, simple,
sturdy, versatile, and very inexpensive to make bench design which can
be knocked together in short order.

Only thing I would have done differently, and it can still be done in
ten minutes, it to add two screws to each of the short side stretchers,
into the end grain of the long side stretchers.

Every little bit of added stability adds to the total, and just 16 more
screws won't break the piggy bank.

YMMV ...

Thirty years from now you will still be using that puppy!

[Bill]

tiredofspam wrote:
> Looks good.
> You might want to chamfer the edges of the 4x4 bottoms.

Thank you. I think that's a good suggestion. I appreciate your
comment on a technique to use too. Just thinking about it was a good lesson.

Bill

[Bill]

Swingman wrote:

> Only thing I would have done differently, and it can still be done in
> ten minutes, it to add two screws to each of the short side stretchers,
> into the end grain of the long side stretchers.
>
> Every little bit of added stability adds to the total, and just 16 more
> screws won't break the piggy bank.
>

Thank you, I will add the 16 screws. I guess screws into end grain may
do a lot better than nails into end grain (which, as you know better
than I do, have little holding power).

Maybe I'll add 1 more screw for a pencil holder!

>
> Thirty years from now you will still be using that puppy!

Nope, it's not going to fall apart! I hope I have an opportunity to
prove you correct, or even incorrect! :-)

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 07:56:55 -0500, Swingman <k...@nospam.com> wrote:

>On 6/20/2012 4:48 AM, Bill wrote:
>> tiredofspam wrote:
>>> Bill I agree with everyone else. The legs are too close together.
>>> I also believe that your stretcher underneath needs to come out on the
>>> side toward your work side. Since you have indicated you are using ply
>>> for the top, your support should go close to the edge, but allow
>>> yourself some clamp space. This will support your work better at the
>>> edge if you wish to hammer a nail into something.
>>
>>
>> I posted 3 pics of the virtually-finished result, in case anyone would
>> like to see them. It's basically Swingman's design stretched to
>> 58"L x27"W x 40"H. The height feels like it was made for me! : )
>>
>http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>>
>> Thank you, again, to everyone who helped!
>
>That should last you a while, good work! This is an effective, simple,
>sturdy, versatile, and very inexpensive to make bench design which can
>be knocked together in short order.
>
>Only thing I would have done differently, and it can still be done in
>ten minutes, it to add two screws to each of the short side stretchers,
>into the end grain of the long side stretchers.
>
>Every little bit of added stability adds to the total, and just 16 more
>screws won't break the piggy bank.

How about a 3/4" plywood shelf on top of the stretchers. That would add a lot
of rigidity in side impacts and some heavy stuff stored there would help
stability.

[Joe >]

Glad you got - now make sawdust!

[Swingman]

On 6/20/2012 7:56 PM, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:

> How about a 3/4" plywood shelf on top of the stretchers. That would add a lot
> of rigidity in side impacts and some heavy stuff stored there would help
> stability.

Yep, you're right ... and that's the first thing I added to a similar
one about ten years ago:

http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Bench.jpg

[Dave]

On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 20:43:57 -0500, Swingman <k...@nospam.com> wrote:

>Yep, you're right ... and that's the first thing I added to a similar
>one about ten years ago:
>http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Bench.jpg

Noticed the vise on that bench. Have you ever seen any sag on the end
of the bench from the weight of it?

The reason I'm asking is that I've got a Record 53 vise that I am
going to mount on a 1.3/4" laminated maple bench. I figure it's over
50 lbs. It's considerably wider than the one you've got and I'll have
to move the legs inward at that end at least a foot.

Don't laugh at me, but I'm worried about the end of the bench sagging
form the weight. Am I being paranoid?

