Kreg pocket holes not drilling cleanly

[Greg Guarino]

I'm a Kreg novice. I've now used the system for 2 projects and a couple
of small utility shelves. It's very convenient. But the holes,
especially in solid wood, don't drill cleanly. Specifically, the
left-hand edge of each hole (that's the side that the drill bit cutting
edge would be "emerging" from, as opposed to the side that the bit edge
would enter the wood) comes out raggedy-looking. Here's a photo, which
is not terribly detailed:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/7815429234/sizes/h/in/photostream/

I cleaned them up a bit with a utility knife before I took the photo.
They end up with thin "fingers" of wood over the hole at the left edge.
If I ever use pocket hole s even inside a cabinet, I'd like them to be a
little neater.

These holes aren't going to show; this is a "frame" to hide the ugly
plaster hole left by the guys who put a through-the-wall air conditioner
in my Mom's house. In this case, the wood is maple. But it did the same
sort of thing in pine. I think I used a cordless drill this time, but
used a corded one (higher rpm, I think) with similar results on the last
project.

I will add the tally on this bit is only maybe 100 holes. Any ideas?

[Artemus]

"Greg Guarino" <gdgu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:k0u2su$212$1...@dont-email.me...

That happens to me occasionally too. The jig is supposed to fit
tightly to the wood and provide a backer to minimize this. However,
when I get careless and leave a bit of sawdust between the jig & the
wood I get what you describe. If you don't clamp the jig tightly enough
or if the jig is worn you would likely get it too.
Art

[Swingman]

On 8/20/2012 2:24 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:

> These holes aren't going to show; this is a "frame" to hide the ugly
> plaster hole left by the guys who put a through-the-wall air conditioner
> in my Mom's house. In this case, the wood is maple. But it did the same
> sort of thing in pine. I think I used a cordless drill this time, but
> used a corded one (higher rpm, I think) with similar results on the last
> project.

The grain of the wood is most likely what is causing the problem ...

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

[Greg Guarino]

Sawdust, huh? That could be. I use their "vise-grip" style clamp, and I
clamp it pretty hard, but I may not blow out the dust completely,
especially between adjacent holes. I'll give that a try. Thanks.

[Gordon Shumway]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 15:24:19 -0400, Greg Guarino <gdgu...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Are you drilling the complete hole in one pass? Are you going part
way in and then pulling the bit back out to clear the debris and then
continuing the drilling? If you are drilling the complete hole in one
pass without clearing the debris that could be part of the problem...
especially in hard wood.

Are you sure your fixture is securely clamped to the work? If not
that could be contributing to the problem too.

If it isn't either one of those situations it's gotta be gremlins.

[Puckdropper at dot]

Greg Guarino <gdgu...@gmail.com> wrote in

news:k0u2su$212$1...@dont-email.me:

I'm a novice to the Kreg jig as well, and just figured it was the
"nature of the beast." The dozen and a half I drilled for my last
project cleaned up really nicely with some 220 grit paper in a palm
sander.

Maybe a few of the tricks that work for other things would help here.
Tape, perhaps? Or maybe a thin piece of wood placed over the place
where you're drilling so the ragged edge occurs on the piece rather than
the work piece?

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

[SonomaProducts.com]

If I ever use pocket hole s even inside a cabinet, I'd like them to be a little neater.

Good form would dictate that pocket holes are only on the back side of face frames and other non-visible locations of cabinets. They do sell the plugs but that is kind of cheesy and you should just use a better joint.

I did use them on to connect the upper bookshelf sides, down to the counter top of lower cabs on some built-ins. I considered plugs but just ended up covering them with some thin trim that looks like some perfectly natural interior base molding.

[-MIKE-]

I agree... even with plugs, these are something not to be seen.
I used them on the outer surface of the cabinet in my bathroom(s)
remodel but they are invisible, because that surface is painted. Point
being, it's not really something to worry about since they are either on
unseen surfaces or the fuzz will be sanded off during paint prep.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

[John Grossbohlin]

"SonomaProducts.com" <bwx...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:28c4546b-b010-47f5...@googlegroups.com...

I cannot recall ever using them where I was worried about the looks of the
hole edges... either it was rough work where I didn't care period, or it was
concealed by later work. If appearance matters I use mortise and tenon or
handcut dovetails... To some degree I have lately used corrugated fasteners
where I formerly would have used Kreg screws... keep things together to
assist in assembly and/or hold hidden pieces together while the glue holding
plywood skins dried. But that's me...

John

[Greg Guarino]

On Aug 20, 5:24 pm, Gordon Shumway <Rho...@Planet.Melmac> wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 15:24:19 -0400, Greg Guarino <gdguar...@gmail.com>

> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >I'm a Kreg novice. I've now used the system for 2 projects and a couple
> >of small utility shelves. It's very convenient. But the holes,
> >especially in solid wood, don't drill cleanly. Specifically, the
> >left-hand edge of each hole (that's the side that the drill bit cutting
> >edge would be "emerging" from, as opposed to the side that the bit edge
> >would enter the wood) comes out raggedy-looking. Here's a photo, which
> >is not terribly detailed:
>

> >http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/7815429234/sizes/h/in/photostr...