[Larry Jaques]

On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 20:43:57 -0500, Swingman <k...@nospam.com> wrote:

>On 6/20/2012 7:56 PM, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>
>> How about a 3/4" plywood shelf on top of the stretchers. That would add a lot
>> of rigidity in side impacts and some heavy stuff stored there would help
>> stability.
>
>Yep, you're right ... and that's the first thing I added to a similar
>one about ten years ago:
>
>http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Bench.jpg

I'm still working off the old (1974?) Home Depot $25 Special made from
1-1/4" termite barf, 4x4 SPF, and pristine 1x4 pineywood.

--
It is easier to fool people than it is to
convince people that they have been fooled.
--Mark Twain

[Swingman]

Never had a problem, and that bench top is just a solid core door with a
Masonite type skin on it, but my vise is not that heavy. I would think that
with sufficient apron mass, and a 4x leg close by to transfer the weight
down to the floor, that 50 lbs would not be of great concern. For a couple
of years I had a Delta Mortiser more or less permanently attached to the
other end and never had a problem with it ... is your vise that heavy?

--
www.ewoodshop.com

[Swingman]

Larry Jaques <lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 20:43:57 -0500, Swingman <k...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> On 6/20/2012 7:56 PM, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>
>>> How about a 3/4" plywood shelf on top of the stretchers. That would add a lot
>>> of rigidity in side impacts and some heavy stuff stored there would help
>>> stability.
>>
>> Yep, you're right ... and that's the first thing I added to a similar
>> one about ten years ago:
>>
>> http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Bench.jpg
>
> I'm still working off the old (1974?) Home Depot $25 Special made from
> 1-1/4" termite barf, 4x4 SPF, and pristine 1x4 pineywood.

My bench gets so cluttered that I find myself working on the 3/4" plywood
out feed table most of the time ... unsturdy folding legs and all.

--
www.ewoodshop.com

[Larry Jaques]

I've only seen and used the vise on my bench in the past ten years.
<g> You know how it is: each and every horizontal surface is filled
within a minute of being cleared.

[-MIKE-]

On 6/20/12 10:18 PM, Swingman wrote:
> My bench gets so cluttered that I find myself working on the 3/4" plywood
> out feed table most of the time ... unsturdy folding legs and all.
>

I'm doing that right now.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

[Puckdropper at dot]

Larry Jaques <lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote in
news:6l55u7p1qug3v82ps...@4ax.com:

>
> I've only seen and used the vise on my bench in the past ten years.
> <g> You know how it is: each and every horizontal surface is filled
> within a minute of being cleared.

The solution to that (if you'd have seen my workspaces you'd be laughing
now) is to build more horizontal surfaces. Put stuff on there instead of
your bench and clean off your bench every now and again.

Eventually, you'll have enough horizontal surfaces that not all of them
will be full. Then you'll go to the store...

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

[Bill]

k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:

> How about a 3/4" plywood shelf on top of the stretchers. That would add a lot
> of rigidity in side impacts and some heavy stuff stored there would help
> stability.

Maybe down the road a bit. I am not without project ideas.

FWIW, this evening I:

-- turned it upside down and beveled the 4 feet
with a block plane (thanks tiredofspam).

-- added the 16 additional screws suggested by Swingman, countersunk.

-- added a .09" shim under one end of the rear top board to improve it's
fit--it's "close enough to perfect" at both ends (thanks Alabama). I
created it from a paint mixing stick and a sheet of 80 grit. And Yes,
the batteries in the Harbor Freight digital calipers DO always seem to
go dead on the shelf. I still used it to estimate I needed .1" reading
from its rule. I used the micrometer Doug Miller sold me to measure the
.09".

--I used WD-40 to clean all the gunk off the new vise my wife bought for
Christams about 5 years ago. I promptly got quite sick (at that time)
hand-sanding the piece of plywood I was going to put it on. I did
breathe a little of the dust. But as I've mentioned here before, I've
had issues just being in the same room with fresh plywood/particle board.