>
> >I cleaned them up a bit with a utility knife before I took the photo.
> >They end up with thin "fingers" of wood over the hole at the left edge.
> >If I ever use pocket hole s even inside a cabinet, I'd like them to be a
> >little neater.
>
> >These holes aren't going to show; this is a "frame" to hide the ugly
> >plaster hole left by the guys who put a through-the-wall air conditioner
> >in my Mom's house. In this case, the wood is maple. But it did the same
> >sort of thing in pine. I think I used a cordless drill this time, but
> >used a corded one (higher rpm, I think) with similar results on the last
> >project.
>
> >I will add the tally on this bit is only maybe 100 holes. Any ideas?
>
> Are you drilling the complete hole in one pass?  Are you going part
> way in and then pulling the bit back out to clear the debris and then
> continuing the drilling?

That's how I do it. It doesn't really seem possible to do it in one
pass.

If you are drilling the complete hole in one
> pass without clearing the debris that could be part of the problem...
> especially in hard wood.
>
> Are you sure your fixture is securely clamped to the work?  If not
> that could be contributing to the problem too.

Seems secure. My tendency is to err on the side of overtightening
things.

[Dave Balderstone]

In article <dca538ledprabbtg7...@4ax.com>, Gordon Shumway

<Rho...@Planet.Melmac> wrote:

> Are you drilling the complete hole in one pass? Are you going part
> way in and then pulling the bit back out to clear the debris and then
> continuing the drilling? If you are drilling the complete hole in one
> pass without clearing the debris that could be part of the problem...
> especially in hard wood.

That's my experience. You do need to retract and clear.

--
Woodworking and more at <http://www.woodenwabbits.com>

[-MIKE-]

On 8/21/12 12:00 AM, Dave Balderstone wrote:
> In article <dca538ledprabbtg7...@4ax.com>, Gordon Shumway
> <Rho...@Planet.Melmac> wrote:
>
>> Are you drilling the complete hole in one pass? Are you going part
>> way in and then pulling the bit back out to clear the debris and then
>> continuing the drilling? If you are drilling the complete hole in one
>> pass without clearing the debris that could be part of the problem...
>> especially in hard wood.
>
> That's my experience. You do need to retract and clear.
>

If you set up a shop-vac on this thing, it'll take care of that.
If anyone is looking to get into pocket hole joinery, spend the extra
bucks on the dust collection attachments or rig something up at home.
It makes all the difference in the world.

[Dave Balderstone]

In article <k0v5nl$qiq$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, -MIKE-

<mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote:

> If you set up a shop-vac on this thing, it'll take care of that.
> If anyone is looking to get into pocket hole joinery, spend the extra
> bucks on the dust collection attachments or rig something up at home.
> It makes all the difference in the world.

I have the attachment, but in my experience it's ineffective, the hose
attachment is badly positioned, and honestly, I don't need the
additional noise. A quick swoosh with a bench brush works faster,
cleaner, and quieter.

[-MIKE-]

It must be a bad design, because when I simply hold my vac against the
ports of the jig, it clears out most of the muck from the bit/hole....
at least enough to keep me from having to re-plunge the bit several
times to make a clean hole.

I'm curious how a bench brush clear debris from the hole while drilling,
allowing you to drill a clean hole in one pass? :-)

[dadiOH]

Any rotating cutter will tend to tear/lift/fuzz the grain on the exit side
especially when cutting cross grain. The only way to avoid it is to
completely back up the edge...think router and edge grain where you use a
sacrificial block.

You can mitigate it to a greater or lesser extent by toughening the wood
surface where it is going to tear or fuzz. On a saw, masking tape helps a
bit, not likely to help in your case. You can also score it. For you, the
easiest/best(?) way would to spray on a coat of lacquer and let it dry well
before drilling. Hardly worth the bother given the ease of knocking off the
fuzz with sandpaper if it bothers you.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

[Swingman]

On 8/21/2012 9:42 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> t must be a bad design, because when I simply hold my vac against the
> ports of the jig, it clears out most of the muck from the bit/hole....
> at least enough to keep me from having to re-plunge the bit several
> times to make a clean hole.

I've drilled literally thousands of pocket holes in cabinet face frames
the past ten plus years, and since I started using my Festool CT22E dust
extractor attached to the Kreg Jig Master system dust port a few of
years back, I have not seen a speck of drill sawdust when drilling
pocket screw holes ... I mean 99.99 non-existent.

BTW, although I have a spare drill bit, it remains unused. IOW, I've
drilled all those holes with the same drill bit I got with my initial
Kreg jig about 2000, and it still cuts as cleanly as it did on day one.

As far as the original post, and once again for the record, the grain of
the wood is IME biggest part of the OP's issue with tear out on the exit
side of the cutting edge of the bit ...usually most prominent when
drilling into any flat sawn faces at an angle.

[Pat Barber]

1. Use a good 3/8 "corded" drill, battery drills just don't spin
up fast enough for a clean hole.
2. Have a good sharp bit.
3. Cross grain will cause a little fuzzy edges at times.
4. Use the dust collector if your model supports it.

Your picture appears to be white pine which is tough to get
a good sharp edge on.

[Leon]

I have to say that with my Kreg PH jig hooked up to the Festool vac
hardly a spec of dust gets free. You must be doing something wrong.

[Leon]

On 8/21/2012 12:57 PM, Pat Barber wrote:
> 1. Use a good 3/8 "corded" drill, battery drills just don't spin
> up fast enough for a clean hole.

Normally I would agree but the T-15 Festool drill works well, as good as
my stand by DeWalt with a tail with no noticeable speed deterioration
under load.

[-MIKE-]

On 8/21/12 12:57 PM, Pat Barber wrote:
> 1. Use a good 3/8 "corded" drill, battery drills just don't spin
> up fast enough for a clean hole.
> 2. Have a good sharp bit.
> 3. Cross grain will cause a little fuzzy edges at times.
> 4. Use the dust collector if your model supports it.
>
> Your picture appears to be white pine which is tough to get
> a good sharp edge on.
>

Good advice except it depends on the cordless drill.
I have 4 cordless drills. 2 aren't fast enough, 2 are plenty fast enough.

[Han]

Swingman <k...@nospam.com> wrote in
news:G_udncz-G9EjI67N...@giganews.com:

I have a Kreg jig setup from some 10 years ago or so. It came without a
dust port. Does the dustport fit on that? Because the dust is one of
the few drawbacks to the jig's proper functioning.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

[Puckdropper at dot]

Han <nob...@nospam.not> wrote in news:XnsA0B6A123F634Cikkezelf@
207.246.207.163:

>
> I have a Kreg jig setup from some 10 years ago or so. It came without a
> dust port. Does the dustport fit on that? Because the dust is one of
> the few drawbacks to the jig's proper functioning.
>

Looking at the one that came with mine, it's a square piece with a moulding
for a round hose. I haven't tried it, but it looks to fit on the waste
side of the jig and simply hold the hose in place while it sucks the dust
away.

You could probably make one out of wood with little difficulty.

[Han]

Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in
news:5033fd58$0$17979$c3e8da3$26f9...@news.astraweb.com:

OK, I'll look into it soonish. I've been sick with whooping cough,
sapping my energies at anything more tiring than typing, plus I have 2
projects going and I need to reorganize my workshop, but right after that
...

[Swingman]

On 8/21/2012 2:50 PM, Han wrote:
> I have a Kreg jig setup from some 10 years ago or so. It came without a
> dust port. Does the dustport fit on that? Because the dust is one of
> the few drawbacks to the jig's proper functioning.

Actually, IIRC, I gave my old Kreg Jig setup from that era to someone on
the wRec ... don't even recall who I shipped it to, or if they're still
posting?

The old one had the clamp on the opposite side from the user, the one I
have now has the clamp handle on the user side:

https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopJigsFixturesMethods#5779253468866373122

I have no idea which model it is, or if it has been superseded.

I used the old one with a regular shop vac and don't recall the dust
collection being all the notable.

With the one pictured in the link above, and the Festool dust extractor,
the dust collection can only be described as awesome.

I attribute most of that, rightly or wrongly, to the Festool's highly
efficient suckage ...

[Greg Guarino]

On Aug 21, 1:18 am, -MIKE- <m...@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote:
> On 8/21/12 12:00 AM, Dave Balderstone wrote:
>

> > In article <dca538ledprabbtg765gjq02ss3dbad...@4ax.com>, Gordon Shumway

> > <Rho...@Planet.Melmac> wrote:
>
> >> Are you drilling the complete hole in one pass?  Are you going part
> >> way in and then pulling the bit back out to clear the debris and then
> >> continuing the drilling?  If you are drilling the complete hole in one
> >> pass without clearing the debris that could be part of the problem...
> >> especially in hard wood.
>
> > That's my experience. You do need to retract and clear.
>
> If you set up a shop-vac on this thing, it'll take care of that.
> If anyone is looking to get into pocket hole joinery, spend the extra
> bucks on the dust collection attachments or rig something up at home.
> It makes all the difference in the world.

Ah. I should have made clear that I have the Kreg Jr. K3 jig, not the
larger system. I do have their face clamp, which keeps it nice and
steady.

[Dave Balderstone]

In article
<f212c306-6dc6-407d...@z4g2000vby.googlegroups.com>,

Greg Guarino <gdgu...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Ah. I should have made clear that I have the Kreg Jr. K3 jig, not the
> larger system. I do have their face clamp, which keeps it nice and
> steady.

Make sure the bit is spinning FAST.

[Han]

Swingman <k...@nospam.com> wrote in
news:BMCdnROQPovDlKnN...@giganews.com:

Thanks, Karl!

[Dave]

On Tue, 21 Aug 2012 17:19:09 -0500, Swingman <k...@nospam.com> wrote:

Karl, didn't you say you were going to buy a pair of the pock-it hole
clamps? Have you received them and used them yet? I was wondering how
useful they are?
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=30675&site=ROCKLER

[Swingman]

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups=#!topic/rec.woodworking/sTUwNubJ8R4

[Greg Guarino]

I bought a pair, which arrived slightly after I built the "frame" I
mentioned in the OP. I haven't tried them yet, but they hang from the
wall nicely in the pocket-holes I drilled in a piece of scrap wood. :)

I am curious about the quick-release mechanism, and whether it makes the
threads inside less able to hold tightly. I'll try to test it when I get
a chance.

[Pat Barber]

On 8/21/2012 11:58 AM, -MIKE- wrote:

> Good advice except it depends on the cordless drill.
> I have 4 cordless drills. 2 aren't fast enough, 2 are plenty fast enough.
>
>

At one point, the Kreg site made a statement that the corded drill is
the preferred tool for making holes. I have always used my 3/8 Makita
with excellent results. I have used my Makita cordless with "similar"
but not as good results.

In a little training session at the spring
woodworking show in Charlotte, the Kreg rep used
a cordless drill with pretty damn good results.

Your mileage and holes may be different with any drill.

[-MIKE-]

On 8/23/12 12:41 PM, Pat Barber wrote:
> On 8/21/2012 11:58 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>
>> Good advice except it depends on the cordless drill.
>> I have 4 cordless drills. 2 aren't fast enough, 2 are plenty fast
>> enough.
>>
>
> At one point, the Kreg site made a statement that the corded drill is
> the preferred tool for making holes. I have always used my 3/8 Makita
> with excellent results. I have used my Makita cordless with "similar"
> but not as good results.
>

I'm sure they do recommend corded drills. Until very recently, most
cordless drills were much slower. They also slowed down as the batteries
got weaker. So even if they were fast enough at the start, they weren't
fast enough for half your holes.