I'm wondering whether I might do okay with a couple of small pieces of
something along the lines of Baltic Birch style plywood to mount above
and below the bench for the vise (hoping that it outgasses less or
slower than cheaper plywood)? If you knew how sick I got/get you'd
understand my trepidation. It's a "scary shortness of breath" sick. But
knowing the source (s) makes it better than when you don't know...and I
already endured that. Last time I checked, the Formaldehyde-free
plywood that Home Depot sells was only "countertop-grade" stuff, and I
haven't tried it yet. I see little alternative but to experiment a
little. The Baltic Birch stuff would be handy for jigs too... Anyone
have a favorite homemade-plywood recipe?

Is counter-grade stuff good enough for my vise application (reviews say
it's got gaps in it...)? Other F-Free substitutes? To me, my sense of
well-being is more important than stability.

Cheers,
Bill

[Bill]

> Larry Jaques <lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote in
> news:6l55u7p1qug3v82ps...@4ax.com:
>
>>
>> I've only seen and used the vise on my bench in the past ten years.
>> <g> You know how it is: each and every horizontal surface is filled
>> within a minute of being cleared.

Are you making adequate use of pegboard? I think that's where I'm going
next. I mean after I do the next 4 or 5 big projects on my list. I need
to get back to my drywall and painting, so I can get some of those
lights up!

I've seen some interesting storage ideas in Shop Notes, if you are
looking for a storage project!

A "Mobile clamp holder" is on my project list--a way to store the
fifteen 4-foot pipe clamps I got to glue a heavy workbench top
(someday), or a kitchen table top. My new impact driver should help make
easy work of that. I hope you are enjoying your new one.

[Dave]

On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 22:12:20 -0500, Swingman <k...@nospam.com> wrote:
>of years I had a Delta Mortiser more or less permanently attached to the
>other end and never had a problem with it ... is your vise that heavy?

According to amazon.co.uk, it's 18.6 kilos, so that's just over 40lbs,
but mine doesn't have an integrated bench dog and their's does, so
it's not exactly the same. It's all I can do to lift this beast off
the ground and place it on the bench. I'm reasonably sure it's more
than twice as heavy as my Senco PC1010 20lb compressor. Think it's the
biggest vise that Record built.

It really is massive which was one of the reasons why I could see it
almost fifty yards away as I was driving by. Bought it at a deceased
owner's yard sale. Only decent tool that was there. No questions
asked, I paid the asked for $75 on the spot for it. This was before
the wheelchair, some thirtyfive years ago. Don't quite remember, but I
think I ran full speed back to the car with it and left pretty fast.

[Bill]

Bill wrote:

> I'm wondering whether I might do okay with a couple of small pieces of
> something along the lines of Baltic Birch style plywood to mount above
> and below the bench for the vise (hoping that it outgasses less or
> slower than cheaper plywood)? If you knew how sick I got/get you'd
> understand my trepidation. It's a "scary shortness of breath" sick. But
> knowing the source (s) makes it better than when you don't know...and I
> already endured that. Last time I checked, the Formaldehyde-free
> plywood that Home Depot sells was only "countertop-grade" stuff, and I
> haven't tried it yet. I see little alternative but to experiment a
> little. The Baltic Birch stuff would be handy for jigs too... Anyone
> have a favorite homemade-plywood recipe?
>
> Is counter-grade stuff good enough for my vise application (reviews say
> it's got gaps in it...)? Other F-Free substitutes? To me, my sense of
> well-being is more important than stability.
>
> Cheers,
> Bill

I spent a couple of (more) hours looking into plywood again tonight.
Enough. I have an old lengh of Ash. I think I'll try a couple of
pieces of that where I would have used the plywood, unless someone tells
me it's a crappy idea. :) Ash (White) scores 1320 on the Janka
Hardness Scale. I couldn't locate a Janka rating for any plywood to use
for the sake of comparison. I planned to get some Yellow Poplar to put
in my vise jaws, but perhaps two halves of a short length of 2by4 would
work just as well. My intuition says that may be better for working with
Yellow Poplar (as long as it will hold it)--and that's something I'd
like to do.