LIon batteries don't slow down, they just stop, so that problem is
fading away (pun).

[kayl...@aol.com]

It appears that this is happening on the holes that go against the grain.
This would indicate either a loose fit of the bit to the guide hole, a dull
bit, or the wrong type of bit. Every tool has limitations. It seems that the
holes that are drilled with the grain are very clean. ????
Just my two cents.

[-MIKE-]

That's the same in any boring situation.
The direction of the grain will cause that with any other drilling.
Sometimes, even with a new Kreg bit and new jig, you can get that.
Different woods react differently.

[Martin Eastburn]

Lion batteries can't handle heat. e.g. when the shop gets hot,
the battery is failing. They are great in room temp places.

I got a wrench and a screwdriver / allen wrench unit. The wrench
was a nice socket set type - that died in the summer or the winter.

I think the heat broke the seal and the cold finished it off. The other
wrench was in the house and gets use now and then.

Martin

[-MIKE-]

On 8/24/12 9:33 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
> Lion batteries can't handle heat. e.g. when the shop gets hot,
> the battery is failing. They are great in room temp places.
>

How freakin hot is your shop?
I'm pretty sure ambient temperature has to get well over 120 degrees
before it affects performance.

[Greg Guarino]

On Aug 21, 1:57 pm, Pat Barber <mboceans...@att.net> wrote:
> 1. Use a good 3/8 "corded" drill, battery drills just don't spin
>     up fast enough for a clean hole.
> 2. Have a good sharp bit.
> 3. Cross grain will cause a little fuzzy edges at times.
> 4. Use the dust collector if your model supports it.
>
> Your picture appears to be white pine which is tough to get
> a good sharp edge on.

It's maple, actually. But I had similar results in pine.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 22:43:38 -0500, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote:

>On 8/24/12 9:33 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
>> Lion batteries can't handle heat. e.g. when the shop gets hot,
>> the battery is failing. They are great in room temp places.
>>
>
>How freakin hot is your shop?
>I'm pretty sure ambient temperature has to get well over 120 degrees
>before it affects performance.

Any heat is bad for batteries. Chemical processes go something like the
square of the temperature, doubling every 10C. I always keep them in the
house during the summer. My garage (and attic where most of my tools are) can
*easily* get to 120F in the summer. It'll be much nicer in the basement of
the new place. ;-)

[-MIKE-]

I'm pretty sure he didn't mean storage, maybe he did. In any case, like
you pointed out, heat like that is going to effect any battery. I've
been working with battery powered tools, and audio/video equipment for
30 years and I've been through most of the evolution and had a lot of
experience with every generation/technology. I'll take LiIon over any of
them, up until this point. Whatever is down the creek will probably be
better.

Every time a newer battery chemistry comes out, there are naysayers and
they complain about this, that, and the other, when in fact, the new
stuff is always better, almost without exception.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 23:34:47 -0500, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote:

>On 8/24/12 11:17 PM, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>> On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 22:43:38 -0500, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/24/12 9:33 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
>>>> Lion batteries can't handle heat. e.g. when the shop gets hot,
>>>> the battery is failing. They are great in room temp places.
>>>>
>>>
>>> How freakin hot is your shop?
>>> I'm pretty sure ambient temperature has to get well over 120 degrees
>>> before it affects performance.
>>
>> Any heat is bad for batteries. Chemical processes go something like the
>> square of the temperature, doubling every 10C. I always keep them in the
>> house during the summer. My garage (and attic where most of my tools are) can
>> *easily* get to 120F in the summer. It'll be much nicer in the basement of
>> the new place. ;-)
>>
>
>I'm pretty sure he didn't mean storage, maybe he did. In any case, like
>you pointed out, heat like that is going to effect any battery. I've
>been working with battery powered tools, and audio/video equipment for
>30 years and I've been through most of the evolution and had a lot of
>experience with every generation/technology. I'll take LiIon over any of
>them, up until this point. Whatever is down the creek will probably be
>better.

For many tasks LiIon is the best, though NiCd still has its place.

>Every time a newer battery chemistry comes out, there are naysayers and
>they complain about this, that, and the other, when in fact, the new
>stuff is always better, almost without exception.

When it first appears, not so much. LiIon (which isn't just one "technology")
certainly had its teething pains. NiMH looked like a sure winner but today
its only real advantage is its "greeness" (nickel is about as benign as you
can get).

[-MIKE-]

On 8/25/12 12:16 PM, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 23:34:47 -0500, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote:
>
>> On 8/24/12 11:17 PM, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>> On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 22:43:38 -0500, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 8/24/12 9:33 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
>>>>> Lion batteries can't handle heat. e.g. when the shop gets hot,
>>>>> the battery is failing. They are great in room temp places.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How freakin hot is your shop?
>>>> I'm pretty sure ambient temperature has to get well over 120 degrees
>>>> before it affects performance.
>>>
>>> Any heat is bad for batteries. Chemical processes go something like the
>>> square of the temperature, doubling every 10C. I always keep them in the
>>> house during the summer. My garage (and attic where most of my tools are) can
>>> *easily* get to 120F in the summer. It'll be much nicer in the basement of
>>> the new place. ;-)
>>>
>>
>> I'm pretty sure he didn't mean storage, maybe he did. In any case, like
>> you pointed out, heat like that is going to effect any battery. I've
>> been working with battery powered tools, and audio/video equipment for
>> 30 years and I've been through most of the evolution and had a lot of
>> experience with every generation/technology. I'll take LiIon over any of
>> them, up until this point. Whatever is down the creek will probably be
>> better.
>
> For many tasks LiIon is the best, though NiCd still has its place.
>

Not for me. NiCad was better than the previous generation of batteries,
but just barely. NiCads couldn't go away fast enough in my book. I can't
think of a single use for which I would prefer NiCad batteries... except
maybe ballast under my buffing wheel. :-)

[Han]

-MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote in
news:k1b252$8p9$1...@speranza.aioe.org:

Sometimes it is the execution of the technology. I had a NiCad 9.6V
battery-driven Sears (yeah, I know) drill/driver (973.274960) that
couldn't hold a charge. I had the 2 sets of batteries rebuilt by
Primecell in March '11, and now it holds charge really fine. The old
charger works with them. Not an especially fast high powered drill, but
now the batteries work fine. It was cheaper (but maybe not that much)
than buying a new drill.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

NiCd works better for appliances that need a very large current (NiCd has a
low series resistance and won't go bang). NiCd is probably better for
cordless saws, for this reason. Drills are certainly within the scope of
LiIon, though.

NiCds aren't heavy enough for ballast. You need lead-acid batteries, for that
application. ;-)

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

Lookign at what they want for rebuilds now, I don't think they are cheaper
than buying new tools. :-(

[Han]

"k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote in
news:kkri38dplsr7un7om...@4ax.com:

I believe this was March 2010. I now have superior batteries.

[-MIKE-]

On 8/25/12 7:32 PM, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
> NiCds aren't heavy enough for ballast. You need lead-acid batteries, for that
> application. ;-)
>

Lead Acid is one battery that is the exception to my rule that the next
gen is always better.... sort of.....

At my last "real" job, I managed and maintained all the audio/video
production gear for a college that taught production. The NiCad batts we
had for video cameras wore out so fast and were so expensive that I had
to come up with a better solution for the students in the field video
prod classes.

After researching, I decided that emergency lighting batteries would
work great. Video cameras run on 12 volts DC, in an operating range
around 10.5-14 volts. These lead acid "brick" batteries would charge up
to 14 volts, had an incredibly high amp-hour capacity for the current
draw of the cameras, and wouldn't develop a "memory."

I wired two of these "bricks" together in small plastic tool boxes. They
would power the cameras for hours at a time and I used simple 12v power
supplies to charge them. I recall that it cost me less to make two of
these double battery tool boxes for less than a single camera battery.
They provided about 20x the power of the camera batts and lasted for years.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 20:44:18 -0500, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote:

>On 8/25/12 7:32 PM, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>> NiCds aren't heavy enough for ballast. You need lead-acid batteries, for that
>> application. ;-)
>>
>
>Lead Acid is one battery that is the exception to my rule that the next
>gen is always better.... sort of.....
>
>At my last "real" job, I managed and maintained all the audio/video
>production gear for a college that taught production. The NiCad batts we
>had for video cameras wore out so fast and were so expensive that I had
>to come up with a better solution for the students in the field video
>prod classes.
>
>After researching, I decided that emergency lighting batteries would
>work great. Video cameras run on 12 volts DC, in an operating range
>around 10.5-14 volts. These lead acid "brick" batteries would charge up
>to 14 volts, had an incredibly high amp-hour capacity for the current
>draw of the cameras, and wouldn't develop a "memory."

They're terrible if you discharge them completely, though. Lead-acid
batteries have to be cared for like a newborn baby. They're a natural for car
starters or emergency lighting, for pretty much everything else they're sub
optimum. I did design some SLACs into a mainframe, a little over 20 years
ago (stored crypto keys with power off) but they weren't without problems.
LiIon would have been a much better solution today.

The "memory" problem isn't. It hasn't been an issue with NiCds for at *least*
thirty years, probably forty. Over-charging or reverse-charging (during
discharge) is what kills NiCds.

>I wired two of these "bricks" together in small plastic tool boxes. They
>would power the cameras for hours at a time and I used simple 12v power
>supplies to charge them. I recall that it cost me less to make two of
>these double battery tool boxes for less than a single camera battery.
>They provided about 20x the power of the camera batts and lasted for years.

As long as they're constantly charged and never fully discharged, lead-acid
batteries will last a long time. A couple of complete discharges and they're
dead. It's rather the opposite of NiCds (there aren't any applications where
they can be interchanged - one or the other is sub-optimum).

[Markem]

On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 20:44:18 -0500, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com>
wrote:

>On 8/25/12 7:32 PM, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>> NiCds aren't heavy enough for ballast. You need lead-acid batteries, for that
>> application. ;-)
>>
>
>Lead Acid is one battery that is the exception to my rule that the next
>gen is always better.... sort of.....
>
>At my last "real" job, I managed and maintained all the audio/video
>production gear for a college that taught production. The NiCad batts we
>had for video cameras wore out so fast and were so expensive that I had
>to come up with a better solution for the students in the field video
>prod classes.
>
>After researching, I decided that emergency lighting batteries would
>work great. Video cameras run on 12 volts DC, in an operating range
>around 10.5-14 volts. These lead acid "brick" batteries would charge up
>to 14 volts, had an incredibly high amp-hour capacity for the current
>draw of the cameras, and wouldn't develop a "memory."
>
>I wired two of these "bricks" together in small plastic tool boxes. They
>would power the cameras for hours at a time and I used simple 12v power
>supplies to charge them. I recall that it cost me less to make two of
>these double battery tool boxes for less than a single camera battery.
>They provided about 20x the power of the camera batts and lasted for years.