Bill

[Larry Jaques]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 02:33:48 -0400, Bill <Bi...@nospam.net> wrote:

>
>> Larry Jaques <lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote in
>> news:6l55u7p1qug3v82ps...@4ax.com:
>>
>>>
>>> I've only seen and used the vise on my bench in the past ten years.
>>> <g> You know how it is: each and every horizontal surface is filled
>>> within a minute of being cleared.
>
>Are you making adequate use of pegboard? I think that's where I'm going
>next. I mean after I do the next 4 or 5 big projects on my list. I need
>to get back to my drywall and painting, so I can get some of those
>lights up!

I'll start using pegboard the day I become a member of the Handyman
Club of America, Bill. (It'll be a cold day in hell, IOW.) I hate the
stuff.

>I've seen some interesting storage ideas in Shop Notes, if you are
>looking for a storage project!

I need to build and put up more cabinets. But that's AFTER I get rid
of all the sheer -crap- in my shop. I've reclaimed about 64 square
feet so far, with another 50 or so to go. I now have enough room to
finish the CNC router. Craigslist has been a boon, getting rid of
all the unfinished repair projects I decided didn't need to get done
in the first place. I got $100 for the riding mower with the blown
engine yesterday, but it wasn't stored inside. My yard is looking
better.

>A "Mobile clamp holder" is on my project list--a way to store the
>fifteen 4-foot pipe clamps I got to glue a heavy workbench top
>(someday), or a kitchen table top.

I'm thinking about dismantling mine. It's in the way more often than
not, and I have wall space under the cabs.

>My new impact driver should help make
>easy work of that. I hope you are enjoying your new one.

Yeah, I love my Makita. What'd you buy, again?

--
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.
-- Sir Winston Churchill

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 20:37:30 -0700, Larry Jaques

<lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 22:18:44 -0500, Swingman <k...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>>Larry Jaques <lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 20:43:57 -0500, Swingman <k...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 6/20/2012 7:56 PM, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> How about a 3/4" plywood shelf on top of the stretchers. That would add a lot
>>>>> of rigidity in side impacts and some heavy stuff stored there would help
>>>>> stability.
>>>>
>>>> Yep, you're right ... and that's the first thing I added to a similar
>>>> one about ten years ago:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Bench.jpg
>>>
>>> I'm still working off the old (1974?) Home Depot $25 Special made from
>>> 1-1/4" termite barf, 4x4 SPF, and pristine 1x4 pineywood.
>>
>>My bench gets so cluttered that I find myself working on the 3/4" plywood
>>out feed table most of the time ... unsturdy folding legs and all.
>
>I've only seen and used the vise on my bench in the past ten years.
><g> You know how it is: each and every horizontal surface is filled
>within a minute of being cleared.

Nature abhors a horizontal space.

[tiredofspam]

Well Bill you might try a quality respirator (for the formaldehyde) ,
and a fan together (for dust and form..) .
See if you can get a small squirrel cage fan... Then make an enclosure
for a high quality filter to catch the dust. Re-direct the output
outside using hoses.. That respirator and fan should solve your problem
unless you have a beard.

I'll post a picture of a sanding unit I made a long time ago shortly.

[tiredofspam]

On 6/21/2012 8:18 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:

> I'll start using pegboard the day I become a member of the Handyman
> Club of America, Bill. (It'll be a cold day in hell, IOW.) I hate the
> stuff.

Larry tell us how you really feel...

Larry, with the little black plastic clips the holders don't come off.
They actually make good sense, unless you have a cabinet where every
tool has a spot.

I would love to make one to mount all my hand planes. But for now they
stay in the drawer.

[Steve Turner]

I posted a picture of a hand plane rack that I made over on
alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking. Perhaps it would be of interest to you.

--
Any given amount of traffic flow, no matter how
sparse, will expand to fill all available lanes.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/