Until they short out agains't a Field production audio mixer, this was
a fix I participated in when working at Shure Brothers many years ago.

The mixer was general toasted.

[-MIKE-]

They were never fully discharged... not even close. They couldn't be,
since the voltage operating range of the equipment was so high. That's
one of the things that made them perfect, and much, much better than the
ni-cads, for this particular application.

I don't know at what voltage those emergency lights operate, nor how far
down they would drain those lead acid cricks. But the equipment I used
them to power shuts off due to low power long before the batteries were
ever in danger.

[-MIKE-]

On 8/26/12 9:40 AM, Markem wrote:
>> I wired two of these "bricks" together in small plastic tool boxes. They
>> would power the cameras for hours at a time and I used simple 12v power
>> supplies to charge them. I recall that it cost me less to make two of
>> these double battery tool boxes for less than a single camera battery.
>> They provided about 20x the power of the camera batts and lasted for years.
>
> Until they short out agains't a Field production audio mixer, this was
> a fix I participated in when working at Shure Brothers many years ago.
>
> The mixer was general toasted.
>

I generally wouldn't send batteries out to power equipment they
outweighed by five fold. :-) I sent them out with cameras that were
much heavier.

But I'm curious about how this can happen, if you care to explain what
happened in your situation. Are you saying the the battery terminals
shorted against the mixer's housing? Or that there was a short in the
wiring. Most of our professional and even pro-sumer field gear had
internal fusing to protect against current overloads or shorts.

[Markem]

On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 11:30:12 -0500, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com>
wrote:

>On 8/26/12 9:40 AM, Markem wrote:
>>> I wired two of these "bricks" together in small plastic tool boxes. They
>>> would power the cameras for hours at a time and I used simple 12v power
>>> supplies to charge them. I recall that it cost me less to make two of
>>> these double battery tool boxes for less than a single camera battery.
>>> They provided about 20x the power of the camera batts and lasted for years.
>>
>> Until they short out agains't a Field production audio mixer, this was
>> a fix I participated in when working at Shure Brothers many years ago.
>>
>> The mixer was general toasted.
>>
>
>I generally wouldn't send batteries out to power equipment they
>outweighed by five fold. :-) I sent them out with cameras that were
>much heavier.
>
>But I'm curious about how this can happen, if you care to explain what
>happened in your situation. Are you saying the the battery terminals
>shorted against the mixer's housing? Or that there was a short in the
>wiring. Most of our professional and even pro-sumer field gear had
>internal fusing to protect against current overloads or shorts.

Primary problem was draining the battery when it shorted out agains't
the mixers frame, but occasionally it fried the mixer, solution was to
put a fuse from the external power jack so it would blow and not drain
the battery. This was one of the changes from Shures FP-32 to FP-33.

Mark

[-MIKE-]

I put the batteries in a plastic tool box with an in-line fuse to the
4-pin xlr power jack.
I only remember one time having a fuse blow and I never could get a
straight answer from the student about what precipitated it. I later
discovered a power cable with a slice half way through it. I suspect
whatever made the cut had shorted two wires in the cable.

BTW, we used a bunch of Shure 4-ch mono mixers. I forget the model
number (M267?) but they were probably late 80's models with the big analog
needle VU and big round knobs on the front. Those things were workhorses
and stood up to a lot of abuse. Easy to repair, too.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

As long as they don't do anything stupid when the voltage goes too low for
operation, that's a good plan. SLACs are actually great technology as long as
you treat them right. They're heavy and not very dense, though.

>I don't know at what voltage those emergency lights operate, nor how far
>down they would drain those lead acid cricks. But the equipment I used
>them to power shuts off due to low power long before the batteries were
>ever in danger.

Emergency lights often run them right down into the ground. The idea is that
they're only used for emergencies. ;-) The reason for lead-acid technology,
here is their float charge capability. They'll last years without
maintenance. Only LiIon is starting to approach that now.

[-MIKE-]

On 8/26/12 3:53 PM, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 11:11:32 -0500, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote:
>>> As long as they're constantly charged and never fully discharged, lead-acid
>>> batteries will last a long time. A couple of complete discharges and they're
>>> dead. It's rather the opposite of NiCds (there aren't any applications where
>>> they can be interchanged - one or the other is sub-optimum).
>>>
>>
>> They were never fully discharged... not even close. They couldn't be,
>> since the voltage operating range of the equipment was so high. That's
>> one of the things that made them perfect, and much, much better than the
>> ni-cads, for this particular application.
>
> As long as they don't do anything stupid when the voltage goes too low for
> operation, that's a good plan.

I don't see how that statement wouldn't apply to any battery.

> SLACs are actually great technology as long as
> you treat them right. They're heavy and not very dense, though.
>
>> I don't know at what voltage those emergency lights operate, nor how far
>> down they would drain those lead acid cricks. But the equipment I used
>> them to power shuts off due to low power long before the batteries were
>> ever in danger.
>
> Emergency lights often run them right down into the ground. The idea is that
> they're only used for emergencies. ;-) The reason for lead-acid technology,
> here is their float charge capability. They'll last years without
> maintenance. Only LiIon is starting to approach that now.
>

That might be one reason they lasted so long for our particular use.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 16:15:36 -0500, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote:

>On 8/26/12 3:53 PM, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>> On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 11:11:32 -0500, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote:
>>>> As long as they're constantly charged and never fully discharged, lead-acid
>>>> batteries will last a long time. A couple of complete discharges and they're
>>>> dead. It's rather the opposite of NiCds (there aren't any applications where
>>>> they can be interchanged - one or the other is sub-optimum).
>>>>
>>>
>>> They were never fully discharged... not even close. They couldn't be,
>>> since the voltage operating range of the equipment was so high. That's
>>> one of the things that made them perfect, and much, much better than the
>>> ni-cads, for this particular application.
>>
>> As long as they don't do anything stupid when the voltage goes too low for
>> operation, that's a good plan.
>
>I don't see how that statement wouldn't apply to any battery.

NiCds don't mind being run right down to zero, as long as the individual cells
aren't reverse-charged in the process. IOW, a single-cell flashlight won't be
damaged at all by being left on until it's dead. A multi-cell battery will
only be harmed if the cells are badly matched. Lead-acids care a *lot*.

>> SLACs are actually great technology as long as
>> you treat them right. They're heavy and not very dense, though.
>>
>>> I don't know at what voltage those emergency lights operate, nor how far
>>> down they would drain those lead acid cricks. But the equipment I used
>>> them to power shuts off due to low power long before the batteries were
>>> ever in danger.
>>
>> Emergency lights often run them right down into the ground. The idea is that
>> they're only used for emergencies. ;-) The reason for lead-acid technology,
>> here is their float charge capability. They'll last years without
>> maintenance. Only LiIon is starting to approach that now.
>>
>
>That might be one reason they lasted so long for our particular use.

Exactly. As long as they aren't run down below about 50% and are otherwise
kept charged (on a charger designed for the purpose) they'll last many years.
Ten years isn't unusual. The thing that kills car batteries is the heat under
the hood. Even then, in the North it's not unusual to have a car battery last
eight years.

[Markem]

On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 12:37:00 -0500, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com>

I remember those I believe they still make them though it has been 16
years since I was in Shures employ. Fixed a lot of them when I worked
in the production facility. Though I started out fixing the Home
Theater Surround systems, but I fixed every piece of equipment that
they manufactured in the mid 80's through about 90 when I moved to
R&D. And you got the model number correct.

Mark

[Doug Winterburn]

About two years here in the Arizona desert.


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

[-MIKE-]

On 8/26/12 5:30 PM, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 16:15:36 -0500, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote:
>
>> On 8/26/12 3:53 PM, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>> On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 11:11:32 -0500, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote:
>>>>> As long as they're constantly charged and never fully discharged, lead-acid
>>>>> batteries will last a long time. A couple of complete discharges and they're
>>>>> dead. It's rather the opposite of NiCds (there aren't any applications where
>>>>> they can be interchanged - one or the other is sub-optimum).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> They were never fully discharged... not even close. They couldn't be,
>>>> since the voltage operating range of the equipment was so high. That's
>>>> one of the things that made them perfect, and much, much better than the
>>>> ni-cads, for this particular application.
>>>
>>> As long as they don't do anything stupid when the voltage goes too low for
>>> operation, that's a good plan.
>>
>> I don't see how that statement wouldn't apply to any battery.
>
> NiCds don't mind being run right down to zero, as long as the individual cells
> aren't reverse-charged in the process. IOW, a single-cell flashlight won't be
> damaged at all by being left on until it's dead. A multi-cell battery will
> only be harmed if the cells are badly matched. Lead-acids care a *lot*.
>

I know that... I was referring to the "As long as they don't do anything
stupid" part.

>>> SLACs are actually great technology as long as
>>> you treat them right. They're heavy and not very dense, though.
>>>
>>>> I don't know at what voltage those emergency lights operate, nor how far
>>>> down they would drain those lead acid cricks. But the equipment I used
>>>> them to power shuts off due to low power long before the batteries were
>>>> ever in danger.
>>>
>>> Emergency lights often run them right down into the ground. The idea is that
>>> they're only used for emergencies. ;-) The reason for lead-acid technology,
>>> here is their float charge capability. They'll last years without
>>> maintenance. Only LiIon is starting to approach that now.
>>>
>>
>> That might be one reason they lasted so long for our particular use.
>
> Exactly. As long as they aren't run down below about 50% and are otherwise
> kept charged (on a charger designed for the purpose) they'll last many years.
> Ten years isn't unusual. The thing that kills car batteries is the heat under
> the hood. Even then, in the North it's not unusual to have a car battery last
> eight years.
>

Being run down that far would be impossible the way we ran them. Like I
said... what, four times, now? :-)...... the gear shuts down way, way,
way before the batteries are anywhere near discharged enough to have an
adverse effect.

[-MIKE-]

On 8/26/12 6:06 PM, Markem wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 12:37:00 -0500, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com>

>>> Primary problem was draining the battery when it shorted out agains't
>>> the mixers frame, but occasionally it fried the mixer, solution was to
>>> put a fuse from the external power jack so it would blow and not drain
>>> the battery. This was one of the changes from Shures FP-32 to FP-33.
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>
>> I put the batteries in a plastic tool box with an in-line fuse to the
>> 4-pin xlr power jack.
>> I only remember one time having a fuse blow and I never could get a
>> straight answer from the student about what precipitated it. I later
>> discovered a power cable with a slice half way through it. I suspect
>> whatever made the cut had shorted two wires in the cable.
>>
>> BTW, we used a bunch of Shure 4-ch mono mixers. I forget the model
>> number (M267?) but they were probably late 80's models with the big analog
>> needle VU and big round knobs on the front. Those things were workhorses
>> and stood up to a lot of abuse. Easy to repair, too.
>
> I remember those I believe they still make them though it has been 16
> years since I was in Shures employ. Fixed a lot of them when I worked
> in the production facility. Though I started out fixing the Home
> Theater Surround systems, but I fixed every piece of equipment that
> they manufactured in the mid 80's through about 90 when I moved to
> R&D. And you got the model number correct.
>
> Mark
>

You guys made great stuff... great quality, tough, dependable, easy to
repair/modify. Shure was always at the top of the list for new gear
acquisitions. Shure and Sony never let down.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 19:11:31 -0500, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote:

>On 8/26/12 5:30 PM, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>> On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 16:15:36 -0500, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/26/12 3:53 PM, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 11:11:32 -0500, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote:
>>>>>> As long as they're constantly charged and never fully discharged, lead-acid
>>>>>> batteries will last a long time. A couple of complete discharges and they're
>>>>>> dead. It's rather the opposite of NiCds (there aren't any applications where
>>>>>> they can be interchanged - one or the other is sub-optimum).
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> They were never fully discharged... not even close. They couldn't be,
>>>>> since the voltage operating range of the equipment was so high. That's
>>>>> one of the things that made them perfect, and much, much better than the
>>>>> ni-cads, for this particular application.
>>>>
>>>> As long as they don't do anything stupid when the voltage goes too low for
>>>> operation, that's a good plan.
>>>
>>> I don't see how that statement wouldn't apply to any battery.
>>
>> NiCds don't mind being run right down to zero, as long as the individual cells
>> aren't reverse-charged in the process. IOW, a single-cell flashlight won't be
>> damaged at all by being left on until it's dead. A multi-cell battery will
>> only be harmed if the cells are badly matched. Lead-acids care a *lot*.
>>
>
>I know that... I was referring to the "As long as they don't do anything
>stupid" part.

Well, your camera wasn't intended to use Pb batteries and I've seen many
designers do "something stupid". It's easy, when batteries are involved.
BTDT. ;-)

>
>>>> SLACs are actually great technology as long as
>>>> you treat them right. They're heavy and not very dense, though.
>>>>
>>>>> I don't know at what voltage those emergency lights operate, nor how far
>>>>> down they would drain those lead acid cricks. But the equipment I used
>>>>> them to power shuts off due to low power long before the batteries were
>>>>> ever in danger.
>>>>
>>>> Emergency lights often run them right down into the ground. The idea is that
>>>> they're only used for emergencies. ;-) The reason for lead-acid technology,
>>>> here is their float charge capability. They'll last years without
>>>> maintenance. Only LiIon is starting to approach that now.
>>>>
>>>
>>> That might be one reason they lasted so long for our particular use.
>>
>> Exactly. As long as they aren't run down below about 50% and are otherwise
>> kept charged (on a charger designed for the purpose) they'll last many years.
>> Ten years isn't unusual. The thing that kills car batteries is the heat under
>> the hood. Even then, in the North it's not unusual to have a car battery last
>> eight years.
>>
>
>Being run down that far would be impossible the way we ran them. Like I
>said... what, four times, now? :-)...... the gear shuts down way, way,
>way before the batteries are anywhere near discharged enough to have an
>adverse effect.

Yes, you've said that. I was making a more general point, though. Not all
equipment behaves nicely when it runs out of power.

[-MIKE-]

On 8/26/12 7:34 PM, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>> I know that... I was referring to the "As long as they don't do anything
>> stupid" part.
>
> Well, your camera wasn't intended to use Pb batteries and I've seen many
> designers do "something stupid". It's easy, when batteries are involved.
> BTDT. ;-)

I really doubt the camera knows the difference between the 12 volts DC
coming from a lead acid battery and a nicad or nickel or lithium, etc.

>> Being run down that far would be impossible the way we ran them. Like I
>> said... what, four times, now? :-)...... the gear shuts down way, way,
>> way before the batteries are anywhere near discharged enough to have an
>> adverse effect.
>
> Yes, you've said that. I was making a more general point, though. Not all
> equipment behaves nicely when it runs out of power.
>

Ours did... every time. It very nicely, just shut right off like good
boys.
You apparently are just looking to have the last word, so go ahead. :-)

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 19:43:38 -0500, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote:

>On 8/26/12 7:34 PM, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>> I know that... I was referring to the "As long as they don't do anything
>>> stupid" part.
>>
>> Well, your camera wasn't intended to use Pb batteries and I've seen many
>> designers do "something stupid". It's easy, when batteries are involved.
>> BTDT. ;-)
>
>I really doubt the camera knows the difference between the 12 volts DC
>coming from a lead acid battery and a nicad or nickel or lithium, etc.

Good grief. The device designer may not have cared if the device ran the
battery into the ground (hence the "doing something stupid" comment). NiCds
don't care (with the restrictions stated elsewhere).

>>> Being run down that far would be impossible the way we ran them. Like I
>>> said... what, four times, now? :-)...... the gear shuts down way, way,
>>> way before the batteries are anywhere near discharged enough to have an
>>> adverse effect.
>>
>> Yes, you've said that. I was making a more general point, though. Not all
>> equipment behaves nicely when it runs out of power.
>>
>
>Ours did... every time. It very nicely, just shut right off like good
>boys.
>You apparently are just looking to have the last word, so go ahead. :-)

Can you read?

[-MIKE-]

I'm wondering the same thing about you. I've said probably 6 times that
the equipment won't allow the batteries to be run down but you keep
bringing it up.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

You're impossible.